Zenimax Gets Nerevarine Wrong

Muramasa89

I gave up caring after hearing "dwem-er" as the main pronunciation after Morrowind (much like Azura, I pronounce it "dwee-mer").

ProfessorKittyhawk

Of all the things to get worked up over, the pronunciation of words in a fantasy environment is one of them? To me it's like the real world equivalent of people arguing over the proper way to say tomato. Or what to call soda. Same could be true in ESO. Different characters can have their own way of saying Balmora or Nerevarine. I can almost picture a couple of drunken haughty Dark elves arguing about it in a tavern.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Zos gets nectarines wrong too. Seriously why are they so rare?

ofSunhold

Mmhm

Did you play Skyrim? People who lived in the same town, at the same time, didn't know how to pronounce each other's names. On Nirn, names are hard.

Deep breaths. Deeeeeeep breaths.

ShedsHisTail

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

Perhaps... But we're not actually talking about a mere 2.5 life spans (which is really more than enough time for simple pronunciation adjustments, I pronounce all kinds of words differently from my grandparents), we're talking about -thousands- of years since Indoril Nerevar died in the First Era. Who knows how many changes have taken place since he lived, or where in the timeline of language mutation we are in ESO. The pronunciation we encounter in ESO could be dying out.

Additionally, we're not just dealing with Dunmer between now and ES:III. Not long after ESO, the Imperials colonize Vvardenfell, they've no experience with native pronunciations, so they're going to change them (say them wrong). Those new non-native mispronunciations are going to circulate.

There's more that goes into the evolution of language than a simple passing of time.

starkerealm

ofSunhold wrote: »

Mmhm

Did you play Skyrim? People who lived in the same town, at the same time, didn't know how to pronounce each other's names. On Nirn, names are hard.

Deep breaths. Deeeeeeep breaths.

Derp Elves.

Sigma957

Just look at modern day english language and how it is changed not only by culture but by individual people. It's the was we are taught by our parents and the influences in our lives. A good example is spelling,, Here is Australia we spell colour, flavour etc like this but in America it's color, flavor etc. Don't get me started on accents within same group of people. So I don't see the problem how they say Neravine, Gnisis etc.

Ir0nB34r

Just look at modern linguistics. Language can change drastically just in a single generation. I mean, look at the younger generation now. There are so many words now that did not exist in our parents generation. And a load of words that have began to mean something else entirely.

700 years is a long time. It does not matter if a group of people can live 300+ years or not.

woe

Potato tomato potato tomato

Anunakis

remember this is 700 years before tes 3 morrowind, language can change drastically in such time period like Scandinavian languages few hundred years ago they spoken 1 language , so different pronunciation is not a big deal

hmsdragonfly

@Enodoc do you have any insight about this?

asuitandtyb14_ESO

starkerealm wrote: »

No one else is bothered by the pronunciation change to Balmora? Especially since there are NPCs in the game that use the correct pronunciation?

Oh, I am. I'm just picking my battles.

Caligamy_ESO

It bothers me more that I can see Red Mountain clear as day from Vivec but the moment I step foot onto the Amaya Lake Lodge property it is suddenly nowhere to be seen.. must be a dragon break!

Bringer

Its not just this, but the same npc in the same sentence will pronounce nerevar and nerevarine entierly different.

Skcarkden

Recremen wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

As if the voice actors in the first game were infallible and the modern ones are messing it up. I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines. I mean did you hear how Azura said "Dwemer"?

Infallible? No...? Maybe, I don't know really, not relevant. The "modern ones messing it up"? Yes, but I don't blame them. Ultimately it's the producers at zenimax who should be on this stuff. " I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines", well I completely disagree with that, I think being called what you're supposed to be called is kind of important, but hey if that means I can you Captain Billy Bob than sweet.

I'm just suggesting that the "original" pronunciations are not even necessarily how it was intended to be pronounced. Like "n'wah" sounds way better in the modern pronunciation by all the voice actors than "enwah" like how it used to be pronounced (you know, by all two voice actors for Dunmer in TES3). It doesn't even make sense linguistically to pronounce it the old way.

I'm going to reference the movie titled 'Moana'. Seems majority of people outside of that ethnicity see the title and pronounce it like moan-ah. While the true, correct version is Mo-ah-nah. I'm sure people would argue linguistically moan-ah would sound more natural, at least when they apply their own common language rules to it than what it really is.

You say it doesn't make sense, based on YOUR language, when it's a word made up and used by a fictional race in a game while there are real world examples of people getting words wrong.

Teridaxus

Drew wax

MarrazzMist

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

Aliyavana

Recremen wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

As if the voice actors in the first game were infallible and the modern ones are messing it up. I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines. I mean did you hear how Azura said "Dwemer"?

Infallible? No...? Maybe, I don't know really, not relevant. The "modern ones messing it up"? Yes, but I don't blame them. Ultimately it's the producers at zenimax who should be on this stuff. " I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines", well I completely disagree with that, I think being called what you're supposed to be called is kind of important, but hey if that means I can you Captain Billy Bob than sweet.

I'm just suggesting that the "original" pronunciations are not even necessarily how it was intended to be pronounced. Like "n'wah" sounds way better in the modern pronunciation by all the voice actors than "enwah" like how it used to be pronounced (you know, by all two voice actors for Dunmer in TES3). It doesn't even make sense linguistically to pronounce it the old way. It's more likely that they did it wrong in TES3 due to budget and time constraints than now, when they have a whole team behind it and at least 8 male and 8 female voice actors for each race.

EDIT: that said, I don't personally like how "Gnisis" and "Ald-Ruhn" are pronounced, but then again I never really liked the way "Cyrodiil" was pronounced either. And also those are personal preferences as opposed to being the hard law of the creative team.

Blasphemy! You ennnnn'wah :P

Rosveen

Skcarkden wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

As if the voice actors in the first game were infallible and the modern ones are messing it up. I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines. I mean did you hear how Azura said "Dwemer"?

Infallible? No...? Maybe, I don't know really, not relevant. The "modern ones messing it up"? Yes, but I don't blame them. Ultimately it's the producers at zenimax who should be on this stuff. " I don't think there's a strict pronunciation for any of these things, more like guidelines", well I completely disagree with that, I think being called what you're supposed to be called is kind of important, but hey if that means I can you Captain Billy Bob than sweet.

I'm just suggesting that the "original" pronunciations are not even necessarily how it was intended to be pronounced. Like "n'wah" sounds way better in the modern pronunciation by all the voice actors than "enwah" like how it used to be pronounced (you know, by all two voice actors for Dunmer in TES3). It doesn't even make sense linguistically to pronounce it the old way.

I'm going to reference the movie titled 'Moana'. Seems majority of people outside of that ethnicity see the title and pronounce it like moan-ah. While the true, correct version is Mo-ah-nah. I'm sure people would argue linguistically moan-ah would sound more natural, at least when they apply their own.
common language rules to it than what it really is.

You say it doesn't make sense, based on YOUR language, when it's a word made up and used by a fictional race in a game while there are real world examples of people getting words wrong.

Coming from another non-Polynesian country (Poland), it never occured to me to pronouce it like the English word "moan". The 3-syllable version is in line with my own language's rules and was the most natural to me.

The "natural" way is different for everyone.

Anne_Firehawk

Fix Battlegrounds first.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

Couple problems with these seemingly endless defense. First, in both Morrowind, Oblivion, AND in Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC the Nerevarine is pronounced the same...by everybody. This stretch of games covers over a thousand years and yet it didn't change in that time. Secondly, even if we pretend what I just said wasn't a factor, the Dunmer are a proud, slow to change, ANCESTOR WORSHIPING PEOPLE. They do not just change the name of something that quickly. Keep in mind, were not debating over the pronunciation of "tomato", this is someone's name. This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer. In no way are these proud people changing the name of Nerevar in the span of two, maybe three generations, but are still maintaining the proper names of the Tribunal, their towns, their ecosystem, and everything else. That's not how this works! Is it so hard to admit its bad and lazy direction from Zenimax! In fact, I don't even care about that. Just fix it.

LMar

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Fix Battlegrounds first.

Not sure if the lore master can issue pronunciation leaflets to the combat team.

"Feex thee ba-ttel-grah-oo-nts"

Hallothiel

Well to me neither of the pronunciations make sense. Where does the Uh sound come from?

Thought it was Ner-varine or even Ne -revarine but neither of the ones posted!

And there can be huge differences in pronunciation even between places next door to each other. Language is very mutable.

MarrazzMist

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer.

No we don't. Name of Jeesus is written and pronunced in many ways. I don't actually know about Geoffrey or his godhood, but egllish has changed a lot too.

Rosveen

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

Couple problems with these seemingly endless defense. First, in both Morrowind, Oblivion, AND in Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC the Nerevarine is pronounced the same...by everybody. This stretch of games covers over a thousand years and yet it didn't change in that time. Secondly, even if we pretend what I just said wasn't a factor, the Dunmer are a proud, slow to change, ANCESTOR WORSHIPING PEOPLE. They do not just change the name of something that quickly. Keep in mind, were not debating over the pronunciation of "tomato", this is someone's name. This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer. In no way are these proud people changing the name of Nerevar in the span of two, maybe three generations, but are still maintaining the proper names of the Tribunal, their towns, their ecosystem, and everything else. That's not how this works! Is it so hard to admit its bad and lazy direction from Zenimax! In fact, I don't even care about that. Just fix it.

Funny that you mention Chaucer, because he lived just before the Great Vowel Shift - the period when all long vowels in Middle English changed their pronunciation. Many of his rhymes don't rhyme anymore and if you tried to read his works the way they were originally pronounced, a modern English speaker would have trouble understanding them.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

MarrazzMist wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer.

No we don't. Name of Jeesus is written and pronunced in many ways. I don't actually know about Geoffrey or his godhood, but egllish has changed a lot too.

I see that you didn't actually comprehend anything I said, so thanks for trying. Read it again, especially the part you quoted, then read the whole post and the overall message. Let it digest, and think. I'm trying to talk about things that you aren't getting, but if you can figure it out please try.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

Rosveen wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

Couple problems with these seemingly endless defense. First, in both Morrowind, Oblivion, AND in Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC the Nerevarine is pronounced the same...by everybody. This stretch of games covers over a thousand years and yet it didn't change in that time. Secondly, even if we pretend what I just said wasn't a factor, the Dunmer are a proud, slow to change, ANCESTOR WORSHIPING PEOPLE. They do not just change the name of something that quickly. Keep in mind, were not debating over the pronunciation of "tomato", this is someone's name. This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer. In no way are these proud people changing the name of Nerevar in the span of two, maybe three generations, but are still maintaining the proper names of the Tribunal, their towns, their ecosystem, and everything else. That's not how this works! Is it so hard to admit its bad and lazy direction from Zenimax! In fact, I don't even care about that. Just fix it.

Funny that you mention Chaucer, because he lived just before the Great Vowel Shift - the period when all long vowels in Middle English changed their pronunciation. Many of his rhymes don't rhyme anymore and if you tried to read his works the way they were originally pronounced, a modern English speaker would have trouble understanding them.

Phew, good thing I wasn't talking about his actual works then. Do love me a good Miller's Tale though..."branded on the bum" heh heh.

MarrazzMist

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer.

No we don't. Name of Jeesus is written and pronunced in many ways. I don't actually know about Geoffrey or his godhood, but egllish has changed a lot too.

I see that you didn't actually comprehend anything I said, so thanks for trying. Read it again, especially the part you quoted, then read the whole post and the overall message. Let it digest, and think. I'm trying to talk about things that you aren't getting, but if you can figure it out please try.

Sorry, I was being light-hearted. I don't get the frustration expecially after these discussions. But I'm fine with disagreeing.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

MarrazzMist wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

MarrazzMist wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

700 years between the two games.
Languages evolve.

Not so much when the people involved live for hundreds even thousands of years - stop with your short lifed human racism!

My native language has changed a lot more than these excamples in a hundred years, both written and spoken. So that's a few generations of humans, easily could have bigger changes for 3-5 generations of elves.

Dunmer do not live thousands of years, 300 year old is very old dunmer.

This is like their Jesus. In our real, shorter human life spans we still pronounce the names of people from 700 years ago correctly, like Geoffrey Chaucer.

No we don't. Name of Jeesus is written and pronunced in many ways. I don't actually know about Geoffrey or his godhood, but egllish has changed a lot too.

I see that you didn't actually comprehend anything I said, so thanks for trying. Read it again, especially the part you quoted, then read the whole post and the overall message. Let it digest, and think. I'm trying to talk about things that you aren't getting, but if you can figure it out please try.

Sorry, I was being light-hearted. I don't get the frustration expecially after these discussions. But I'm fine with disagreeing.

Than that totally did not come across at all. I actually get it if some other people just don't care, or don't know about these lore discrepancies. You don't have to get it, you don't have to care either, I'm cool with that. But if you try and make light of something that someone clearly is passionate about, on a medium that can't translate humor, you're probably not going to get the reaction you wanted.

Rosveen

I think it should be consistent too, but it isn't and we won't get Zenimax to record all this VA again, so we have to make do with what we have. That means finding an explanation for the pronunciation change.