Whats the tank meta now?

paulsimonps

SquareSausage wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

When you discuss the penetration stat, do you mean to say that crushing enchant alone, without Alkosh or Torugs, is causing over penetration of enemies?

I'd like to touch on this again.

Would crusher still be enchant to go to for weapon, reckon alkosh would be overkill if ppl are ploughing points into penetration.

On PS4 so dont have access to CP to see how much penetration I would get with new front loading of CP

Trials and Dungeon mobs have 18200 Resistance

Major Breach or Fracture is 5280

2h Sharpened or 2 Dual Sharpened is 5160

Light armor passive gives 4884

Thats a total of 15324, leaving 2876

if you put 33 points into Spell Erosion you would get little over that and reach 100% penetration as long as the target had Ele Drain or Pierce armor applied to them.

Infused Torugs pact gives about a 98-99% up time on Crusher and would buff crusher too 2529. Its what I run now but I might change it.

In my eyes it would only be an improvement to DPS to run ultigen builds or something like Powerful assault on jewelry and weapons if everyone in your team used their Spell Erosion and Piercing to get 100% penetration. If not then I would still recommend Torugs. So unless the majority of all DPS start to use CP set ups with more points into Spell Erosion or Piercing I don't see the tank meta really changing all that much.

SquareSausage

Nice one, cheers paulsimonps

Liofa

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

paulsimonps

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

Oompuh

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

Autolycus

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

A Warden tank can use Subterranean Assault to debuff all adds in one fell swoop, this allows free selection of who gets Crusher and who does not, using Inner Fire as a taunt alternative (which is easy in a high mag regen setup). Does this solve the problem?

In our group, DPS right now are only allocating to Spell Erosion if they are not using Sharpened weapons (with Torug's setup).

paulsimonps

Autolycus wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

A Warden tank can use Subterranean Assault to debuff all adds in one fell swoop, this allows free selection of who gets Crusher and who does not, using Inner Fire as a taunt alternative (which is easy in a high mag regen setup). Does this solve the problem?

In our group, DPS right now are only allocating to Spell Erosion if they are not using Sharpened weapons (with Torug's setup).

That sound's like they are lowering their DPS by doing so, Precies or Nirnhoned will not increase their DPS more than the CP they are losing by trying to compensate for lack of Sharpened with a points into Spell Erosion.

As Liofa said I forgot about the base 100 penetration and so should be closer to 30p and not 33p into spell erosion but even if they try to compensate for just 1h sharpened if they do dual wield it would be 29p to do that and tank would still have to do the rest to buff them to 100% penetration. If its a staff or 2 dual they are trying to compensate for its 86p. Either way doesn't seem very effective. The 30/33p into it but getting 100% penetration on all things with tank running something else to buff damage seems the better option. But again, I would really like some math first before I speak of it like its the new meta or something.

paulsimonps

Oompuh wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

You would still want Ebon in there so either Ebon+Tavas, Ebon+Dragon or Ebon+PA for Main tank. And considering "main" tank is not close enough to the rest of the group on the assembly general most of the time, PA doesn't seem to be the better one, and a lot of the bosses hit somewhat slow and not all things can be dodge so maybe I will brush off my Dragon again :P

Liofa

paulsimonps wrote: »

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

Yeah , I think that's the only thing you can't prevent , that's true . My issue is , for example , when DDs go to middle to kill adds on 4th boss , I am not doing anything . I can't apply Crusher on adds , my penetration bonuses on boss doesn't do any work , I am sacrificing a lot . Even if they don't go anywhere , in most fights , I will have to taunt something else and I won't be able to keep Crusher up just on boss itself . On the other hand , ultigen builds work almost in every situation , doesn't matter what is happening . There is almost always something to dodge . Especially in new trial , oh god , those blade traps . I love them with all my heart . Dodging through them procs Tava's ^^ How crazy is that My warhorn is almost ready when we pull the next trash pack ^^

I completely agree with the whole ''convince other players to spend their CP to penetration'' .

Oompuh wrote: »

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

That's exactly how we did the new trial . Ultigen builds . I was using Ebon+Tava+BS as main , Tava+Dragon+BS on off tank .

About Powerful Assault , that was my first thought on off-tank but the problem is , the 5 piece bonus is not guaranteed on DDs . It only applies to 4 people with 1 cast of Vigor . And it is kinda hard to run around and spam it to give Assault buff to everyone . Like , you can cast it and give the buff to yourself , main tank and both healers . This can happen . It is a set of RNG sadly . If sustain was as good as Homestead , surely it would be good but in this patch , I don't think so .

Autolycus

paulsimonps wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

A Warden tank can use Subterranean Assault to debuff all adds in one fell swoop, this allows free selection of who gets Crusher and who does not, using Inner Fire as a taunt alternative (which is easy in a high mag regen setup). Does this solve the problem?

In our group, DPS right now are only allocating to Spell Erosion if they are not using Sharpened weapons (with Torug's setup).

That sound's like they are lowering their DPS by doing so, Precies or Nirnhoned will not increase their DPS more than the CP they are losing by trying to compensate for lack of Sharpened with a points into Spell Erosion.

As Liofa said I forgot about the base 100 penetration and so should be closer to 30p and not 33p into spell erosion but even if they try to compensate for just 1h sharpened if they do dual wield it would be 29p to do that and tank would still have to do the rest to buff them to 100% penetration. If its a staff or 2 dual they are trying to compensate for its 86p. Either way doesn't seem very effective. The 30/33p into it but getting 100% penetration on all things with tank running something else to buff damage seems the better option. But again, I would really like some math first before I speak of it like its the new meta or something.

Right, this is not any DPS giving up a sharpened weapon for a precise one. But I don't want to convolute that part of my comment, as it wasn't my main point. I was basically saying with that part that we're seeing Spell Erosion as a secondary option to tanks running debuffs still.

I'm interested in the former question, if you don't mind. Warden tank with Subterranean Assault allows for selection of who gets Crusher. Does that solve the problem that @Liofa (and maybe either of you can comment on this) mentioned earlier? I was wondering about potential drawbacks to that. Warden's kit allows for a strong Maim uptime on trash too without weapon skills to proc Crusher. I don't see any problems as far as having room for it on the bar but I might be missing something? I think this supports Torug setup quite well but again I might be missing something. On the other hand, you guys either don't use Wardens or have them as OT, yeah? So maybe your Warden (if you have one) isn't running this gear.

Oompuh

Liofa wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Only thing in Halls I can think of that would prevent you from applying the chrusher to the boss that is not preventable is the generals uppercut, or am I missing something? I know that positrox and negatrix can knock you down and the others have to release you but as long as you block that attack you won't be knocked down.

For Trash I totally get it and for those doing score runs that is important. But unless you go for score I think its ok to not have it there. But I also agree that if DPS did the penetration by themselves things would be easier on me.

My question is, math wise, is it more DPS putting your points like that with Spell erosion? I think it is but for me its not about convinsing me but to convince other players that are DPS's to start applying their CP like that. Cause obviously as a tank I could run Tavas, Dragon or Powerful assault instead and as you said use the weakening enchant instead of crusher.

Yeah , I think that's the only thing you can't prevent , that's true . My issue is , for example , when DDs go to middle to kill adds on 4th boss , I am not doing anything . I can't apply Crusher on adds , my penetration bonuses on boss doesn't do any work , I am sacrificing a lot . Even if they don't go anywhere , in most fights , I will have to taunt something else and I won't be able to keep Crusher up just on boss itself . On the other hand , ultigen builds work almost in every situation , doesn't matter what is happening . There is almost always something to dodge . Especially in new trial , oh god , those blade traps . I love them with all my heart . Dodging through them procs Tava's ^^ How crazy is that My warhorn is almost ready when we pull the next trash pack ^^

I completely agree with the whole ''convince other players to spend their CP to penetration'' .

Oompuh wrote: »

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

That's exactly how we did the new trial . Ultigen builds . I was using Ebon+Tava+BS as main , Tava+Dragon+BS on off tank .

About Powerful Assault , that was my first thought on off-tank but the problem is , the 5 piece bonus is not guaranteed on DDs . It only applies to 4 people with 1 cast of Vigor . And it is kinda hard to run around and spam it to give Assault buff to everyone . Like , you can cast it and give the buff to yourself , main tank and both healers . This can happen . It is a set of RNG sadly . If sustain was as good as Homestead , surely it would be good but in this patch , I don't think so .

Yeah, I see your point. Sadly, we dont have many options when it comes to increases the groups RAW spell and weapon damage, just spc and pa I believe. With pen leaving the scene, our options are so limited. Maybe pumping out warhorns as fast as you get them is the best option here, if not the only option when it comes to reliable group dps boots.

Oompuh

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

You would still want Ebon in there so either Ebon+Tavas, Ebon+Dragon or Ebon+PA for Main tank. And considering "main" tank is not close enough to the rest of the group on the assembly general most of the time, PA doesn't seem to be the better one, and a lot of the bosses hit somewhat slow and not all things can be dodge so maybe I will brush off my Dragon again :P

Yeah, one has to wear ebon. Im on Xbox so I cant speak for the new trial at all, but Ultigen seems to be the only reliable option.

WalksonGraves

Oompuh wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

You would still want Ebon in there so either Ebon+Tavas, Ebon+Dragon or Ebon+PA for Main tank. And considering "main" tank is not close enough to the rest of the group on the assembly general most of the time, PA doesn't seem to be the better one, and a lot of the bosses hit somewhat slow and not all things can be dodge so maybe I will brush off my Dragon again :P

Yeah, one has to wear ebon. Im on Xbox so I cant speak for the new trial at all, but Ultigen seems to be the only reliable option.

If this is true then NB is the new meta tank since we can generate far more ult than a dk can by a wide margin. I'm starting to like Morrowind.

paulsimonps

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

You would still want Ebon in there so either Ebon+Tavas, Ebon+Dragon or Ebon+PA for Main tank. And considering "main" tank is not close enough to the rest of the group on the assembly general most of the time, PA doesn't seem to be the better one, and a lot of the bosses hit somewhat slow and not all things can be dodge so maybe I will brush off my Dragon again :P

Yeah, one has to wear ebon. Im on Xbox so I cant speak for the new trial at all, but Ultigen seems to be the only reliable option.

If this is true then NB is the new meta tank since we can generate far more ult than a dk can by a wide margin. I'm starting to like Morrowind.

Hehe yea no, NB is not new tank meta cause of that, Ulti builds on DKs have been a thing though not always considered meta for a long time. The DK's bring to much else to the table to change over to NB.

Oompuh

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

So , it goes like this . Since the CP is changed , there is no reason to stack everything in one single bonus like 100 Elemental Expert . Most DDs stick with 56 points in Ele Expert/Mighty for example .

The point is , just 30 points , which will barely give anything in other trees because of the CP changes , can be spent on the penetration tree and you can get 100% penetration on everything at anytime .

Paul already did the penetration math about how many points you need so I am gonna skip that . (I believe there is also a base penetration of 100 but not that important)

Just spending 31 points give you 2766 penetration . We know that 1k penetration against PvE enemies equals about 2% damage increase . So , 2766 penetration will increase your damage by 5.4% . This penetration is always there . You are not depending on some tank set or an enchant or a healer's power of the light to do full damage .

Question is , you can still depend on whatever you want but spending those 30 points elsewhere will give you how much damage bonus ? Is it worth it to give up on full penetration on everything at all times ?

I ran the new trial with Ebon/Alkosh , Ebon/Torugs , Torug/Alkosh setups and was successful but the problem is , I was away from the group a lot of times . My Crusher uptime was above 90% (100% if not interrupted by mechanics/ on bosses but my DDs are not there . More bigger problem is I can't put Crusher on more than 1 target . This is a very big problem in trash fights . You know , it is not a pledge , I have to taunt everything I am supposed to taunt and keep them taunted . I can't control my enchant cooldown and taunt the focused add when cooldown is over . Alkosh is a complete another issue . Synergies are not reliable at all , especially in the new trial . I barely get any synergies in there . I just went with Ultigen build while my DDs are spending 30 points into penetration . They have full damage on every single enemy in trials without depending on debuffs from tanks/healers . To be honest , I think penetration sets might still be good in old trials but I really don't recommend it in the new one .

Talking out my a** here but here's an idea for when people get to farming HoF. What about like BS, and Ultigen set, and PA for the damage boost off of Horn. We dont really need Pen, we have a lack of synergies, etc etc. I cant think of much else honestly

You would still want Ebon in there so either Ebon+Tavas, Ebon+Dragon or Ebon+PA for Main tank. And considering "main" tank is not close enough to the rest of the group on the assembly general most of the time, PA doesn't seem to be the better one, and a lot of the bosses hit somewhat slow and not all things can be dodge so maybe I will brush off my Dragon again :P

Yeah, one has to wear ebon. Im on Xbox so I cant speak for the new trial at all, but Ultigen seems to be the only reliable option.

If this is true then NB is the new meta tank since we can generate far more ult than a dk can by a wide margin. I'm starting to like Morrowind.

Priority 1, Be a good tank. Priority 2, Ult Gen. You're missing the first one.

Personofsecrets

@paulsimonps @Liofa ,


Hypothetically, for some fight, wearing alkosh and applying crushing would be over penetrating for around 5k.

Maybe then there is an opportunity for team members to use precise instead of sharpened for their weapons.

In that case Alkosh and infused are basically giving team members spell critical rating.

Do you think that is any good?

paulsimonps

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps @Liofa ,


Hypothetically, for some fight, wearing alkosh and applying crushing would be over penetrating for around 5k.

Maybe then there is an opportunity for team members to use precise instead of sharpened for their weapons.

In that case Alkosh and infused are basically giving team members spell critical rating.

Do you think that is any good?

Unless using Torugs pact you wont get good up time on crusher and Alkosh is really hard to get good up time with, more so on some bosses than others. I would not see using that as a substitute for Sharpened, if it was we already would have seen DPS's do that already as Infused weapons with Alkosh and Ebon has been the standard for some time now.

Personofsecrets

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps @Liofa ,


Hypothetically, for some fight, wearing alkosh and applying crushing would be over penetrating for around 5k.

Maybe then there is an opportunity for team members to use precise instead of sharpened for their weapons.

In that case Alkosh and infused are basically giving team members spell critical rating.

Do you think that is any good?

Unless using Torugs pact you wont get good up time on crusher and Alkosh is really hard to get good up time with, more so on some bosses than others. I would not see using that as a substitute for Sharpened, if it was we already would have seen DPS's do that already as Infused weapons with Alkosh and Ebon has been the standard for some time now.

Yea, you're right, Precise got hardly any attention at all despite a good condition for it.

Oompuh

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps @Liofa ,


Hypothetically, for some fight, wearing alkosh and applying crushing would be over penetrating for around 5k.

Maybe then there is an opportunity for team members to use precise instead of sharpened for their weapons.

In that case Alkosh and infused are basically giving team members spell critical rating.

Do you think that is any good?

Unless using Torugs pact you wont get good up time on crusher and Alkosh is really hard to get good up time with, more so on some bosses than others. I would not see using that as a substitute for Sharpened, if it was we already would have seen DPS's do that already as Infused weapons with Alkosh and Ebon has been the standard for some time now.

The difference now being people can but points into spell erosion and it's not complete garbage. But I think putting enough points into spell erosion to make up for it would be top much of a dps loss and by what you guys are saying about hof, doesn't sound like alkosh wI'll be up 100%.

WalksonGraves

So happy this "alkosh is bis" crap has died down. Gotta help out those non existant stam dps right?

Betsararie

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Ebon. Bloodspawn.

That's what my imp tank is wearing. He's still a WIP though.

Imp still undoubtedly the best tanking race

I would actually consider Argonian master race for Tanking. Max Health, Healing Received/Done, All 3 resources back when using any potion and for vSO they got Disease and Poison resist. Which now that I think of it also helps against the Spheres on the first boss of Halls.

lol. Imperials have waayy more health and stam. Potion passive is overrated IMHO and you wouldn't need it if you had resources in the first place.

Argonian are garbage

Umm.... When did you write this post? Argonians are the tank master race. Play one and get back to us. Imperial is certainly a solid option, and most people will say that tanks are the role where racial passives are least important, but if you are trying to min max, Embrace the Hist!

Yeah I regret that wording Argonians have been a good tanking race for a while now.

Last patch, admittedly I did think they were worse than imperials, but of course last patch is very different from this patch.

Imperials still have a place though but in all fairness, it is good to see argonians finally have significance of some kind.

Personofsecrets

Quick question.

Is the ult gen and drain per second on raid notifier broken for everyone?

Oompuh

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

@paulsimonps @Liofa

Liofa

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

paulsimonps

Liofa wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

Yea, I am tempted to go back on my Ebon Dragon set up now on my DK, warden is gonna stay Torugs for a bit cause I can't afford to swap :P But I loved Dragon+1p Choketorn+ 1p Shadowrend. 3 bonuses with 129 magicka recovery. Add red Frothgar on that mmmmm that magicka regen.

Oompuh

Liofa wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

Ah yes, the 2,3,4 bonuses on Dragon are very good. Valid point

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

Yea, I am tempted to go back on my Ebon Dragon set up now on my DK, warden is gonna stay Torugs for a bit cause I can't afford to swap :P But I loved Dragon+1p Choketorn+ 1p Shadowrend. 3 bonuses with 129 magicka recovery. Add red Frothgar on that mmmmm that magicka regen.

That setup does sound very tempting, not gonna lie

whitebeard00

I have a setup where I make use of a maelstrom mace, but it is pretty specific and difficult to get. Allows you to get the most out of 2 5-sets (tava / dragon), maelstrom mace, master sword, AND 2 set monster.

Front bar:

4 dragon (jewelry / 1 body)

5 tava ( 4 body / shield)

1 master sword

2 monster set

Back bar:

5 dragon (jewelry / 1 body / 1 shield)

4 tava (4 body)

1 maelstrom mace

2 monster set

Yngol

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

Yea, I am tempted to go back on my Ebon Dragon set up now on my DK, warden is gonna stay Torugs for a bit cause I can't afford to swap :P But I loved Dragon+1p Choketorn+ 1p Shadowrend. 3 bonuses with 129 magicka recovery. Add red Frothgar on that mmmmm that magicka regen.

Of course you could just run 60k health and use spell symmetry, thus eliminating all need for magicka recovery

paulsimonps

Yngol wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Which is faster for getting war horn up, Dragon or Werewolf Hide?

I tried both , Dragon is much better since it is reliable . Werewolf doesn't proc on cooldown in most fights . Even if it does , not as good as Dragon . Also , Dragon has Healthy jewelry and has better 2,3,4 set bonuses

Yea, I am tempted to go back on my Ebon Dragon set up now on my DK, warden is gonna stay Torugs for a bit cause I can't afford to swap :P But I loved Dragon+1p Choketorn+ 1p Shadowrend. 3 bonuses with 129 magicka recovery. Add red Frothgar on that mmmmm that magicka regen.

Of course you could just run 60k health and use spell symmetry, thus eliminating all need for magicka recovery

Not after todays patch

Oompuh

I was waiting for someone to revive this thread

RIP Balance