Why those that defend the resource management changes are wrong

kunquatb16_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Went into vWGT for the first time on my magdk since morrowind dropped with my wife tanking and 2 pugs from group finder.

Same build as before patch, all I did was change from health and mag food to witch mothers potent brew

I use 5 BSW front bar and 5 BSW Moon back bar and had absolutely 0 problems sustaining through vWGT, vCoH 1 or vDS1 while pulling pretty much the exact same dps as before patch

Of course vTrials might feel different, but for the love of god the resource 'problems' have really been blown out of proportion by people who either 1) Don't know how to build their character properly 2) Spam shields or heals and waste their resources because they can't move out of red

Not the point. The point is the changes don't stop spamming, the devs stated aim in making the changes. Spamming does need to be tackled, to keep variation in the game, these changes achieve the exact opposite.

You keep saying that, I don't remember them saying it was to stop spamming (will concede I am wrong if linked evidence).

I believe it was to bring the game away from "all damage, no sustain issues" builds, bring the top level down damage wise, make people consider other builds, have phases in fights (damage and regen) etc.

Their words on spam blocking:
Reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.
Developer Comments:
Spoiler
Due to how powerful Block is, being able to near-permanently block numerous attacks was posing significant balance issues. In PvP situations, this change will provide more counterplay against targets trying to block all of your attacks – you can rapidly attack them in order to drain their Stamina faster. In PvE encounters, this will encourage tanks to use Block more tactically for the larger, more deadly hits.

To stop spamming:
Developer Comments:
Spoiler
Roll Dodge providing a brief immunity to roots should prevent situations where enemies are able to repeatedly cast root abilities to completely prevent you from moving.

To stop spamming of templar shields
Developer Comments:
Spoiler
Blazing Shield builds have proven to be extremely effective due to being able to stack Health to improve both their survivability and damage done. We’ve reduced the effectiveness of this ability so that there is more of an opportunity cost to having so much Health.

The fact is, in all 3 cases, the stated aim hasn't been met, lockdown are still possible, spam blocking is still viable, shields can still be spammed. The stated aims, and actual outcomes don't match.

kunquatb16_ESO

colig wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

colig wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliché#Thought-terminating_clich.C3.A9

Nice psychobabble, did you read the entire post, including that last line? anything there stopping you thinking?

I was referring to the people going l2play, not you.

Oh lol, my bad. Was thinking, if anything my post encourages thinking. A better way than this exists, for those willing to look for them

lunalitetempler

You really need to realise that the change are and HAVE happened. For your own mental health, its happened, its live. No devs won't be looking at some random guys idea who just thinks he knows it all. Leave it to the people who are qualified and have careers please.

Coilbox

lunalitetempler wrote: »

You really need to realise that the change are and HAVE happened. For your own mental health, its happened, its live. No devs won't be looking at some random guys idea who just thinks he knows it all. Leave it to the people who are qualified and have careers please.

Devs usually look at 'random' guys that have amazing ideas, not saying this one is one of them, but some great ideas put into games came from people without careers, you dont need a career to improve a game. Actually, people with careers broke many games in the past.

kunquatb16_ESO

lunalitetempler wrote: »

You really need to realise that the change are and HAVE happened. For your own mental health, its happened, its live. No devs won't be looking at some random guys idea who just thinks he knows it all. Leave it to the people who are qualified and have careers please.

Devs are making this game for the players, for them to enjoy, play various ways, and of course, keep spending money. Players are therefore the most qualified to talk about changes, there effects on gameplay and enjoyment, as without taking account of their views, devs are developing a game for devs, not us players.

I prefer to think good of them, that they are developing it for the players, I hope your thinking never becomes theirs.

Knightpanther

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

This all day long.

Epona222

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

You buy a product, invest you money into it. Invest your time beta testing, for free, giving feedback. You invest further money to subscribe, even after freeplay. You walk away without giving feedback on why? without trying to keep the game fun? without attempting to make them see a better way?

Having known tragedy doesn't have any baring whatso ever on whether these changes are good or bad, no baring on game enjoyment, and although on a human level, it saddens me to know you've known tragedy, in the context on this convo, it's entire irrelevant.

You haven't invested anything into it, it's a whim for your free time and cash. A hobby. My mum spends more money on wool for knitting than I've spent on this game (and probably more than you have spent too, she's quite a fierce knitter). If you were an investor in the company, you'd have a say. We are customers, not investors.

Coilbox

Nerf knitting!

idk

*grabs popcorn

kunquatb16_ESO

Epona222 wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

You buy a product, invest you money into it. Invest your time beta testing, for free, giving feedback. You invest further money to subscribe, even after freeplay. You walk away without giving feedback on why? without trying to keep the game fun? without attempting to make them see a better way?

Having known tragedy doesn't have any baring whatso ever on whether these changes are good or bad, no baring on game enjoyment, and although on a human level, it saddens me to know you've known tragedy, in the context on this convo, it's entire irrelevant.

You haven't invested anything into it, it's a whim for your free time and cash. A hobby. My mum spends more money on wool for knitting than I've spent on this game (and probably more than you have spent too, she's quite a fierce knitter). If you were an investor in the company, you'd have a say. We are customers, not investors.

Invested http://www.dictionary.com/browse/invested number three. We have invested, both in the 3rd sense, and in your assumed sense, time and money. The fact is, I want to make the game better, more varied, more fun, more flexible, less cookiecutter, less micromanagment, more skill rewarding more.

Epona222

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

You buy a product, invest you money into it. Invest your time beta testing, for free, giving feedback. You invest further money to subscribe, even after freeplay. You walk away without giving feedback on why? without trying to keep the game fun? without attempting to make them see a better way?

Having known tragedy doesn't have any baring whatso ever on whether these changes are good or bad, no baring on game enjoyment, and although on a human level, it saddens me to know you've known tragedy, in the context on this convo, it's entire irrelevant.

You haven't invested anything into it, it's a whim for your free time and cash. A hobby. My mum spends more money on wool for knitting than I've spent on this game (and probably more than you have spent too, she's quite a fierce knitter). If you were an investor in the company, you'd have a say. We are customers, not investors.

Invested http://www.dictionary.com/browse/invested number three. We have invested, both in the 3rd sense, and in your ussumed sense, time and money. The fact is, I want to make the game better, more varied, more fun, more flexible, less cookiecutter, less micromanagment, more skill rewarding more.

Oh for the love of...

OK so since my mum buys a lot of wool and spends an inordinate amount of time knitting (she has invested money and time into the sheep farming industry as per the dictionary definition) she should get a say in how sheep-farming is handled... no.

I'm seriously just trying to use this analogy to try to make you realise that you don't have a say in how the game is run. You can give feedback, you can sub, you can not sub, you can stay, or you can leave - but what you can't do, and what none of us can do, is tell them how to run it - maybe they will listen to us, but it's up to them at the end of the day, and if you don't like it, it's not like you're manacled here.

And if you have spent some time here and then leave, it's like "you bought a burger, you ate a burger - you had your burger, you don't get any money back - if you didn't like it you shouldn't have eaten it all"

Tandor

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

I couldn't agree more. Reading the forum these past few weeks it's like I missed the announcement that ESO was no longer "just a game".

kunquatb16_ESO

Epona222 wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

You buy a product, invest you money into it. Invest your time beta testing, for free, giving feedback. You invest further money to subscribe, even after freeplay. You walk away without giving feedback on why? without trying to keep the game fun? without attempting to make them see a better way?

Having known tragedy doesn't have any baring whatso ever on whether these changes are good or bad, no baring on game enjoyment, and although on a human level, it saddens me to know you've known tragedy, in the context on this convo, it's entire irrelevant.

You haven't invested anything into it, it's a whim for your free time and cash. A hobby. My mum spends more money on wool for knitting than I've spent on this game (and probably more than you have spent too, she's quite a fierce knitter). If you were an investor in the company, you'd have a say. We are customers, not investors.

Invested http://www.dictionary.com/browse/invested number three. We have invested, both in the 3rd sense, and in your ussumed sense, time and money. The fact is, I want to make the game better, more varied, more fun, more flexible, less cookiecutter, less micromanagment, more skill rewarding more.

Oh for the love of...

OK so since my mum buys a lot of wool and spends an inordinate amount of time knitting (she has invested money and time into the sheep farming industry as per the dictionary definition) she should get a say in how sheep-farming is handled... no.

No, but if she requested a particular shade of wool, or needles of different length and thickness, should the shop listen, think about her devotion to the craft, and act accordingly?

Omnipresent

lol like what kinda builds are some of you running? im on a hybrid build thats kinda a resource juggling match to begin with and i havent ran into any real sustain issues besides playing with no cp( ill just use a drink buff like coffee for stam/mag recovery only downfall my health will be a little lower) problem solved

kunquatb16_ESO

Omnipresent wrote: »

lol like what kinda builds are some of you running? im on a hybrid build thats kinda a resource juggling match to begin with and i havent ran into any real sustain issues besides playing with no cp( ill just use a drink buff like coffee for stam/mag recovery only downfall my health will be a little lower) problem solved

Kind of my point, changes don't achieve stated aims, in any regard, and go counter to some. Poorly thought through.

F7sus4

Tandor wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

I couldn't agree more. Reading the forum these past few weeks it's like I missed the announcement that ESO was no longer "just a game".

For some it is "just a game" and for some it is important life-hobby. "I couldn't care less" about someone bringing "I saw people dying" argument to discussion about... game balance (WTF). Works both ways.

wahoozie

I'm not even understanding what change you are looking for. IMO this is the same thread as the ones you're complaining about.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Casterial wrote: »

I'll say this again, some in my trade guild quit recently because they felt useless now.

DO NOT BUILD WITH CP. Do what I did, I tested all of my characters heavily without CP in a no CP campaign to get pretty decent stats.
I then waited until Morrowind. Come Morrowind I ended up having a huge bonus from CP ontop of my no CP builds. CP is a crutch, you shouldn't build around it. You should build without it and then see CP as a bonus. It wouldn't hurt your toon. Resource management really didn't change for any of my toons, I still eat pots like candy because I love the additional regen, try it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ also what I do

DumdogsWorld

To the original poster - please forgive my noobiness, but what exactly do you mean by skill spamming? It sounds obvious enough, but I doubt my understanding is correct because, as far as i know, you have to use a skill to level it.

Darcwolf

Starting out a thread with "why you are wrong" is sure to make tons of people suddenly change their mind. Maybe you should just git gud.

kunquatb16_ESO

DumdogsWorld wrote: »

To the original poster - please forgive my noobiness, but what exactly do you mean by skill spamming? It sounds obvious enough, but I doubt my understanding is correct because, as far as i know, you have to use a skill to level it.

Repeatedly using the same skill over and over, just hammering 1 button mindlessly till things stop moving. Apparently, some people like that lol ... some it seems like it a lot https://www.clickerheroes.com/

Smaxx

Serious question, not trying to troll anyone or even shouting "git gud" or whatever:

I've played a bit as DPS and Tank yesterday using my Stamina based Nightblade and it feels pretty much the same compared to pre-Morrowind. I always used to weave light/heavy attacks between blocking heavy blows etc. I haven't tanked trials yet, so exclude that in my statement, but besides that I couldn't notice any too significant changes other than my Stamina dropping slighty quicker, but also regaining it faster?

Draqone

DumdogsWorld wrote: »

To the original poster - please forgive my noobiness, but what exactly do you mean by skill spamming? It sounds obvious enough, but I doubt my understanding is correct because, as far as i know, you have to use a skill to level it.

@DumdogsWorld It's not about leveling, it's about endgame DPS rotations.

Before the patch you could maintain a constant animation cancelled light attack weave rotation (1 Light attack + a skill every second).

Now you have to break this rotation with a heavy attack every few seconds. How often you need to use heavies to restore resources depends on the amount of regen you have in your builds. Obviously, more regen means less heavy attacks but also less investment into damage, so your skills hit for less.

I support the changes in this patch because instead of forcing us into the constant LA weave rotation the patch gives us choice: we can opt for regen or heavy attacks, or something inbetween.

Not only that, this patch actually rewards good mechanics since the damage buff to light attacks means the times you can lightweave your LA contribute a significant amount of your DPS (up to 5k-ish DPS).

DumdogsWorld

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

DumdogsWorld wrote: »

To the original poster - please forgive my noobiness, but what exactly do you mean by skill spamming? It sounds obvious enough, but I doubt my understanding is correct because, as far as i know, you have to use a skill to level it.

Repeatedly using the same skill over and over, just hammering 1 button mindlessly till things stop moving. Apparently, some people like that lol ... some it seems like it a lot https://www.clickerheroes.com/

I know what you're talking about now. I was just a little confused about using the word skill instead of ability. I was like..."to level up my bow skill i need to use bow abilities...."

Thanks for clearing that up.

kunquatb16_ESO

Draqone wrote: »

DumdogsWorld wrote: »

To the original poster - please forgive my noobiness, but what exactly do you mean by skill spamming? It sounds obvious enough, but I doubt my understanding is correct because, as far as i know, you have to use a skill to level it.

@DumdogsWorld It's not about leveling, it's about endgame DPS rotations.

Before the patch you could maintain a constant animation cancelled light attack weave rotation (1 Light attack + a skill every second).

Now you have to break this rotation with a heavy attack every few seconds. How often you need to use heavies to restore resources depends on the amount of regen you have in your builds. Obviously, more regen means less heavy attacks but also less investment into damage, so your skills hit for less.

I support the changes in this patch because instead of forcing us into the constant LA weave rotation the patch gives us choice: we can opt for regen or heavy attacks, or something inbetween.

Not only that, this patch actually rewards good mechanics since the damage buff to light attacks means the times you can lightweave your LA contribute a significant amount of your DPS (up to 5k-ish DPS).

I was already doing that prepatch, most of my characters are at least semi hybrid, except my templar healer, who is fully focused on healing, and healing only. These changes make combat less dynamic, with few skill uses, even if they are different skill, and decreases the range of viable skillsets.

It hasn't "ruined" any of my specs, but it has made tanking very very boring, just taunt and heavy, taunt and heavy. Tanks need health, so are already compromised on stam, these changes compound that, making tank play even more one dimensional.

Panomania

I like the changes. I enjoy the expac.

More importantly I am INFINITELY entertained by the people who rant, rave and wring their hands at same....

So for me, good job ZOS.

Dragonnord

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

One heavy attack every 10 seconds? LOL! Like if one heavy attack returns all or half your stamina back. I do one heavy attack and 3 seconds later I lost thr stamina it recovered only with 2 Rapid Strikes.

One heavy attack every 10 seconds? Yeah! Sure.
 

leepalmer95

What a useless thread.

kunquatb16_ESO

Panomania wrote: »

I like the changes. I enjoy the expac.

More importantly I am INFINITELY entertained by the people who rant, rave and wring their hands at same....

So for me, good job ZOS.

I'm glad that you still enjoy it, for the most part, I do too. I just recently said to someone stating they were going to leave the game to instead stay, say what they like and don't like, put suggestions for improving the game, as that's what good players do.

Those who are unable to do this of course, mock those that can.

Wolfenbelle

me_ming wrote: »

I honestly suspect that these guys who say, "just L2P" or "adapt to changes" are just doing quests and world bosses and whatnot.

People feel superior when they scold and put down others. This is true generally in life, but particularly in an anonymous setting like an internet forum.

Truth is...nothing about this game (or others similar to it) requires any deep learning. To feel superior and/or have some sense of competition, some people push so-called elite builds, but really the majority of content can be completed by the majority of players without too much difficulty using most builds and play styles.