Campaign adjustments for the next PC & Console incremental update

geonsocal

Scyantific wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Remember that Almalexia is Non-CP and Sotha is also Non-CP which is most likely where the Almalexia players will go, but we never take that as a given so we will be monitoring the queues & population of Sotha, Vivec and Shor on Xbox.

I have to be honest though - from many of our perspective - it is very puzzling to see zos resources devoted to a 30 day no cp campaign...i'm sure there is some good rational behind it...but, it doesn't really seem to make sense...

Because, and get this, it might blow your mind away, but there are peoplewho actually want the challenge of playing without their CP training wheels. Mind-blowing, isnt' it???

On console, specifically PS4 NA, the majority does not embrace Non-CP like PC NA does. We all shouldn't have to be cramped into one CP campaign. This is the problem geonsocal is referring to. He wasn't belittling Non-CP at all.

Non-CP has plenty of representation now, but us CP players prefer to have more options available to us. Since, not everyone here is running the best internet around.

Uh I'm pretty sure he was, considering he was asking why the devs are dedicating resources to a campaign that fits a different playstyle from the usual training-wheel campaigns. Almost like he was intending to ask "why are you wasting your time with noCP when everyone should be playing CP?"

hey @Scyantific the whole belittling thing never really came to mind when I wrote that...now that you mention it though

I was thinking more in terms of it being thirty days of very little player population...

whether you enjoy cp or not means - not much to me personally...to each their own...

heck, I have fun in battlegrounds, my builds and sustain do just fine without cp...

having everyone crammed in to one 30 day cp map was definitely not so cool - long queue times...

I was thinking why support a long 30 day no cp campaign which is so lightly populated...

to me a 30 day campaign is for those folks whom are a little more devoted to the whole pvp thing (I understand that definitely does not apply to all players)...

just doesn't seem (based on pop bars) that there are that many no cp players devoted to a 30 day camp...

so, why have it?

best of all worlds - turn it into a 7 day cp enabled IC map...

yep, as far as the tribunals - seems like old sotha sil got the short end on campaigns...

SanTii.92

Can't we keep the name?

Drakkdjinn

Scyantific wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Population of queue and the wait time in the queue for Vivec vs. the active population of Almalexia over the course of pre-launch to recent weeks along with feedback on these very forums informed this decision.

I can guarantee you that within 2 weeks, Shor will be like Haderus was pre-Morrowind. Just 1 or 2 guilds trading emp over and over, with the occasional group coming in to farm those guys.

Yup, this is what the people want, apparently.

frozywozy

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Remember that Almalexia is Non-CP and Sotha is also Non-CP which is most likely where the Almalexia players will go, but we never take that as a given so we will be monitoring the queues & population of Sotha, Vivec and Shor on Xbox.

I have to be honest though - from many of our perspective - it is very puzzling to see zos resources devoted to a 30 day no cp campaign...i'm sure there is some good rational behind it...but, it doesn't really seem to make sense...

Because, and get this, it might blow your mind away, but there are peoplewho actually want the challenge of playing without their CP training wheels. Mind-blowing, isnt' it???

On console, specifically PS4 NA, the majority does not embrace Non-CP like PC NA does. We all shouldn't have to be cramped into one CP campaign. This is the problem geonsocal is referring to. He wasn't belittling Non-CP at all.

Non-CP has plenty of representation now, but us CP players prefer to have more options available to us. Since, not everyone here is running the best internet around.

Not everyone on PC/NA likes No-CP either. I think it's fine either that you prefer. People need to stop throwing this "cp training wheels" thing around. The game is balanced around CP, whether anyone likes that or not, it's the truth. The entire game was reworked for CPs. No need for others to belittle for their preference of PvP.

Oh yes, of course.

The debate between CP and Non-CP will continue well beyond this thread. I do believe that having equal representation of CP and Non-CP in all PvP activities will suffice all palettes. My original hidden concern was this; I have seen other communities where one aspect of game play is vastly ignored to favor another type all together, causing large rifts between communities. This is something I genuinely do not want to see happen here.

Ideally, I would like Non-CP to keep it's second campaign. This way we can have 2 CP enabled campaigns, 30 day/7 day and 2 Non-CP 30 day/7 day. Same rulesets and everything, but one just has the CP switched off. Less confusion and more choices for people out there.

I agree completely. I also think Battlegrounds need to have an option between CP and NoCP. Charging people for an expansion to play BGs, but giving them no access to their CPs is a little ridiculous imo.

I may be paranoid and going crazy here, but I wouldn't be surprised if battlegrounds going no cps were just a marketing move from Zenimax again, trying to encourage people to adopt the CP system. Before Morrowind, people used to complain alot about CPs for different reasons. When Morrowind came out, they brought a ton of changes in CPs and class skills / passives to nerf the overall sustain, and then they also decided to disable CPs in battleground on top of that.

Why would they nerf the overall sustain in both CPs and class skills to balance the game, but still disable CPs? That makes no sense. It's not even to test performances like they did with a campaign for a while because battlegrounds are small instances on their own server.

This being said, I definitely think that there should be CPs battleground and regarding the overall balance, I still believe that proc sets have been delt with the wrong approach. There should be a global cooldown to force people to use only one damaging proc set and we should be able to crit with them. This way we would entirely neglect multi proc sets low sustain mega burst gankers while still providing good burst tools to people who use only one proc set and use their rotation properly to get their target down. On top of that, healing should scale off its own stat instead of weapon / spell damage.

LadyDestiny

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Discussions are still happening about Xbox as population from Almalexia could fold into Sotha, Shor and Vivec without the need to open a new campaign. I'll keep you all posted though.

We don't need any more people in Vivec. It is too crowded now and the lag and crashing is severe. Do the smart thing and open another 30 day cp campaign please.

Dragon_Master

So we finally have a short campaign on PS4 that requires skill rather than relying on CP to do all the work and it's removed? IMO, the 7-day actually gave people the chance to go for emperor and not have to invest a whole month of their lives to do it.

I can't speak for other platforms, but the PS4 7-day non-CP campaign has been pretty fun and fairly populated by all factions; far more populated than the 30-day campaign on PS4, at least for the past few weeks. I never really liked PvP because I always felt that it was really unbalanced and I didn't have the time to invest in a month-long campaign, but my friends and I have been going into the 7-day non-CP campaign on PS4 and I've been having a lot of fun. PvP used to be frustrating for me because I play a healer, so it's been a treat to stand a chance against groups of gankers, mag users, and others who would normally steamroll me. It's also been awesome to feel like a true part of a full campaign, since a lot of us work full time and have hectic lives; it's hard to feel that way with a month-long time investment requirement of a 30-day.

I understand that the 7-day campaign may not be working on PC as intended, but if PC players abuse the system, why not just remove it on PC but keep it on console? PS4 has just as large a player base as PC but it seems like the decisions that affect everyone are made by only PC players.

Just my $0.02. Really disappointed in this decision, and I know it will cost ZOS some players, which makes me sad. The option of a 7-Day non-CP campaign was REALLY appealing to a lot of the PvE community, and it stinks that this decision makes it feel like ZOS doesn't seem to want PvE'ers to enjoy PvP.

Joy_Division

TY!

Rickter

Lesson learned, ZOS:

Stop listening to the agenda driven elite Streamers whose opinions only serve to further their VIEWERSHIP.

Honestly im a little upset with this change. Haderus was a second, CP enabled campaign and it was a DEAD EMP FLIPPING SERVER - you guys remember that?! Honestly I think this is knee jerk poor decision making.

Where were all these complaints when Haderus was being Emp flipped due to ZERO player population?

Stick to your guns ZOS

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Please revist THIS THREAD!!!!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318833/close-haderus/p1

Players are going to FORCE FEED themselves onto Vivec just as they did with Trueflame. it was a problem then and always will be - players are going to shove themselves where the most players are.

ZOS needs to make a definitive decision. you have CP enabled Duels CP disabled BGs then your choice of CP or noCP Cyrodiil. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS

Karivaa

I play on Xbox and am in Vivec. Had a cue of 124 to enter. Immediately got dcd and have a cue of 174. Lovely. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Grimlok_S

So long Vivec!

Great stuff, glad to hear it Brian.

Karm1cOne

Any plans to prevent this from being an emp flip campaign?

Rickter

by definition an overflow server is where people go when they cant go to their main choice. these people arent going to home on Shor. Its going to be DEAD until 10pm EST when Vivec queue time gets too unbearable.

whatever. I'll go where good medium scale pvp is. but honestly the back and forth needs to stop. Stop listening to people who have a financial stake in the direction they want to take this game.

NBrookus

As long as people perpetuate the notion it's the emp flip campaign, it will attract emp flippers.

As long as people who don't play on the 7 day and know nothing about it insist it's empty, it'll be hard to attract population.

On the other hand, if a bunch of those people that whine about ball groups and Vivec queues/lag re-home, Haderus v2 can be a good small scale server again. A consistent population will be what prevents emp flipping. Or just removing emperor from this campaign, which would be fine with me but unlikely to happen.

Rickter

so if we dont talk about it, the problem will go away?

NBrookus

There's a difference between talking about a campaign constructively and reinforcing the idea that it's beneficialt o go there and emp flip.

Rickter

The server is Dead On Arrival if no one plans on homing there. Servers need a community of players. And right now, Shor seems like its just going to be a guested overflow campaign devoid of the very community that will make it competitive.

We'll see though. I created a poll and I'm really hopping for Shor to become competitive and the emp flipping and ghost town nature of Haderus isnt replicated there.


Off topic: how is it that ZOS was able to spin up a whole new server for pvp in a relatively short, non-publicized amount of time, but we have been struggling with Viper\Selene\Tremorscale\Red Mountain\Skoria etc proc set abuse?

Scyantific

Rickter wrote: »

Off topic: how is it that ZOS was able to spin up a whole new server for pvp in a relatively short, non-publicized amount of time, but we have been struggling with Viper\Selene\Tremorscale\Red Mountain\Skoria etc proc set abuse?

Because in essence all they did was rename it to Shor and turn on the flag that allows Champion Points. Balancing the proc-set cancer meta without running off a large part of the playerbase that relies on that meta to be any bit competitive in PvP is a whole different and larger undertaking.

NeillMcAttack

This is a great change. And that's coming from someone who prefers, but doesn't restrict myself to, non-cp PvP. The compounding of non-cp players is a definite bonus.

Anyway, I look forward to the future round of lag complaint and large queue topics raised even after this change goes live. Players will STILL cram into the most populated server, I guarantee it, always have always will.

Rickter

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

This is a great change. And that's coming from someone who prefers, but doesn't restrict myself to, non-cp PvP. The compounding of non-cp players is a definite bonus.

Anyway, I look forward to the future round of lag complaint and large queue topics raised even after this change goes live. Players will STILL cram into the most populated server, I guarantee it, always have always will.

Hope this thread stays stickied so i can link it over and over.

Magıc

Wheeler listening to the competitive players instead of casuals for once? Nice.

Joy_Division

Rickter wrote: »

Lesson learned, ZOS:

Stop listening to the agenda driven elite Streamers whose opinions only serve to further their VIEWERSHIP.

Honestly im a little upset with this change. Haderus was a second, CP enabled campaign and it was a DEAD EMP FLIPPING SERVER - you guys remember that?! Honestly I think this is knee jerk poor decision making.

Where were all these complaints when Haderus was being Emp flipped due to ZERO player population?

Stick to your guns ZOS

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Please revist THIS THREAD!!!!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318833/close-haderus/p1

Players are going to FORCE FEED themselves onto Vivec just as they did with Trueflame. it was a problem then and always will be - players are going to shove themselves where the most players are.

ZOS needs to make a definitive decision. you have CP enabled Duels CP disabled BGs then your choice of CP or noCP Cyrodiil. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS

Why are you so triggered over this?

First off, I am not an agenda elite Streamer who has any viewership and I've been asking them to make this change the day the PTs announcement was launched.

Secondly, I dont care what Haderus was before. I care about how ESO plays now and the Status Quo is unacceptable. Tonight, on the DC faction, the least populated one, there was an 85 que. A second campaign is needed.

If you hate emp flipping so much, then compose a post giving ZoS ideas how better to prevent it.

Rickter

@Joy_Division

Listen, I dont have a problem with you and my comment wasnt aimed at you. Idk what your perception of me is, I dont know anything about you. I will try and explain my statements as best as I can and I hope you take them to heart:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why are you so triggered over this?

Because, I want ZOS to make a definitive decision on what PvP is supposed to be. Majority noCP seemed like they were going in that direction, now they are essentially renegging. Its frustrating from someone that does not PvP exclusively. I think it's inconvenient to have to swap around CP every time i want to participate in each aspect and directly contradicts when ZOS has repeatedly stated they want PvP and PvE to be a unified and seamless transition.

If PvP is going to be CP enabled, thats fine, I am in fact willing to gimp myself PvE wise to accommodate it, but if it's going to be noCP then I for one (and i know im not alone) would like a clear focus and direction issued from ZOS.

Hope this provides the insight you requested.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Secondly, I dont care what Haderus was before. I care about how ESO plays now and the Status Quo is unacceptable. Tonight, on the DC faction, the least populated one, there was an 85 que. A second campaign is needed.

Dont use the word "campaign" if you know thats not what its going to be. It's an overflow dump server. And I think you should care what Haderus was before because history does have a habit of repeating itself. and that would be bad.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you hate emp flipping so much, then compose a post giving ZoS ideas how better to prevent it.

These posts have been done to death, I'll be happy to necro a few though.

Crom_CCCXVI

Sotha Sil's population was always lower than Almalexia"s. I play in these two campaigns, not sure where people got the idea it was the other way around? Not according to the population bars has Sotha ever been stronger than Alma

30. day campaigns stink, the same 3 or 4 boosting emperor's all month

Crom_CCCXVI

The last thing BG needs is CP, we don't need a bunch of unkillable tanks trolling around ruining the games

Rickter

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

Sotha Sil's population was always lower than Almalexia"s. I play in these two campaigns, not sure where people got the idea it was the other way around? Not according to the population bars has Sotha ever been stronger than Alma

30. day campaigns stink, the same 3 or 4 boosting emperor's all month

We're talking PC. on PC NA its the other way around

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

The last thing BG needs is CP, we don't need a bunch of unkillable tanks trolling around ruining the games

That already exists in noCP. ive come across unkillable magsorcs, magdks, and magwars - impregnable gear makes even light armor wearers tanky.

Joy_Division

Rickter wrote: »

@Joy_Division

Listen, I dont have a problem with you and my comment wasnt aimed at you. Idk what your perception of me is, I dont know anything about you. I will try and explain my statements as best as I can and I hope you take them to heart:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why are you so triggered over this?

Because, I want ZOS to make a definitive decision on what PvP is supposed to be. Majority noCP seemed like they were going in that direction, now they are essentially renegging. Its frustrating from someone that does not PvP exclusively. I think it's inconvenient to have to swap around CP every time i want to participate in each aspect and directly contradicts when ZOS has repeatedly stated they want PvP and PvE to be a unified and seamless transition.

If PvP is going to be CP enabled, thats fine, I am in fact willing to gimp myself PvE wise to accommodate it, but if it's going to be noCP then I for one (and i know im not alone) would like a clear focus and direction issued from ZOS.

Hope this provides the insight you requested.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Secondly, I dont care what Haderus was before. I care about how ESO plays now and the Status Quo is unacceptable. Tonight, on the DC faction, the least populated one, there was an 85 que. A second campaign is needed.

Dont use the word "campaign" if you know thats not what its going to be. It's an overflow dump server. And I think you should care what Haderus was before because history does have a habit of repeating itself. and that would be bad.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you hate emp flipping so much, then compose a post giving ZoS ideas how better to prevent it.

These posts have been done to death, I'll be happy to necro a few though.

OK, again, I can't think of one poster who has applauded ZoS for keeping the PvP community in the dark as far as its vision for PvP in the future.

But just because they opened a no CP campaign didn't mean CP were going away. ZoS never said as much, it's likely they themselves don't know, and even if they wanted to get rid of CP, it wouldn't be a good financial decision simply removing a what many of their customers across every platform play. They were many reasons why ZoS decided to do that. It could have been:

• Incorrectly assuming a large influx of new PvP players with the Morrowind patch
• Incorrectly assuming a large portion of the current PvP base would switch to no CP
• Just testing to see what the population dynamics wold be with only 1 CP campiagn
• Incorrectly assuming removing a campaign known for Emperor trading would be better than clogging Vivek's queues
• ZoS has no vision and just makes haphazard decisions
• And the ever popular conspiracy theory, they are secretly preparing for the day they turn off CP for PvP.

So by asking ZoS to "stick to its guns," you could be asking them to reinforce an incorrect assumption, continue on a rudderless course, or deliberately ignoring the now obvious desires of its PvP community for more CP campaigns. This decision shows that ZoS is at least flexible in acknowledging their pre-Morrowind assumptions were wrong and making changes according to the preferences of its PvP communtiy base and that is something I think ought to be encouraged.

Also I have clearly and consistently told ZoS that it's statement about a unified game is incorrect and ripe with problems. But that is a separate issue than waiting in a 100+ que. You do not have to switch your CPs every time you play and "gimp" yourself. You could do what I do (set your CP with both PvE and PvP in mind), you can do what most other people do (have dedicated PvE and PvP characters), you can simply play no CP. (Not to mention competitive PvE players will constantly switch their CPs depending on the Trial they do. CPs will be switched depending on the content players will engage in as long as they are part of the game regardless of what ZoS does with PvP).

OK, let's assume I care a lot about what will happen to Shor. Does that mean I should cut off my nose to spite my face and sit in hour+ long queues because some jerks will Emp flip?

And you don't have to necro threads to continue to highlight persistent and important problems with ZoS. ZoS has many times in the past indicated the most productive form of feedback as the ones that take into account opposing views and perspectives from the people with problems or requesting changes. You aren't doing that at all here. Compose a thread acknowledging the need for an another CP campaign and give ZoS some tangible and practical ideas on how to prevent emperor trading abuse.

Rickter

@Joy_Division

Thanks for taking the time for a thoughtful response.

I agree and see your point of view on everything you posted. As for composing a constructive thread in regards to how to discourage or eliminate emp flipping, well I firmly believe thats on the players. but since humanity is inherently a miserable pile of [snip] we cant expect anyone to take personal responsibility and as such I think the most "practical" method to achieve this goal would be to defer to @Crispen_Longbow 's numerous and well thought approach to reworking 7 day campaigns

TequilaFire

I recently made a new ESO/PSN account and have been acutely reminded what it means to reach level 50 with zero CP after playing at CP cap for so long on my main account.
This is why Non CP server are needed for players that have no to low CP at LvL 50 as well as those that chose not to play with CP.
Sorry if you CP630+ guys have less cannon fodder because of it! lol

NBrookus

.

TequilaFire wrote: »

I recently made a new ESO/PSN account and have been acutely reminded what it means to reach level 50 with zero CP after playing at CP cap for so long on my main account.
This is why Non CP server are needed for players that have no to low CP at LvL 50 as well as those that chose not to play with CP.
Sorry if you CP630+ guys have less cannon fodder because of it! lol

No one is suggesting the removal of the no CP campaign entirely. Having a under-50 and no CP campaigns are good for players at those levels and also provide a choice for players who prefer it.

This is entirely about the single CP campaign being vastly overpopulated with long queues, while the extra no CP campaign is empty. Brian is responding appropriately by not removing the no CP choice, but improving the situation for the larger segment of PvP'ers who need an overflow campaign.

TequilaFire

NBrookus wrote: »

.

TequilaFire wrote: »

I recently made a new ESO/PSN account and have been acutely reminded what it means to reach level 50 with zero CP after playing at CP cap for so long on my main account.
This is why Non CP server are needed for players that have no to low CP at LvL 50 as well as those that chose not to play with CP.
Sorry if you CP630+ guys have less cannon fodder because of it! lol

No one is suggesting the removal of the no CP campaign entirely. Having a under-50 and no CP campaigns are good for players at those levels and also provide a choice for players who prefer it.

This is entirely about the single CP campaign being vastly overpopulated with long queues, while the extra no CP campaign is empty. Brian is responding appropriately by not removing the no CP choice, but improving the situation for the larger segment of PvP'ers who need an overflow campaign.

I was responding to several posters in this thread that did indicate there is no need for NonCP campaigns.
It would have been nice to have added a 7 day CP campaign instead of changing the only 7 day NonCP Campaign to CP.
I play CP campaigns as well, but have been enjoying the NonCP campaigns as they are closer to the PvP combat I started this game with.