The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
PTS Update 15 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
I would bet devs know how bow works and can read. Contrary to you. Both long shots and hawkeye buff bow skills and bow skills only. I was never talking about bow skills in the whole post except the last part where I said 2 skills that could use change. You would actually have to skip 90% of the post to reach your conclusion.
So I would return to the first sentence... devs aren't stupid and dont need numbers to know what I said is true. You would not need the numbers either if you could put one and one together. Something for you to consider.Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 8:10PM2 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
I would bet devs know how bow works and can read. Contrary to you. Both long shots and hawkeye buff bow skills and bow skills only. I was never talking about bow skills in the whole post except the last part where I said 2 skills that could use change. You would actually have to skip 90% of the post to reach your conclusion.
So I would return to the first sentence... devs aren't stupid and dont need numbers to know what I said is true. You would not need the numbers either if you could put one and one together. Something for you to consider.
Ok so first off, the hostility is frankly unseemly but i guess that is your call to make as far as how you choose to respond to suggestions.
Second, while you may want to serve your interest by parsing this piece of damage from this kind of skill and leave out this boost vs that boost etc, i know that a weapon is a "package of things" and that isolating one aspect and chosing to ignore the others is a good way to get a skewed perspective. Simply put, it is not a truth in this game that each "package" provides the same buff to "non-package skills" as every other package so choosing to isolate just that one bitty piece of it to try and show a need for a buff is flawed. Some packages buff their own skills more and some buff larger groups of skills more and so on and so on. So, i did not ignore 90% of your post, i just chose to not let your isolate and disregard when needed approach restrict me in my observations about the damage gains bows get that you chose to leave out.
third, the devs have said on the PTS more times than i care to count that posts backed up by numbers carry more weight so, you can choose to turn that around and toss it back with ire but that is just a truth that apparently you find disagreeable.
oh well, carry on then.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."2 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭I'm not sure if ZOS has kept up with these topics on the forums, but can we get swords and bows fixed?
Sword buffs from Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons. Bow buffs from Hawk Eye and Long Shots. Both are weaker in CP play than Non-CP play when compared to other weapons. The damage buffs are additive to CP rather than multiplied. Perhaps this was part of the balancing, I dunno. But as it is now, the passive buffs for those weapons are gimped by around 25% when a player has a lot of CP, which makes them relatively weaker compared to all the other weapon options.2 -
Br1ckst0n✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »I'm not sure if ZOS has kept up with these topics on the forums, but can we get swords and bows fixed?
Sword buffs from Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons. Bow buffs from Hawk Eye and Long Shots. Both are weaker in CP play than Non-CP play when compared to other weapons. The damage buffs are additive to CP rather than multiplied. Perhaps this was part of the balancing, I dunno. But as it is now, the passive buffs for those weapons are gimped by around 25% when a player has a lot of CP, which makes them relatively weaker compared to all the other weapon options.
They probably did it for server performance. Pretty much affects everything that boosts damage by a percentage amount. The biggest hit take execute abilities as their around 300% bonus damage makes the bonus from cp very small.
I doubt they will change the calculation back to being multiplicative so we would need to see some buffs to the affected skills and passivs to compensate.Offtank of the year 20160 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
I would bet devs know how bow works and can read. Contrary to you. Both long shots and hawkeye buff bow skills and bow skills only. I was never talking about bow skills in the whole post except the last part where I said 2 skills that could use change. You would actually have to skip 90% of the post to reach your conclusion.
So I would return to the first sentence... devs aren't stupid and dont need numbers to know what I said is true. You would not need the numbers either if you could put one and one together. Something for you to consider.
Ok so first off, the hostility is frankly unseemly but i guess that is your call to make as far as how you choose to respond to suggestions.
Second, while you may want to serve your interest by parsing this piece of damage from this kind of skill and leave out this boost vs that boost etc, i know that a weapon is a "package of things" and that isolating one aspect and chosing to ignore the others is a good way to get a skewed perspective. Simply put, it is not a truth in this game that each "package" provides the same buff to "non-package skills" as every other package so choosing to isolate just that one bitty piece of it to try and show a need for a buff is flawed. Some packages buff their own skills more and some buff larger groups of skills more and so on and so on. So, i did not ignore 90% of your post, i just chose to not let your isolate and disregard when needed approach restrict me in my observations about the damage gains bows get that you chose to leave out.
third, the devs have said on the PTS more times than i care to count that posts backed up by numbers carry more weight so, you can choose to turn that around and toss it back with ire but that is just a truth that apparently you find disagreeable.
oh well, carry on then.
You want numbers? There are you numbers (for the record I will assume all CP bonuses additive, all other bonuses additive and CP and other between each other multiplicative)
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn bow. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2057 (1335*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 2715.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6201 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*2715).
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn 2H sword. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2328 (1571*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 3072.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6598 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*3072).
He is dealing 397 more damage per hit.
Now lets assume they both get 30% more damage from CP. 4% more from Warden passive, 8% from Minor Berserk. On top of it the Sword gets 5% from 2H passive and lets assume the math works this way (1.30 * (1 + 0.04 + 0.08 + (0.05 if 2H))).
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 9028
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 10035
2H is dealing 1007 more damage per hit.
Now lets throw in more stuff. Lets get it empowered, lets use Follow Up from 2H skills line, lets slot another warden skill, lets pretend warden still have 6% to physical damage, lets increase weapon damage by slotting dawn breaker and getting buffed by Minor Brutality, lets have someone use spell power cure on us.
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 12352
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 14528
2H is dealing 2176 more damage per hit.
The more I assume the less precise it is going, but lets assume one last time and that all of this damage is the damage that is going to crit for 50% more damage with 55% crit chance on bow and 50% crit chance on 2H.
Cutting dive crit damage on bow is now 18528
Cutting dive crit damage on 2H is now 21792.
2H is dealing 3264 more crit damage per hit.
Now you are critting only half the time on 2H so say the overall damage increase is 25%. You crit more often on bow so the overall damage increase 27.5%
Cutting dive average damage on bow is now 15748
Cutting dive average damage on 2H is now 18160
2H is dealing on average 2412 more crit damage per hit.
(Now try imagine DW with similar damage and passives like 2H but whole new possibility of 12. item slot)
At this point the numbers are some distance from real numbers but everyone should get the point. The more % increases are in the game, the bigger the gap between bow and other weapons are becoming. These values vere designed at least 2 years, maybe even back in beta (where numbers were maybe lower, but the difference could be relatively still the same as now). In all these 2 years I am playing, bow damage impact on nonBow (read carefully here STEVIL) has not changed one bit.
This would obviously be problem for 1H+S and Staff too, except 1h+S defensive potential scales very well with enemy offensive plus get +% to weapon damage. The added 5th slot bonus alone bring them at minimum closer to 2H in raw damage than to bow (by simply using last slot on 1 piece of weapon damage monster mask). Now consider the armor and enchant value from Shield and all the 5/5/2 possibilities.
Staff, while still lacking the 12th item slot like bow gets something even better. Huge amount of offensive and defensive skills that scale with magicka and spell damage, work from almost any range and cherry on top +% to damage from weapon passive. While 2H or DW scenario for staves would still output better damage, magicka capabilities in pve and pvp are balanced around usage of staves. When they feel little weaker or better ZoS jumps in and tweaks some skill they use a lot.
Now for bow skills. The were many buffs that helped here. Which is exactly the problem. You have just 6 bow skills. On one hand you cant properly build yourself around using bow skills and maximizing the passive potential, on the other hand you have to even reach some viable (but hardly good) numbers.
You get passive that scales with range and gives you up to 12% damage boost only to bow abilities. You have to stand ~25m far from enemy to get full effects. Such combat almost does not exists in any relevant situations. In PVE you need to stick close so you get heals and group buffs. At best you can enjoy 4% more damage to your bow skills. In PVP ranged fights dont happen outside of zergs and keep defense, unless you fight ranged opponent and he is not willing to get close fully knowing he could shut nearly 12% of your damage down while losing nothing).
Then there is hawk eye with stacking damage increase per light attack. It is at max 25% and again working only on bow skills. The simplicity of getting this buff means everybody using bow on backbar is getting at least 10-15% for half the uptime anyway while they enjoying anything that boost their damage from front bar, meaning the gap is very small. In PVP you never stack it versus shuffle or dodge rollers and offensive of others does not allow for proper weaving. At best you are running with 10% more damage.
So when you go play PVE and use the stamina template for DPS (because thats the only way to play it) you are using trap that is not getting boosted by bow passives on weapon that has already low base damage and gains less from % (see the first half of the post). Not to forget melee trap is better than ranged and it increases your crit damage and weapon damage by lower numbers than those using different weapons. Same goes for caltrops. Now you have poison injection and volley. You get around 15% more damage from those now (thanks to death of VMA daggers, you may actually finally get more damage from your skills than people that uses bow as backbar), but they will swap to their frontbar where they have more damage and more crit (If I am not mistaken, the damage will affect volley and not PI, but crit will affect both). So now they are dealing on average probably same damage with PI/volley like you do or little less. They however deal more damage with trap and caltrops. Anything damaging they will now cast from frontbar will deal significantly more damage than anything nonBow you cast. Your light and heavy attacks will be better than theirs. Except they get the utility from faster heavy attacks, or AoE heavy attacks, or channeling AoE heavy attacks, or double enchants.
For PVP. Everything you do with nonBow skills will deal significantly less damage. Your ulti is bad and expensive. Your poison injection is same as theirs, but wastes your front bar slot, because you went with different buff weapon (like 2H for rally). You have to use Snipe unless you are warden. Your snipe deals damage around (usually less) damage than crystal frags or dizzy swing. Both of these attacks will CC. One is ranged that procs for more damage and no channel. Second is channeled always like snipe, but gets to hit instantly. You cant do anything else but spam snipe, light attacks and poison injection. You have no combo, you have no ranged CC. Your CC skill is 10m range knockback with disorients that break instantly on any DoT. You have no gap closer to close the distance, unless you have it on the other weapon... then why are you using bow in the first place. You are fighting from range vs mag sorc. They constantly drain your health by using undodgeable curses and their spammable. You cant cast snipe because they spam crushing shock interrupt. You cant CC them because you dont have ranged CC. You need to close the distance, which is harder, slower and more costly for you than any melee build.
Different scenario. You are in melee range. You applied poison injection. Now you can only spam your CC and Snipe. Enemy is not noob and dodge rolls everytime you cast Snipe. You dont deal any damage. They are hitting you with with instant attacks that are procing proc sets. You dont have any targeted proc set, unless you go full DoT and slot fire damage Skoria. You do that, you lost your 5th piece bonus.
Different scenario. You are warden and fight melee warden. You both use same skills. He casts cutting dive, you cast cutting dive. He dealt more damage, thankfully you offset the difference with light attack. He moves to melee range and casts cuttng dive, sub assault and weaves in medium attack. You do the same. He dealt more damage to you while healing more. He CCed you with dawnbreaker from same range as your CC. It is undodgeable, you ate all the damage and had to break free. You CC him back. If you are lucky he broke free too. If not the poison injection broke it with no cost for him.
You are losing by every trade. You need your opponent to make more mistakes than you to offset that. You are not a noob, he is not a noob. You make same mistakes like he did, you are punished by more. You lost.
Ok, this got a little a long. Lets tl;dr this:
You use bow. You deal less damage than everyone else. You are worse in melee fights than everyone else. You are worse in ranged fights than everyone else capable of fighting back. Each patch you are getting better by less than everyone else. You enjoy all the disadvantages, but gain the least from advantages than everyone else.Edited by SodanTok on July 18, 2017 5:16PM5 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
I would bet devs know how bow works and can read. Contrary to you. Both long shots and hawkeye buff bow skills and bow skills only. I was never talking about bow skills in the whole post except the last part where I said 2 skills that could use change. You would actually have to skip 90% of the post to reach your conclusion.
So I would return to the first sentence... devs aren't stupid and dont need numbers to know what I said is true. You would not need the numbers either if you could put one and one together. Something for you to consider.
Ok so first off, the hostility is frankly unseemly but i guess that is your call to make as far as how you choose to respond to suggestions.
Second, while you may want to serve your interest by parsing this piece of damage from this kind of skill and leave out this boost vs that boost etc, i know that a weapon is a "package of things" and that isolating one aspect and chosing to ignore the others is a good way to get a skewed perspective. Simply put, it is not a truth in this game that each "package" provides the same buff to "non-package skills" as every other package so choosing to isolate just that one bitty piece of it to try and show a need for a buff is flawed. Some packages buff their own skills more and some buff larger groups of skills more and so on and so on. So, i did not ignore 90% of your post, i just chose to not let your isolate and disregard when needed approach restrict me in my observations about the damage gains bows get that you chose to leave out.
third, the devs have said on the PTS more times than i care to count that posts backed up by numbers carry more weight so, you can choose to turn that around and toss it back with ire but that is just a truth that apparently you find disagreeable.
oh well, carry on then.
You want numbers? There are you numbers (for the record I will assume all CP bonuses additive, all other bonuses additive and CP and other between each other multiplicative)
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn bow. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2057 (1335*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 2715.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6201 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*2715).
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn 2H sword. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2328 (1571*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 3072.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6598 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*3072).
He is dealing 397 more damage per hit.
Now lets assume they both get 30% more damage from CP. 4% more from Warden passive, 8% from Minor Berserk. On top of it the Sword gets 5% from 2H passive and lets assume the math works this way (1.30 * (1 + 0.04 + 0.08 + (0.05 if 2H))).
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 9028
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 10035
2H is dealing 1007 more damage per hit.
Now lets throw in more stuff. Lets get it empowered, lets use Follow Up from 2H skills line, lets slot another warden skill, lets pretend warden still have 6% to physical damage, lets increase weapon damage by slotting dawn breaker and getting buffed by Minor Brutality, lets have someone use spell power cure on us.
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 12352
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 14528
2H is dealing 2176 more damage per hit.
The more I assume the less precise it is going, but lets assume one last time and that all of this damage is the damage that is going to crit for 50% more damage with 55% crit chance on bow and 50% crit chance on 2H.
Cutting dive crit damage on bow is now 18528
Cutting dive crit damage on 2H is now 21792.
2H is dealing 3264 more crit damage per hit.
Now you are critting only half the time on 2H so say the overall damage increase is 25%. You crit more often on bow so the overall damage increase 27.5%
Cutting dive average damage on bow is now 15748
Cutting dive average damage on 2H is now 18160
2H is dealing on average 2412 more crit damage per hit.
(Now try imagine DW with similar damage and passives like 2H but whole new possibility of 12. item slot)
At this point the numbers are some distance from real numbers but everyone should get the point. The more % increases are in the game, the bigger the gap between bow and other weapons are becoming. These values vere designed at least 2 years, maybe even back in beta (where numbers were maybe lower, but the difference could be relatively still the same as now). In all these 2 years I am playing, bow damage impact on nonBow (read carefully here STEVIL) has not changed one bit.
This would obviously be problem for 1H+S and Staff too, except 1h+S defensive potential scales very well with enemy offensive plus get +% to weapon damage. The added 5th slot bonus alone bring them at minimum closer to 2H in raw damage than to bow (by simply using last slot on 1 piece of weapon damage monster mask). Now consider the armor and enchant value from Shield and all the 5/5/2 possibilities.
Staff, while still lacking the 12th item slot like bow gets something even better. Huge amount of offensive and defensive skills that scale with magicka and spell damage, work from almost any range and cherry on top +% to damage from weapon passive. While 2H or DW scenario for staves would still output better damage, magicka capabilities in pve and pvp are balanced around usage of staves. When they feel little weaker or better ZoS jumps in and tweaks some skill they use a lot.
Now for bow skills. The were many buffs that helped here. Which is exactly the problem. You have just 6 bow skills. On one hand you cant properly build yourself around using bow skills and maximizing the passive potential, on the other hand you have to even reach some viable (but hardly good) numbers.
You get passive that scales with range and gives you up to 12% damage boost only to bow abilities. You have to stand ~25m far from enemy to get full effects. Such combat almost does not exists in any relevant situations. In PVE you need to stick close so you get heals and group buffs. At best you can enjoy 4% more damage to your bow skills. In PVP ranged fights dont happen outside of zergs and keep defense, unless you fight ranged opponent and he is not willing to get close fully knowing he could shut nearly 12% of your damage down while losing nothing).
Then there is hawk eye with stacking damage increase per light attack. It is at max 25% and again working only on bow skills. The simplicity of getting this buff means everybody using bow on backbar is getting at least 10-15% for half the uptime anyway while they enjoying anything that boost their damage from front bar, meaning the gap is very small. In PVP you never stack it versus shuffle or dodge rollers and offensive of others does not allow for proper weaving. At best you are running with 10% more damage.
So when you go play PVE and use the stamina template for DPS (because thats the only way to play it) you are using trap that is not getting boosted by bow passives on weapon that has already low base damage and gains less from % (see the first half of the post). Not to forget melee trap is better than ranged and it increases your crit damage and weapon damage by lower numbers than those using different weapons. Same goes for caltrops. Now you have poison injection and volley. You get around 15% more damage from those now (thanks to death of VMA daggers, you may actually finally get more damage from your skills than people that uses bow as backbar), but they will swap to their frontbar where they have more damage and more crit (If I am not mistaken, the damage will affect volley and not PI, but crit will affect both). So now they are dealing on average probably same damage with PI/volley like you do or little less. They however deal more damage with trap and caltrops. Anything damaging they will now cast from frontbar will deal significantly more damage than anything nonBow you cast. Your light and heavy attacks will be better than theirs. Except they get the utility from faster heavy attacks, or AoE heavy attacks, or channeling AoE heavy attacks, or double enchants.
For PVP. Everything you do with nonBow skills will deal significantly less damage. Your ulti is bad and expensive. Your poison injection is same as theirs, but wastes your front bar slot, because you went with different buff weapon (like 2H for rally). You have to use Snipe unless you are warden. Your snipe deals damage around (usually less) damage than crystal frags or dizzy swing. Both of these attacks will CC. One is ranged that procs for more damage and no channel. Second is channeled always like snipe, but gets to hit instantly. You cant do anything else but spam snipe, light attacks and poison injection. You have no combo, you have no ranged CC. Your CC skill is 10m range knockback with disorients that break instantly on any DoT. You have no gap closer to close the distance, unless you have it on the other weapon... then why are you using bow in the first place. You are fighting from range vs mag sorc. They constantly drain your health by using undodgeable curses and their spammable. You cant cast snipe because they spam crushing shock interrupt. You cant CC them because you dont have ranged CC. You need to close the distance, which is harder, slower and more costly for you than any melee build.
Different scenario. You are in melee range. You applied poison injection. Now you can only spam your CC and Snipe. Enemy is not noob and dodge rolls everytime you cast Snipe. You dont deal any damage. They are hitting you with with instant attacks that are procing proc sets. You dont have any targeted proc set, unless you go full DoT and slot fire damage Skoria. You do that, you lost your 5th piece bonus.
Different scenario. You are warden and fight melee warden. You both use same skills. He casts cutting dive, you cast cutting dive. He dealt more damage, thankfully you offset the difference with light attack. He moves to melee range and casts cuttng dive, sub assault and weaves in medium attack. You do the same. He dealt more damage to you while healing more. He CCed you with dawnbreaker from same range as your CC. It is undodgeable, you ate all the damage and had to break free. You CC him back. If you are lucky he broke free too. If not the poison injection broke it with no cost for him.
You are losing by every trade. You need your opponent to make more mistakes than you to offset that. You are not a noob, he is not a noob. You make same mistakes like he did, you are punished by more. You lost.
Ok, this got a little a long. Lets tl;dr this:
You use bow. You deal less damage than everyone else. You are worse in melee fights than everyone else. You are worse in ranged fights than everyone else capable of fighting back. Each patch you are getting better by less than everyone else. You enjoy all the disadvantages, but gain the least from advantages than everyone else.
Well i must admit your closing was nice, the bit about less damage than anyone who can fight back... that was a clever was to downplay the range thing a bit.
but lets see if you may have an obvious problem in your analysis which depends on basically per-hit calculations.... and it hinges on that whole who can fight back issue... its not the only issue but it is certainly the most obvious.
In my experience, maybe not yours, i can hit more targets more often in more situations with ranged attacks than i can with melee attacks. i can weave in light attacks more often and more easily with ranged attacks than melee attacks.
this is because at times during real not-on-paper-per-hit combat theory, the enemies move and the enemies die and i have to switch to new targets. it is just not always true that i have an enemy right there in melee range to strike with a LA/skill weave. Add in the fact that LA and HA are far more critical now in the sustain-tight environment which promotes more of them and less of the spammed skills (you should maybe check with Bearclaw who emphasized how critical light and heavy attacks are now to DPS) and you get that not only will a bow user get more shots but should be trying for more LA and HA than you may be crediting them in your assessment which hinges so much on spammable class abilities.
Now of course this wont always be the case. i am sure there are tons of bosses who not only stand immobile for long periods of time but who also do not have area circles that force melee types out of range while bow types could keep firing. Obviously this is so strong that it explains why ranged combat is hardly ever used anymore in groups and trials cuz you know melee works just fine and is so much better.
But, clearly not for everyone.
However, let me be very clear on this, I am all for divorcing base weapon damage from non-weapon skills damage. I would be very happy if base weapon damage was the base for weapon skills only and a factor based on level (character or skill either way) replaced it for class skills.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why if you cast any nonBow skill in the game you deal less damage than everyone else.
You can equip resto staff on stam warden and lose 5% crit chance from bow, but gain Major Mending on heavy attacks, undodgeable heavy attacks, large amount of magicka gain from the heavy attacks, heal low health allies for more and restore magicka on block. Yes, you get all of this while dealing same damage with stam skills on stam builds as bow user would, except they get 5% more crit and their light/heavy scale with stam/wp dmg.
Suggestion for you to consider.
When making case to designers about the need for change and choosing an example case, it is not a good idea to claim like "Every weapon in this game in some ways buffs your either defensive or offensive capabilities (or both), only bow does nothing but 5% more crit chance" and then leave out things like the bonus for long range and the bonus to damage for light and heavy attack repeats that bows enjoy. its not like the devs will forget those when looking at your post, so nothing is gained by cutting out the bonuses that don't fit your narrative or claim.
leaving those out along with providing no actual numbers tends to lead some to believe it is a biased, non-factual presentation.
The devs tend to respond more favorably to numbers and facts presented objectively, in my experience.
I would bet devs know how bow works and can read. Contrary to you. Both long shots and hawkeye buff bow skills and bow skills only. I was never talking about bow skills in the whole post except the last part where I said 2 skills that could use change. You would actually have to skip 90% of the post to reach your conclusion.
So I would return to the first sentence... devs aren't stupid and dont need numbers to know what I said is true. You would not need the numbers either if you could put one and one together. Something for you to consider.
Ok so first off, the hostility is frankly unseemly but i guess that is your call to make as far as how you choose to respond to suggestions.
Second, while you may want to serve your interest by parsing this piece of damage from this kind of skill and leave out this boost vs that boost etc, i know that a weapon is a "package of things" and that isolating one aspect and chosing to ignore the others is a good way to get a skewed perspective. Simply put, it is not a truth in this game that each "package" provides the same buff to "non-package skills" as every other package so choosing to isolate just that one bitty piece of it to try and show a need for a buff is flawed. Some packages buff their own skills more and some buff larger groups of skills more and so on and so on. So, i did not ignore 90% of your post, i just chose to not let your isolate and disregard when needed approach restrict me in my observations about the damage gains bows get that you chose to leave out.
third, the devs have said on the PTS more times than i care to count that posts backed up by numbers carry more weight so, you can choose to turn that around and toss it back with ire but that is just a truth that apparently you find disagreeable.
oh well, carry on then.
You want numbers? There are you numbers (for the record I will assume all CP bonuses additive, all other bonuses additive and CP and other between each other multiplicative)
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn bow. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2057 (1335*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 2715.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6201 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*2715).
We have player with 30k stamina holding PTS nirn 2H sword. His damage with 3 weapon glyphs is 2328 (1571*1.15 + 3*174). Boosted by Major Brutality and Medium Armor agility he gets to 3072.
He is casting Cutting Dive. The damage without any bonuses is 6598 (0.106018*30000 + 1.11274*3072).
He is dealing 397 more damage per hit.
Now lets assume they both get 30% more damage from CP. 4% more from Warden passive, 8% from Minor Berserk. On top of it the Sword gets 5% from 2H passive and lets assume the math works this way (1.30 * (1 + 0.04 + 0.08 + (0.05 if 2H))).
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 9028
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 10035
2H is dealing 1007 more damage per hit.
Now lets throw in more stuff. Lets get it empowered, lets use Follow Up from 2H skills line, lets slot another warden skill, lets pretend warden still have 6% to physical damage, lets increase weapon damage by slotting dawn breaker and getting buffed by Minor Brutality, lets have someone use spell power cure on us.
Cutting dive damage on bow is now 12352
Cutting dive damage on 2H is now 14528
2H is dealing 2176 more damage per hit.
The more I assume the less precise it is going, but lets assume one last time and that all of this damage is the damage that is going to crit for 50% more damage with 55% crit chance on bow and 50% crit chance on 2H.
Cutting dive crit damage on bow is now 18528
Cutting dive crit damage on 2H is now 21792.
2H is dealing 3264 more crit damage per hit.
Now you are critting only half the time on 2H so say the overall damage increase is 25%. You crit more often on bow so the overall damage increase 27.5%
Cutting dive average damage on bow is now 15748
Cutting dive average damage on 2H is now 18160
2H is dealing on average 2412 more crit damage per hit.
(Now try imagine DW with similar damage and passives like 2H but whole new possibility of 12. item slot)
At this point the numbers are some distance from real numbers but everyone should get the point. The more % increases are in the game, the bigger the gap between bow and other weapons are becoming. These values vere designed at least 2 years, maybe even back in beta (where numbers were maybe lower, but the difference could be relatively still the same as now). In all these 2 years I am playing, bow damage impact on nonBow (read carefully here STEVIL) has not changed one bit.
This would obviously be problem for 1H+S and Staff too, except 1h+S defensive potential scales very well with enemy offensive plus get +% to weapon damage. The added 5th slot bonus alone bring them at minimum closer to 2H in raw damage than to bow (by simply using last slot on 1 piece of weapon damage monster mask). Now consider the armor and enchant value from Shield and all the 5/5/2 possibilities.
Staff, while still lacking the 12th item slot like bow gets something even better. Huge amount of offensive and defensive skills that scale with magicka and spell damage, work from almost any range and cherry on top +% to damage from weapon passive. While 2H or DW scenario for staves would still output better damage, magicka capabilities in pve and pvp are balanced around usage of staves. When they feel little weaker or better ZoS jumps in and tweaks some skill they use a lot.
Now for bow skills. The were many buffs that helped here. Which is exactly the problem. You have just 6 bow skills. On one hand you cant properly build yourself around using bow skills and maximizing the passive potential, on the other hand you have to even reach some viable (but hardly good) numbers.
You get passive that scales with range and gives you up to 12% damage boost only to bow abilities. You have to stand ~25m far from enemy to get full effects. Such combat almost does not exists in any relevant situations. In PVE you need to stick close so you get heals and group buffs. At best you can enjoy 4% more damage to your bow skills. In PVP ranged fights dont happen outside of zergs and keep defense, unless you fight ranged opponent and he is not willing to get close fully knowing he could shut nearly 12% of your damage down while losing nothing).
Then there is hawk eye with stacking damage increase per light attack. It is at max 25% and again working only on bow skills. The simplicity of getting this buff means everybody using bow on backbar is getting at least 10-15% for half the uptime anyway while they enjoying anything that boost their damage from front bar, meaning the gap is very small. In PVP you never stack it versus shuffle or dodge rollers and offensive of others does not allow for proper weaving. At best you are running with 10% more damage.
So when you go play PVE and use the stamina template for DPS (because thats the only way to play it) you are using trap that is not getting boosted by bow passives on weapon that has already low base damage and gains less from % (see the first half of the post). Not to forget melee trap is better than ranged and it increases your crit damage and weapon damage by lower numbers than those using different weapons. Same goes for caltrops. Now you have poison injection and volley. You get around 15% more damage from those now (thanks to death of VMA daggers, you may actually finally get more damage from your skills than people that uses bow as backbar), but they will swap to their frontbar where they have more damage and more crit (If I am not mistaken, the damage will affect volley and not PI, but crit will affect both). So now they are dealing on average probably same damage with PI/volley like you do or little less. They however deal more damage with trap and caltrops. Anything damaging they will now cast from frontbar will deal significantly more damage than anything nonBow you cast. Your light and heavy attacks will be better than theirs. Except they get the utility from faster heavy attacks, or AoE heavy attacks, or channeling AoE heavy attacks, or double enchants.
For PVP. Everything you do with nonBow skills will deal significantly less damage. Your ulti is bad and expensive. Your poison injection is same as theirs, but wastes your front bar slot, because you went with different buff weapon (like 2H for rally). You have to use Snipe unless you are warden. Your snipe deals damage around (usually less) damage than crystal frags or dizzy swing. Both of these attacks will CC. One is ranged that procs for more damage and no channel. Second is channeled always like snipe, but gets to hit instantly. You cant do anything else but spam snipe, light attacks and poison injection. You have no combo, you have no ranged CC. Your CC skill is 10m range knockback with disorients that break instantly on any DoT. You have no gap closer to close the distance, unless you have it on the other weapon... then why are you using bow in the first place. You are fighting from range vs mag sorc. They constantly drain your health by using undodgeable curses and their spammable. You cant cast snipe because they spam crushing shock interrupt. You cant CC them because you dont have ranged CC. You need to close the distance, which is harder, slower and more costly for you than any melee build.
Different scenario. You are in melee range. You applied poison injection. Now you can only spam your CC and Snipe. Enemy is not noob and dodge rolls everytime you cast Snipe. You dont deal any damage. They are hitting you with with instant attacks that are procing proc sets. You dont have any targeted proc set, unless you go full DoT and slot fire damage Skoria. You do that, you lost your 5th piece bonus.
Different scenario. You are warden and fight melee warden. You both use same skills. He casts cutting dive, you cast cutting dive. He dealt more damage, thankfully you offset the difference with light attack. He moves to melee range and casts cuttng dive, sub assault and weaves in medium attack. You do the same. He dealt more damage to you while healing more. He CCed you with dawnbreaker from same range as your CC. It is undodgeable, you ate all the damage and had to break free. You CC him back. If you are lucky he broke free too. If not the poison injection broke it with no cost for him.
You are losing by every trade. You need your opponent to make more mistakes than you to offset that. You are not a noob, he is not a noob. You make same mistakes like he did, you are punished by more. You lost.
Ok, this got a little a long. Lets tl;dr this:
You use bow. You deal less damage than everyone else. You are worse in melee fights than everyone else. You are worse in ranged fights than everyone else capable of fighting back. Each patch you are getting better by less than everyone else. You enjoy all the disadvantages, but gain the least from advantages than everyone else.
Well i must admit your closing was nice, the bit about less damage than anyone who can fight back... that was a clever was to downplay the range thing a bit.
but lets see if you may have an obvious problem in your analysis which depends on basically per-hit calculations.... and it hinges on that whole who can fight back issue... its not the only issue but it is certainly the most obvious.
In my experience, maybe not yours, i can hit more targets more often in more situations with ranged attacks than i can with melee attacks. i can weave in light attacks more often and more easily with ranged attacks than melee attacks.
this is because at times during real not-on-paper-per-hit combat theory, the enemies move and the enemies die and i have to switch to new targets. it is just not always true that i have an enemy right there in melee range to strike with a LA/skill weave. Add in the fact that LA and HA are far more critical now in the sustain-tight environment which promotes more of them and less of the spammed skills (you should maybe check with Bearclaw who emphasized how critical light and heavy attacks are now to DPS) and you get that not only will a bow user get more shots but should be trying for more LA and HA than you may be crediting them in your assessment which hinges so much on spammable class abilities.
Now of course this wont always be the case. i am sure there are tons of bosses who not only stand immobile for long periods of time but who also do not have area circles that force melee types out of range while bow types could keep firing. Obviously this is so strong that it explains why ranged combat is hardly ever used anymore in groups and trials cuz you know melee works just fine and is so much better.
But, clearly not for everyone.
However, let me be very clear on this, I am all for divorcing base weapon damage from non-weapon skills damage. I would be very happy if base weapon damage was the base for weapon skills only and a factor based on level (character or skill either way) replaced it for class skills.
You very obvious lack of experience with bow in PVP and endgame PVE is showing. If I was downplaying anything then it was fights where someone is engaging someone else and I am sitting on a rock above spamming snipe. Or someone is running from me or some other people/group/zerg while not using Miat addon. Those are the only situation where you are technically in advantage in PVP. And in those your damage actually does not matter. You can snipe someone to death sooner or later with green equipment if they are incapable of fighting you or defending against you.
In PVE, enemies rarely move. And die very slowly. Unless you mean some random mobs in dungeons and overland. Those are hardly relevant.
Nice of you to mention light/heavy attacks. I am sure you know a lot about heavy attacks and their impact on sustain and DPS. So you know for one they are not that hot as people were predicting back in Morrowind PTS. And for second bow heavy attacks are such damage loss (related to the how long they take to fire) that you cannot use them. And that is PVE. In PVP nobody is ever letting you to stand for 2 second casting your heavy attack. They will always dodge/block it (so no resources gained) if they see you. And many of them dont need to see you. Go play PVP and try casually heavy attacking some people. Most of them will dodge something else and dont even notice they dodged you... and some of them will even get warned of incoming attack
It is also very easy to lose hawk eye stack when using heavy attacks in PVE combat. So for the safety of it you have to actually light attack before heavy attack, further decreasing your DPS if you do it more often.
For the range advantage in PVE I will tell you this. It does not exist in top end game. You are actually far more susceptible to dying than melee builds. DW builds have great self healing, are directly in front of all the healers and have 25% AoE damage reduction. 2H builds (the few that are out there) have damage shields. I dont have to tell you what defensive perks ranged mag builds get
Then there is the simple fact that difference between ranged stam and melee stam build during some big AoE attack (so melee have to back from range) the only thing ranged does more than them is using the ranged spammable. At least that was my assumption. But looking at the new dungeon and from what some people said, apparently bosses have some big hitboxes. So even in these situations sometimes melee builds are capable of fighting still. Not sure about this part.
Now for the obvious answer. If bow were good in PVP or PVE, someone would be running them. You may think people run only what is best, but that is not the case. Many people enjoy something different even if its not totally the best. You see stamblades in PVE last patch werent exactly the best. Most groups looking for good scores did not want to play with them. For PVP there are mageblades, most people agree they feel weak (unless bombing). Those are examples when someone is weaker than the rest but still strong enough to be played. Ranged stamina builds were never even close to these 2 'choices' in at least 2 years, if ever. That is a fact. You can attempt to disprove anything I say, but you cannot disprove this. Nobody with half the brain and half the experience of average PVPer/PVEr can disprove this.
//EDIT:
What are you saying at the last paragraph is definitely true tho and one of the few things we can probably agree on. But I would add something you totally disagree on to it. All weapons should have the same base damage and same set opportunities. May sound like homogenization to some, but it sounds very sensible to me. Weapons have skills and passives. All their differences should come from them. Healing yourself with vigor should not be suddenly worse because you use bow and not 2H. The only nonskills related difference between weapons should be their look and their light/heavy attacks (how fast they are, what resources the give and if they work from melee or range).Edited by SodanTok on July 18, 2017 10:48PM2 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭With nerds to health regen and still lacking large amounts of frost damage in game can the nords passive s be looked at and some changed or buffed in some way nords right now seem to be the new Argonian race no one really wants to run any class as a nord1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭With nerds to health regen and still lacking large amounts of frost damage in game can the nords passive s be looked at and some changed or buffed in some way nords right now seem to be the new Argonian race no one really wants to run any class as a nord
Edit: nerfs not nerds autocorrect the bane of my existence lol0 -
Saint_Bud✭✭✭✭Can you please take a look in the duration of inferno and eruption, The skills timeduration of 15 and 18 sec makes a god rotaion like other classes have nearly impossible. It is hard also with bufftrackers to keep them up or not overwrite them. Also it will be nice if we can aim inferno and it not shoot random to a target.PVP Saint-Bud magicka Templar: AR 49
PVE Lord Victarion mDK : dro'm-Athra-Destroyer pre Morrowind retired for crafting
PVE Ramsay-Bolton magicka NB: Voice of Reason Clockwork City Patch retired
VAA hm/ VHRC hm/ VSO hm/ VMOL hm/ VHOF hm/ VAS hm clear
Stop playing PVE because its boring, content not disigned for melee players and class balance and sustain is ***1 -
JustSnilloc✭✭✭With nerfs to health regen
I keep seeing talk about this, but I can't seem to find any references on it. What happened to health regen?[J.S.] The Lost King --->
http://justsnilloc.proboards.com/
http://justsnilloc.deviantart.com/
~ 0==={{:::::::::::::::x:::::::::::::::}}===0 ~0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭JustSnilloc wrote: »
Defile debuff also will affect health regen not just healing with this next release.
there was no change to regen itself, just counterplay added so it doesn't avoid everything.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Orchish✭✭✭✭✭
✭As if you haven't gutted Stam DK enough. Can somebody please tell Wrobel to leave us alone for once.2 -
JustSnilloc✭✭✭JustSnilloc wrote: »
Defile debuff also will affect health regen not just healing with this next release.
there was no change to regen itself, just counterplay added so it doesn't avoid everything.
Ah, that makes sense. I thought it might have something to do with that, but people were only talking about health regen itself, and not new counters for it. Thanks.[J.S.] The Lost King --->
http://justsnilloc.proboards.com/
http://justsnilloc.deviantart.com/
~ 0==={{:::::::::::::::x:::::::::::::::}}===0 ~0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As if you haven't gutted Stam DK enough. Can somebody please tell Wrobel to leave us alone for once.
but...Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »People have gone back to a light weave between dots, and then mixing 1-2 heavy attacks in per rotation. sDK is essentially doing a HA before every dot. They run the molten armaments for the HA buff (yes its the magic morph). The nice thing about DW HAs is that they are very fast so they dont feel as clunky or slow as staff HAs do. Pretty much every stam class can pull 40k on a solo dummy with just about infinite sustain.
Is there perhaps some disagreement on the gutted state of sDK?Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just wanted to throw this out there since no one really talks about specific abilties and all the rage is generally thrown towards sets in the game. I believe Poison Injection and Mages Wrath to be too effective in pvp. Its not the damage that is over-performing but the conditions. Poison injections 50% execute phase is way to high. Mage Fury i believe needs its duration reduced, 4 seconds is to long of a period in which you can reach under 20% health in a pvp environment where health pools are sporadically changing.
How i would personally fix these two abilities:
Poison Injection (2 options): this ability now scales like executioner or is reduced to 25% like most executes.
Mages Fury (2 options): reduce the time to execute to 2-3 seconds or reduce execute phase to 10-15%.
I personally am not a fan of throw away executes. I would much rather prefer seizing the moment while at low health trying to land an execute while someone is in execute phase rather then already having one that scales at low health thats already applied to you.
Biggest gripe about these 2 executes is when comparing other executes.. you gain no value when used outside of the threshold with most executes. However with these two you still get guaranteed value since there is a duration where your target can fall into the threshold.PS4 NA DC0 -
SirSocke✭✭✭You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...Bosmer stamina nightblade!3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...
This. Lol. Poison Injection is the only execute in the game where targets can fall to any execute range (even 1% hp!) and get 2 sec to heal up. Single tick at 20% hp does less damage than any execute. It is actually incomparable with mages wrath. Wrath is used to execute people, poison injection is to pressure low health targets.
Not saying it is bad skill. It is very good at what it does, but nerfing the thing that it is already bad at (executing) while also nearly removing its strength is just way to destroy the skill. Thankfully that would not happen. PVErs would riot.Edited by SodanTok on July 22, 2017 10:37AM3 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭Hello,
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert .
There is a problem with some skills and CP:
Some skills as Curse, proximity detonation, unstable core are DOT in the game (it procs valkyn skoria).
Thaumaturge (CP): increase DOT damage
Master-at-Arms (CP): increase direct damage attacks
Skills that deal damage after a few seconds as Curse, proximity detonation, unstable core... are increasing their damage with Master-at-Arms instead thaumatuge.
fix it please
Would like a confirm but i think destro ult is under the same CP buffs. Doesnt get effected by Tharm. CP investment0 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »I think the Destruction Ultimate was missed in the patch notes.
i think stop asking for nerf and learn to dodge....or run away from it... PLS dont ruin PVE cuz of PVP.....
Please, we're not trying to ruin the destro ult the same like you ruined the English language. We merely want the EotS morph addressed.
We can go two different directions with it:
1) Increase the duration, and reduce the amount of damage it does per tic in order to reduce its burst, but maintain it's overall damage.
2) Make it dodgeable, and block-able.
None of these suggestions will affect PvE.
Increased duration with secondary effects, fire causes a dot, ice freezes, lightning off-balances everyone. Lower dmg. Not hard. Just on EotS version, leave rage morph as is.1 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...
This. Lol. Poison Injection is the only execute in the game where targets can fall to any execute range (even 1% hp!) and get 2 sec to heal up. Single tick at 20% hp does less damage than any execute. It is actually incomparable with mages wrath. Wrath is used to execute people, poison injection is to pressure low health targets.
Not saying it is bad skill. It is very good at what it does, but nerfing the thing that it is already bad at (executing) while also nearly removing its strength is just way to destroy the skill. Thankfully that would not happen. PVErs would riot.
When regarding poison inj it depends the target and it mostly impacts stamina classes more so then magicka. Magicka can shield easily and get above the execute threshold.
A stamina player in medium gets shredded by this ability. Once under 50% hp if you dont have a rally to push you over, your not going to outheal this dot unless you can cloak.
This could possibly be just my frustrations coming out of me since Sheer Venom stops players from cloaking on my stamblade (its a sheer venom bug). Once Incapped with Poison Inj and Sheer Venom on you.... you die without anything you can do. Healing debuffed, cant cloak and your taking 5k+ dot damage a second. RIP.
Mages wrath is just a monster.PS4 NA DC0 -
SirSocke✭✭✭You now that dot ticks were summarized in the death recap? Never seen a poison injection ticking that high. And why should it affect stamina classes more?
As a stamina user you can purge and heal also.
But I agree, mage wrath is a monster that steals kills from other classes.Bosmer stamina nightblade!0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...You're comparing mages fury that let you explode when you reach the execute-trigger with a dot that becomes a little stronger when under 50%?
Poison injection is a dot and not a strong execute...
This. Lol. Poison Injection is the only execute in the game where targets can fall to any execute range (even 1% hp!) and get 2 sec to heal up. Single tick at 20% hp does less damage than any execute. It is actually incomparable with mages wrath. Wrath is used to execute people, poison injection is to pressure low health targets.
Not saying it is bad skill. It is very good at what it does, but nerfing the thing that it is already bad at (executing) while also nearly removing its strength is just way to destroy the skill. Thankfully that would not happen. PVErs would riot.
When regarding poison inj it depends the target and it mostly impacts stamina classes more so then magicka. Magicka can shield easily and get above the execute threshold.
A stamina player in medium gets shredded by this ability. Once under 50% hp if you dont have a rally to push you over, your not going to outheal this dot unless you can cloak.
This could possibly be just my frustrations coming out of me since Sheer Venom stops players from cloaking on my stamblade (its a sheer venom bug). Once Incapped with Poison Inj and Sheer Venom on you.... you die without anything you can do. Healing debuffed, cant cloak and your taking 5k+ dot damage a second. RIP.
Mages wrath is just a monster.
Actually it is very good vs mag, because you again forgot the critical part. Poison Injection is not about executing, but about low health pressure. Shields do not give you health so the shields get pressured too and before healing ward ticks in the pressure could be too much to handle for them. Incap poison injection is totally different situation, because poison injection makes it by design harder to leave execute range and incap makes it hard by design to heal. So while together they are very strong, it is (like with everything) the nightblade that makes it look better than it is1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Give DKs the implosion passive but with poison/fire. Rename to cremation/toxify. Makes more sense on a dot class without an execute+lowest burst and might bring sorcs a little more in line.
Cool, and what class execute does a stam sorc has then? Right, none also. Just what the weapon skills offer to stam sorcs and stam dks. So give it back to sorcs in the next patch bc the only offensive class skill for sS is a player centered AoE DoT? However, I'm no friend of that rng passive either and would trade it in a hurry against something reliably and permanently usefull. Enough RNG in the game as it is.0 -
Koolio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hello,
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert .
There is a problem with some skills and CP:
Some skills as Curse, proximity detonation, unstable core are DOT in the game (it procs valkyn skoria).
Thaumaturge (CP): increase DOT damage
Master-at-Arms (CP): increase direct damage attacks
Skills that deal damage after a few seconds as Curse, proximity detonation, unstable core... are increasing their damage with Master-at-Arms instead thaumatuge.
fix it please
Would like a confirm but i think destro ult is under the same CP buffs. Doesnt get effected by Tharm. CP investment
Tooltip increase with master on PS4.0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭MagDK got a permablocking buff with the flat value stam return from the Helping Hands Passive from the Earthen Heart skill tree. When combined with the Bloodthorn set, you can all but 100% permablock.
Sturdy, Well-Fitted need slight nerfs.
Tumbling and Shadow Ward from the CP tree need to come down to 16% max bonus. I can dodge roll wayyy too much without any well-fitted.
No they don't. You can't let block down for a moment in veteran raids. Wellfitted isn't. But sturdy needs to be left tf alone.1 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »I think the Destruction Ultimate was missed in the patch notes.
Couldn't agree more. Disappointed that some kind of change didn't occur. Talk about procs being overpowering in pvp and then do nothing about the Ulti spam is ridiculous.
"Ulti-spam" is only dangerous to zergs. It has little effect on small, coordinated groups. Eye of Flame is a necessity to keep zerglings where they belong: in a respawn loading screen.
However you wish to use it is fine with me. I was making the observation that our amazing game developer justifies nerfs to proc sets because they produce an "unsatisfying experience in pvp". That may be so, but there is no question the destro ulti is just as op and used for way more than just mowing down zerglings. So under his own justification, the destro ult should also be looked at.
What about unsatisfying pve? pvp is trash in eso.0
