Should CP be removed from PvP?

kongkim

Keep CP in PvP

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I voted for "Keep CP in PVP" but i believe my choice requires further explanation.

CP are given to player so they can be used. Its only way of character progression after reaching CP160 and disabling it is a lika a step back two years to past.

What should be done is complete strong separation of all PVP aspects from PVE which in result will allow developers to balance all skills and passives and abilities separately to PVP and PVE part of game

This way all the changes done for sake of PVP wont affect PVE at all and other way around, issues caused by PVE nature of game wont backfire at PVP playerbase.

This is part of my post that explains my reasoning behind this request:

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.

What im refering to?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

(...) Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game. (...)

These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.

Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".

How long it's been that developers were trying to achieve the PVE+PVP balance? One year, two years and counting - in meantime we've seen things nerfed and buffed back and forth from one patch to another - pretty much time wasted on running circles.

(an example of such change is how in Dark Brotherhood constitution passive was buffed to compensate PVE tanks for loss of bracing passive yet in Morrowind patch notes that change is basically being reverted because of complaints from PVP playerbase).

If that time, these months and years would have been spent by developers on overhauling PVP system in a way where it could be balanced 100% separately from PVE environment, we would be enjoying already (or very soon) a much better balance in completely separated fields of PVP and PVE where one system wont be hurting other players:

- no more PVP players complaining that power creep in PVE is runing their builds and abilities and other way around, no PVE players complaining that PVP complaints are inducing nerfs in abilities behaving perfectly fine in PVE

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4055913

No thx its the same game. I play both and i like my build to work the same.

Publius_Scipio

You didn't provide a 3rd option.

Just give players the option to choose CP campaign or no CP campaign (already implemented) and the option to queue for CP or no CP battlegrounds. Also an option to begin a CP enabled or no CP enabled duel.

That being said, CP should be balanced in the game no matter what.

Zvorgin

Keep CP in PvP

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

You didn't provide a 3rd option.

Just give players the option to choose CP campaign or no CP campaign (already implemented) and the option to queue for CP or no CP battlegrounds. Also an option to begin a CP enabled or no CP enabled duel.

That being said, CP should be balanced in the game no matter what.

Agreed, CP is imbalanced throughout the game as it current stands and fixing sustain is the first step toward fixing PvP and PvE balance.

flguy147ub17_ESO

One thing that bothers me is with No CP being in Battlegrounds, i feel like the grind just got way worse. Now you have to grind PVE, CP PVP gear and no CP BG gear. To me this just isnt feasible for me. And there is way more to making a build than just throwing on spell cost reduction glyph switching from CP PVP to no CP PVP. For this reason i may switch to Azura even on console where it is kinda dead.

ljb2k5_ESO

Remove CP from PvP

I voted yes because of the following reasons;

1. Primarily, it already is removed. Several campaigns are no CP, and the upcoming battlegrounds will be no CP by default.
2. Just removing CP I feel would have been enough to answer concerns about sustain and the gap between new and old players in PVP, as opposed to the host of nerfs to class abilities that are on the PTS.
3. I think CP should only be a thing in PVE, its more or less non-competitive, in the sense that the AI isn't gonna come to the forums and cry that you kicked its ass because of your 600+ CP, unlike PVP.

jlboozer

Remove CP from PvP

ljb2k5_ESO wrote: »

I voted yes because of the following reasons;

1. Primarily, it already is removed. Several campaigns are no CP, and the upcoming battlegrounds will be no CP by default.
2. Just removing CP I feel would have been enough to answer concerns about sustain and the gap between new and old players in PVP, as opposed to the host of nerfs to class abilities that are on the PTS.
3. I think CP should only be a thing in PVE, its more or less non-competitive, in the sense that the AI isn't gonna come to the forums and cry that you kicked its ass because of your 600+ CP, unlike PVP.

I agree totally!

Zvorgin

Keep CP in PvP

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

One thing that bothers me is with No CP being in Battlegrounds, i feel like the grind just got way worse. Now you have to grind PVE, CP PVP gear and no CP BG gear. To me this just isnt feasible for me. And there is way more to making a build than just throwing on spell cost reduction glyph switching from CP PVP to no CP PVP. For this reason i may switch to Azura even on console where it is kinda dead.

I'm hoping BG's clear out Cyrodiil a bit but not too much. PS4 Scourge could be awesome.

Group finder is so broken on console I think a lot of people will get frustrated trying to get into battlegrounds. If it can't get 4 people in a group dungeon, how's it going to sync up 12 in battlegrounds?

Battlegrounds don't seem all that appealing to me, I like the strategic aspects of open world.

Zvorgin

Keep CP in PvP

ljb2k5_ESO wrote: »

I voted yes because of the following reasons;

1. Primarily, it already is removed. Several campaigns are no CP, and the upcoming battlegrounds will be no CP by default.
2. Just removing CP I feel would have been enough to answer concerns about sustain and the gap between new and old players in PVP, as opposed to the host of nerfs to class abilities that are on the PTS.
3. I think CP should only be a thing in PVE, its more or less non-competitive, in the sense that the AI isn't gonna come to the forums and cry that you kicked its ass because of your 600+ CP, unlike PVP.

PvE is more broken that PvP with CP, overland content is a complete joke they are so easy as are a lot of vet group dungeons. CP should be in the whole game or they should be removed from the whole game.

theher0not

Keep CP in PvP

There is a no CP campain. If you don't want it play there. If you want them play on the CP campain.

But the 2 campains should be balanced separatley from eachother.

Megabear

Keep CP in PvP

As a new player I think it should be in the game, but not to an extent that it gives too much advantage over less CP players.

jlboozer

Remove CP from PvP

Megabear wrote: »

As a new player I think it should be in the game, but not to an extent that it gives too much advantage over less CP players.

It would be more beneficial to lower level players to remove CP from PvP tbh...

Eshelmen

Keep CP in PvP

jlboozer wrote: »

Eshelmen wrote: »

Option 3, get good.

I'm already good, 1v1 me on ps4 NA if you want to find out. Not about being good, it's about PvP balance effecting PvE too much!

@jlboozer message me your ps4 handle. We'll duel tonight.

LegacyDM

Remove CP from PvP

It's to hard for zos to balance around 3 archetypes. Cp pvp, cp pve, and no cp pvp. While zos is constantly fumbling wasting resources and pissing off the community at the same time on how they should balance the game, they are wasting valuable time and resources that could be invested in making the game better.

Cut out cp pvp and leave cps for pve. Pvpers want progression? Do it through pvp only sets that only work on other players. Make the best sets obtainable through a legit ranking system or implement a pvp only crafting line. Or make rewards of the worthy and telvar stones actually worth something. Stop designing the game around cps and design it around mechanics and player driven content.

There more creative ways to give pvpers the perception of progression while maintaining a state of balance. Cps are cancerous and lead to continuous nerfs. Power creep is real. Cps in pvp are not a win win.

LegacyDM

Remove CP from PvP

theher0not wrote: »

There is a no CP campain. If you don't want it play there. If you want them play on the CP campain.

But the 2 campains should be balanced separatley from eachother.

Problem with this logic is that when zos nerfs or balances around cp pvp it has a drastic effect on non cp pvp and pve. Screwing pvers and non cp pvpers. Zos spends to much time and resources trying to balance too much. They end up just alienating everyone rather than fixing their game.

Zvorgin

Keep CP in PvP

LegacyDM wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

There is a no CP campain. If you don't want it play there. If you want them play on the CP campain.

But the 2 campains should be balanced separatley from eachother.

Problem with this logic is that when zos nerfs or balances around cp pvp it has a drastic effect on non cp pvp and pve. Screwing pvers and non cp pvpers. Zos spends to much time and resources trying to balance too much. They end up just alienating everyone rather than fixing their game.

They are nerfing CP for PvE as well, to think they are nerfing because of PvP only is to have your head in the sand. PvE is as broken as anything due to unlimited sustain with max damage builds.

jlboozer

Remove CP from PvP

LegacyDM wrote: »

It's to hard for zos to balance around 3 archetypes. Cp pvp, cp pve, and no cp pvp. While zos is constantly fumbling wasting resources and pissing off the community at the same time on how they should balance the game, they are wasting valuable time and resources that could be invested in making the game better.

Cut out cp pvp and leave cps for pve. Pvpers want progression? Do it through pvp only sets that only work on other players. Make the best sets obtainable through a legit ranking system or implement a pvp only crafting line. Or make rewards of the worthy and telvar stones actually worth something. Stop designing the game around cps and design it around mechanics and player driven content.

There more creative ways to give pvpers the perception of progression while maintaining a state of balance. Cps are cancerous and lead to continuous nerfs. Power creep is real. Cps in pvp are not a win win.

I wish everyone understood this, it's why we're all getting nerfed now...

Shadow_Viper_vX

Things are fine as is

CP campaigns for those that like CP

Non-CP campaigns for those that do not want CP

This is a non-issue.

Pointless Thread is Pointless

LegacyDM

Remove CP from PvP

Zvorgin wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

There is a no CP campain. If you don't want it play there. If you want them play on the CP campain.

But the 2 campains should be balanced separatley from eachother.

Problem with this logic is that when zos nerfs or balances around cp pvp it has a drastic effect on non cp pvp and pve. Screwing pvers and non cp pvpers. Zos spends to much time and resources trying to balance too much. They end up just alienating everyone rather than fixing their game.

They are nerfing CP for PvE as well, to think they are nerfing because of PvP only is to have your head in the sand. PvE is as broken as anything due to unlimited sustain with max damage builds.

That's bs. Why is only 1% only able to complete maelstrom, trials, and Vdsa? Why can only less than half the people complete shadows, ic prison, and white tower? Have you actually pugged regular dungeons? 90% of the groups I Pug with would not even come close to completion if I didn't carry them through it. And I'm not even talking about reading the scrolls at the end. Just normal vet mode. Finally, what about overland world bosses? Most normal players are spamming chat looking for groups to help. So tell me? How is the pve content too easy?

You know what their problem is? Overland content and dolmens are too easy. So their solution is to nerf cps all around?! That's an issue with battle leveling and cps layered on. There are alternatives. Than draconian methods.

idk

Keep CP in PvP

Everyone has a choice as it is to run CP or not. It is built into the campaigns. I think that is best. No reason to force the issue one way or the other. Does not make sense to create a poll on it.

I seriously doubt the devs made these extensive changes that are on PTS due to PvP. In fact, I think the new BGs are non CP which will be the most popular PvP action once this drops so again, does not make sense the changes are for PvP and the polls in the forums are entertainment value at best. Have no meaning beyond that.

Zvorgin

Keep CP in PvP

LegacyDM wrote: »

Zvorgin wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

There is a no CP campain. If you don't want it play there. If you want them play on the CP campain.

But the 2 campains should be balanced separatley from eachother.

Problem with this logic is that when zos nerfs or balances around cp pvp it has a drastic effect on non cp pvp and pve. Screwing pvers and non cp pvpers. Zos spends to much time and resources trying to balance too much. They end up just alienating everyone rather than fixing their game.

They are nerfing CP for PvE as well, to think they are nerfing because of PvP only is to have your head in the sand. PvE is as broken as anything due to unlimited sustain with max damage builds.

That's bs. Why is only 1% only able to complete maelstrom, trials, and Vdsa? Why can only less than half the people complete shadows, ic prison, and white tower? Have you actually pugged regular dungeons? 90% of the groups I Pug with would not even come close to completion if I didn't carry them through it. And I'm not even talking about reading the scrolls at the end. Just normal vet mode. Finally, what about overland world bosses? Most normal players are spamming chat looking for groups to help. So tell me? How is the pve content too easy?

You know what their problem is? Overland content and dolmens are too easy. So their solution is to nerf cps all around?! That's an issue with battle leveling and cps layered on. There are alternatives. Than draconian methods.

The dungeons you mention have nothing to do with CP, vMA is full of cheap mechanics and shortcuts by Zos to make it arbitrarily difficult. I did VMA for two days, got to round 7 and didn't go back. It wasn't fun at all. I also don't pug dungeons because 1) console players don't use mics generally, 2) I get bugged group finder kicking me out of dungeons and 3) I have a group I run with if I am because of 1 and 2 above.

CP sustain needs to be adjusted, but there are plenty of mechanics in the game that are just too rng related. Portals in ICP for instance, that's not CP related, it's just luck of the draw where the random portals float around.

Overland world bosses are easily solo'd if you have a half way decent understanding of game mechanics and decent purple gear sets.

OutLaw_Nynx

Remove CP from PvP

Sure

mtwiggz

Keep CP in PvP

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

It seems to have helped the lag in Cyrodil to a point.

That being said the nerfs in PvE still need to happen. Seeing videos of people soloing Trial bosses is just stupid. Yes it's fun to watch, and bragging points if you can do it, but it just shouldn't be possible.

Latency and performance were both still serious issues during the no CP test week. Disconnects were very abundant as well.

ZoS has not released any official statistics on that week, although many of us have asked for them. From my experience, and the experiences of my friends, during that week nothing was any better.

The current no CP campaigns have much less issue with latency and performance due to the lack of large scale battles, not due to no CP. You can experience this same gameplay on other campaigns that have CP, aside from whichever is the main campaign on your megaserver.

mrdankles

No. I think they should rework the catch up system so everyone can hit max cp easier and not complain about it.

jlboozer

Remove CP from PvP

mrdankles wrote: »

No. I think they should rework the catch up system so everyone can hit max cp easier and not complain about it.

It's more of a PvP balance is affecting PvE players more than PvP players...in a bad way, and it sucks. No offense to PvP players, they should either remove cp from PvP or balance each separate.

BenLocoDete

Remove CP from PvP

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone has a choice as it is to run CP or not. It is built into the campaigns. I think that is best. No reason to force the issue one way or the other. Does not make sense to create a poll on it.

I seriously doubt the devs made these extensive changes that are on PTS due to PvP. In fact, I think the new BGs are non CP which will be the most popular PvP action once this drops so again, does not make sense the changes are for PvP and the polls in the forums are entertainment value at best. Have no meaning beyond that.

While I disagree with keeping the CPs, I understand that after all these years and resources being dragged(at least this is what we would expect still, TBH they seem pretty chill about it) just outright remove CP would be a big waste and very unlikely to happen.

But to have the same power balance to two completely different scenarios and expect the same results is naive to say the least. I'm all for more balance and less power creep but recusing from more customization is a big drawback.

BenLocoDete

Remove CP from PvP

mtwiggz wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

It seems to have helped the lag in Cyrodil to a point.

That being said the nerfs in PvE still need to happen. Seeing videos of people soloing Trial bosses is just stupid. Yes it's fun to watch, and bragging points if you can do it, but it just shouldn't be possible.

Latency and performance were both still serious issues during the no CP test week. Disconnects were very abundant as well.

ZoS has not released any official statistics on that week, although many of us have asked for them. From my experience, and the experiences of my friends, during that week nothing was any better.

The current no CP campaigns have much less issue with latency and performance due to the lack of large scale battles, not due to no CP. You can experience this same gameplay on other campaigns that have CP, aside from whichever is the main campaign on your megaserver.

So what are you implying, that the lag will migrate to non-CP campaigns as well or at least decrease in one and increase in the other, because if so I'd still think this is worth the effort. There are undoubtedly players fond to Max effectiveness and have time to build up their characters, this is unquestionable but how much of the player base they represent?

Since [Z]has detailed statistics on these numbers and runs a millionaire product I'd weight the best choice on splitting PVP-PVE balance but IMHO the time and effort needed to completely revamp both systems would point to nothing big happening, and buffs/nerfs/new meta every patch just like every other MMO.

jpeg

Keep CP in PvP

azuras star???