Skill Gap Too High for New Players in PVP?

Satiar

Biggest problem is that the "advancement system" for pvp broke down. Early on in game there were lots of guilds on different tiers. You never expect to just join an MMO and join an elite crew, so you join a pvp guild that accepts and trains new players. As time goes on those guilds get better or the players in them move on to better guilds.

At some point in ESO this system completely collapsed. Almost all the zone-invite guilds vanished, as did most of the mid-tier guilds. The high level guilds became extremely insular, and rarely take on anyone who isn't a long-time well known player. It's a rough environment to get started in. If I was a new player rolling into ESO pvp I'd likely get frustrated fairly quick at the lack of options or avenues for advancement. For people who want to get into high level pvp guilds there isn't that much hope. There's max 2 per faction, almost all of them are closed off to recruiting new players, and if you join a lesser guild to learn that just hurts your chances even more.

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

NBrookus

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

DaveMoeDee

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

I expect battlegrounds to be far worse. With the small numbers in battlegrounds, deficiencies will be even more obvious.

I can't wait for all the balance complaints when battlegrounds is launched. Good luck ZOS with that pandora's box.

Satiar

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

IcyDeadPeople

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

I expect battlegrounds to be far worse. With the small numbers in battlegrounds, deficiencies will be even more obvious.

I can't wait for all the balance complaints when battlegrounds is launched. Good luck ZOS with that pandora's box.

@Vanzen

I suppose a successful match making system for any game depends on the total number of concurrent players. This is the reason for this topic, how to get more players for PVP/Battlegrounds.

If there are tons of people at all different skill levels who want to join, then any typical match making system can more easily assign fair teams for new players, whether it is some mix of new and experienced or even 12 complete noobs battling to the death.

Otherwise, if we remain with our smaller current PVP population, it becomes more difficult to wind up with even matches, especially off peak hours. Which can result in new players quitting after a few rounds.

SneaK

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

I expect battlegrounds to be far worse. With the small numbers in battlegrounds, deficiencies will be even more obvious.

I can't wait for all the balance complaints when battlegrounds is launched. Good luck ZOS with that pandora's box.

@Vanzen

A successful match making system for any game depends on the total number of concurrent players. This is the reason for this topic, how to get more players for PVP/Battlegrounds.

If there are tons of people at all different skill levels who want to join, then any typical match making system can more easily assign fair teams for new players, whether it is some mix of new and experienced or even 12 complete noobs battling to the death.

Otherwise, if we remain with our smaller current PVP population, it becomes more difficult to wind up with even matches, especially off peak hours. Which can result in new players quitting after a few rounds.

To attract more PvP'ers, they need to provide more incentive to PvP and they need to work on the lag and disconnects.

No CP in BGs is their way of closing gaps for newer players. This works to a degree. Where it breaks is older players have more access to different gear/builds, which some are ridiculously broken. The game favors specific class specs too much and if you are a new player that leveled an underdog spec fighting against those overperformers are going to derail your desire to play in BGs.

And, Cyro population is going to go way down with people running BGs. Emp flipping and zerging will be worse, less conflicts to chase meaning everyone will go to the same spot.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

There is a ton of great info in this thread. Let me add the following ...

Skill in PVP is not just determined by who the best fighter is. That's one aspect, an important one to be sure, but far from the only one. Preparedness is a skill that gets severely overlooked.

Having the best equipment for fighting is all well and good in a static environment, but there are different things that need to be done to combat a dragon knight (don't spam projectiles and make sure you can CC break) then need to be done versus a Sorc (timing your burst perfectly) or a Blazing Shield Templar (ignore them if you don't have an ultimate that hits hard enough). Being able to do any of these things all at once is what separates good from very good. Do you have enough various skills and potions to be ready for anything?

Then there are things like siege. Do you have them? Do you know how to operate 4 at once?

And then contributing to the campaign score. I wonder how many people realize that a few of the top campaigns are graded off of resource captures.

Simply put there are things that separate the seasoned veterans from the new guys that will never be overcome via having good enough gear. That gap is only going to grow over time.

While the "I can kill you" gap might be smaller than ever, the I can survive by myself gap is wider than ever. In many ways fighting in a group hinders me these days. I know what I want to do and the fastest way to do it.

Satiar

SneaK wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

I expect battlegrounds to be far worse. With the small numbers in battlegrounds, deficiencies will be even more obvious.

I can't wait for all the balance complaints when battlegrounds is launched. Good luck ZOS with that pandora's box.

@Vanzen

A successful match making system for any game depends on the total number of concurrent players. This is the reason for this topic, how to get more players for PVP/Battlegrounds.

If there are tons of people at all different skill levels who want to join, then any typical match making system can more easily assign fair teams for new players, whether it is some mix of new and experienced or even 12 complete noobs battling to the death.

Otherwise, if we remain with our smaller current PVP population, it becomes more difficult to wind up with even matches, especially off peak hours. Which can result in new players quitting after a few rounds.

To attract more PvP'ers, they need to provide more incentive to PvP and they need to work on the lag and disconnects.

No CP in BGs is their way of closing gaps for newer players. This works to a degree. Where it breaks is older players have more access to different gear/builds, which some are ridiculously broken. The game favors specific class specs too much and if you are a new player that leveled an underdog spec fighting against those overperformers are going to derail your desire to play in BGs.

And, Cyro population is going to go way down with people running BGs. Emp flipping and zerging will be worse, less conflicts to chase meaning everyone will go to the same spot.

Lag and disconnects ate the big ones. The beauty of pvp is you mostly create your own content. There's plenty to do in Cyrillic when it works. Then you have nights like this last Saturday where it was so laggy I couldn't CC break to literally save my life.

SneaK

Satiar wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

I expect battlegrounds to be far worse. With the small numbers in battlegrounds, deficiencies will be even more obvious.

I can't wait for all the balance complaints when battlegrounds is launched. Good luck ZOS with that pandora's box.

@Vanzen

A successful match making system for any game depends on the total number of concurrent players. This is the reason for this topic, how to get more players for PVP/Battlegrounds.

If there are tons of people at all different skill levels who want to join, then any typical match making system can more easily assign fair teams for new players, whether it is some mix of new and experienced or even 12 complete noobs battling to the death.

Otherwise, if we remain with our smaller current PVP population, it becomes more difficult to wind up with even matches, especially off peak hours. Which can result in new players quitting after a few rounds.

To attract more PvP'ers, they need to provide more incentive to PvP and they need to work on the lag and disconnects.

No CP in BGs is their way of closing gaps for newer players. This works to a degree. Where it breaks is older players have more access to different gear/builds, which some are ridiculously broken. The game favors specific class specs too much and if you are a new player that leveled an underdog spec fighting against those overperformers are going to derail your desire to play in BGs.

And, Cyro population is going to go way down with people running BGs. Emp flipping and zerging will be worse, less conflicts to chase meaning everyone will go to the same spot.

Lag and disconnects ate the big ones. The beauty of pvp is you mostly create your own content. There's plenty to do in Cyrillic when it works. Then you have nights like this last Saturday where it was so laggy I couldn't CC break to literally save my life.

Right. The incentive used to be just having fun fights, nowadays with the lag in a populated server (only place to find fights) it makes it more of a chore to play. It's depressing.

Takllin

Satiar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

Following crown was too easy. It's hard to get new players to grasp individual play within a group.

Satiar

Takllin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

Following crown was too easy. It's hard to get new players to grasp individual play within a group

Our group was (and still is) the only high level pvp guild that regularly recruits and trains from zone. This was one of the things we were always proud of, that we found many of our core from zone or guilds the other elite groups mocked. We never minded giving a player a chance, we only asked they be willing they do it our way and learn.

This is harder to do now, as the learning curve is much steeper. I brought up VD because we had that exact conversation some patches ago. A new player isn't just someone to carry now, a new player can be actively harmful to your group. This isn't a nerf VD thread, but what I'm trying to get at is that there are many, many blockages to new players becoming established and finding homes in the PvP community, some on a mechanical level and others on a personal level.

vamp_emily

I think a lot of players wait to PvP a little too late in the game. They should start out in a low level campaign. This will allow them to learn PvP before they go to a Vet campaign and get proc'd or one shot.

A good way to get players HOOKED or more coming to PvP is having events. Maybe take a group of new players around getting skyshards and books, or take a group to IC.

I've held a few events and players really have fun in IC and PvP, some players just need to hold hands with someone to get started.

Vanzen

When one talks about big pvp guilds, is one refering to those ridiculous trains blobing together that dont do *** xept spamming destro ulti ...

Because if that takes skills and learning ....

Am eager to meet these in group of only 4 in BG.


ZOS needs to implement a ranking system in BG, or many casuals wont come back there after a few humiliating sessions.

Takllin

Satiar wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

Following crown was too easy. It's hard to get new players to grasp individual play within a group

Our group was (and still is) the only high level pvp guild that regularly recruits and trains from zone. This was one of the things we were always proud of, that we found many of our core from zone or guilds the other elite groups mocked. We never minded giving a player a chance, we only asked they be willing they do it our way and learn.

This is harder to do now, as the learning curve is much steeper. I brought up VD because we had that exact conversation some patches ago. A new player isn't just someone to carry now, a new player can be actively harmful to your group. This isn't a nerf VD thread, but what I'm trying to get at is that there are many, many blockages to new players becoming established and finding homes in the PvP community, some on a mechanical level and others on a personal level.

When I was leading rage pre-TG I recruited a few players from zone with some good results. One of them participated in the GvG and ended up being a strong player overall. I'm agreeing with you here. The hardest thing to learn in this game is how to not die imo, and like you said dying can have severe consequences affecting the group rather than just the player.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

vamp_emily wrote: »

I think a lot of players wait to PvP a little too late in the game. They should start out in a low level campaign. This will allow them to learn PvP before they go to a Vet campaign and get proc'd or one shot.

A good way to get players HOOKED or more coming to PvP is having events. Maybe take a group of new players around getting skyshards and books, or take a group to IC.

I've held a few events and players really have fun in IC and PvP, some players just need to hold hands with someone to get started.

I went to vet PVP on day 1 of console at level 10. I've never set foot in non-vet PVP. Despite taking a ton of lumps in year one the knowledge I aquired in the first year was invaluable.

I would actually argue that avoiding the non vet servers and just jumping in with a true level 10 would be the best way to learn.

Satiar

Takllin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

Following crown was too easy. It's hard to get new players to grasp individual play within a group

Our group was (and still is) the only high level pvp guild that regularly recruits and trains from zone. This was one of the things we were always proud of, that we found many of our core from zone or guilds the other elite groups mocked. We never minded giving a player a chance, we only asked they be willing they do it our way and learn.

This is harder to do now, as the learning curve is much steeper. I brought up VD because we had that exact conversation some patches ago. A new player isn't just someone to carry now, a new player can be actively harmful to your group. This isn't a nerf VD thread, but what I'm trying to get at is that there are many, many blockages to new players becoming established and finding homes in the PvP community, some on a mechanical level and others on a personal level.

When I was leading rage pre-TG I recruited a few players from zone with some good results. One of them participated in the GvG and ended up being a strong player overall. I'm agreeing with you here. The hardest thing to learn in this game is how to not die imo, and like you said dying can have severe consequences affecting the group rather than just the player.

Cool cool, got ya.

I'm not sure what can even be done about it at this point, sadly.

Linken

I think the big issue aint the skill gaps it is that you have to PvE to PvP and that ****ing sucks..

Doing dungones for bis gear for pvp, doing long questlines in pve enviroment for skillpoints and skills to use in pvp...

Sure i understand the standard lvling to max lvl and so are essential to learn the basics of the game but after that you should be able to get the bis gear for the field(PvE or PvP) you want to play in by playing it not being forced into doing content you really dont wanna waste time doing.

SneaK

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I think a lot of players wait to PvP a little too late in the game. They should start out in a low level campaign. This will allow them to learn PvP before they go to a Vet campaign and get proc'd or one shot.

A good way to get players HOOKED or more coming to PvP is having events. Maybe take a group of new players around getting skyshards and books, or take a group to IC.

I've held a few events and players really have fun in IC and PvP, some players just need to hold hands with someone to get started.

I went to vet PVP on day 1 of console at level 10. I've never set foot in non-vet PVP. Despite taking a ton of lumps in year one the knowledge I aquired in the first year was invaluable.

I would actually argue that avoiding the non vet servers and just jumping in with a true level 10 would be the best way to learn.

You missed out. I leveled 7 characters from 10-50 in BwB. It was some of the most fun PvP I ever had. Vet camps for newer players is way worse than BwB. The reasoning is related to what Satiar is talking about too, in BwB there are a ton of random groups all over zone chat. Greatest place to learn the works of Cyro.

NBrookus

Satiar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Edit: I write this acknowledging I'm part of the problem but not sure how to fix it. We do still take on recruits but in very limited numbers, as too many begin to cost you fights and veterans will get frustrated. I really wish there were more up and coming guilds, groups learning together or at least providing training for those who want to move up.

Time for the big guilds to do bring-a-pug nights.

One big issue is that new players turned from "people we can easily carry in a strong raid" into "free VD procs for the enemy".

That risk is still there when you have pugs following you around, without the risk management of being able to give directions and advice in comms.

Ultimately I'm agreeing with you that the organized guilds need to start reaching out. It's not helpful for them to say they wish people would organize the pugs, but then decide they are too elite to do it themselves.

As for ideas how, maybe a few teammates go to Haderus with players you've invited beforehand. There's plenty of room in Haddy, no lag, no queue, and full sized raids are rare. (And so is VD.) It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if Haddy became home to training raids instead of emp flipping.

zyk

I don't think a lack of guilds is the problem. The lack of guilds is a symptom of the many problems this game has which start with a lack of care from ZOS.

I think a lot of PVP enthusiasts don't get that many casual players don't want to be in a guild. Many don't want commitments. They don't want to deal with TS -- which can be annoying. A lot don't really want to L2P or git gud. They just want some fun pew pew pew pew like most people who play on FPS public servers.

I think what they do probably want is to fight other players of a similar interest level. At least to start. Guild and clan scenes form on top of a strong casual base. Some of those casuals eventually become enthusiasts who feed guilds.

I can't imagine any game that would grow very well when the casual base is constantly hunted and berated by enthusiasts.

If you want to make the game more fun for the average player, fight alongside them and help them. Help them defeat the guilds and groups farming them. Don't leave them at the tower or keep to fend for themselves against a Haxus or VE for an hour while your group of experienced players farms opposition casuals elsewhere.

Players will usually only stick around if they have good experiences. Those casuals and randoms you've wrecked at Bleaker's or Fare LM the past hour aren't having those.

Satiar

zyk wrote: »

I don't think a lack of guilds is the problem. The lack of guilds is a symptom of the many problems this game has which start with a lack of care from ZOS.

I think a lot of PVP enthusiasts don't get that many casual players don't want to be in a guild. Many don't want commitments. They don't want to deal with TS -- which can be annoying. A lot don't really want to L2P or git gud. They just want some fun pew pew pew pew like most people who play on FPS public servers.

I think what they do probably want is to fight other players of a similar interest level. At least to start. Guild and clan scenes form on top of a strong casual base. Some of those casuals eventually become enthusiasts who feed guilds.

I can't imagine any game that would grow very well when the casual base is constantly hunted and berated by enthusiasts.

If you want to make the game more fun for the average player, fight alongside them and help them. Help them defeat the guilds and groups farming them. Don't leave them at the tower or keep to fend for themselves against a Haxus or VE for an hour while your group of experienced players farms opposition casuals elsewhere.

Players will usually only stick around if they have good experiences. Those casuals and randoms you've wrecked at Bleaker's or Fare LM the past hour aren't having those.

Absolutely agree.

Though I'm still surprised we got where we are. We had a good history of guilds and groups trading places at the top. And then it's 2 years later, all those groups have mixed and condensed into 2-3 groups and the progress of groups beneath them is stagnant.

It's been sad watching the groups at the top remain unchanged and realizing no one is coming up to replace them.

This really set in for me when Rage disbanded. Before that there was always a new one. When our long fight with Deci ended there was Rage, when Nexus ended their was Haxus and GoS, etc. Then suddenly Rage was gone and there was nothing on AD to replace them.

kuro-dono

damn well said zyk. sadly, this game so called enthuastic club needs the ego stroking videos and the tower farms and outpost farms to make themself feel better of themself. only way to allow the normal ppl enjoy themself is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY separate them from the enthuastic. to be able to handle enthuastic, you need to have stats like this > 1death vs 10 kills and such. and maybe further improve it by adding dps meter/accuracy + dmg done to you compared dmg what you done to others. since this is related to quite few gameplays what we experience in cyrodiil.

BUT. sadly. community needs their kills, so nah not gonna happen, and videos wont happen without potatos.

Airyus

Really? Not another one of these posts. It is really quite simple if you are new to PVP learn in black water blade. Then gain some exp in azura or haderus. After that go get your face melted until you are good enough to start whining on forums about the imbalance in PVP. Welcome to cyrodiil

Takllin

Satiar wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't think a lack of guilds is the problem. The lack of guilds is a symptom of the many problems this game has which start with a lack of care from ZOS.

I think a lot of PVP enthusiasts don't get that many casual players don't want to be in a guild. Many don't want commitments. They don't want to deal with TS -- which can be annoying. A lot don't really want to L2P or git gud. They just want some fun pew pew pew pew like most people who play on FPS public servers.

I think what they do probably want is to fight other players of a similar interest level. At least to start. Guild and clan scenes form on top of a strong casual base. Some of those casuals eventually become enthusiasts who feed guilds.

I can't imagine any game that would grow very well when the casual base is constantly hunted and berated by enthusiasts.

If you want to make the game more fun for the average player, fight alongside them and help them. Help them defeat the guilds and groups farming them. Don't leave them at the tower or keep to fend for themselves against a Haxus or VE for an hour while your group of experienced players farms opposition casuals elsewhere.

Players will usually only stick around if they have good experiences. Those casuals and randoms you've wrecked at Bleaker's or Fare LM the past hour aren't having those.

Absolutely agree.

Though I'm still surprised we got where we are. We had a good history of guilds and groups trading places at the top. And then it's 2 years later, all those groups have mixed and condensed into 2-3 groups and the progress of groups beneath them is stagnant.

It's been sad watching the groups at the top remain unchanged and realizing no one is coming up to replace them.

This really set in for me when Rage disbanded. Before that there was always a new one. When our long fight with Deci ended there was Rage, when Nexus ended their was Haxus and GoS, etc. Then suddenly Rage was gone and there was nothing on AD to replace them.

I remember warning people that there was a lack of guilds behind Rage.

Satiar

Takllin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't think a lack of guilds is the problem. The lack of guilds is a symptom of the many problems this game has which start with a lack of care from ZOS.

I think a lot of PVP enthusiasts don't get that many casual players don't want to be in a guild. Many don't want commitments. They don't want to deal with TS -- which can be annoying. A lot don't really want to L2P or git gud. They just want some fun pew pew pew pew like most people who play on FPS public servers.

I think what they do probably want is to fight other players of a similar interest level. At least to start. Guild and clan scenes form on top of a strong casual base. Some of those casuals eventually become enthusiasts who feed guilds.

I can't imagine any game that would grow very well when the casual base is constantly hunted and berated by enthusiasts.

If you want to make the game more fun for the average player, fight alongside them and help them. Help them defeat the guilds and groups farming them. Don't leave them at the tower or keep to fend for themselves against a Haxus or VE for an hour while your group of experienced players farms opposition casuals elsewhere.

Players will usually only stick around if they have good experiences. Those casuals and randoms you've wrecked at Bleaker's or Fare LM the past hour aren't having those.

Absolutely agree.

Though I'm still surprised we got where we are. We had a good history of guilds and groups trading places at the top. And then it's 2 years later, all those groups have mixed and condensed into 2-3 groups and the progress of groups beneath them is stagnant.

It's been sad watching the groups at the top remain unchanged and realizing no one is coming up to replace them.

This really set in for me when Rage disbanded. Before that there was always a new one. When our long fight with Deci ended there was Rage, when Nexus ended their was Haxus and GoS, etc. Then suddenly Rage was gone and there was nothing on AD to replace them.

I remember warning people that there was a lack of guilds behind Rage.

I mean, warnings are good and all but Rage's fate was in the hands of Rage. No one wanted them to disband but it wasn't in our hands

NACtron

I try to bring in new players whenever I can but for me raid quality comes first. And if we bring in too many new players into the raid quality drops like a cliff. I only try to bring in 1-2 new players every couple weeks. Any more than that and it throws off the raid. I think I am one of the more effective guilds that is comfortable bringing in that many new players in so quickly and there are only a dozen or so half decent guilds left. There is just not a lot of guilds left to train new players.

As for a casual base, yeah you need that. PM spent a full year playing casual before we decided to really try to be competive. But without that time training and bringing in casual players and making them into vets we would be nowhere. New guilds are often created by casuals banding together and creating a guild. This guild either grows out of its casual phase and beacomes more competive or withers and dies cause a casual guild can rarely keep a consistent player base for a long time. Espically if there is no improvement.

NBrookus

1 new player a week ends up being a fair amount over time. But large group discipline is not for everyone.

I don't think most people who occasionally pvp want to "git gud." They just want to be on the winning side of a bunch of fights - we all like winning, right? - and so they flock to the campaign where their faction is doing well. Once there, pack mentality sets in and they'll join 20 other players chasing down one guy and get a thrill out of it... or they'll follow the pack up to a resource farm and get wiped repeatedly.

I hope battlegrounds will provide an outlet for the casual pvp crowd to hop in and get their pvp thrills without dealing without the horse simulator and the rest of Cyrodiil. I hope healthy queues aren't hampered by being locked behind an additional software purchase. I really hope the issues on PTS with (nvm, NDA stuff) and premades versus pugs don't plague the live version. I'm not terribly optimistic, though.

Joy_Division

Skill gap is going to be high in any PvP game. ESO makes this worse because any non-tank build can pretty much insta-kill an inexperienced player wearing no impen.

Though I think if the lag wasn't terrible and there was a semblance of decent balance, ESO's core gameplay mechanics are fun enough to keep people motivated to come back and try to do better.

DHale

I am glad the skill gap is too high in pvp when I attack you and you stand there... you should be in Rawlka saying ww bite 5k.

Valencer

I think the lack of various levels of guild play has a lot to do with how they gutted group mechanics with the thieves guild update, to be honest. Rapid Maneuvers, Purge, Barrier etc

Only the best groups really make it work anymore. Youre not going to have a good time in a group where not everything is 100% on point. They simply took away the ability for good players to carry others.

That kind of carrying is essential for beginner level guilds where people have to learn to fit into a group