Skill Gap Too High for New Players in PVP?

IcyDeadPeople

The general ESO population has increased since One Tamriel and recently I've seen more new players in PVP, but I wonder if the skill gap for new players just starting in Cyrodiil is so much bigger now that nobody is going to have the kind of experience I had when I started, or whatever it was like the first time you tried PVP and got hooked. I see a lot of comments from PVE players who have tried PVP once or twice and felt like it was impossible.

When I started playing ESO during Psijic beta, for months I played this game pretty much as if it were Skyrim, just wandering around exploring the world. Zero plans to try PVP or even level any character all the way to max. Didn't even use wayshrines because I don't fast travel in Skyrim.

Then one day they asked everyone to go to Cyrodiil to participate in filming a big battle video for a trailer. Mind was blown. Suddenly I was in this massive sandbox world that turned out to be more fun than the rest of the game.

They told us all to make our way to some sort of siege battle going on at Chalman keep. Looked at the map and it seemed incredibly far - I believe I spawned somewhere near Brindle, walked up a nearby mountain and suddenly there was a stampede of 30 enemy players on horses running right at me. (I thought they must have been super rich guys to afford a horse.) An epic chase ensued and they followed me all over that mountain for a while. Finally killed me, but it was so cool, felt like an exciting adventure, more fun than the PVE areas.

I made it to Chalman and it was like an insane war zone with all kinds of explosions and magic spells flying everywhere. That whole day I stayed in Cyrodiil and had so much fun all over the map. Even in the little delves and towns you could find enemy players doing quests, ganking or people who came to gank the gankers etc.

Not even sure exactly what the appeal is, but 4 years later I'm still hooked on the PVP in this game. When I started, almost nobody had a clue. Obviously there were no youtube videos or website info during beta. There were guild groups, and some min/max players of course, and AD dominated the map for several months, but there were not a lot of people playing and most were around the same skill level.

Then finally ESO launched and it was fun as hell. So many new players everywhere - ten different campaigns, epic battles raging all over the map 24/7, even weeknights. And for at least a couple months still rather few people had a clue how to play this game. I mean if you figured out how to block you were so pro! If you had martial knowledge and warlock jewelry or whatever the various meta sets were back then, you were almost like a god. (And let's not even talk about vampire magicka DKs)

At this point the PVP population began to dwindle down to a fraction of what it had been. Some quit because they didn't want to play light armor magicka build. Others hated getting killed by vampire magicka DKs or didn't like the idea of rolling a new character and doing the veteran rank grind all over again etc. There was also a patch around this time that resulted in frame rate issues and crashes. And some people started to figure out stronger builds and group tactics. There were suddenly a number of big guild groups like MoonDie that would roll over everybody and heal in a tight zerg ball, just parked at Arrius mine all day farming AP off randoms. But still new players would join from time to time and figure out how to play within a few weeks or so.

Many patches later, now in 2017 you can finally roll viable stamina or magicka version of any class, light, medium or heavy armor all viable, and there are a lot of creative and interesting builds that would not have been possible with softcaps. There are also some amazing players, a lot of really good players and overall average skill level is much higher. And there are super strong ball groups, but on NA PC they seem to be roughly balanced between AD, DC and EP factions.

Is the skill gap too high? PVP population (including Battlegrounds) needs to grow massively if we want to have more than one main campaign, battles raging 24/7 all over the map and especially need tons of players queueing up around the clock for the BG match making.

What do you think? I know there are PVE players who do a lot of group PVE and trials etc, and then do their guild group PVP night or whatever and already know how to stack on crown etc, but how about all the solo players just hopping into some campaign for the first time? Especially all the people who will buy Morrowind because they are long time Elder Scrolls fans.

How do we get more new players hooked? For example, I'm sure I'd hate it for a while, but do we need to buff siege weapons or something? Some way for new players to feel like they are getting some kills? Or do we need a PVP tutorial arena?

Magıc

Felt the same way as above so haven't read^

As for the gap, that is why they are ruining the game after all, to help new and casuals players which in turns completely ruins competitive gameplay.

LeifErickson

Please no buffs to siege.

DHale

I am going to admit my hundreds of thousands of ap this weekend confirms... most pvp'ers are going to be on someone's one v x video soon, very soon. Welcome to Cyrodil.

DaveMoeDee

Based on the part I did read (the subject), I don't see a problem. It's AvAvA. You don't need noobs competitive out of the gate.

IcyDeadPeople

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Based on the part I did read (the subject), I don't see a problem. It's AvAvA. You don't need noobs competitive out of the gate.

You don't need noobs to be competitive out of the gate, but you do need noobs to keep coming out of that gate.

At launch noobs got killed quickly as well, but they had enough fun that they stuck around and got hooked on PVP. Now there is a much bigger skill gap and a lot of them are not sticking around.

When Morrowind launches it would be nice if there are tons of people queued up at all hours for the BG match making system.

Iyas

You could say the same for pve and group finder

RadioheadSh0t

Skill gap too high? Other than people starting with no experience or gear and I would say the skill gap is too low. It's far too easy for mediocre players to wrap themselves in cheese mechanics and gear and play above their skill.

Beardimus

I've found the learning curve pretty steep.

My early PvP experiences early console days were not good, id try a few times then leave for a few months as it wasn't fun getting killed and not knowing what was going on so id stick PvE.

Had a few attempts tho sometimes tagging onto a group and having more success, but I had to perceive. Things started to get easier as you earn CP sure, but then once you hit cap you realise the skill gap to the decent players is huge, feels like it takes months to get to that level, mainly as when you are learning you are dead too quick to learn anything.

I'm stubborn and see PvP as end game as trials are boring so am keeping with it. Problem is learning is varied as its random what kind of battle you may get into, small scale, xv1, zerg etc

Most of my mates have a similar experience to me, many won't go back to it because of that. But I'm stubborn and want to learn.

There is no fun in being insta dead over and over as a noob, which i think is your point... I guess all ZOS can do tho is keep Backwater Blade a true noob server.

Maybe they should ban Alts on BWB, so you only can take 1 toon thru it 1-50 per account, as there are alot of decent players in BwB on alts having a field day, and recreating new toons and its that experience that can suck.

timidobserver

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

Rohamad_Ali

Umm Marrowind PVP .. It will widen the gap . Currently to be good you just need a good build and moderate reflexes and reaction speed . Know a decent rotation . To be really good you need great timing and and great adaptability especially if fighting multiple players . Those really great players will stay really great in Marrowind because they master the mechanics . Good players will still struggle but I can see new players getting rekt hard under extreme resource pressure . That's my take on all this .

Only really dedicated new PVP players will hang in there for the learning curve and class is almost in session .

[Edit to remove irrelevant content]

Publius_Scipio

There is always a skill gap when you are new to something. That being said, the reality is that ESO does not have some Grand Canyon sized skill gap. Quite the contrary. Having a well optimized build (aka meta, aka op, aka whatever you want to call it) makes a massive amount of difference for any player including relatively new ones.

Right now you can be a super tank that can hold block and be beat on by 10 enemies and survive. You can be a magicka sorc, keep shields up, and dish out the best burst in the game right now. You can be a NB and dodge a ton of incoming dmg and not run out of breath. Pirate Skeleton and Troll King monster sets. And on and on and on.

The biggest obstacle in ESO by far is the grind/farm and RNG for the gear. Other than that, probably a quick YouTube video will tell you how to play any of the classes like a pro sponsored by Mountain Dew and Doritos. We'll see how Morrowind shakes out come June.

And that is the mother [snip] Scipio truth!

Zander98

My personal experience PC/NA. Been around since beta.
I have never enjoyed pep in any game except starcraft. Played through the story slowly then stumbled into cryo.
There is something that can happen to some people out there. It's like a sickness. You get hooked. I spent months being farmed. Fighting players that seemed unkillable. But I was hooked, looked through my skills and dusted myself off.
Along the way I met players, like Killercobra and Benzyboy who helped me understand certain game mechanics and get my bearings.
Kept testing different builds and dying. Watched as pvp kings when I started fall to the wayside. Or others I fought with give up. And I would die...and I would look at my skills.
My argument is that is kind of how it goes. Some people catch the illness. And work at it methodically. And make good helpful friends. And slowly get it.
And it might be s little more steep than it once was, but I'd say that is partially due to the lower population. And I see up and comers every day. Newer players dying but figuring it out. Enemies I used to not register that I now slow down when I see their name.
So I'd say, as the game goes on, it will boil down to new players catching the bug and going through what everyone did.
Though....I will say there aren't as many guilds willing to train new players as there once was. That would help more than anything.

Poliwrath

Naturally, there's going to be a large skill gap in a game that's been out for awhile, otherwise the long term players would feel like they've wasted their time. So, yes, the longer a game's been out the harder it will be to be competitive, but it's still completely possible. You just have to deal with getting stomped for longer, which new players should expect.

The only fair thing devs should do to minimize this is lower the barrier of entry into PvP, which they are doing with no cp battlegrounds. The other barrier, gear, is fairly easy to acquire compared to other games. PvE BiS may take a little longer but competitive PvP gear is relatively easy to get.

I don't see an issue.

Araxleon

meh.

kewl

You die allot, then you die less, then you study and learn from others. The path to gud is long grasshopper.

Publius_Scipio

The path through "gud" is spell check.

Hospitler

If you keep nurfing the game there is no reason to play. If there is no gap between a 600 and a 160 which in reality there isn't then why keep playing? The new people can bust their ass like the rest of us and quit crying. Literally almost everyone I know has quiet playing this game because of stupid crap like them scaling lower ranking people to equal the higher ranking players.

The-Baconator

I feel like it's never been easier to step into PvP as a new, adequately leveled and geared player and be successful. Yes people fresh out of blackwater have it about as rough as they've ever had it but there are plenty of gear setups that can cover lack of experience to a rather absurd extent. For example, when the game launched on console with 2.0\1.6 you could literally instakill players with plenty of combos if they did not react appropriately\act in anticipation of your combo appropriately. Now if you have reactive and +30k health you are literally impossible to take from full to dead with really any combo with zero inputs on your end. Really the buffs to heavy more generally have made the game more forgiving for the unskilled\inexperienced because there is no method of mitigation better for those that have no clue how use reactive\proactive defenses than relatively powerful passive defenses.

zyk

This has always been true in ESO. We'll never know how many players didn't bother to stick around. What we do know is that ESO PVP is not that popular -- based on the number of active characters in the most popular PC NA campaign, at least.

ESO has a lot of depth that is irrelevant for most PVE content, so few players bother to learn the systems. They are encouraged to play how they want to. We see the the results of this in the Group Finder threads. I would bet 99.9% of ESO players do not know how to build a competent PVP character.

ESO PVP has always had a culture of experienced players farming new players. Countless small scale/solo players consider it a faux pas to engage each other. 16-24 player groups typically look for the biggest AP payout if they're not playing the map. This is a game that incentivizes farming less effective players.

It goes beyond experience. Not all players have the same interest level or physical ability to compete. Just like in RL sports -- which are heavily segmented based on aptitude. No one would play basketball if all of the courts were camped by players like LeBron James attempting to 1/2vX them.

I've long believed it would have been beneficial to have mechanisms in place to right-size competition either by segmenting players based on aptitude or incentivizing experienced players to seek each other out. BWB and AS are not the answer as they attract players looking for easy kills.

Compare the ESO PVP new player experience to the Dota 2 new player experience and tell me which dev cares more about attracting (and keeping) new players.

kewl

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

The path through "gud" is spell check.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/git-gud

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GiT GuD

IxSTALKERxI

ESO is 90% gear 10% skill. New players get rekt because they don't have CP or any gear sets or monster helms, potions and they have no idea how to make a build that works well in cyrodiil. A lot of that comes from experience though.

Edit: Although after saying that at least it's not as bad as bdo. BDO is like 99.99% gear from good RNG and months of grinding and 0.01% skill.

Publius_Scipio

kewl wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

The path through "gud" is spell check.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/git-gud

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GiT GuD

Memes.... A modern virus that will not stop until the minds of all the children of the world have turned to mush.

Vapirko

The main problem is that the servers simply couldn't handle a huge influx of new players. There's just no way. I look forward to week nights when I can play without constant lag.

Takllin

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

The path through "gud" is spell check.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/git-gud

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GiT GuD

Memes.... A modern virus that will not stop until the minds of all the children of the world have turned to mush.

dank memes xd

Vanzen

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

Hummm ....

I dont know if am breaking the nda here ...

But pvp noobs wont even have the time to blink their eyes confronted to seasoned pvpers ...

timidobserver

Vanzen wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think that battlegrounds will fill the role of helping people with the skill gap.

Hummm ....

I dont know if am breaking the nda here ...

But pvp noobs wont even have the time to blink their eyes confronted to seasoned pvpers ...

The biggest thing that slows down learning in Cyrodiil is the lack of a real objective or direction. Everybody has their own objective depending on what they find fun. Taking keeps, killing people, not being killed, killing bigger groups, killing smaller groups, map control, trying to get emp, farming ap, ganking, campaign leaderboard, winning the campaign, solo roaming, defending keeps, ect.

Battlegrounds will have a single objective. To go into a maximum 15 minute match and win it. I expect people that wrap their head around pretty quickly. Step one will be figuring out how to not get instantly bursted down, which will probably be the topic of 50 youtube tutorial videos on launch day.

Cadbury

Takllin wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

The path through "gud" is spell check.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/git-gud

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GiT GuD

Memes.... A modern virus that will not stop until the minds of all the children of the world have turned to mush.

dank memes xd

It's because of these dank memes we have Harambe and Cash me outside.

Valencer

ESO PvP is way more about gear than skill now and compared to how the game was at launch it's a world of difference imo. People just need to be willing to farm a dungeon for hours, depending on the class/spec they want to play.

Main problem ESO has always had is that absolutely nothing is properly taught to new players by the game itself. As a dev you can fix that by either adding a proper learning experience to the game, or by dumbing mechanics down. ZOS has definitely gone with the second option.

Rickter

I agree with Esgameplaya - I love you Icy but that *** was too long, im going to get coffee and really read the whole thing but ffs seriously

I agree with Publius and Zane in that "git gud gap" is bridged by youtube builds and trollie proc sets. I also think that building for pure damage will and IS already a thing in morrowind. I plan on doing so because i dont have sustain issues in noCP campaign. BUT at the same time, Zane is right in that the really skilled players stand out so much its not even a contest.

case in point - I am pretty average when it comes to pvp. That being said, with the build and playstlye i do have, i feel like i can hold my own pretty well in most situations. But i dueled Calvary yesterday and lemme tell ya, he was leaps and bounds in skill gap.

out of 13 duels, i never won one and i only got close to beating him twice. We talked a lot afterwards, it was respectful, fun, and challenging for me at least but my point is that guys like Calvary are going to theorycraft and stay on top in morrowind.

EDIT: ok I read it. I know Requiem has brought in about 4 new players and they are hooked. I think there is immense desire and interest in pvp however, the apprehension is real. Like, its overwhelming. and the general outlook and toxicity of the ESO pvp community is threatening and unwelcoming. People need exposure - more importantly, the RIGHT exposure.

Requiem has always done this. We held and still hold boot camps. we tell people:

how to move around in cyrodiil - transitus is different than pve and needs to be explained
how to siege - whether thats from a resource, front door, alting off to cast, etc we explain how to siege a keep
how to play to your class' strengths - what cc options people have availabe, escapes, ultimates etc

There is absolutely, positively NO excuse why people cant get into cyrodiil and have fun. I know Requiem isnt the only ones like this. there are tonnes of guilds ready and able to help new players but the most important thing is the proper EXPOSURE. and we aint talkin 1vX

I see people in other guilds too, they are pvping solo, i whisper them they are usually more than happy to group up - like, why you pvping alone? open your guild roster and if you see a guildie in cyro - ask what's up - people are introverts. and sometimes all it takes is someone willing to reach out and have some patience.

SneaK

Skill*Power Gap