#1 Reason CP Campaigns are More Populated than Non-CP?

DeadlyRecluse

Honestly people who prefer either style need to stop referring to the other style as a crutch, it's a pretty lazy way to compare the two. And CP is only a crutch if you are playing people with less CP, noCP is only a crutch if you are using proc sets.

There are good and bad fights to be had on both formats.

I prefer noCP because that's what my group/guild/friends prefer. I dabbled in Haderus before Morrowwind too, but have no desire to play on the slideshow server. Acting like players who prefer one or the other are somehow subpar is ludicrous.

EDIT: also, imo noCP sustain got buffed in Morrowwind.

Joy_Division

Comfortably_Buzzed wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Comfortably_Buzzed wrote: »

You could be right about the AP but the flip side is that once you or your small group takes a resource, it's much easier to farm AP since the strong guards make holding the resource easier.

It seems like there is a lot of disagreement over whether CP or no CP is better. Honestly I doubt there's any way to really determine the correct answer to this debate. Consider the following points that (hopefully) we can all agree on:

5) No CP less forgiving on players for mistakes made

All five points are objectively true

That's an opinion, not an objective truth.

Did you read at all after that? I literally said except possibly for number five.

Yes I did. You thought about it and decided to put it in your list of objective truths anyway.

The rest of your post was insightful (and I hit that button), but the whole less forgiving thing is an opinion based on anecdotal "evidence" and something you or anyone else can't prove. How can that even be measured? The competition is different, the incoming damage is different, the population is different, the pattern of play is different; it is apples to oranges.

Drakkdjinn

It's easier to play with CP; characters don't get punished as badly for not knowing their builds, siege mechanics, how to deal with NPCs etc

Derra

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

EDIT: also, imo noCP sustain got buffed in Morrowwind.

Eh?

Care to explain that statement? Because poisons got nerfed?

Comfortably_Buzzed

Joy_Division wrote: »

The rest of your post was insightful (and I hit that button), but the whole less forgiving thing is an opinion based on anecdotal "evidence" and something you or anyone else can't prove. How can that even be measured? The competition is different, the incoming damage is different, the population is different, the pattern of play is different; it is apples to oranges.

You're right, I didn't really think it all the way through though. Take proc sets for example. A person not using proc sets would have a smaller margin for error since it's so much easier to be killed by opponent(s) wearing them, but by the same token the person wearing the proc sets has a larger margin for error for the same reason. Measuring something like that would not really be practicable.

DeadlyRecluse

Derra wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

EDIT: also, imo noCP sustain got buffed in Morrowwind.

Eh?

Care to explain that statement? Because poisons got nerfed?

The sustain nerfs were primarily to the CP system, and heavy attack sustain (which was already more prevalent in noCP) got buffed. The poison nerf didn't hurt, either.

The only significant sustain decreases in noCP were the armor passive changes, and I'd argue the heavy attack buff outweighs that. Your mileage may vary. Some of the stamina tweaks might have been rough, but I can't speak directly to that.

Derra

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

EDIT: also, imo noCP sustain got buffed in Morrowwind.

Eh?

Care to explain that statement? Because poisons got nerfed?

The sustain nerfs were primarily to the CP system, and heavy attack sustain (which was already more prevalent in noCP) got buffed. The poison nerf didn't hurt, either.

The only significant sustain decreases in noCP were the armor passive changes, and I'd argue the heavy attack buff outweighs that. Your mileage may vary. Some of the stamina tweaks might have been rough, but I can't speak directly to that.

In my book heavy attacks were nerfed. Quite dramatically in fact - as you gain no resources against rolldodge or block.
Now every class apart from magsorc without ice staff can confortably deny 100% of heavyattack resource generation.

Rickter

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Because players (in general) can be whining fickle bull[snip] artists. And they complained up and down, side to side, disparaging remarks hurled at ZOS. CP "killed ESO", CP "must go", ZOS "doesn't know what they are doing", etc etc etc etc. Then ZOS gives these players what they want, and now everyone is crammed into the single CP enabled campaign.

A lot of these "great" players everyone crows about simply don't perform the same when their build isn't tapped into CP. And that's a fact.

OMG I've been saying this this whole time!! @Publius_Scipio again with the #truthhammer

hahaha we all know. where are they now? certainly not in overworld cyrodiil. They abandoned all their supporters that made them so much money over the years as soon as they got what they wanted.

DeadlyRecluse

Derra wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

EDIT: also, imo noCP sustain got buffed in Morrowwind.

Eh?

Care to explain that statement? Because poisons got nerfed?

The sustain nerfs were primarily to the CP system, and heavy attack sustain (which was already more prevalent in noCP) got buffed. The poison nerf didn't hurt, either.

The only significant sustain decreases in noCP were the armor passive changes, and I'd argue the heavy attack buff outweighs that. Your mileage may vary. Some of the stamina tweaks might have been rough, but I can't speak directly to that.

In my book heavy attacks were nerfed. Quite dramatically in fact - as you gain no resources against rolldodge or block.
Now every class apart from magsorc without ice staff can confortably deny 100% of heavyattack resource generation.

Yeah, that's where it gets into use-case issues. I haven't noticed a lot of people blocking heavy lightning attacks *yet*

Scyantific

The last time I went into CP PvP I was murdering fools left and right and was bored within minutes. Maybe it's because I spent nearly a year in nCP and it actually taught me to play properly or w/e.

Also it's pretty hilarious to see groups of people come into Sotha to help crown the DC scrub emp and then run out of gas within the first 10 seconds of an encounter because they don't build for sustain at all.

KingJ wrote: »

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

simple no cp is basically designed for every kiddy to play a nb kill someone without cp resists faster than you can react and jump up and down squealing about how great they are. Every person and every streamer out there defending no cp is maining a nb, coincidence?

@FENGRUSH play NO co and he a Stamsorc.

He's a procSorc. He's been running the same build since OT, when before he would at least try to switch it up. Dude's gone stale IMO. He could throw the same sets on a stamblade and it'll work the same way. Also means proc sets are overperforming if someone can just keep the same build going through multiple patches.

If proc sets were actually balanced, and poisons didn't exist, I would guarantee you that noCP would be far more balanced than CP-based PVP.

FENGRUSH

Scyantific wrote: »

The last time I went into CP PvP I was murdering fools left and right and was bored within minutes. Maybe it's because I spent nearly a year in nCP and it actually taught me to play properly or w/e.

Also it's pretty hilarious to see groups of people come into Sotha to help crown the DC scrub emp and then run out of gas within the first 10 seconds of an encounter because they don't build for sustain at all.

KingJ wrote: »

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

simple no cp is basically designed for every kiddy to play a nb kill someone without cp resists faster than you can react and jump up and down squealing about how great they are. Every person and every streamer out there defending no cp is maining a nb, coincidence?

@FENGRUSH play NO co and he a Stamsorc.

He's a procSorc. He's been running the same build since OT, when before he would at least try to switch it up. Dude's gone stale IMO. He could throw the same sets on a stamblade and it'll work the same way. Also means proc sets are overperforming if someone can just keep the same build going through multiple patches.

If proc sets were actually balanced, and poisons didn't exist, I would guarantee you that noCP would be far more balanced than CP-based PVP.

Ive got builds without procs too. Procs are optimal on nonCP.

They are overperforming - thats been communicated plenty. Ive spent more time running support build on nonCP without procs in group play. Its a backhanded insult to say Ive gone stale with builds - when something is overperforming and never adjusted correctly then you see no need to change builds because the same thing still works better than the alternatives.

Do you want me to run the handicap build? Id be happy to give it a go if Im fighting realistic odds in Cyro. The reality is every front line fight leads to being outnumbered, so you have to come equipped with what works best.

JackDaniell

I like cp cause the procs aren't as strong in comparison to no cp

Publius_Scipio

Hahahahha Fengrush was called stale. Players want to talk about "respect" in video game land. Well let's talk about respect then.... Scipio style!

Where was/is Fengrush's respect for playing stam sorc (and successfully) when hardly no one else would touch that class/build combo because it sucked for 2 1/2 years? And everyone was concerned about using "what worked".

Sypher (whether he or anyone else here wants to say it) is accused of on the hush hush of taking other people's builds and making a name for himself. Now, Scipio isn't here to litigate this because I have no clue either which way. But the point I will make is, has Fengrush ever been accused of taking someone else's builds? Nope. Not that I have ever heard.

The only thing stale in ESO is all the hypocrisy and rancid hate ZOS gets from people still logging in to play and then complain.

Stridig

I like all 3. CP, NON-CP and Kyne. I like CP because I have a lot of them. I like NON-CP because when I make a mistake in my rotation I am punished for it. I like Kyne because there is no CP and no Proc sets. I am amused at all the noob talk associated with Kyne though. I see more people in Vivec hitting postern doors with fire ballista's than I ever did in Kyne. That's my two cents. Spend it any way you want.

Scyantific

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Hahahahha Fengrush was called stale. Players want to talk about "respect" in video game land. Well let's talk about respect then.... Scipio style!

Where was/is Fengrush's respect for playing stam sorc (and successfully) when hardly no one else would touch that class/build combo because it sucked for 2 1/2 years? And everyone was concerned about using "what worked".

Sypher (whether he or anyone else here wants to say it) is accused of on the hush hush of taking other people's builds and making a name for himself. Now, Scipio isn't here to litigate this because I have no clue either which way. But the point I will make is, has Fengrush ever been accused of taking someone else's builds? Nope. Not that I have ever heard.

The only thing stale in ESO is all the hypocrisy and rancid hate ZOS gets from people still logging in to play and then complain.

You uh, got something on your nose there mate.

I never claimed that Feng stole people's builds, so I don't even know where you infer that from my post. I'm just saying that for someone who championed a lost cause (the stamsorc, which btw, I know of several people who would make S.Sorc work just as well back before TG/DB) back before Wrobel buffed it to a competitive level and was super creative with making it competitive in PvP, it's kinda boring to go back to OT and see Viper/Tremor/[Insert Heavy Armor Here] as part of the build patch after patch. Yeah, it's effective, no one's saying it isn't, so maybe that's just what people want to see, really, and not seeing him get creative with builds like he used to. But that's not really his fault, that's more on Wrobel for pigeon-holing everyone into using procsets because they're far more effective than say, Agility + Hundings/Spriggan + Kena.

Publius_Scipio

Scyantific wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Hahahahha Fengrush was called stale. Players want to talk about "respect" in video game land. Well let's talk about respect then.... Scipio style!

Where was/is Fengrush's respect for playing stam sorc (and successfully) when hardly no one else would touch that class/build combo because it sucked for 2 1/2 years? And everyone was concerned about using "what worked".

Sypher (whether he or anyone else here wants to say it) is accused of on the hush hush of taking other people's builds and making a name for himself. Now, Scipio isn't here to litigate this because I have no clue either which way. But the point I will make is, has Fengrush ever been accused of taking someone else's builds? Nope. Not that I have ever heard.

The only thing stale in ESO is all the hypocrisy and rancid hate ZOS gets from people still logging in to play and then complain.

You uh, got something on your nose there mate.

I never claimed that Feng stole people's builds, so I don't even know where you infer that from my post. I'm just saying that for someone who championed a lost cause (the stamsorc, which btw, I know of several people who would make S.Sorc work just as well back before TG/DB) back before Wrobel buffed it to a competitive level and was super creative with making it competitive in PvP, it's kinda boring to go back to OT and see Viper/Tremor/[Insert Heavy Armor Here] as part of the build patch after patch. Yeah, it's effective, no one's saying it isn't, so maybe that's just what people want to see, really, and not seeing him get creative with builds like he used to. But that's not really his fault, that's more on Wrobel for pigeon-holing everyone into using procsets because they're far more effective than say, Agility + Hundings/Spriggan + Kena.

I do, in the US we call it a pimple. It's an unfortunate part of life.

Dragon_Master

I feel like Non-CP is much more inclusive of everyone and it's much harder for one trash nightblade to take a group of 10 down in non-CP. As a somewhat pure healer in CP, you have a bullseye on your back and if one person hits 3 buttons, you're dead. Gear is worth far more in non-CP, so it's nice to be able to run 5 heavy impen in a campaign and actually have it be affective against the ambush/surprise attack spammers.

Non-CP sees a lot of Magicka NBs stacking up and hitting eye of the storm at the same time. In CP, they'd wipe entire zergs with it, but in non-CP, surviving is much more possible. I feel non-CP is much more balanced and it's appealing to PvE players.

Face it, the game is focused on making PvPers happy (which is backwards IMO), so having campaigns that don't include the hardcore PvPers is kind of nice. Now everyone can go into PvP, find their niche, get some AP and *gasp* have a chance at emperorship.

Sandman929

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Face it, the game is focused on making PvPers happy (which is backwards IMO), so having campaigns that don't include the hardcore PvPers is kind of nice. Now everyone can go into PvP, find their niche, get some AP and *gasp* have a chance at emperorship.

The game is focused on making PvPer's happy? It's doing a terrible job. Where's my new PvP zone every few months?

Scyantific

Dragon_Master wrote: »

I feel like Non-CP is much more inclusive of everyone and it's much harder for one trash nightblade to take a group of 10 down in non-CP. As a somewhat pure healer in CP, you have a bullseye on your back and if one person hits 3 buttons, you're dead. Gear is worth far more in non-CP, so it's nice to be able to run 5 heavy impen in a campaign and actually have it be affective against the ambush/surprise attack spammers.

Non-CP sees a lot of Magicka NBs stacking up and hitting eye of the storm at the same time. In CP, they'd wipe entire zergs with it, but in non-CP, surviving is much more possible. I feel non-CP is much more balanced and it's appealing to PvE players.

Face it, the game is focused on making PvPers happy (which is backwards IMO), so having campaigns that don't include the hardcore PvPers is kind of nice. Now everyone can go into PvP, find their niche, get some AP and *gasp* have a chance at emperorship.

lmfao so clearly AoE caps, the loss of dynamic ulti gen, the increase in AP earnings and the decrease of AP required to unlock Vigor/Caltrops/War Horn was meant for the hardcore PvP crowd and not the PvE casuals who whined about the work required to earn skills that were originally meant for PvP, right?

Dragon_Master

Sandman929 wrote: »

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Face it, the game is focused on making PvPers happy (which is backwards IMO), so having campaigns that don't include the hardcore PvPers is kind of nice. Now everyone can go into PvP, find their niche, get some AP and *gasp* have a chance at emperorship.

The game is focused on making PvPer's happy? It's doing a terrible job. Where's my new PvP zone every few months?

You mean skills being nerfed or buffs to help silence the crying PvP population? The end of monster sets proc'ing? Reducing overall player damage to "balance" the game? Taking resource cost reduction out of CP because it's not fair that people don't run out of resources in PvP? Removal of one of the non-CP campaigns because PC PvP players don't like it? PvP players able to get PvE gear without farming because it's just not fair that they should have to do content in order to have the same gear?

The game is focused on making PvP happy. If it wasn't, they'd just do a patch to make dungeons harder, but they don't.

Dragon_Master

Scyantific wrote: »

lmfao so clearly AoE caps, the loss of dynamic ulti gen, the increase in AP earnings and the decrease of AP required to unlock Vigor/Caltrops/War Horn was meant for the hardcore PvP crowd and not the PvE casuals who whined about the work required to earn skills that were originally meant for PvP, right?

So PvEers can just level PvP skills in PvE or do they have to go into PvP to unlock them?
And PvE skills can only be unlocked in PvE can they be unlocked in PvP?

That's what I thought, too.

Stridig

I'm pretty sure a large portion of the PvP community have to do PvE to get gear. All the good stuff is BOP. I'm not sure the argument that they can get gear without farming it really holds up.

Scyantific

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

lmfao so clearly AoE caps, the loss of dynamic ulti gen, the increase in AP earnings and the decrease of AP required to unlock Vigor/Caltrops/War Horn was meant for the hardcore PvP crowd and not the PvE casuals who whined about the work required to earn skills that were originally meant for PvP, right?

So PvEers can just level PvP skills in PvE or do they have to go into PvP to unlock them?
And PvE skills can only be unlocked in PvE can they be unlocked in PvP?

That's what I thought, too.

You only need to get the AP to hit rank 5 for Vigor, which if you have a pulse, should take no less than 2 hours. After that you can go grind up the xp to level it in PvE

And yeah, you can level PvE skills in PvP. That's why I have a friggin training skill bar set up on all my characters, so when I go turn in bounty quests or finish defending a keep, I can swap to those skills that need XP and level em up while inside PvP.

Any other dumb questions/claims you want to make?

Zvorgin

Scyantific wrote: »

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

lmfao so clearly AoE caps, the loss of dynamic ulti gen, the increase in AP earnings and the decrease of AP required to unlock Vigor/Caltrops/War Horn was meant for the hardcore PvP crowd and not the PvE casuals who whined about the work required to earn skills that were originally meant for PvP, right?

So PvEers can just level PvP skills in PvE or do they have to go into PvP to unlock them?
And PvE skills can only be unlocked in PvE can they be unlocked in PvP?

That's what I thought, too.

You only need to get the AP to hit rank 5 for Vigor, which if you have a pulse, should take no less than 2 hours. After that you can go grind up the xp to level it in PvE

And yeah, you can level PvE skills in PvP. That's why I have a friggin training skill bar set up on all my characters, so when I go turn in bounty quests or finish defending a keep, I can swap to those skills that need XP and level em up while inside PvP.

Any other dumb questions/claims you want to make?

You are wrecking his alternate reality with facts!

Majeure

Cyrodiil is still in the game? People still go there?

Publius_Scipio

Majeure wrote: »

Cyrodiil is still in the game? People still go there?

Yes. Yes.

Dragon_Master

Zvorgin wrote: »

You are wrecking his alternate reality with facts!

Her*. Read the signature. Don't know many guys with the name "Katie", but hey, no judgement.

Dragon_Master

Scyantific wrote: »

You only need to get the AP to hit rank 5 for Vigor, which if you have a pulse, should take no less than 2 hours. After that you can go grind up the xp to level it in PvE

And yeah, you can level PvE skills in PvP. That's why I have a friggin training skill bar set up on all my characters, so when I go turn in bounty quests or finish defending a keep, I can swap to those skills that need XP and level em up while inside PvP.

Any other dumb questions/claims you want to make?

Sorry, I don't use vigor.

My point was that the game is geared toward keeping the PvP crew happy in terms of balances. I could be wrong, but any changes to the game in terms of nerfing skills or buffing skills or removing proc sets or whatever has been geared toward what that'll do for PvP, not PvE.

If you argue that, just don't. It's a fact. I'm not really here to get dumb answers from you, so please move it along, sweetie.

Derra

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

You only need to get the AP to hit rank 5 for Vigor, which if you have a pulse, should take no less than 2 hours. After that you can go grind up the xp to level it in PvE

And yeah, you can level PvE skills in PvP. That's why I have a friggin training skill bar set up on all my characters, so when I go turn in bounty quests or finish defending a keep, I can swap to those skills that need XP and level em up while inside PvP.

Any other dumb questions/claims you want to make?

Sorry, I don't use vigor.

My point was that the game is geared toward keeping the PvP crew happy in terms of balances. I could be wrong, but any changes to the game in terms of nerfing skills or buffing skills or removing proc sets or whatever has been geared toward what that'll do for PvP, not PvE.

If you argue that, just don't. It's a fact. I'm not really here to get dumb answers from you, so please move it along, sweetie.

And most of the things that got introduced creatingimbalances (proccsets, championsystem, DSA vMSA) were introduced in the first place for pve players?

If you really think this game is mainly catering to pvpers - why has all this nonsense been introduced in the first place - yet we still have to see a single update focused around pvp.

Sandman929

Dragon_Master wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

You only need to get the AP to hit rank 5 for Vigor, which if you have a pulse, should take no less than 2 hours. After that you can go grind up the xp to level it in PvE

And yeah, you can level PvE skills in PvP. That's why I have a friggin training skill bar set up on all my characters, so when I go turn in bounty quests or finish defending a keep, I can swap to those skills that need XP and level em up while inside PvP.

Any other dumb questions/claims you want to make?

Sorry, I don't use vigor.

My point was that the game is geared toward keeping the PvP crew happy in terms of balances. I could be wrong, but any changes to the game in terms of nerfing skills or buffing skills or removing proc sets or whatever has been geared toward what that'll do for PvP, not PvE.

If you argue that, just don't. It's a fact. I'm not really here to get dumb answers from you, so please move it along, sweetie.

Balance decisions come primarily from PvP because PvP is where imbalance is revealed. We fight other people, not just scripted damage and static mechanics.