Shield breaker Damage

montiferus · June 2017

Magıc wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

It's capped at what it says on the tooltip on the set. Only way to increase it is by golding outyour gear I assume.

Cancerous set anyway. I hope every sorc you fight destroys you for using that garbage set.

Cancerous because sorcs complete negate hots/health recovery due to op shield stacking over lapping healing ward.

Mag sorcs are the only class that can do it all. Insane sustain (lich), insane tankiness with shields and still deal crazy damage in 7 light.

Once proc sets are nerfed.. its gonna be mag sorc or nothing.

Insane tankiness with 1 shield? Yeah okay. Like I and MANY others have said before, Harness has become a dead skill and so has bastion CP star. It's why no class is running harness apart from sorc rerollers who think stacking shields will make them gods.

If you and others can't get through just hardened ward it's either a L2P issue or your gear setup is garbage. I'm predicting it's a L2P issue.

Trash player confirmed

leepalmer95 · June 2017

2 decent players will rip a sorc shields.

If your struggling with more then the players your with are all likely tanks/ healers or noobs with no damage.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

2 decent players will rip a sorc shields.

If your struggling with more then the players your with are all likely tanks/ healers or noobs with no damage.

Two decent players will rip anyone 2v1. The issue some have is that Sorc's are neigh invincible 1v1 with shields, while having amazing mobility and massive burst. Sorc's are less strong compared to pre-morrowind but they are still one of the strongest damage builds in PVP.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

2 decent players will rip a sorc shields.

If your struggling with more then the players your with are all likely tanks/ healers or noobs with no damage.

Two decent players will rip anyone 2v1. The issue some have is that Sorc's are neigh invincible 1v1 with shields, while having amazing mobility and massive burst. Sorc's are less strong compared to pre-morrowind but they are still one of the strongest damage builds in PVP.

So they're strong in 1v1... so are mag/stam dk's and stamplars.

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, when do you usually find a 1v1 fight? and it doesn't get interrupted in open pvp.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

2 decent players will rip a sorc shields.

If your struggling with more then the players your with are all likely tanks/ healers or noobs with no damage.

Two decent players will rip anyone 2v1. The issue some have is that Sorc's are neigh invincible 1v1 with shields, while having amazing mobility and massive burst. Sorc's are less strong compared to pre-morrowind but they are still one of the strongest damage builds in PVP.

So they're strong in 1v1... so are mag/stam dk's and stamplars.

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, when do you usually find a 1v1 fight? and it doesn't get interrupted in open pvp.

In Cyrodiil and in BG's, Sorc's are stronger than DK's or Templars in 1v1 precisely because it will get interrupted and the Sorc shields allow them the time to maneuver, the Sorc streak allows them the ability to run, and the Sorc execute allows for them to get easy kills on targets that are taking a little extra damage.

In pure dueling Sorc's are not OP. In pure group play Sorc's are not OP. In everything in between Mag Sorc's are amazing and possibly the best magicka class.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

pieratsos · June 2017

Shieldstacking is a problem. Dont address shieldstacking. Just ask for sorc nerfs, praise every bullsh*t set in the game that requires no skill and solves absolutely nothing and ask for more sets like that.
No wonder PVP is so crap with feedback like that.

SodanTok · June 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

Hard to disagree with you without sounding like sorc hater, but I have yet see any decent sorc that is out of magicka after chasing him from like one keep to another. And without using gapcloser or mount, you as stamina will always arrive completly depleted (if you even manage to catch him).

Also lol at sorc execute. It is freakin good.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

Hard to disagree with you without sounding like sorc hater, but I have yet see any decent sorc that is out of magicka after chasing him from like one keep to another. And without using gapcloser or mount, you as stamina will always arrive completly depleted (if you even manage to catch him).

Also lol at sorc execute. It is freakin good.

Sprinting vs cost increase streak? If your a stamina build and you don't have a gap closer thats your choice to be honest.

If your in medium you get sprint speed bonus, it's quite easy to catch them.

Sure they could dark conversion but if they do that they aren't streaking which means you could catch them. Plus they'd be low of stamina.

Though if you manage to gap close them after the first streak they aren't going anymore.

SodanTok · June 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

Hard to disagree with you without sounding like sorc hater, but I have yet see any decent sorc that is out of magicka after chasing him from like one keep to another. And without using gapcloser or mount, you as stamina will always arrive completly depleted (if you even manage to catch him).

Also lol at sorc execute. It is freakin good.

Sprinting vs cost increase streak? If your a stamina build and you don't have a gap closer thats your choice to be honest.

If your in medium you get sprint speed bonus, it's quite easy to catch them.

Sure they could dark conversion but if they do that they aren't streaking which means you could catch them. Plus they'd be low of stamina.

Though if you manage to gap close them after the first streak they aren't going anymore.

Well, you said sprint after them. Also not in every scenario you can gap close. Sorc streaks twice suddenly and they are out of gapcloser range, then they LoS, streak again, and again and you can easily find yourself unable to ever get the gap closer opening. Well, obviously by that you should already mount up (but sometimes you are just forever incombat)

Also they dont run out of stamina. Now less than ever.
(FYI During chase while you are springing, your stamina gain is negative, while their regen is working fine and without ranged CC they have unlimited supply)

pieratsos · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

Hard to disagree with you without sounding like sorc hater, but I have yet see any decent sorc that is out of magicka after chasing him from like one keep to another. And without using gapcloser or mount, you as stamina will always arrive completly depleted (if you even manage to catch him).

Also lol at sorc execute. It is freakin good.

Sprinting vs cost increase streak? If your a stamina build and you don't have a gap closer thats your choice to be honest.

If your in medium you get sprint speed bonus, it's quite easy to catch them.

Sure they could dark conversion but if they do that they aren't streaking which means you could catch them. Plus they'd be low of stamina.

Though if you manage to gap close them after the first streak they aren't going anymore.

Well, you said sprint after them. Also not in every scenario you can gap close. Sorc streaks twice suddenly and they are out of gapcloser range, then they LoS, streak again, and again and you can easily find yourself unable to ever get the gap closer opening. Well, obviously by that you should already mount up (but sometimes you are just forever incombat)

Also they dont run out of stamina. Now less than ever.
(FYI During chase while you are springing, your stamina gain is negative, while their regen is working fine and without ranged CC they have unlimited supply)

Streak after 3-4 casts is gonna cost like 7k. Regen isnt going do anything to cover that.

On paper streak looks like a guaranteed escape but in reality when u really want to gtfo, u will be bombed with snares, roots, chains, gap closers, resource poisons and all the good stuff. So if you try to use streak to escape you aint going nowhere and half the time you are just delaying the inevitable. You will run out of resources and die.Your best option is to use streak from LOS to LOS, reposition and try to pick them off one by one when they are scattered.

Mayrael · June 2017

Mwahaha... Shieldbreaker? Funny set, easy to counter but its anoying as f**k in large battles when there is 50v50 try to locate this braindead spamer. But... You realy have problems to kill mag sorcs? xD Rofl. Its not about class but about player skill. My magplar is twice as tanky as my magsorc and still can kill casual magsorcs. Even more. I can kill magsorc (rank 30) with stamblade (rank 40) on my back, and than kill that stamblade. Also my magplar cannot be killed by two rank 50 magsorcs

Problem? L2P.

Tldr: shieldbreaker can be countered, magsorcs can be killed without it, magplar is a [snip] monster...

Biro123 · June 2017

People talk about light-attack spamming shieldbreaker wearers... I didn't believe it till last night, where it was just a constant plink,plink,plink... from this guy not even woven with any abilities... just constant bow light-attack/shieldbreaker procs..

Dunno how he thinks he'd kill anyone like that.. Especially a sorc with a flappy-bird following him around..

Dovahmiim · June 2017

Did you all know that shield breaker procs on all ticks of a heavy channel attack? Like with resto and shock staves. Did you also all know that currently in open world PvP and duels on PC NA, stam builds are dominating? Almost all good magsorcs have switched to using just 1 shield, as without necropotence harness is not worth the slot. If you can't get through a 10k dmg shield without resorting to zergtools like shield breaker, you may need to have a look on YouTube for a new build, or perhaps practice your dueling skills in Stormhaven!

Reminder that if your justification for shield breaker is something along the lines of "Well if its that big of a deal, run rapid regen to counter it!", you are essentially saying that Sorcs should give up a much needed skill slot to counter the off chance situation where they encounter an Xv1 player spamming light attacks with shield breaker.

Another potential justification is that sorcs can spam shields forever, which is no longer true due to sustain changes this patch. Also worthy of mention is that other mag classes are capable of getting a dmg shield just as big as Sorcs if they have access to necropotence or slot inner light, and are wearing 5 light armour pieces.

I main a magDK caster build that uses dampen magicka shield, of slightly higher strength than my Sorc's shield, is shield breaker spam justified against me as well?

Universe · June 2017

Command line:
DELETE Shield Breaker set.

True

Sanctum74 · June 2017

Sorc threads are always so amusing. Mention their shields, incredible burst damage, and easy escape tools and all you hear is L2P or git gud, but then any tiny little nerf or an underperforming situational set like shield breaker and its the end of the world.

Get over it! Your still king of the hill. Other classes have to make choices on what weapons or skills they have to slot and there is no reason sorcs should be any different. Not to mention you have 3 skill bars to choose from.

If you are repeatedly dieing to shieldbreaker then you need to work on your build and situational awareness. Removing a set from a game is not going to make you any better.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

Biro123 · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

On movement, you can't constantly streak to escape - there is the gcd between streaks where to have any chance of escaping anyone with a gap-closer, sorc has to roll/dodge and/or sprint between streaks. This is a massive drain on a magsorc's low stamina - and usually a death-sentence if any CC lands - in addition to the massive drain on mag that repeated streaking gives.. you can't dark-exchange to recover mag - because you have no stam to fuel it.
But then if the sorc got lucky and HAS got out of gap-close rnage - he has escaped.. its kind of stupid to go sprinting after him then, as you NEED a gapcloser to do it (unless you're built for mobility too?) - but if you do, the ones you see being able to shield-up and attack back have simply built for more sustain than you - and have just popped a pot..

I have multiple builds on my magsorc... one has mobility and sustain - but 30k burst will mash through those shields and my health bar in no time..
One has massive shields, poor mobility and not great sustain and will survive a 30k burst - but I guarantee won't be able to outrun/out-sustain the average stam build.

People need to stop assuming that one build does everything..

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

Biro123 · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 10k heal to RESTORE it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 5k heal to RESTORE it.

In either case a shield is better than healing.

Waffennacht · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 10k heal to RESTORE it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 5k heal to RESTORE it.

In either case a shield is better than healing.

But you had to pre cast the shield in this case meaning even though the heal comes later it's entire amount is used while a shield expires.

In your case I need a 10k shield to prevent 5k damage or a 5k heal to prevent 5k damage, making the heal more efficient.

Mitigation+heal is better than shield

But quite frankly, I like using both

Lexxypwns · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 10k heal to RESTORE it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 5k heal to RESTORE it.

In either case a shield is better than healing.

But you had to pre cast the shield in this case meaning even though the heal comes later it's entire amount is used while a shield expires.

In your case I need a 10k shield to prevent 5k damage or a 5k heal to prevent 5k damage, making the heal more efficient.

Mitigation+heal is better than shield

But quite frankly, I like using both

No question that passive mitigation and heals are superior defense to shields/shield stacking.

Lets take a similar example.

A 10k hit on a 6k damage shield and then 4k to fully penetrated health pool. At this point your already spent 1GCD on casting your shield, instead of applying pressure. You can cast another shield but if the same pattern applies you will eventually die without a heal. Now, you have to find a way to restore health, shield for mitigation, and eventually go back offensive. This will require at least 2GCD and you'll likely need to roll or LoS as well to protect your shield.

A 10k hit on a heavy armor build which has 15% mitigation after pen deals 8500 damage to your health pool. At this point you've already had 1 extra GCD at least over the shield stacker. While you've taken more damage, you're in a stronger position because you currently require 0-1 GCD to continue to fight safely and 1 to reset your health pool.

That's not even mentioning that the pressure relief from mitigation gives you a chance of indirect mitigation. It doesn't matter if you take 99% of your health in damage, if that mitigation saved you and the extra GCDs helped you deliver lethal burst then all of that damage has effectively been mitigated.

Biro123 · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.
.

Jeez, I know that.
Where I say absorb, what I obviously mean as per the context is 'either mitigated by shielding or recovered by healing so that the end result in either case is full health', but it's a bit of a mouthful and I thought you would have understood.

Instead you are deliberately missing the point to try to push your failing argument.

You're not a lawyer are you? Where a ton of small print is required to specify exact meanings and exceptions for every statement?

Waffennacht · June 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.
.

Jeez, I know that.
Where I say absorb, what I obviously mean as per the context is 'either mitigated by shielding or recovered by healing so that the end result in either case is full health', but it's a bit of a mouthful and I thought you would have understood.

Instead you are deliberately missing the point to try to push your failing argument.

You're not a lawyer are you? Where a ton of small print is required to specify exact meanings and exceptions for every statement?

I mean, how can he argue that one thing (a shield in this case) is better than two things (mitigation and heal)?

I mean if it was on the same character it's obvious a heal for the same amount as a shield is better.

The only way to have it not be better would be if you had to choose between a heal and an even bigger shield, but at equal values it's just logic.

SirDopey · June 2017

Can we get back on tract and tell the world what you need to do to get more than 2.1k damage? Does upgrading to gold give more, if so how much?

XD

Toc de Malsvi · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 10k heal to RESTORE it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 5k heal to RESTORE it.

In either case a shield is better than healing.

But you had to pre cast the shield in this case meaning even though the heal comes later it's entire amount is used while a shield expires.

In your case I need a 10k shield to prevent 5k damage or a 5k heal to prevent 5k damage, making the heal more efficient.

Mitigation+heal is better than shield

But quite frankly, I like using both

That 5k damage could be what kills you and you never get the heal. With the shield you do not take the damage so you don't die. Despite your insistence that you know the difference you keep saying things as "5k heal to prevent 5k damage" when heals cannot prevent damage. You are still arguing against shields in isolation as if no other healing or recovery is happening outside of a damage shield.

Given a player with 20k health and 50% mitigation has the option to do damage, heal, and or shield for 10k before being attacked. Player takes 30k burst.

With a shield they take 5k damage after mitigation and are at 15k or 75% health, easily gained back with hots, recovery, or healing ward. If they are CC'd at this time it doesn't matter because they are no where near death, their opponent needs another 30k burst to kill them.

Without a shield they take 15k damage after mitigation and are at 5k or 25% health and are in execute range. If they are CC'd at this time their opponent only needs 10k burst which is easily accessible because they are in execute range so their opponent has an attack that will do 300% of normal damage 3-4k and kill them.

Heal's are absolutely more efficient provided you have the opportunity to heal, shields are more proficient because they act as active mitigation to prevent damage before it happens. If you can shield before damage is taken the likely hood of survival is much greater than if you wait to heal after damage is already taken.

SodanTok · June 2017

SirDopey wrote: »

Can we get back on tract and tell the world what you need to do to get more than 2.1k damage? Does upgrading to gold give more, if so how much?

XD

Nothing. Once it is gold you reached max. And 2.1k is gold value already (~2150)

Waffennacht · June 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@leepalmer95

Don't get me wrong it is a balance problem. Shields create a pinnacle, either they are too weak and virtually worthless, or they are too strong and virtually OP. The nature of Shield stacking allows for magSorc's to get the best of all worlds, great defense, great mobility, great damage. Which leads to complaints by those who are up against them.

But the nature of healing allows magplars to get great damage and then crit heal 12k breath of lifes. Its the same for all classes, damage = heals.

Shields have a big drop off effect in terms of efficiency depending of the amount of players. Streaks not a bad skill and allows them some mobility but its a lot cheaper for a medium build to sprint after a sorc and catch up (they will easily) and then finish a sorc because the sorc will be out of magicka.

Any stamina build has better mobility than mag sorc because of shuffle dodge, shuffle snare purge and roll dodge. Outside of death match bgs the sorc execute is one of the worst in the game. Lowest threshold, can be purged, rolled, both damage blocked, sometimes it doesn't even finish them off.

No it's not the same because of how shields are different than heals. Shields prevent damage, heals bring back health that is already lost. 30k burst will kill most targets, but its not going to kill a shield stacking Sorc, it will hurt it sure, but its not going to kill it. To add to that what was 30k burst against a non shielded target is only 20-25k against a shielded target because of the lack of critical hits.

Preventative mitigation is always better than healing.

It is simply not true that sprint is cheaper than streaking. Gap closing is cheaper than streaking but sprint is not. Only way that is possible is if you are wearing well fitted or some set to reduce sprint costs. Almost all of my builds are 6-7 medium and I routinely run out of stamina chasing streaking sorc's, who still have enough magicka to stop shield up and turn and curse me as I arrive completely out of resources. The only way it compares is if you are using a speed pot, which a mag Sorc can just as easily use and sprint between double casted streaks.

Claiming the Sorc execute is one of the worst in the game? You must be joking. When targets are more than 5m away how is any of the stam melee executes going to kill them? Gap closing means they get time to cast a heal.

Purge it? That is a losing battle every time. Base cost Mages Fury: 2430 Cleansing Ritual: 3780. You will run them out of magicka if they attempt to purge your execute every time you apply. Efficient Purge is 5400 base it's even worse.

Mages Fury acts as a passive execute after application, meaning you don't have to cast it at the time of the targets health getting low it will just go off. The only other skill that acts as a passive execute after application is Poison Injection. Poison Injection does not instantly tick and kill the target when their health drops below 20% or even 5%. It can tick, but its not guaranteed to tick before they can heal. Poison Injection ticks do not hit anywhere near as hard as Mages Fury, the whole dot damage is more but individual ticks are not.

And this example is just as bad... Heals are more effective when the healed target has higher mitigation.. Shields are not. That 30k burst against a light armour, no-impen shield-user is closer to 15k against a heavy armour, fill-impen wearer - which can be healed back. And that's assuming there was no other mitigation like block... (we are assuming that the shield user knows there is incoming hence he has a shield up....)

Preventative mitigation like this is VERY resource-intensive, unlike healing which is only used when its needed.

No heals are not more effective, shields are more mitigation and greatly increase the mitigation of that already high mitigation target. The only case to argue that healing is better than shields is if you view shields in isolation and pretend that no other forms of passive healing or health recovery exist. Otherwise shielding before damage is taken is ALWAYS better than healing after damage is taken.

Shielding not only provides direct mitigation, it also provides critical impunity for its duration or up to the value of its strength. Impen does not provide crit impunity even when maxed, impen provides a reduction to the strength of critical hits. Critical hits will still always hit for more than non crits, except against shields where they cease to exist.

Shielding is more resource intensive and with good measure. Shielding does not require damage to be taken because it is not healing it is direct mitigation. Healing requires damage to be taken. A shield at 100% health is still worth while, a heal at 100% health is useless. A shield at 5% health is just as valuable as a heal at 5% health for up to 6 seconds.

No.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 10k heal to absorb it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation, you need a 10k shield or a 5k heal to absorb it.

Heals scale better with more mitigation.

A heal at 5% is much more effective than a shield at 5% - it takes you out of execute range.

Yes, it is better not to take the damage in the first place - as per shields, but heals+mitigation scales much better to give much more survivability vs multiple opponents than shields+mitigation.

Heals don't absorb, heals restore health from damage that is already DONE. Shields absorb damage before its done.

You take a 10k hit with 0 mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 10k heal to RESTORE it.
You take a 10k hit with 50% mitigation and a 10k shield and you are at 100% health, without a shield you need a 5k heal to RESTORE it.

In either case a shield is better than healing.

But you had to pre cast the shield in this case meaning even though the heal comes later it's entire amount is used while a shield expires.

In your case I need a 10k shield to prevent 5k damage or a 5k heal to prevent 5k damage, making the heal more efficient.

Mitigation+heal is better than shield

But quite frankly, I like using both

That 5k damage could be what kills you and you never get the heal. With the shield you do not take the damage so you don't die. Despite your insistence that you know the difference you keep saying things as "5k heal to prevent 5k damage" when heals cannot prevent damage. You are still arguing against shields in isolation as if no other healing or recovery is happening outside of a damage shield.

Given a player with 20k health and 50% mitigation has the option to do damage, heal, and or shield for 10k before being attacked. Player takes 30k burst.

With a shield they take 5k damage after mitigation and are at 15k or 75% health, easily gained back with hots, recovery, or healing ward. If they are CC'd at this time it doesn't matter because they are no where near death, their opponent needs another 30k burst to kill them.

Without a shield they take 15k damage after mitigation and are at 5k or 25% health and are in execute range. If they are CC'd at this time their opponent only needs 10k burst which is easily accessible because they are in execute range so their opponent has an attack that will do 300% of normal damage 3-4k and kill them.

Heal's are absolutely more efficient provided you have the opportunity to heal, shields are more proficient because they act as active mitigation to prevent damage before it happens. If you can shield before damage is taken the likely hood of survival is much greater than if you wait to heal after damage is already taken.

Let's take your exact example of 20k health, 50% mitigation and a 10k ward vs a 10k heal
10k ward brings the remaining damage to 20k DMG 50% mitigation leaves 10k DMG leaving player with 10k health.

20k health with 50% mitigation means player takes 15k DMG leaving him at 5k and then heals for 10k leaving him at 15k health

Player without ward has 5k more health than player with ward.

Add as many variables as you want, as long as you apply them equally you still come to the same conclusion. Heal + Mitigation is better.

If more actions occur after your example (such as you pointing out a CC) well then you need to apply that to the shield user as he now cannot re cast and is equally dead.

Edit: Let's do any example of 20k health 50% mitigation and a 40k DMG burst. Our non shield user is dead... (Never got to heal) Our Ward user is at 5k health. This is the only instance where the shield is better - when the damage is higher than the health pool + mitigation (this is a VERY narrow area in which the preactive shield is superior - the range of which is 40k to 49k DMG any less and the heal is stronger, anymore and both are dead)

So out of 0-50k DMG only 40-49 or roughly 20% of the possible scenarios, a ward is better