Spinner's Vs War-Maiden for PvP?

LegacyDM

Looking for help from the forum warriors math experts. Which do you think is better in non CP PvP? Spinners set or War-Maiden?

I know that in PvE that Sharpened gives up to approximately 12% increased damage as long as you don't hit 0 resistance on Boss Mobs. In PvP non-cp, I think most people are running around 15-20k resistance, some are using shields some not. Those that are running between 20k - 30k are most likely using a shield. Sharpened doesn't work on shields.

I currently have 14144 spell penetration with Spinners, and 10144 without. Sometimes I use Major breach/fracture for an additional 5280.

War Maiden gives 529 additional spell damage + 688 crit and the standard 967 magicka which is = 92 SD.
Spinners gives 967 (x2) which = 184 SD + 129 SD = 313 + approximately 9% since its 4k, on (non-shields as long as resistance doesn't go below 0).

Should I take the 688 crit and 621 SD? My crit is low, currently around 24%.

Or the 9% damage (against no shields) + 313 SD?

What do you guys think? Correct me if my math is off.

Barbaran

always be careful of wording.
"magic damage abilities". are you a sorc?
crushing shock is shock,flame and frost.
fury is shock.
do you want to just buff your curse and frag?
its like atomoton. doesnt reflect on your character sheet, only on your tooltips for select abilities

LegacyDM

Barbaran wrote: »

always be careful of wording.
"magic damage abilities". are you a sorc?
crushing shock is shock,flame and frost.
fury is shock.
do you want to just buff your curse and frag?
its like atomoton. doesnt reflect on your character sheet, only on your tooltips for select abilities

Yeah your right. I realized the wording after I wrote it. I am a NB. I only use magicka NB skills with duel wield.

Araviel2

what else is in your build?
i am guessing war-maiden is what you should go for, but it also depends on what else is in your build since if you go whit WM you probably want to stack some more spellpower in there to get more of a percentage boost from major sorcery.

while spinners might work better whit sustain/defensive sets or rotations that uses allot of wards and mage guild skills (magica+magica)

LegacyDM

So I said f-it and golden out a war maiden set and tested it on the dummy. Spinner edged it out. Meh. This set is overrated.

Knootewoot

LegacyDM wrote: »

So I said f-it and golden out a war maiden set and tested it on the dummy. Spinner edged it out. Meh. This set is overrated.

Why not try it first with a purple warmaiden set vs purple spinner set?

But back on topic... I was saving and looting warmaiden set. But basicly I can just keep to spinner because it is on par?

Asardes

With a lot of people still playing heavy armor in PvP Spinner probably has the edge. I play spinner front bar lich back bar and it hits pretty hard. Spinner also buffs the damage from any offensive monster sets you are wearing by decreasing the target resist.

Biro123

Lots of sorcs in cyro at the mo. War maiden is more effective than spinners vs shields.

Baconlad

USE BOTH!! cause why not

TipsyDrow

As more and more magdk's get impregnapble sets I'm seeing more and more heavy armor, perma blocking magdk's then ever before because they can get all sturdy pieces and still have 2500 impen. I'll stick with spinners to have some semblance of being able to do damage. Also good job on that armor set ZOS......just.....good job.

NightbladeMechanics

Spinner is slightly more damage, but Maiden affects shields. Take your pick.

SanTii.92

Dw nb? I'd go war maiden.

Emma_Overload

TipsyDrow wrote: »

As more and more magdk's get impregnapble sets I'm seeing more and more heavy armor, perma blocking magdk's then ever before because they can get all sturdy pieces and still have 2500 impen. I'll stick with spinners to have some semblance of being able to do damage. Also good job on that armor set ZOS......just.....good job.

I laughed at all the forum "experts" who said this set was going to be useless. Glad to see some confirmation of my suspicions

NightbladeMechanics

Emma_Overload wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

As more and more magdk's get impregnapble sets I'm seeing more and more heavy armor, perma blocking magdk's then ever before because they can get all sturdy pieces and still have 2500 impen. I'll stick with spinners to have some semblance of being able to do damage. Also good job on that armor set ZOS......just.....good job.

I laughed at all the forum "experts" who said this set was going to be useless. Glad to see some confirmation of my suspicions

Heck no. Impregnable is one of if not the highest stat-concentrated sets in the game. I called that it would be a mini-meta when it was first revealed.

As for the OP, I'm pretty sure there's a better set out there for dw than any discussed here. Still testing it.

Malamar1229

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

As more and more magdk's get impregnapble sets I'm seeing more and more heavy armor, perma blocking magdk's then ever before because they can get all sturdy pieces and still have 2500 impen. I'll stick with spinners to have some semblance of being able to do damage. Also good job on that armor set ZOS......just.....good job.

I laughed at all the forum "experts" who said this set was going to be useless. Glad to see some confirmation of my suspicions

Heck no. Impregnable is one of if not the highest stat-concentrated sets in the game. I called that it would be a mini-meta when it was first revealed.

As for the OP, I'm pretty sure there's a better set out there for dw than any discussed here. Still testing it.

Yes. I have yet to get the numbers down, but even on a class like a magicka sorc I wanted to see what the trade off was running this with divines/infused pieces rather than another set in all impen.

genjutsu_kami

HONEST AND TRUTHFULLY

SPINNERS BEATS WAR MAIDEN IN PVP!

WAR MAIDEN BEATS SPINNERS IN PVE!

now youre probably wondering how ive come to this conclusion, well after 1 week of aproximately 115 hours of farming and gamepay i can hand on heart say those statemnets are worthy.

Ill explain...... in pvp most classes have a defence ability which takes thier spell and physical resistant to 20k+ now 5 piece spinners with an inferno sharpen staff and CP set up you can mitigate up too 20k spell resistant, and if you really want to over do it, run elemental drain or mark on NB,

this means all stamina builds running heavy armour or magika build running heavy armour will take additional damage from ALL YOUR ATTACKS (yes all) after over 50 games in battlegrounds and 30hours in cyridill I can tell you now SPINNERS IS BETTER IN PVP, and please do not let anyone tell you any different.

FAULTS - spinners has one fault..... it is not effective on shileds..... this is true however, shields are not permanent and if you do come across a shield stacker you will have to out play them and get thier shileds to drop and either burst or punish.... but that goes without saying when pvping right ? (ritorical question)

WAR MAIDEN - war maiden ONLY BUFFS MAGIKA ABILITIES.... this means FLAME, FROST, LIGHTNING is USELESS with this set, and i can almost gurantee all magika classes will need one of those elementals to do damage, with the exception maybe of a mag sorc (IF YOU ARE RUNNING DUELWIELD) or magNB (because it is possible).

the extra spell damage is good yess but it is VERY VERY WEAK against the SCHATHING MAGE SET which buffs all your damage by giving you a base spell damage boost.

FAULTS- with war maiden you will not be able to burst down or wear down heavy armour tanky builds..... I CAN GURANTEEEEEEE THIS..... you will run out of resources trying, yes you may do more damage to shields however this is only damage buffed by magika damage only!

SO TO CONCLUDE

if you PVP .....SPINNERS IS THE BEST, HANDS DOWN (second to scathing mage imo)

If you PVE ..... WAR MAIDEN IS GOOD.....NOT THE BEST (WAR MAIDEN IS OVER RATED, PLEASE DO NOT SPEND YOURE RESOURCES AND TIME TO FARMING THIS SET UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE A MAGNB WITH NO ELEMENTAL DAMAGE OR MAGSORC.

hope this helps

DeHei

I vote for Juljanos.. It gives all arround stats for Damage and you can create it like you want! Spinners is just good for really tanky guys.

genjutsu_kami

DeHei wrote: »

I vote for Juljanos.. It gives all arround stats for Damage and you can create it like you want! Spinners is just good for really tanky guys.

julianos is still a decent set if your unable to get spinners flame staff in sharpen, true

DeHei

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I vote for Juljanos.. It gives all arround stats for Damage and you can create it like you want! Spinners is just good for really tanky guys.

julianos is still a decent set if your unable to get spinners flame staff in sharpen, true

There are some set, which get trouble with playstyle from opponents. Only Spelldamage, Max Magicka and Reg give you garanted stats, which work for every fight!
Let me explain this: Penetration dont work against shieldstacker and nearly all light armor player use damage migation shields. Krit work allways, but impenetration reduce the kritdamage you get and with the new battlegroundset you able to add much impen to negate the krit damage to zero..
On this way only sets which give Magicka, Spelldamage and maybe Reg are useful. But in reality nobody uses both (shield and impen). You need to find the best combination of all to be able to defeat everybody.

BaByDontHurtMe

OP: I've seen some amazing numbers with infused weapons for Torugs Pact and Overwhelming Set as a dual wield magNB, not my idea; credit due to Sinful Duck streamer.

NightbladeMechanics

Mkay the testing is done.

Spinner remains the highest damage, but its 5pc won't work on shields, naturally. I'm using this now. You will get under a sorc or Harness user's shields with proper play, and when you do, Spinner is your highest burst to one shot them in a cc. Spinner will be a noticeable damage increase without drawback against anyone not outright spamming shields in your face.

Necro is second. I played with Necro for a couple weeks prior to shifting to Spinner. Feels great.

Maiden is third. Slightly less damage than Necro. Not worth running if you're using shade, but is the go-to if you are not using shade and are uncomfortable fighting sorcs.

Julianos is bottom of the raw damage list, but is the most accessible. To put it in perspective, Julianos 5pc is about 70 effective spell damage more than Spinner attacking into a shield. Pretty narrow gap considering your damage jumps by so much the moment you pop through that shield and hit their flesh.

Overwhelming is a sustained damage set whose procs will pull you out of cloak when passing within range of enemies. This is your weakest set for burst damage combos, however it's procs add up. They deal significant sustained damage. I'd favor this set in duels and fights where I can remain unstealthed for extended periods to allow the procs to apply their pressure, wearing an enemy down to where I can combo them. If you're fighting in cramped quarters or when outnumbered, Overwhelming's drawbacks require serious consideration. I do not own Overwhelming myself, but it's been a favorite of mageblades going back to Araxleon dumping on duels during the Imperial City PTS pre-1.7. It just hasn't been easy to acquire and did not drop in impen until One Tamriel. I will add that this is the only dungeon drop on my list for a reason -- they are difficult to combine with the top sustain sets, Amber Plasm and Lich, which are other dungeon sets. Good luck getting weapons for a min/maxed build... Remember that using magicka regen glyphs is really inefficient compared to damage ones. Cost reduction are efficient mathematically, but you still end up with more damage and the same sustain if you build sustain in your 5pc sets and damage from glyphs, mundus, and Undaunted. That's just how the build patterns of this game work. I have my eye on this set, though.

Sharpened Torug's gets an honorable mention. This is what I was testing before shifting to Necro, delaying my reply. The extra damage on weapon glyphs is nice, and doesn't cost resources. It's still behind both Maiden and Necro for overall burst damage in burst combos containing an ult and Merciless, which you should be comboing with. Torug's can eek out more damage in quick trades with only a Concealed Weapon or two, but will yield lower damage in proper combos.

Infused Torug's sucks too much damage out of your abilities to be worth running. This was what I used at the beginning of the patch, before shifting to Sharpened. Infused Torug's received hype from a particular BGs team using it + Viper + Selene's on multiple dual wield stamina characters coordinating simultaneous heavy attacks to one shot targets. We all know who they are. Even they switched back to Sharpened for greater overall damage a long time ago. The math doesn't back Infused up at all. Stop running it. Remember, Sharpened is 8% bonus damage on everything. Your glyphs will not hit for as much as a weak spammable attack, and they also have a cooldown of a few seconds between procs. They simply don't contribute enough damage to justify Infused.

DeHei

BaByDontHurtMe wrote: »

OP: I've seen some amazing numbers with infused weapons for Torugs Pact and Overwhelming Set as a dual wield magNB, not my idea; credit due to Sinful Duck streamer.

i farm overwhelming now too. Its looks like an amazing set

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mkay the testing is done.

Spinner remains the highest damage, but its 5pc won't work on shields, naturally. I'm using this now. You will get under a sorc or Harness user's shields with proper play, and when you do, Spinner is your highest burst to one shot them in a cc. Spinner will be a noticeable damage increase without drawback against anyone not outright spamming shields in your face.

Necro is second. I played with Necro for a couple weeks prior to shifting to Spinner. Feels great.

Maiden is third. Slightly less damage than Necro. Not worth running if you're using shade, but is the go-to if you are not using shade and are uncomfortable fighting sorcs.

Julianos is bottom of the raw damage list, but is the most accessible. To put it in perspective, Julianos 5pc is about 70 effective spell damage more than Spinner attacking into a shield. Pretty narrow gap considering your damage jumps by so much the moment you pop through that shield and hit their flesh.

Sharpened Torug's gets an honorable mention. This is what I was testing before shifting to Necro, delaying my reply. The extra damage on weapon glyphs is nice, and doesn't cost resources. It's still behind both Maiden and Necro for overall burst damage in burst combos containing an ult and Merciless, which you should be comboing with. Torug's can eek out more damage in quick trades with only a Concealed Weapon or two, but will yield lower damage in proper combos.

Infused Torug's sucks too much damage out of your abilities to be worth running. This was what I used at the beginning of the patch, before shifting to Sharpened. Infused Torug's received hype from a particular BGs team using it + Viper + Selene's on multiple dual wield stamina characters coordinating simultaneous heavy attacks to one shot targets. We all know who they are. Even they switched back to Sharpened for greater overall damage a long time ago. The math doesn't back Infused up at all. Stop running it. Remember, Sharpened is 8% bonus damage on everything. Your glyphs will not hit for as much as a weak spammable attack, and they also have a cooldown of a few seconds between procs. They simply don't contribute enough damage to justify Infused.

I am on 11,5k penetration allready without Spinner. I use elemental drain on enemies and wear destrostaff for 10% more resistance ignoring. I tested yesterday a bit between Spinners and Juljanos against a heavy armor weared Stamina Sorc. In relation the difference between this sets wasnt so high.. against light armor targets without shieldspamming i had nearly 15-20% more damage. But i really thing overwhelming is much more powerful overall. Just Spelldamage, Magicka and a nice procc, which should nearly be active all time.

Brutusmax1mus

maiden will be better vs anyone with a shield for sure.

fred4

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Infused Torug's sucks too much damage out of your abilities to be worth running.

Torug's - and I think it may be Infused Torug's - hits for a guaranteed 2964 with an Oblivion damage rune every 2 seconds, or so. What's your take on that?

NightbladeMechanics

fred4 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Infused Torug's sucks too much damage out of your abilities to be worth running.

Torug's - and I think it may be Infused Torug's - hits for a guaranteed 2964 with an Oblivion damage rune every 2 seconds, or so. What's your take on that?

That you're gaining 1k damage over the base (non-Infused, non-Torug's) 1900 damage, so 500 damage per second total, accounting for both the increased damage and the reduced cooldown.

My Concealed Weapon hits for 5k noncrits on average. Light attacks are another 700 or so. Merciless is WAY higher, like 10-12k noncrits. Tether is nearly 10k noncrit.

Let's call light attack weaving Concealed 5700 damage per second. What's another 8% on top of that from Sharpened? 456 damage, and this is conservative math. It'll actually be higher than that due to how the numbers interact.

Add harder hitting abilities into the equation, like when doing an ult + Merc + Concealed kill combo, and Sharpened way outperforms Infused easily. If it didn't, we would have see people using Infused long before now.

Why did Infused see some popularity this patch? Because people were stacking oblivion glyphs with Knight Slayer, and later Viper, during PTS. It's because we got a new heavy attack oblivion damage proc, and people were derping around with oblivion damage builds.

Infused is bad in PvP, and even the PTS cheesers and hardcore BGs team that was known for using Infused Torug's + Knight Slayer/Viper + Selene's heavy attacks have all switched back from Infused to Sharpened. Now I'm telling you guys all the math behind these meta shifts straight up so that you can understand it. Don't be behind the meta.

fred4

I am not running such a build, but I have been unsure how to react when I hear that Shield Breaker / Knight Slayer sound. It sure can be nasty when you're relying on Healing Ward as your only burst heal, and they hit you with this through the shield.

My flame enchant has hit from anything like only 700 to 2,500, according to FTC. It seems attractive that I could hit someone for 1900 or 2964, regardless of their mitigation.

Gotta correct your math, sorry. Non-Torug's, non-Infused, hits for 1900 every 4 seconds, so 475 per second. 4 second cooldown on normal enchants, correct? Torug's Infused hits for 2964 (quoting from memory), with a less than 2 second cooldown, but let's say it's 2 seconds, since we can only land attacks every 1 second or so. That makes 1482 per second. The difference is thus 1K per second, not 500.

Let's say you gave up Spinner's for Torug's and Sharpened for Infused. You've actually lost 16% damage through penetration alone ... it ends up in the ballpark you said it would, that's true. It IS damage that hits through shield and block, though.

fred4

Chelo's comment in this thread is representative of what I see "in real life" when fighting defensive builds:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4308285#Comment_4308285

Note the damage he achieves against a blocking build:

Funnel Health, crit: 1460
Assassin's Will, non-crit: 1836
Impale, crit: 1821

These values are SO far below the 5K range where added penetration starts to outperform the 1K/sec Oblivion damage, gained from Infused Torug's, it's not even funny. Still want to claim a Torug's Pact build fares poorly? HE obviously likes it.

LegacyDM

BaByDontHurtMe wrote: »

OP: I've seen some amazing numbers with infused weapons for Torugs Pact and Overwhelming Set as a dual wield magNB, not my idea; credit due to Sinful Duck streamer.

Thanks, I have a set of overwhelming in impen and used it a long time ago. It was really fun as a dual wield magblade. Unfortunately, since the morrowind changes, dual wield is really obsolete so I have settled with fire destro using 5/riposte, 5/transmutation 1/Shadowrend for magicka recovery.

Based on my play testing Overwhelming and Spinner's are pretty comparable minus the disadvantages @NightbladeMechanics pointed out. After testing, spinners vs war-maiden I would agree that war-maiden is not as good in pvp. I do like the extra +magicka spinners offers over overwhelming +spell damage.

Izaki

With Spinner's you only get a marginal increase in damage over War Maiden (like really marginal). So I'd go for War Maiden.

NightbladeMechanics

fred4 wrote: »

I am not running such a build, but I have been unsure how to react when I hear that Shield Breaker / Knight Slayer sound. It sure can be nasty when you're relying on Healing Ward as your only burst heal, and they hit you with this through the shield.

My flame enchant has hit from anything like only 700 to 2,500, according to FTC. It seems attractive that I could hit someone for 1900 or 2964, regardless of their mitigation.

Gotta correct your math, sorry. Non-Torug's, non-Infused, hits for 1900 every 4 seconds, so 475 per second. 4 second cooldown on normal enchants, correct? Torug's Infused hits for 2964 (quoting from memory), with a less than 2 second cooldown, but let's say it's 2 seconds, since we can only land attacks every 1 second or so. That makes 1482 per second. The difference is thus 1K per second, not 500.

Let's say you gave up Spinner's for Torug's and Sharpened for Infused. You've actually lost 16% damage through penetration alone ... it ends up in the ballpark you said it would, that's true. It IS damage that hits through shield and block, though.

In what world are you hitting a burst combo on someone that lasts longer than two global cooldowns? Account for one enchant in your combo. The person will break free and begin healing, rolling, or shielding before you get another off.

NightbladeMechanics

fred4 wrote: »

Chelo's comment in this thread is representative of what I see "in real life" when fighting defensive builds:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4308285#Comment_4308285

Note the damage he achieves against a blocking build:

Funnel Health, crit: 1460
Assassin's Will, non-crit: 1836
Impale, crit: 1821

These values are SO far below the 5K range where added penetration starts to outperform the 1K/sec Oblivion damage, gained from Infused Torug's, it's not even funny. Still want to claim a Torug's Pact build fares poorly? HE obviously likes it.

Those numbers are abysmal and do not represent a proper mageblade build. He is either attacking right into block, in which case he needs to use fear, or his build has low damage and an improper CP distribution.