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A New Race? Hmm...

  • KochDerDamonen
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    Zarkeson wrote: »
    -long post that I do not wish to expand the page with again, scroll up to post #143-

    @Zarkeson Sorry but, what?
    - Craglorn is 'new'
    Locations and their names can be missing or changed easily, having an area of the map make an appearance when it is under a different name in-future (sp games) is no issue at all so long as the 'future' sources make no hardened claims of a location being a particular way in this past time. Craglorn is new, but is nothing jarring. A slice of the map is not comparable to injecting a race that would suddenly be all over the map(players) and inexplicably missing and unrecorded in-future.
    - ZOS can do whatever they want (citing nerfs)
    The lorebooks do not announce that once upon a time the Templar's spear shards restored a certain amount of stamina after being lifted from the ground by an ally. That would be weird. ZOS can certainly play with the lore (a bit too much in some cases), and it's inevitably going to make less sense than usual because MMO, but comparing mechanical balance changes to this doesn't really hold up.
    - furries
    I'm not clear as to whether you are responding to the people calling this 'furry' as a furry yourself or not, but your explanation isn't going to mean anything to them if they even come back to read it. As someone who fancies himself a 'furry', I do not think pointing out that the word means something along the lines of 'thing that has fur' is helpful or descriptive of what is being referred to. Your best bet is just not responding to that sort of comment, if you don't like them. :p
    - not wanting to 'break' lore, wanting to 'expand' it
    To be frank, you can 'expand' a balloon by blowing more air into it, or by jamming a pole into the entrance and stretching it out. One of those choices distorts the original usage and form of the balloon, the way one thinks of it when they perform the action doesn't really change that. In this case, at least. A decrease in variety is the price we pay for a more cohesive setting crafted to hold itself together. TES isn't the most consistent or serious series, but there's a easily seen line between it and say a lobby in a game like SecondLife where things just... are.
    - Give us our character.
    If you think it's rough liking wolves and wishing to play as them, imagine being someone that doesn't want to play a canine, or a feline, or a variety of bird, or dragon... I've never once played a game where my favorite sort of animal was a playable character, as a feral beast or anthropomorphic creature. It's never bothered me, but I certainly keep a bit of an eye out for it. One can do whatever they wish when creating a 'character' for themselves. Fitting a character into a pre-made world restricts you, gives you things that are in the process of existing and constraints to mold them within. I think it's fun trying to adapt a character to a world. :p

    -insert post #149-

    -My point on the craglorn/new lore topic is to point out that craglorn does not go against any lore, it's simply not something explained or mentioned before. It's not like in the future(singleplayer games) there's a big old lake there, or some other ancient civilization that would have take the space up. It's unexplained because there's just nothing about it, unlike the sudden appearance/disappearance of a race which should have an impact on the lore as a whole. It's like adding jet planes to the Silmarillion(spelling?), and having them completely absent from any tales told or events within tolkien's stories.
    -Lots of people despise Argonians, there are also people like me who only have argonian characters. If ZOS went ahead and added an anthro-wolf race on a whim, I imagine a fair chunk of the remaining playerbase would use them. Wolves are a popular animal, and if their racial passives were any good they'd be as plentiful as khajiit.
    -I would never make an elven character because I generally dislike the elves, but they hold a place in the established lore and their existence and cultures and events involving them are absolutely fine by me. The sudden anthro-wolves are not disliked for what they are, they are unwanted because they hold no presence. ESO's place in the timeline is extra restrictive, it's far in the past from all other TES titles and is already tenuously disliked by many for its toying with historied events. ZOS doesn't really have a path to explaining the appearance and disappearance of a new racial population without pushing away players who like the existing TES lore. I did read your entire paragraph, and the conclusion is true. If ZOS decides to do something and does it, we have no recourse other than complaining or withdrawing any funds we put into the game. This conclusion does not dismiss any reasons put forward against suggestions for the game, it's a non-starter.
    -It's not that I do not like your comment on furries, I would have ignored it entirely if it were a random tangent unrelated to other posts in the thread itself. I find it unhelpful to respond to comments like that with misdirection and sidestepping, it makes it look like you have something to hide or a bone to pick. It's defensive and pointless, just as the original comments were offensive(as in: aggressive and forward, not "I'm offended"...) and pointless.
    -Balloons are very similar to lore, or libraries. The foundational aspects of the lore is the physical balloon itself. "This place is called X and borders Y and Z" "Y is populated by A and B" "B defends A from the people of X during a war". The physical balloon can be expanded with more balloon-material, and can be puffed up with auxiliary tales(or air) like the specific story of a member of "B" and their experiences in the aforementioned war. Inserting something into the past can be either sort of thing, if it's a revolutionary discovery about the past it would be balloon, if it was a specific story or artifact or minor revelation on the specifics of an event it would be air. A new race to the universe could be balloon if it comes into play in the present/future, and could also be air or balloon if they are introduced as the missing explanation for features of the world (as the Dwemer are), but if introduced into the past with no presence in the future (existing singleplayer titles) it's more akin to trying to expand the balloon by pricking it with a needle, or trying to stuff the inside with something other than an appropriate gas. I don't see why a bear cannot do a teleport strike, it's about as nonsensical as a cat summoning beams of sunlight to stab a giant manticore to death.
    -Referring back to me only having Argonian characters, I have no problem with animal/anthro characters and I would absolutely adore a game that let me play as some sort of weasel... well, for a little bit, until I decided the whether the game itself was fun to me. I could play as whatever I want in a chatroom style game (SecondLife, again) but I don't find the 'game' itself entertaining or substantive. My problem with the addition of a wolf race has nothing to do with what the race is, but that it holds no presence in the game world. Adding Moarmer would be weird, Lilmothiit would be pushing the envelope quite a lot, adding a race that's never seen or mentioned or even hinted at into a game that takes place in the past (in comparison to singleplayer titles) has gone out of the park left field.
    -I would never assume you were trying to attack what I am saying, I respond in blocks of text because I find the topic interesting and important (at least, as important as discussing the details of fictional lore in an off-shoot of a video game series might be :P), not because I want to shoot you down or make an argument.
    Edited by KochDerDamonen on May 2, 2017 2:02AM
    If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    @starkerealm
    As I said in previous statements, it is more of the skill of integration. With proper chain formation, the pieces fit together easily. And as I said before, we don't want the obvious races that won't work at all, like bears using teleport strike; that would look very odd... or not since there are fat players. And did you know there is a goblin morph and it seems to work very well in the game. Goblins DO run around in TESO doing adventures and such. Also draugers and dremora... Nothing is impossible my friend. So typically the goblin DID save the king.
    Apparently it works!
    The new race can arrive from a far off land or of an unexplored region. They have just begun to open their doors to the outside world.
  • WhitePawPrints
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    For example, a large dwemer city that survived the 'extinction'
    ...which we -know- didn't happen from the lore. For one, the dwemer "extinction" was planewide, all of them, everywhere in mundus, gone in an instant. Not some localized disaster that some far off outpost could survive. For another, we know from the records in TES games that take place in a millenia, that only one dwemer survived, and no other had been found in all that time, so no surviving city was unearthed in that time period beetween ESO and TES:Skyrim.

    Depending on how you read some of the stuff from Kirkbride (and Yagrum Bagarn's dialog), the implication is the Dwarven extinction was transdimensional. Taking any Dwarves wandering around in other planes with it.
    Actually if that were the case, he would have been taken as well. Since the only thing that we know about how he remained was that he was on another plane during that time...
    "New" races are impossible due to lore.

    But there still are a few races that are in the lore, and could become crown bought player races.
    Unfortunately for the lupine lovers, no definitive wolf race.
    Let's review all the possibilities and how possible they might be:

    Maormer - sea elves are around, and going strong, as valid a player race as imperials.
    YES.

    Reachmen - might be just bretons, but if the people at ZOS really wanted they could make them as slightly different offshoot race...
    YES.

    Goblins - are rather primitive, but they have speech, have their own crafting style and can use magic - that sounds intelligent enough that an exceptional member of their race could be a vestige type hero of sorts.
    YES.

    Imga - the man-apes of Valenwood who really want to, well, ape high elves are in the lore, but curiously absent during this time, possibly hiding somewhere from this time of troubles... but could plausibly be made into a player race...
    YES.

    Akaviri - are actually four beast races, snake-scaly Tsaesci, monkey Tang-Mo, tigerish Ka-Po'Tun and "snow demon" Kamal which could mean anything from yeti to whatever, as long as they hibernate during the winter to give birth to the legends of them being "frozen solid" during that time... which might indicate an cold-blooded reptilian race, that could go well with the tales about the last invasion which was kama-driven from all I recall of the lore... (Come to think of it though, actually freezing solid and then reviving is more something I dimly recall spiders doing...) In any case, those races might be possible as player race, leftovers from the ill-fated invasion of skyrim and morrowind ten years before ESO.
    YES.

    (One possibility would be having some of those races available for only some alliances... like, maormer can join covenant and pact, but not dominion because of the trouble they have with maormer invasion attempts, and akaviri could join dominion and covenant, but not pact since they are still annoyed over the invasion, and reachmen could join dominion and pact, but not covenant because they are too miffed about all the trouble they get from the reach, etc.)

    Kothringi - the silver skinned humans of black marsh all died in the knarhaten flu, one way or another (undead doesn't count). But that was a mere twenty years before ESO, so there might be sone lone survivors still around... not enough to continue their race, but enough for an double price crown store race, if the powers that be decide that way...
    MAYBE.

    Lilmothiit - same for the fox people of black marsh, officially died out twenty years ago, but might be good for an lone survivor or a handful around.
    MAYBE.

    Sload - the slug people of the western isles have been defeated and driven from tamriel ages ago, and would not be all that suitable as player race anyhow. Maybe someday we might see them as enemies, but that's it I'd think...
    UNLIKELY.

    Naga - are mentioned in the lore as beatrace in black marsh, similar to argoinains but bigger and more snakelike, and most liklely eill end up impractical as player race much like ogres or giants.
    UNLIKELY.

    Ayleids - are long gone by this time, you can meet the last of their kind in the course of the main story. But as players, nope, the races remains have long since ben assimilated into other elven races (mostly altmer, since they were most likely to give any alessian-rebellion fleeing ayleids shelter throughout tamriel history)
    NOPE.

    Falmer - the ice elves of old are gone and done, their blind descendants roam the dwemer ruins beneath skyrim and are likely way to bestial at this time to be more vialble as player race then, say, zombies...
    NOPE.

    Chimer - are dunmer now.
    NOPE.

    Yokudans - are redguards now.
    NOPE.

    Nedes/Atmorans - are nords now. Or bretons. Or imperials.
    NOPE.

    Dwemer - are all gone save one and that one is the last living dwarf...
    DOUBLE NOPE.

    Dremora - are effectively demons in the TES lore, and would but be viable as any sort of player race in the world of tamriel - even the most hardened quest giver would run in terror from them, and ask other adventurers to kill the daedra, vendors would refuse to deal with them and run instead, and the city guard would attack them at sight. Not to mention, the mainstory would make a LOT less sense this way. (even though it would be sooo nifty if they ever made a TES game where you can play daedric races through all the planes of oblivion, and enter mundus as "hostile world" questing area to do the bidding of your daedric prince or when summoned by a mortal... ;) But alas, not this game.)
    TRIPLE NOPE.

    ...so, I think that was all roughly player-sized humanoid races I could recall off the top pf my head...

    You forgot goblins...
    Nope, look again, they are there, after Reachmen, before Imga...
    A wolf race is not too likely. Lilmothiit is a reasonable choice, and maybe they can be expanded to include more wolf-like breeds.

    The Lilmothiit are believed to be extinct, wiped out by Knahaten Flu because there has not been a surviving record of them being seen since the Flu. The second era war have few surviving records though, which is why ZoS has so much freedom, lore-wise, and if any Lilmothiit were seen, then it's likely no record of them survived and no accurate tales of them were passed down during this time. It is very feasible for the Lilmothiit to be added, and hopefully with some very interesting and well-thought out story on why they're not seen after this era, and rarely seen at all. (Origin story?)

    The Lilmothiit should be added similar to the Imperials, with no ties to any faction. I don't imagine they'd have any interest in the war, and probably would be more interested in their surviving members leaving Tamriel.
    Actually, we know they are "mostly extinct" at this time.

    Since we have our lore from two viewpoints, the one in ESO, and the one from the other TES games, set 800-1400 or so years after ESO... and thus we know that in all those centuries, there have been no mentions of the lilmothiit surviving, no mentions of anyone encountering one after the knarhaten flu, but we do have only mentions of their extinction during it. Also, that prison you visit in Shadowfen? Used to be a large lilmothiit settlement if i recall my lore correctly...

    However, an extinction is not usually an "poof, gone" event... and the knarhatan flu was only 20 years before the ESO time. So, as I mentioned, there could quite plausibly be some remaining ones wandering around... who were not home in black marsh when the flu hit... too few to sustain a viable population, but enough for some "last survivor" type player characters.

    Here's what I've found:
    ...In additional to the reptilian Argonians, who are today Black Marsh's most visible denizen, there were once tribes of men - Kothringi, Orma, Yespest, Horwalli - and tribes of mer - the Barsaebic Ayleids and the Cantemiric Velothi - and even a tribe who may have been related to the Khajiit of Elsweyr, the vulpine Lilmothiit. Some were sent to Black Marsh as refugees of prisoners, other settled along the coastal waterways and adapted to its strange and usually insalubrious environment.

    The cities of Stormhold and Gideon were originally founded by the Ayleids (their Ayleid names are unknown), but were so far removed from their culture in the heartland that they never were attacked by the Alessian army when it rose in revolt. The southern coastal regions, not surprisingly, were the realms of the Lilmothiit, though they were a nomadic group and left few enduring signs of their existence that were not covered up by later civilizations. The Black Marsh elves settled in the eastern regions near present-day Archon, Arnesia, and Thorn....

    The only other references I know of that I cannot pull are from one of two published novels: The Infernal City: An Elder Scrolls Novel.

    I doubt I'll find a text based version of the novel online to quote. Further investigation into this reference will be needed. There is little on the Knahaten Flu other than it wiped out the Kothringi:
    In CE560, the Knahaten Flu spread through greater Argonia, claiming the lives of the Kothringi tribesmen, the only humans to have persisted in the area for long.

    And making Black Marsh uninhabitable for all but the Argonians:
    Black Marsh forcibly split from the lands of men, as the Knahaten Plague made the land uninhabitable by all but the Argonians themselves.

    There is very little on the Lilmothiit. The novel is believed to be canon, so that is some material I still need to review.
    Edited by WhitePawPrints on May 2, 2017 2:27AM
    Dozens of core groups that I participated in have left the game. We would bring our grievances here, but after years of white knights on the forum shouting down legitimate complaints, backed up by the inconsistent and biased hammer of moderators, we have all moved onto other games. Enjoy the sinking ships you've built whiteknights.
  • SydneyGrey
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    Arato wrote: »
    No, ZOS is not obligated to add a race that doesn't fit the lore or the other several TES games at the whims of some furry.
    Seriously what the heck. :# My niece loves the beast races, and she doesn't even know what a furry IS. (She's a kid.) She just thinks the Argonians and Khajiits are cool. Just because someone likes the beast races doesn't mean they're a "furry."



    Edited by SydneyGrey on May 2, 2017 2:17AM
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    @KochDerDamonen
    Precisely! Craglorn is something NEW. A canine race can be something new. Ideas are never limited to explain where and how their arrival came to be. Much like Craglorn, the new race come from a land never before known by lore, but is integrated into lore. This is a very clear advantage.
    It is noticeable people fear a wave of a canine race, but as you said, there are people who hate a certain creature, therefore the balance and control of flow is administered properly. People whom truly find interest in that race, place that character as their main.
    Furry thing: Yes I agree mentioning that topic is off topic. Just trying to point out to those who improperly and disjunctly use the term as a weak offense, intended merely to insult, discourage. It shouldn't be misused.
    Balloon thing: It is clear you are saying that ideas have bounds. We don't want something totally off like a, say a Treant race, doing some impossible moves. A canine race is very similar to khajiits, therefore poses no harm. It does not break lore, but rather contributes more. And if I'm assuming correctly you are saying that because canines do not exist in Skyrim, it is not logical to apply their prescence in TESO which is approximately 1000 years in the past. True, but remember Skyrim is ONLY Skyrim, and is not limited to the vast expanses beyond. And who are we to know the travels and adventures within those 1000 years? Perhaps the canines joined the Akavir nation; or they truly died off? And speaking of the future, perhaps the TES 6(if it comes) can properly introduce this new canine race, and all the lore thereafter. Integration with flow is not a hard thing.
    And for the dwemer, the mystery of their disappearance is yet to be solved. Perhaps there is a city of the last dwarves of Tamriel... hidden so much as the clockwork city. The possibilities are ever bountiful.
    Adding Maomer is not exactly weird, for they are literally in the game space already; mostly Aldmeri parts.

    And gratitudes for keeping this topic civil and productive :smiley:
    Edited by FoulSnowpaw on May 2, 2017 2:28AM
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
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    Its not so much about describing where something comes from now but moreso why I vanishes from knowledge in future games. I.E. no mention of new races in games set after the events of ESO
  • WhitePawPrints
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    A wolf race is not too likely. Lilmothiit is a reasonable choice, and maybe they can be expanded to include more wolf-like breeds.

    The Lilmothiit are believed to be extinct, wiped out by Knahaten Flu because there has not been a surviving record of them being seen since the Flu. The second era war have few surviving records though, which is why ZoS has so much freedom, lore-wise, and if any Lilmothiit were seen, then it's likely no record of them survived and no accurate tales of them were passed down during this time. It is very feasible for the Lilmothiit to be added, and hopefully with some very interesting and well-thought out story on why they're not seen after this era, and rarely seen at all. (Origin story?)

    The Lilmothiit should be added similar to the Imperials, with no ties to any faction. I don't imagine they'd have any interest in the war, and probably would be more interested in their surviving members leaving Tamriel.

    The problem with this is the kinds of things people are prone to remembering, not that there's no surviving records. It's one thing to go, "oh, hey, there's a hero over there, they're a Breton/Imperial/Altmer/Whatever," which is a race they see every day, so they're less likely to make a special note of it.

    When that random hero is of a race they never or almost never seen, like, say, a Falmer, they are far more likely to make a note of it, meaning it becomes substantially more likely that some records will survive, saying, "hey, did you see that weird Snow Elf?" At that point, it's far less likely that all of the records would be lost, and you'd see reports popping up in letters, people's journals, and in other places.

    This also carries over even with fairly common races operating outside their normal range of behavior, "Hey, you won't believe what I just heard. Apparently there's a goblin trying to save the King. Wacky, right?"

    You are right that people would remember amazing acts of a rare species. It would making having the Lilmothiit a playable race a difficult feat to accomplish.

    Lilmothiit did not keep records or leave much behind of proof of their existence, but others witnessing the acts of the Lilmothiit would no doubt record it. There are a few reasons that records may be destroyed, or altered though. Pride, censorship and purging.

    Pride: If a Lilmothiit does heroic actions then the factions may change the tales to better fit the agenda of any particular faction. All factions are liable to this.

    Censorship: Propaganda can alter truths quite easily, and this is very real in our world. I do not recall many forms of propaganda existing in the Elder Scrolls games, but it no doubt exists. The closest example would probably be the Thalmor.

    Purge: In an effort to create unity, burning of documents and slaughter of entire cultures has been a common practice in human history. If the Lilmothiit were to gain the disfavor of any race, they don't have the numbers to defend themselves on the continent of Tamriel. Either of the two previous reasons could lead to this as well.

    Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is separated by 800 years, and Elder Scrolls V is separated by 1000 years. That is a long time for any records to be destroyed. With the technology available, even if the records are on a sturdy material, like parchment or hide, it would have to be copied several times throughout those 800 years by scribes. So if anyone does record it, that piece of recording has to survive the wars of the second era (which theoritically does come with the fall and rise of multiple factions, not just the three we have now), and to be copied and secured for all that time. How many documents have been changed, or destroyed, since year 1017AD?

    EDIT: Forgot to add that information can easily be misinterpreted. Word of mouth is like playing a game of telephone. One could say Lilmothiit, and since they're not well known, the listener can confuse it with Khajiit and thus spread the tale of how a heroic Khajiit saved the world of Nirn. Or there is a far worse misinterpretation that can occur: translating. How difficult is it to understand Shakespeare, and that English is only 400-500 years old? If the language of the inhabitants differs any, which we see very little of, then each translation can dramatically alter everything about a document.
    Edited by WhitePawPrints on May 2, 2017 2:35AM
    Dozens of core groups that I participated in have left the game. We would bring our grievances here, but after years of white knights on the forum shouting down legitimate complaints, backed up by the inconsistent and biased hammer of moderators, we have all moved onto other games. Enjoy the sinking ships you've built whiteknights.
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    @Bobby_V_Rockit
    As said before, Skyrim is but one place. Anything could have happened in those 1000 years prior to Skyrim also. The Lykaios could have joined the Akavir nation, or simply reside humbly in low profile in less traffic regions of Tamriel.
    Future Elder Scrolls games can easily integrate this new canine race, with the proper lore and threading of events.
  • Betsararie
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    There is no wolf race in Elder Scrolls

    Strongly against this idea
    Edited by Betsararie on May 2, 2017 2:32AM
  • KochDerDamonen
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    Zarkeson wrote: »

    Precisely! Craglorn is something NEW. A canine race can be something new. Ideas are never limited to explain where and how their arrival came to be. Much like Craglorn, the new race come from a land never before known by lore, but is integrated into lore. This is a very clear advantage.
    It is noticeable people fear a wave of a canine race, but as you said, there are people who hate a certain creature, therefore the balance and control of flow is administered properly. People whom truly find interest in that race, place that character as their main.
    Furry thing: Yes I agree mentioning that topic is off topic. Just trying to point out to those who improperly and disjunctly use the term as a weak offense, intended merely to insult, discourage. It shouldn't be misused.
    Balloon thing: It is clear you are saying that ideas have bounds. We don't want something totally off like a, say a Treant race, doing some impossible moves. A canine race is very similar to khajiits, therefore poses no harm. It does not break lore, but rather contributes more. And if I'm assuming correctly you are saying that because canines do not exist in Skyrim, it is not logical to apply their prescence in TESO which is approximately 1000 years in the past. True, but remember Skyrim is ONLY Skyrim, and is not limited to the vast expanses beyond. And who are we to know the travels and adventures within those 1000 years? Perhaps the canines joined the Akavir nation; or they truly died off? And speaking of the future, perhaps the TES 6(if it comes) can properly introduce this new canine race, and all the lore thereafter. Integration with flow is not a hard thing.
    And for the dwemer, the mystery of their disappearance is yet to be solved. Perhaps there is a city of the last dwarves of Tamriel... hidden so much as the clockwork city. The possibilities are ever bountiful.
    Adding Maomer is not exactly weird, for they are literally in the game space already; mostly Aldmeri parts.

    And gratitudes for keeping this topic civil and productive :smiley:

    Well, we do have a race of treants sort of, but the Spriggan aren't really interested in the affairs of civilization and would rather throw bees at us for disturbing the rabbits or some old ruin or something. The wolf race isn't just missing in the future, there's nothing to suggest the existence of a race that once was and no longer is like the Dwemer have, not to mention a race existing in tamriel during ESO's timeline in large enough numbers to participate in the 200-year war would surely be recorded. That is to say, when I say 'presence' I mean any sort of presence at all, written records, spoken tales, ruins, something to hint at the existence of something lost. An entire race, a race plentiful enough to be played in the setting during recorded history, should have more than that even.
    If TES VI introduced a new race through some event or reason, it would be a little weird but there's nothing that would go against it. The Dwemer could reappear too, but it wouldn't really make sense for them to make an appearance in ESO for the same reasons. I think new foundational aspects of the lore belong in 'future' events, it's already maddening (to me) that in Morrowind (TES III, not the expansion to ESO... ugh, why did they call it that instead of Vvardenfell...) there is plentiful crossbows (and throwing weapons, cultural maybe but come on) and then in Oblivion and Skyrim those things mysteriously fade away until the Dawnguard is like "lele xD ye dude Dwemer crossbows to fight the vampires!!!"
    The Maormer would be 'weird' and not 'pushing the envelope quite a lot' or worse, because they do exist and in fairly large amounts but seem ultimately uninterested in the politics and events of Tamriel and would much rather terrorize and attempt to conquer land for themselves. It would be hard to brush off a large presence of Maormer on the mainland taking interest in civilian and political events, I can't imagine a way it would make sense without severely limiting the number of players allowed to be Maormer, or involving some event as out of place as just adding a new race entirely.
    If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    Precisely! Craglorn is something NEW.

    No, it's not. Dragonstar appeared in one of the phone games, as I recall. I think it was also in Arena, though I'm less certain. Dragonstar and Belkarth show up on Tamriel maps, as far back as 2004. Though, technically, Dragonstar is supposed to be part of Skyrim (at least in the Third Era).
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
    Bobby_V_Rockit
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    But to have no records whatsoever of it? Seems illogical to me. Skyrim's history is part of the alliance war and the involved races would be recorded along with it regardless of whether or not those races ever occupied the region or not.
  • coop500
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    You know those screaming 'Lore' make me laugh with this game. You want to know what else is lore breaking/immersion breaking?

    There are no records of people running around doing hard dungeons/saving people in bath towels, in their underwear and so on.

    Everyone in ESO land is perfectly okay with large furry wolf beasts with huge claws, red eyes and all roaming cities. Oh and there are also no reconds of anyone having been saved by a khajiit werewolf.

    There are also no records of the many many pale skinned, red eyed monsters called vampires roaming around in hoards either.

    The guards in Anvil and Kvatch wear invisible blindfolds apparently, why else can they not notice all the dead bodies?

    Oh and what about those people who sweep the ground right on one or even two of their dead selves? No records of that either.

    Need I go on?
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still!

    Mostly plays on PC EU now
  • KochDerDamonen
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    coop500 wrote: »
    You know those screaming 'Lore' make me laugh with this game. You want to know what else is lore breaking/immersion breaking?

    There are no records of people running around doing hard dungeons/saving people in bath towels, in their underwear and so on.

    Everyone in ESO land is perfectly okay with large furry wolf beasts with huge claws, red eyes and all roaming cities. Oh and there are also no reconds of anyone having been saved by a khajiit werewolf.

    There are also no records of the many many pale skinned, red eyed monsters called vampires roaming around in hoards either.

    The guards in Anvil and Kvatch wear invisible blindfolds apparently, why else can they not notice all the dead bodies?

    Oh and what about those people who sweep the ground right on one or even two of their dead selves? No records of that either.

    Need I go on?

    @coop500 There is also no record of giant physics-enabled *** bats (SR3), dakimakura (waifu pillows), $10 microtransaction particle effects(idk, half of all F2P games?), or CHEETOS(R) CRUNCHY cheese snacks. I guess ZOS should get right on adding those things too.

    Where is the line drawn between not fitting in the game, and fitting in the game. Your points related to very specific events and mechanical oddities, not the existence and prompt un-existence of an entire race. Even after that, ESO (and the TES series as a whole) is not the pinnacle of sticking to its own lore, but goodness we can at least encourage them to try a little.
    If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].
  • coop500
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    People are up in arms about a fox race running around saving people and there being no records of it, how is this different then there being no records of werewolves and vampires doing the same? Werewolves especially, giant furred canine monsters? But those are okay, for some reason.

    Also cheetoes and micro trannsactions are Real World things, so don't even try to compare the two. Werewolves are a part of the game, cheetoes are not.
    Edited by coop500 on May 2, 2017 3:39AM
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still!

    Mostly plays on PC EU now
  • starkerealm
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    coop500 wrote: »
    People are up in arms about a fox race running around saving people and there being no records of it, how is this different then there being no records of werewolves and vampires doing the same? Werewolves especially, giant furred canine monsters? But those are okay, for some reason.

    Also cheetoes and micro trannsactions are Real World things, so don't even try to compare the two. Werewolves are a part of the game, cheetoes are not.

    There are plenty of records of werewolves. Hell, there are records of Vampires becoming Emperor. But, no records of Fox people doing anything more heroic than hiding in the swamps and dying from the flu.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • coop500
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    coop500 wrote: »
    People are up in arms about a fox race running around saving people and there being no records of it, how is this different then there being no records of werewolves and vampires doing the same? Werewolves especially, giant furred canine monsters? But those are okay, for some reason.

    Also cheetoes and micro trannsactions are Real World things, so don't even try to compare the two. Werewolves are a part of the game, cheetoes are not.

    There are plenty of records of werewolves. Hell, there are records of Vampires becoming Emperor. But, no records of Fox people doing anything more heroic than hiding in the swamps and dying from the flu.

    Show me a record of a werewolf doing something heroic then, in werewolf form.
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still!

    Mostly plays on PC EU now
  • chaserstorm16909
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    werewolf_concept_by_dreamingwanderer-d9gfmn0.jpg

    Ah a fine depiction.

    Picture by Arc Roto Deviant Art NOT me. I take NO credit for the art.

    We already have those. They're called werewolves.
  • SydneyGrey
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    But to have no records whatsoever of it? Seems illogical to me.
    But who says you (or I) have read every single book and paper every single person in Tamriel ever wrote? We're talking periods of hundreds of years, here, in an age where they don't even have the printing press to mass-produce books. LOL. As someone else said, the fox people had only been gone 20 years at the time of ESO. Maybe some very sad remnants exist somewhere. Maybe they only truly die out when those last surviving members die of old age, scratching their fleas and remembering when they were part of a towering civilization.

    *Sips coffee.*
    *Realizes I'm in the silliest discussion on record.*
    *Sips more coffee*
    B)

  • starkerealm
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    coop500 wrote: »
    coop500 wrote: »
    People are up in arms about a fox race running around saving people and there being no records of it, how is this different then there being no records of werewolves and vampires doing the same? Werewolves especially, giant furred canine monsters? But those are okay, for some reason.

    Also cheetoes and micro trannsactions are Real World things, so don't even try to compare the two. Werewolves are a part of the game, cheetoes are not.

    There are plenty of records of werewolves. Hell, there are records of Vampires becoming Emperor. But, no records of Fox people doing anything more heroic than hiding in the swamps and dying from the flu.

    Show me a record of a werewolf doing something heroic then, in werewolf form.

    Well, who can forget that werewolf who ripped off Fargoth's head and punted it 30 meters into the water?

    Though, in point of fact, you're moving the goalposts. Werewolves are a documented part of Tamriel. You can find books on the varieties of Lycanthropes, the metaphysical origins of them, multiple thoughts on how to cure the affliction. Tamerilic Lycanthropy is pretty well documented. Some of the rarer variants, like Weresharks, are more dubious, but you'd be hard pressed to say that Werewolves don't exist.

    In contrast, Lilmothiit... kinda, don't. There's a handful of mentions. They pop up very rarely in the literature. There hasn't been a confirmed sighting of one alive in over 20 years (by the time ESO starts). (It might actually be 40 years.) They're believed to be extinct.

    Now, consider the number of scholars and important figures you interact with during the course of the main quests? I can understand someone like Jakarn or Jimila not realizing you're something weird. I could understand someone like Gabrielle, Neramo, or even Galarion not caring enough to make a point. But, we also have a lot of characters like Telenger who would make a note of the player, as a curiosity, if they were something odd enough to raise a blip. Hell, Telenger wrote, and published, an essay on the Lusty Argonian Maid. You're telling me this guy isn't going to say, "oh, hey, you'll never believe what I found at a dig site the other day after it was overrun by the irrationally angry spirits who's graves we'd been desecrating for the last several weeks."
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • starkerealm
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    werewolf_concept_by_dreamingwanderer-d9gfmn0.jpg

    Ah a fine depiction.

    Picture by Arc Roto Deviant Art NOT me. I take NO credit for the art.

    We already have those. They're called werewolves.

    It would be kinda cool if your tattoos transferred over onto your werewolf form... somehow. Not, you know, something that would need to happen, but still, cool.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    @chaserstorm16909
    No. Werewolves don't look like that, and certainly cannot enjoy the short time it runs. Werewolves are bigger, more savage, and brute. Giving a weak excuse to hinder a possible progression is not productive.
    The Lykaios would look similar to khajiit, but are canines in that sense.
  • chaserstorm16909
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    @chaserstorm16909
    No. Werewolves don't look like that, and certainly cannot enjoy the short time it runs. Werewolves are bigger, more savage, and brute. Giving a weak excuse to hinder a possible progression is not productive.
    The Lykaios would look similar to khajiit, but are canines in that sense.

    Okay. Then we should also get a new race of vampires. But not those evil blood sucking ones. We could call them the Vampiros and make them look similar to dark elves only paler.
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    Read the past few comments. Going to say there are a lot of "side" races and not much is really concerned about them.

    There are a lot of quests involving vampire hunters(fighter's guild), and it is a little odd for them to say "I will slay every last one of those vampires" when you yourself are a vampire. Note they make NO recognition of your race at all. This does not apply only to vampires but to draugers, skeletons, dremora, even spectres. Count also those bath robe heroes. Hardly at all if any does TESO environment recognize your character.
    My point is integrating another race has little or no impact. People keep assuming they know the rest of Tamriel or of the Akavir or even other unknown continents, but have not seen or heard of them yet. Surely Nirn has more than you'd expect, thus ZOS has not created an actual world(global) map.
    The common mistake is relying on mere eyewitnesses of lore, assuming all is true because of a single npc. I could say the dwarves are dead in real life, but in reality they are not. It is easy to add more testimonials of various well known NPCs to make a rising occurrence true.
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    @chaserstorm16909
    That is why people want Maomer, the sea elves. It would be nice to have them as well.
  • Galwylin
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    Wow. Paragraphs missing? Okay.

    My viewpoint is why stretch lore when we don't have all the races available that we interact with in this game alone. Once those are in then whatever floats your boat. Couldn't they just update the werewolf appearance and solve some of this?

    I'm looking forward to gnomes myself >:)
  • SydneyGrey
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    Galwylin wrote: »
    Couldn't they just update the werewolf appearance and solve some of this?
    I hope not. I love the way the werewolves look. <3

  • starkerealm
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    @chaserstorm16909
    No. Werewolves don't look like that, and certainly cannot enjoy the short time it runs. Werewolves are bigger, more savage, and brute. Giving a weak excuse to hinder a possible progression is not productive.
    The Lykaios would look similar to khajiit, but are canines in that sense.

    If werewolf is a short transform, then that's a L2P issue. I say this as someone who's leveled werewolf from 2 to 10 on a single transform more than once.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • FoulSnowpaw
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    @chaserstorm16909
    No. Werewolves don't look like that, and certainly cannot enjoy the short time it runs. Werewolves are bigger, more savage, and brute. Giving a weak excuse to hinder a possible progression is not productive.
    The Lykaios would look similar to khajiit, but are canines in that sense.

    If werewolf is a short transform, then that's a L2P issue. I say this as someone who's leveled werewolf from 2 to 10 on a single transform more than once.

    The goal here is suggesting a new race. And if they leveled their WW fast good for them; this thread is not about WW though. The point is, the werewolf does not sate the race idea, for it is inevitably a limited time. @chaserstorm16909 classifying all elven folk as simply elf entirely won't work as much as classifying a canine race with a werewolf.
  • starkerealm
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    Zarkeson wrote: »
    Zarkeson wrote: »
    @chaserstorm16909
    No. Werewolves don't look like that, and certainly cannot enjoy the short time it runs. Werewolves are bigger, more savage, and brute. Giving a weak excuse to hinder a possible progression is not productive.
    The Lykaios would look similar to khajiit, but are canines in that sense.

    If werewolf is a short transform, then that's a L2P issue. I say this as someone who's leveled werewolf from 2 to 10 on a single transform more than once.

    The goal here is suggesting a new race. And if they leveled their WW fast good for them; this thread is not about WW though. The point is, the werewolf does not sate the race idea, for it is inevitably a limited time. @chaserstorm16909 classifying all elven folk as simply elf entirely won't work as much as classifying a canine race with a werewolf.

    In case you forgot, you were the one complaining about the duration of the werewolf transform. Saying it was too short. Which, as I said, is a learn-to-play issue.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
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