Shield breaker Damage

Biro123

SodanTok wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Leave shieldbreaker as is. Sorcs are overpowered, and if they can't heal or outmove 2.1k damage, then l2p.

So, you tell me how to do that then. Let's assume you are a magsorc and being attacked by 2 players, one with shield breaker.
You are already spamming shields as quickly as possible just to stay alive from the normal hits, but in 5 seconds, you're in execute range just from shield breaker + oblivion enchants.

Where do the heals come from? Let's give the sorc a chance and assume he's running the twilight matriarch rather than healing ward.

Sorc has to heal now rather than shield, so he does, and loses a gcd of shields. He heals 9k of the 13k shieldbreaker +oblivion damage he has taken, but in that time, shields have dropped and he's lost another 4k health. If a cc or ulti hits then, while the sorc is down 8k health and shieldless, its gg.
If not, sorc has to shield fast, has only one shield up, is even more on the back foot and is still down 8k health. Assume he can keep the shields up for another 5 seconds without normal damage getting through, he's taken another 13k of oblivion damage so has now lost 21k health in total. GG.

With the more usual healing ward... It takes 6 seconds to kick in.. By the time the sorc realises its shield breaker damage, layers his shields to cast it, you're about 4/5 seconds into the fight already. Soi it won't go off until 10 seconds into the fight (assuming it does as opposed to its shield being taken down, removing the heal). But by then, you've lost 26k health to shield breaker + oblivion. GG.

Please tell me, in any situation other than a 1v1(which is very rare), how does a sorc with a standard build survive shieldbreaker (I'm not even asking you to tell me how he can be competitive against it, just how to survive without running away like a screaming girl).

"without running away like a screaming girl" there is your problem. Competent sorcs always run away from unfavorable situations.

Also no situation you described above exists. For constant 2k oblivion dps you would have to light attack every second, that means you have to use shieldbreaker set, use bow with it, never have to go defensive, never be out of range, enemy sorc must never dodge roll, enemy sorc must never cc you, enemy sorc must not have dark conversion, enemy sorc must never LoS you.
If even 1-2 of these things happen (some are more severe than others) healing ward will completly negate any shieldbreaker damage.

That's exactly what shieldbreaker users do. They hide behind others, plinking away with a bow, looking for sorcs to target.

Dodgeroll gives you a second or 2 - you can't do it a lot on a mag build
Dark conversion = death while being focused - even without shieldbreaker
CC is not an option when dropping your shield for 1gcd = death

Basically the only option is LOS (ie running away like a girl), as Lexy mentioned. This is not always an option in open-field many vs many.
It is nothing but an Xv1 easykill tool - which does twice the damage of Viper AND is ranged AND unresistable. I struggle to see the balance here.

I think it's actually a bug that battle spirit doesn't affect it.

Sanctum74

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Leave shieldbreaker as is. Sorcs are overpowered, and if they can't heal or outmove 2.1k damage, then l2p.

So, you tell me how to do that then. Let's assume you are a magsorc and being attacked by 2 players, one with shield breaker.
You are already spamming shields as quickly as possible just to stay alive from the normal hits, but in 5 seconds, you're in execute range just from shield breaker + oblivion enchants.

Where do the heals come from? Let's give the sorc a chance and assume he's running the twilight matriarch rather than healing ward.

Sorc has to heal now rather than shield, so he does, and loses a gcd of shields. He heals 9k of the 13k shieldbreaker +oblivion damage he has taken, but in that time, shields have dropped and he's lost another 4k health. If a cc or ulti hits then, while the sorc is down 8k health and shieldless, its gg.
If not, sorc has to shield fast, has only one shield up, is even more on the back foot and is still down 8k health. Assume he can keep the shields up for another 5 seconds without normal damage getting through, he's taken another 13k of oblivion damage so has now lost 21k health in total. GG.

With the more usual healing ward... It takes 6 seconds to kick in.. By the time the sorc realises its shield breaker damage, layers his shields to cast it, you're about 4/5 seconds into the fight already. Soi it won't go off until 10 seconds into the fight (assuming it does as opposed to its shield being taken down, removing the heal). But by then, you've lost 26k health to shield breaker + oblivion. GG.

Please tell me, in any situation other than a 1v1(which is very rare), how does a sorc with a standard build survive shieldbreaker (I'm not even asking you to tell me how he can be competitive against it, just how to survive without running away like a screaming girl).

Healing ward and power surge. Surge allows you to stay on the offensive and passively heal while doing damage. But let me guess that gives up a skill slot on one of your 3 bars and scorcs just cant afford to give up any slots lol!

Biro123

Surge does nothing when you're forced to use all your gcd's to keep shields up or die. It doesn't just let you go on the offensive without dying.

To be honest, I've come up with a build that can counter it, that let's you use all your gcd's on shielding while having enough of a combination of hots and health regen to handle that shieldbreaker damage.. But you give up a lot for it in terms of damage, shield strength and burst healing... And Murphy's Law states that every time I run this build, I don't see any shieldbreaker users...

Lexxypwns

Biro123 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Leave shieldbreaker as is. Sorcs are overpowered, and if they can't heal or outmove 2.1k damage, then l2p.

So, you tell me how to do that then. Let's assume you are a magsorc and being attacked by 2 players, one with shield breaker.
You are already spamming shields as quickly as possible just to stay alive from the normal hits, but in 5 seconds, you're in execute range just from shield breaker + oblivion enchants.

Where do the heals come from? Let's give the sorc a chance and assume he's running the twilight matriarch rather than healing ward.

Sorc has to heal now rather than shield, so he does, and loses a gcd of shields. He heals 9k of the 13k shieldbreaker +oblivion damage he has taken, but in that time, shields have dropped and he's lost another 4k health. If a cc or ulti hits then, while the sorc is down 8k health and shieldless, its gg.
If not, sorc has to shield fast, has only one shield up, is even more on the back foot and is still down 8k health. Assume he can keep the shields up for another 5 seconds without normal damage getting through, he's taken another 13k of oblivion damage so has now lost 21k health in total. GG.

With the more usual healing ward... It takes 6 seconds to kick in.. By the time the sorc realises its shield breaker damage, layers his shields to cast it, you're about 4/5 seconds into the fight already. Soi it won't go off until 10 seconds into the fight (assuming it does as opposed to its shield being taken down, removing the heal). But by then, you've lost 26k health to shield breaker + oblivion. GG.

Please tell me, in any situation other than a 1v1(which is very rare), how does a sorc with a standard build survive shieldbreaker (I'm not even asking you to tell me how he can be competitive against it, just how to survive without running away like a screaming girl).

"without running away like a screaming girl" there is your problem. Competent sorcs always run away from unfavorable situations.

Also no situation you described above exists. For constant 2k oblivion dps you would have to light attack every second, that means you have to use shieldbreaker set, use bow with it, never have to go defensive, never be out of range, enemy sorc must never dodge roll, enemy sorc must never cc you, enemy sorc must not have dark conversion, enemy sorc must never LoS you.
If even 1-2 of these things happen (some are more severe than others) healing ward will completly negate any shieldbreaker damage.

That's exactly what shieldbreaker users do. They hide behind others, plinking away with a bow, looking for sorcs to target.

Dodgeroll gives you a second or 2 - you can't do it a lot on a mag build
Dark conversion = death while being focused - even without shieldbreaker
CC is not an option when dropping your shield for 1gcd = death

Basically the only option is LOS (ie running away like a girl), as Lexy mentioned. This is not always an option in open-field many vs many.
It is nothing but an Xv1 easykill tool - which does twice the damage of Viper AND is ranged AND unresistable. I struggle to see the balance here.

I think it's actually a bug that battle spirit doesn't affect it.

Actually, resto ult counter shield breaker, exactly as I told you, don't try to twist my arguement into something else. You asked for a way to counter a set designed to hard counter shields on a sorc, where shields are your main defense. I gave you the exact tactic I use in meticulous detail and all you get from it is "Los like Lexxy said" but that's only one step in the process and only necessary if you realize after you've lost a dangerous amount of health. If you listen and hear the first shieldbreaker proc you can probably kill the guy outright with just resto ult + your combo.

Furthermore, if you're playing solo on a sorc and you're ever more than 2 streaks from LoS when there are a dangerous amount of targets you're out of position and deserve whatever comes of that because you've allowed yourself to be out played

Biro123

You're right, resto ulti is part of a useful counter and you're right that with effective los you can survive it, but it totally relies outplaying your opponents by a lot, and doesn't change the fact that being able to do twice the damage of viper at range and unresistable by simply plinking light-attacks is overpowered.

But yes, you're right, that sounds is distinctive. I guess it just means I can't play with the sound off an my music playing anymore. (Didn't get the sound queues the first few times I encountered it)

Lexxypwns

Biro123 wrote: »

You're right, resto ulti is part of a useful counter and you're right that with effective los you can survive it, but it totally relies outplaying your opponents by a lot, and doesn't change the fact that being able to do twice the damage of viper at range and unresistable by simply plinking light-attacks is overpowered.

I don't think popping resto ult and bursting some is "outplaying then by a lot" but whatever. Clearly we're not in the same skill tier. Idk how shieldbreaker is any different than any other 1vX situation as a sorc. Most times, if you make a mistake you die anyway, shieldbreaker or not. The things that counter shieldbreaker are things that good sorcs do already: be aware of positioning, quick prioritization of targets, knowing how to use your ults to ensure they're up when you need them, choosing your battles in such a way that even when out numbered you can be in an advantageous position.

If you fail at any of those against a player with a brain you'll probably die 1v1, much less 1vX. Since all the things a smart sorc is supposed to do counter shieldbreaker users I can't quite identify the problem here.

Sanctum74

Biro123 wrote: »

Surge does nothing when you're forced to use all your gcd's to keep shields up or die. It doesn't just let you go on the offensive without dying.

To be honest, I've come up with a build that can counter it, that let's you use all your gcd's on shielding while having enough of a combination of hots and health regen to handle that shieldbreaker damage.. But you give up a lot for it in terms of damage, shield strength and burst healing... And Murphy's Law states that every time I run this build, I don't see any shieldbreaker users...

Surge lasts 33 seconds and will heal you as you do damage. You can also use rapid regen which lasts 16 seconds. Both have long durations and are easy to keep up in combat.

Throw in healing ward, harness, or hardened ward and you can heal and dps at the same time. You can even use health drain poisons or enchants as well.

Point is there are plenty of option to survive shield breaker cheese. If you are repeatedly dieing to shield breaker then you are either outnumbered and would die anyway or ya gotta work on your rotation.

Biro123

Well, I don't know what more to say.

I kind of think that bursting someone down during the 5 second duration of a resto ult (without an offensive ult to help you), while outnumbered IS massively outplaying your opponent.

Taking double the damage that viper deals without being able to reduce it IS overpowered.

Surge is nowhere near a useful counter to shieldbreaker damage UNLESS you can continuously attack (is not under pressure in an Xv1 scenario)

I'm not a great player, and I know that. I'm average. There are those that are better and those that are worse. I can sometimes 1vX but not consistently, depending a lot on the opponents.
You can all come up with scenarios where the perfect gameplay can beat it, where your opponents are scrubs, where nobody else attacks you, where you have the right ulti up, a terrain advantage etc. etc. But there are plenty of situations where shieldbreaker in the hands of someone who can simply left-click makes a massive difference to whether you can tank the damage or whether you drop. Way more difference than any single set bonus has a right to make.

Gothren

SirDopey wrote: »

Actually, the more I think about it about, Shieldbreaker needs to be buffed.

Instead of doing 2k damage to a shielded player it should be 2k per active shield. This will really help address the issue of shield stacking and make the game so much more balanced

you haven't been playing this game that long. Am I right?

Sanctum74

I understand your point, but i think gameplay has been evolving with the increase of cp and lag. The damage is much higher now and the lag gives you less time to react.

I used to main a templar and i was able to be a more reactive player meaning if i took damage i would just purge and heal. I never had to use shields or heal over times. Now I find i just cant do that anymore on any class. You need to be proactive by keeping your heal over times and shields up with a good burst combo in between.

I also make sure my magic characters have around 25k health and phys/spell resist. You do sacrifice on your damage and shields a little by doing this but it gives you a nice cushion if/when your shields go down.

I miss the old gameplay of just being able to focus on damage, but unfortunately that has changed and you need to put more into survivability especially with zergs and snipe spammers.

Lexxypwns

Biro123 wrote: »

Well, I don't know what more to say.

I kind of think that bursting someone down during the 5 second duration of a resto ult (without an offensive ult to help you), while outnumbered IS massively outplaying your opponent.

Taking double the damage that viper deals without being able to reduce it IS overpowered.

Surge is nowhere near a useful counter to shieldbreaker damage UNLESS you can continuously attack (is not under pressure in an Xv1 scenario)

I'm not a great player, and I know that. I'm average. There are those that are better and those that are worse. I can sometimes 1vX but not consistently, depending a lot on the opponents.
You can all come up with scenarios where the perfect gameplay can beat it, where your opponents are scrubs, where nobody else attacks you, where you have the right ulti up, a terrain advantage etc. etc. But there are plenty of situations where shieldbreaker in the hands of someone who can simply left-click makes a massive difference to whether you can tank the damage or whether you drop. Way more difference than any single set bonus has a right to make.

I don't think you need an offensive ulti to kill most builds as a sorc. Also, 5 seconds is more time than your burst takes to get off. Considering the player sitting in the back with shieldbreaker is playing a brain dead playstyle you can often melt them easily and quickly. This is not hypothetical, these are real world scenarios, if you're playing your sorc properly you will already be doing the things that counter shieldbreaker anyway.

As for no set being more impactful than shieldbreaker: vicious death, trans, and others have more impact because their effects aren't capped at 1 target. Hell, troll king shuts down shieldbreaker completely rendering it irrelevant.

Edit: boundless procs surge nearly on cool down in outnumbered situations

SirDopey

Gothren wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Actually, the more I think about it about, Shieldbreaker needs to be buffed.

Instead of doing 2k damage to a shielded player it should be 2k per active shield. This will really help address the issue of shield stacking and make the game so much more balanced

you haven't been playing this game that long. Am I right?

Been here since beta. If you can't counter shield breaker L2P, it really is that simple

pieratsos

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you are repeatedly dieing to shield breaker then you are either outnumbered and would die anyway

This reminds me something wrobel said. If multiple people use poisons on you its ok cause you would die anyway. I guess you think poisons are ok too? How about we make everything go through block, mitigations, shields, reflects. Make procs crit again and double their dmg. If u are outnumbered you would die anw so whats the point of counters. Right?

Sanctum74

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you are repeatedly dieing to shield breaker then you are either outnumbered and would die anyway

This reminds me something wrobel said. If multiple people use poisons on you its ok cause you would die anyway. I guess you think poisons are ok too? How about we make everything go through block, mitigations, shields, reflects. Make procs crit again and double their dmg. If u are outnumbered you would die anw so whats the point of counters. Right?

Nope, never use poisons and think they should be removed from game. Im not saying you should always die outnumbered, but if someone is dieing from a weak set like shieldbreaker then yes they are either outnumbered and would die anyway or they need to work on their rotation. I guess ya forgot to quote that part of my comment lol.

Biro123

Dunno why you think its a weak set when it can double the damage of Viper (which a lot of people seem to think is overpowered) and at range.. with no mitigation..

worsttankever

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm running dampen on my heavy magden... I like it...

I'm don't wanna be a snowflake!

How does that work out?? Thinking of doing the same on my (nonvet) MagDK in heavy.

Sanctum74

I think its a weak set because it can easily be countered/mitigated by heals over time and thats the only thing the set has going for it. Once you focus on that person they usually drop pretty quick.

Waffennacht

worsttankever wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm running dampen on my heavy magden... I like it...

I'm don't wanna be a snowflake!

How does that work out?? Thinking of doing the same on my (nonvet) MagDK in heavy.

@worsttankever I have my doubts for a DK just because Warden has the tools to up the max mag (i.e. Necropotence or Northern Storm) so in no CP I can still manage a very large ward.

If I were to make a suggestion it would be something like Riposte/impregnable + (easy set) Shackle breaker, I'd imagine that's gonna be Uber hard to kill with some very strong stats.

Miruku

Magıc wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

It's capped at what it says on the tooltip on the set. Only way to increase it is by golding outyour gear I assume.

Cancerous set anyway. I hope every sorc you fight destroys you for using that garbage set.

Cancerous because sorcs complete negate hots/health recovery due to op shield stacking over lapping healing ward.

Mag sorcs are the only class that can do it all. Insane sustain (lich), insane tankiness with shields and still deal crazy damage in 7 light.

Once proc sets are nerfed.. its gonna be mag sorc or nothing.

Insane tankiness with 1 shield? Yeah okay. Like I and MANY others have said before, Harness has become a dead skill and so has bastion CP star. It's why no class is running harness apart from sorc rerollers who think stacking shields will make them gods.

If you and others can't get through just hardened ward it's either a L2P issue or your gear setup is garbage. I'm predicting it's a L2P issue.

Plz these are lowly console plebeians who cannot stamblade do not try and teach them the logic.

pieratsos

Sanctum74 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you are repeatedly dieing to shield breaker then you are either outnumbered and would die anyway

This reminds me something wrobel said. If multiple people use poisons on you its ok cause you would die anyway. I guess you think poisons are ok too? How about we make everything go through block, mitigations, shields, reflects. Make procs crit again and double their dmg. If u are outnumbered you would die anw so whats the point of counters. Right?

Nope, never use poisons and think they should be removed from game. Im not saying you should always die outnumbered, but if someone is dieing from a weak set like shieldbreaker then yes they are either outnumbered and would die anyway or they need to work on their rotation. I guess ya forgot to quote that part of my comment lol.

I quoted the important part cause its borderline stupid thinking and its the exact same thing as poisons. You dont get to agree with just one of them cause they are the same and if u do its because you are biased.

Just because you are outnumbered and you may die anw it doesnt mean that poisons are fine. Its a *** mechanic and shieldbreaker is the same thing. Just because you may die when you are outnumbered it doesnt mean shieldbreaker is fine. The point isnt whether you die or not. The point is how you die. If i die cause i got outplayed then fine. I tried i fought and lost. I was outnumbered so my chances were low anw. But if i die not because i got outplayed but because of someone sitting behind other people spamming left click then yes you have a problem there. Thats why cyro is so zergy and solo is on life support in the first place. Because of *** mechanics that remove skill and then its just numbers.

This thread alone is enough to understand how stupid this set is. It was implemented to address shieldstacking. Did it solve shieldstacking? Absolutely [snip] not. The only thing it accomplished is to create another problem and then you have both sorcs and anti sorcs complaining. And if you actually wanted to put a set in game that counters shields then u make the bonus to do % more dmg to shields. So you still have to actually do something to take their shields down and not just spam left click.

When something is broken, you fix whats broken. You dont use something else just as broken to fix it. Its common sense that its not going to work

Waffennacht

I would look at shield breaker/oblivion DMG/knightslayer like this:

2,000 DMG in PvP is the equivalent of 4k DMG tool tip
Oblivion DMG (from my understanding) is not reduced by armor/mitigation
Meaning for an average Joe of 10k resistance (just an average guess after average debuffs) it bypasses 16% mitigation

Meaning an equivalent DMG equal to approximately 4600 tooltip on average

Now it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say free damage that bypasses internal cool down mechanics is bad for the game and then say shield breaker is ok because it's more niche.

I believe all these sets have a place in PvP, but I do not like the absolute efficiency they have now

Biro123

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would look at shield breaker/oblivion DMG/knightslayer like this:

2,000 DMG in PvP is the equivalent of 4k DMG tool tip
Oblivion DMG (from my understanding) is not reduced by armor/mitigation
Meaning for an average Joe of 10k resistance (just an average guess after average debuffs) it bypasses 16% mitigation

Meaning an equivalent DMG equal to approximately 4600 tooltip on average

Now it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say free damage that bypasses internal cool down mechanics is bad for the game and then say shield breaker is ok because it's more niche.

I believe all these sets have a place in PvP, but I do not like the absolute efficiency they have now

That's the point.

Over 4 seconds, that's 18400. Imagine if viper had an 18400 tooltip, worked from range and bypassed your main defence.

Lexxypwns

Biro123 wrote: »

Dunno why you think its a weak set when it can double the damage of Viper (which a lot of people seem to think is overpowered) and at range.. with no mitigation..

It does double the dps of viper at maximum output. It's 1/4 the burst though. Burst is why viper is threatening

Biro123

I just can't agree that 4.8k over every 2 seconds is less dangerous than 4.8k once every 4 seconds.

I can deal with the viper/selene/incap burst, don't use them(very often), but neither do I complain about them because I think the balance is OK there. Not shieldbreaker though.

Lexxypwns

Biro123 wrote: »

I just can't agree that 4.8k over every 2 seconds is less dangerous than 4.8k once every 4 seconds.

I can deal with the viper/selene/incap burst, don't use them(very often), but neither do I complain about them because I think the balance is OK there. Not shieldbreaker though.

Shieldbreaker doesn't do 4.8k damage per proc though.

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I just can't agree that 4.8k over every 2 seconds is less dangerous than 4.8k once every 4 seconds.

I can deal with the viper/selene/incap burst, don't use them(very often), but neither do I complain about them because I think the balance is OK there. Not shieldbreaker though.

Shieldbreaker doesn't do 4.8k damage per proc though.

It deals 2150ish which equals roughly 4.8 tooltip (comparison) per proc (which can be per sec)

Viper says 6720 which in PvP is roughly 3860 per proc (depending on resist) per 4 seconds

So in PvP it boils down to:
2000ish damage up to per sec via LA and dependant on shielded opponent
Vs.
3860 per 4 sec independent of what opponent or abilities incorporated (but also dependant on enemy resistance)

In a comparison.

The niche -ness of Breaker is the only variable really.

I again, don't believe in removal, but I do feel the x3 proc set builds are not a l2p issue.

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I just can't agree that 4.8k over every 2 seconds is less dangerous than 4.8k once every 4 seconds.

I can deal with the viper/selene/incap burst, don't use them(very often), but neither do I complain about them because I think the balance is OK there. Not shieldbreaker though.

Shieldbreaker doesn't do 4.8k damage per proc though.

It deals 2150ish which equals roughly 4.8 tooltip (comparison) per proc (which can be per sec)

Viper says 6720 which in PvP is roughly 3860 per proc (depending on resist) per 4 seconds

So in PvP it boils down to:
2000ish damage up to per sec via LA and dependant on shielded opponent
Vs.
3860 per 4 sec independent of what opponent or abilities incorporated (but also dependant on enemy resistance)

In a comparison.

The niche -ness of Breaker is the only variable really.

I again, don't believe in removal, but I do feel the x3 proc set builds are not a l2p issue.

It always deals 1900, the tooltips are bugged and are being buffed by things like cp and beserk buffs.

Still its the same as 3800 tooltip no taking into account armor/cp reduction.

Biro123

No, its always 2200. I think the oblivion enchant is 1900.

Waffennacht

Biro123 wrote: »

No, its always 2200. I think the oblivion enchant is 1900.

Ok... The exact number doesn't matter (300 DMG) the math is still pretty accurate