Energy Orbs / Mystic Orbs. PvE Functionality

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sirtadzio
sirtadzio
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I realize I have made a few posts regarding the state of healing and healers in the upcoming patch. I want to give an updated perspective as I have spent more time on the PTS, and in light of continued weekly updates. I have included discussion below, as well as two important suggestions for change, which I have put in BOLD.

I will admit that I was originally concerned about changes regarding PvE healers considering the initial heavy nerfs to templars, shards+orbs, sustain, cost reduction. The more I've played around with things recently, the less worried I am; providing I am not over casting abilities, I can keep a raid group alive and well buffed for a lung duration fight. I appreciate the recent changes to Luminous Shards and am looking forward to the upcoming heavy attack changes in case I'm in a pinch mana wise and need to weave in a resto-heavy attack. The lack of AoE stam return from repent is frustrating, but definitely not unmanageable with the tanks I've run with.

I'm not here to gripe about any of these aforementioned topics however, as I've made my peace with it, but I would really like to discuss the state of Energy Orbs/Mystic Orbs and how they affect sustain and team synergy. I know this has been brought up before, but as it hasn't been addressed by ZoS, I would like to bring it back to light. Again this is within a PvE context; while I do not PvP, my understanding is that the use of orbs in pvp isn't prolific, so please correct me here if my discussion would have some impact on PVP of which I am not aware.

Premise:
Healers in PvE trials are in charge of much more than just keeping allies alive. It's about giving them buffs, and supporting their ability to effectively dps over a long term fight. A major part of this has been through the use of orbs. Energy orbs: essentially acts as a HoT, with a synergy providing 'mana over time' to the synergizer and nearby allies. Mystic Orbs provided damage over time, and provided a burst of magic to the synergizer, and magic over time to nearby allies. Both valuable skills, and a mark of a good team, as it requires placement of orbs and the synergizing of the orbs to maintain sustain within a raid. I have many variations: each healer running a different morph, both healers running the healing orbs with OT tank running the blue orbs, or both healers sending out well timed blue orbs.
In summary Energy Orbs were effective for a) Healing b) Magic Over time. Mystic Orbs were good for: burst of magic. Although they did dps on cast, and on synergy, it is negligible towards the groups overall dps.

The proposed change, with both orbs returning mana ONLY to the synergizer, makes the healing orb the only viable morph between the two. At least you get heals on top of the mana return; with the lackluster state of mystic orb, I'm having trouble fathoming the benefit of this morph, considering its not really a 'dps' ability...the previous attraction was the burst of magic compared to the magic over time of the other synergy. In order to reward group synergy, and to allow both morphs to be effective and utilized, I would like to strongly propose that the changes are reverted where one morph gives mana over time in an AoE, while the other gives a burst of mana to the synergizer. Alternatively, have one give a BIG burst of magic, while the other gives a smaller AOE burst of magic. Or something.

Next topic: Usability of the orb skill
Currently on live, with my max mag/health food on, vamp stage 2, and without inner light, (my standard raid set up). I can cast roughly 32 energy orbs in 30 seconds before I run out of mana. In raid I can basically spam cast them to keep up SPC buffs, and they make up my biggest percentage heal, and I am drinking spell pots on cool down and popping my healing parters orbs as well. I get that this isn't good- shouldn't be able to endlessly spam cast something like that over that period of time, and therefore, I am open to the idea of sustain nerfs, and needing to weave in resto heavy attacks. Currently on the PTS I can cast roughly 16 orbs in open world before I am completely out of mana. This is a significant decrease. On PTS this is now behaving as a skill that costs a lot, to ONLY offer one ally resources- coupled with the fact that they can be hard to synergize, and the heal is negligible compared to healing springs in light of the sustain changes, there isn't even a conversation to have....It's almost an unusable skill- especially being able to target luminous shards to my tank or healing partner if they need emergency resources. To reinforce this, in a recent conversation I had with Vanady, she stated "Orbs are dead for templar healers".

Math
I would like to compare stats from live to PTS, but it is hard, given they function differently on each one, and I have different gear. But I would like to give an example from PTS in light of all the CP changes to how Orbs perform (these stats are with full CP allocation, No food, No armor, on a Breton Templar, with all passives allocated).... For a cost of 4269 magic, I can return 3960 magic to ONE ally. Lets hypothesize and say both healers are running orbs and are responsible for giving orbs on cool down to 6 raid members each. Providing I send only 6 balls, and EACH ONE IS HIT, I need to spend 25,614 magic (64% of my magic pool) every c. 20 seconds to support my team. Assuming I'm popping an orb, I guess the number goes to 21345 magic, ergo 53% of my mana pool- that's a lot when I need to be healing (which is harder without major mending, and with lower resistances), and buffing with combat prayer. I feel like this REALLY reinforces how lousy this ability is with the upcoming changes.

ZoS, you have stated that you want any class to be able to heal, and put orbs and shards on a shard cool down to reinforce that other classes can be raid supports as well. That is all well and good, however Orbs are essentially unusable due to the fact that they have too high a cost for the upcoming sustain changes, and lack effective functionality in perspective to their cost. Energy Orb heals are negligible compared to cost, mystic orbs dps is abysmal compared to the cost, and the synergy is terrible, only offering one ally some form of resource return.

My Second proposal, if you aren't going to revert the changes, or reduce the cost, would be to allow Energy orbs to return resources to both the synergizer and the caster, similar to your initial change with illuminous shards. This would reward team play and strategy EVEN MORE than on live, since as a support, I wouldn't be able to brainlessly spam cast, but my allies would be rewarded by synergizing, and if they synergize, it would empower me to send out more for other allies as well.

For your consideration here is an example of my healing combat metrics report from live, showing the effectiveness of Energy Orbs:
isvp1clb5r5k.png
PvE Healer
  • DisgracefulMind
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    sirtadzio wrote: »
    My Second proposal, if you aren't going to revert the changes, or reduce the cost, would be to allow Energy orbs to return resources to both the synergizer and the caster, similar to your initial change with illuminous shards. This would reward team play and strategy EVEN MORE than on live, since as a support, I wouldn't be able to brainlessly spam cast, but my allies would be rewarded by synergizing, and if they synergize, it would empower me to send out more for other allies as well.


    First, I would like to say that I agree completely with your entire post. Orbs are pretty hard to manage on PTS, particularly with all of the other buffs and healing that a healer needs to be giving out at the same time. While I agree that it was a bit over the top that Energy Orbs became almost a main heal on live, I think that the sheer usage of orbs for your group really set sustain apart from group to group. You had some top raid teams who used Energy and Mystic, and some who used double Energy. I've also accepted the changes from ZoS with sustain, I know they won't go back on it, so my response isn't going to really go much on that, but I would like to say that pretty much the key to giving your raid infinite sustain was ele + tons of Energy Orbs on live. So, with Morrowind, there will be absolutely no way to keep orbs out to the point that we can now. That's fine, but with the heavy hits to sustain, with the magicka drains we will be facing in new content, it seems a little silly that ZoS wouldn't have adjusted the cost of orbs when they do, indeed, want other healers to feel effective.

    Without something being adjusted with the cost OR something similar to what the OP has said here, that I have quoted, it will be extremely difficult for healers of any class to give out the sustain that their groups are desperately going to need this next patch. So, while I do agree that we shouldn't be infinitely able to chain cast orbs forever, I feel this skill took too heavy of a hit with the cost reduction CP being gone plus other sustain nerfs.

    I like the idea of a morph of orbs giving back some sustain to the caster to compensate for some of its cost, but I, ultimately, would just like ZoS to reduce the cost of orbs a bit so that they are still completely viable for every type of healer. Orbs are interesting because they require things to be hit by them to maximize their potential. This is actually a nice mechanic for them, but almost 5k magicka per orb...when your raid team is crying for magicka...while you're struggling with magicka yourself. Please look at a cost reduction, ZoS, so that healers aren't hurt even more by this patch and so that raid teams aren't struggling too terribly.

    I don't think orbs are dead for a Templar healer, far from it, but all healers will struggle to use this skill in an efficient manner (not just Templar healers), and it will set the gap for a raid being successful or not even higher.

    EDIT: I didn't add that raid groups in Cyrodiil will also feel the hit to orbs pretty hard. So, for our healers out in PvP, they would also benefit greatly from a cost adjustment. They certainly need this as well. Especially since being a PvP healer takes so much more resources than being a PvE one.
    Edited by DisgracefulMind on May 14, 2017 1:28AM
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    This is the only change I want to be made above all others. It's such a shame that group synergy won't be rewarded next patch.
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
    Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    As it stands now it really makes no sence to run orbs as it's cost benefit is to little
  • Cnedra
    Cnedra
    Does this mean my DK healer is no longer op?
  • sirtadzio
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    I like the idea of a morph of orbs giving back some sustain to the caster to compensate for some of its cost, but I, ultimately, would just like ZoS to reduce the cost of orbs a bit so that they are still completely viable for every type of healer. Orbs are interesting because they require things to be hit by them to maximize their potential. This is actually a nice mechanic for them, but almost 5k magicka per orb...when your raid team is crying for magicka...while you're struggling with magicka yourself. Please look at a cost reduction, ZoS, so that healers aren't hurt even more by this patch and so that raid teams aren't struggling too terribly.

    EDIT: I didn't add that raid groups in Cyrodiil will also feel the hit to orbs pretty hard. So, for our healers out in PvP, they would also benefit greatly from a cost adjustment. They certainly need this as well. Especially since being a PvP healer takes so much more resources than being a PvE one.

    Thanks for chiming in @DisgracefulMind :)
    I agree that simply a cost reduction would also be a valid option, especially given the changes to the synergy.
    Thank you for also sharing about orbs in PVP- I've only done some casual pvp, and wasn't sure if orbs was a part of the pvp game or not. It's nice to hear that a change to this skill will benefit both PVE and PVP equally, without causing them to be "broken" in one or the other.
    Edited by sirtadzio on May 14, 2017 2:05AM
    PvE Healer
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    All those words and you are totally don't seem to get that zos doesnt want healers to be sustain machines, zos wants people to run solo builds on group content, full stop.
  • sirtadzio
    sirtadzio
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    That's not really the answer, healing is about providing group utility, and having on point healers was a distinguishing factor between top and lower end teams, due to the synergy and benefit they bring their group. It's an easy fix we are looking for to better fit within their vision for the future; it is a reasonable request, and we aren't trying to undermine their proposed gameplay changes, simply pointing out how one key skill likely got lost in the shuffle
    PvE Healer
  • Rinmaethodain
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    Yeah, orbs were hard to catch on live, need to use them in burst and even then there is no guarantee that synergy will show up. Now they give even less while still being as hard to catch as they were.
  • DisgracefulMind
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    Yeah, orbs were hard to catch on live, need to use them in burst and even then there is no guarantee that synergy will show up. Now they give even less while still being as hard to catch as they were.

    This is another huge concern for end-game PvE. Synergies. They're so hard to hit. It's part of the reason why healers just started spamming orbs nonstop. Because no one can hit them.
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  • AyeshaBelladonna
    AyeshaBelladonna
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    This is another huge concern for end-game PvE. Synergies. They're so hard to hit. It's part of the reason why healers just started spamming orbs nonstop. Because no one can hit them.

    Yup, this exactly. i can't count how many times my group almost died because the healer had to spend too much time spamming orbs and forgot to watch the timing on their H.S. overlap OR that as dps i had to chase one down because i was in need of resources desperately and the healer only popped out one or two. Now one explanation there is just having a sucky healer true- but at the same time if the skill was simply more functional overall this wouldn't be as big an issue. Synergy HoT builds have become HUGE in endgame PvE these days, and between them taking the caster return BACK OFF in the last patch from Luminous Shards and what they've done to orbs they have effectively said " we totally lied when we said we wanted all classes to have viable options to be a healer" Apparently they now want the only effective HoT build to be their new baby the Warden. :/ What do they have against Templars? (designed to be a healing class OR dps, yet consistently nerfed on all fronts)
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Nice post. Nice analysis. Nice conclusion. Nice way to show BoL complaints are PvP oriented.
  • DisgracefulMind
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    Nice post. Nice analysis. Nice conclusion. Nice way to show BoL complaints are PvP oriented.

    I mean, they are.

    This is a 20 minute second boss fight in the new vet trial (this is after the buff to the trial on PTS):

    yl2nPgn.png

    As you can see, breath is used, but not the highest healing used in PvE. Almost every fight is this way. This was done in Seducer/Mending because I don't have SPC on EU server, so I was able to use orbs more, but I couldn't possibly do so with SPC on.

    So ye, BoL complaints are definitely PvP oriented.
    Edited by DisgracefulMind on May 15, 2017 3:50PM
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  • aetherial_heavenn
    aetherial_heavenn
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    sirtadzio wrote: »


    ZoS, you have stated that you want any class to be able to heal, and put orbs and shards on a shard cool down to reinforce that other classes can be raid supports as well. That is all well and good, however Orbs are essentially unusable due to the fact that they have too high a cost for the upcoming sustain changes, and lack effective functionality in perspective to their cost. Energy Orb heals are negligible compared to cost, mystic orbs dps is abysmal compared to the cost, and the synergy is terrible, only offering one ally some form of resource return.

    My Second proposal, if you aren't going to revert the changes, or reduce the cost, would be to allow Energy orbs to return resources to both the synergizer and the caster, similar to your initial change with illuminous shards. This would reward team play and strategy EVEN MORE than on live, since as a support, I wouldn't be able to brainlessly spam cast, but my allies would be rewarded by synergizing, and if they synergize, it would empower me to send out more for other allies as well.

    Thanks for the analysis.
    Synergising orbs, even when spammed, is very difficult on live. With the proposed changes, rewarding team play through effectively using synergies seems to have been overlooked.

    Seems odd to me that the new group content is still being designed for effective group/team play but increasingly the recent combat mechanics are designed for a solo player relying on the game to actually play it for them: ie Switch pet on, watch it heal/tank/dps.* Put armour on, hit attack button, watch armour do damage/tank/sustain resources.


    It does appear that team play and resource sharing/support in effective groups are being punished whilst wearing proc armour or using an OP pets are stil being rewarded.

    Some insight into how these two very different approaches to overall gameplay are intended to be reconciled by the devs, would be nice.

    *at least the matriarch can't heal through walls after Morrowind.....warden pet, not so sure ;)
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    But they nerfed BoL. It's unusable now, remember? :trollface:

    Edit: I has question. So I already know that Energy Orb does an *** ton of healing in that it ticks every half second. How useful is Mystic Orb for dps specs? Is a dps running Mystic Orb a thing? Does Mystic Orb tick for damage every half second too or ignore aoe caps?
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on May 21, 2017 4:47AM
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  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
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    But they nerfed BoL. It's unusable now, remember? :trollface:

    Edit: I has question. So I already know that Energy Orb does an *** ton of healing in that it ticks every half second. How useful is Mystic Orb for dps specs? Is a dps running Mystic Orb a thing? Does Mystic Orb tick for damage every half second too or ignore aoe caps?

    Orbs are strange because they're quite slow. DPS running orbs isn't much of a thing because of how slow they are, how expensive they are, and because their bar space can be filled with much higher hitting and efficient costing abilities. They're also weird to weave inbetween, and animation cancelling them makes them come out slower if you're not bar swapping with them from my experience. I'm not sure if it ignores AoE caps, honestly. I don't think it does, but I could be wrong. They could potentially hit quite hard, but it would drain a DPS magicka pool almost instantly, and DPS don't the have luxury of having more resource sustain like a healer does. It would be more of a loss than anything. Most raid teams either have healers running double heal orbs, or one per type of orb, and often one tank will use mystic orbs in trash.
    Edited by DisgracefulMind on May 21, 2017 8:06AM
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  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Honestly, I think the only Healer that will use this well is sorrecer maybe dragon Knight but not nightblade. Even then I had to slot a monster. I was only able to keep up with 2000+ regain.

    This is another huge concern for end-game PvE. Synergies. They're so hard to hit. It's part of the reason why healers just started spamming orbs nonstop. Because no one can hit them.

    @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

    Can you guys look at gameplay for syneries? Some of them like blood altar are useless. Maybe increased timer or boomerang effect on things like orbs.
    Edited by Tasear on May 21, 2017 8:31AM
  • KellieHusker
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    Orbs are a frustrating joke for healers at this point, you need to cast 2-3 in a row for 1 person to be able to synergy with due to how awkward they are meaning your spending twice the mana they restore to give half it costs to one player. I don't even what them on my bar at this point. :'(

    If I knew the synergy would work at they were going to be activatable I wouldn't be as frustrated by the skill, but I hate seeing 8 orbs float by and none of them get activated because no one got the X key.
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