Magicka Nightblade

stealthyevil

In this thread I am going to be as objective as possible, due to the fact that my main is a Magic NB.

As it stands in the current patch (Homestead), Magic NB is in a weak spot for PvP and in PvE. For reference, I am going to be speaking from a PvP perspective because that’s what I spend most of my time doing.

The one problem that Magic NB has, in particular a destro/resto NB, is that every damage-dealing ability they use can be dodged, reflected and blocked, with the exception being Soul Tether at 150 Ultimate cost. Now, with that being said I do understand that fear (Mass Hysteria) is one of the most powerful AoE CCs in the game and a skilled NB can use that to their advantage, however, I am speaking from a broad perspective.

Lets do a simple comparison here with Magic Morphs to some class skills

Nightblade

• Fear - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Soul Tether - Unblockable/Undodgable (150 Ultimate)

Templar

• Purifying Light (+Morphs) - Unblockable/Stackable
• Puncturing Sweeps - Undodgeable
• Eclipse - Unbreakable (Now reflects everything that the victim casts [PTS 3.0] )

Sorcerer

• Daedric Curse - Undodgeable/ Unreflectable/ Stackable
• Encase - Unblockable
• Defensive Rune - An inevitable CC if you attack the Sorcerer
• Mines - Inevitable CC if you walk through them, but that is your fault if you do.
• Streak - Undodgeable, Unblockable (Bugged, Please fix streak)

Dragonknight

• Talons - Inevitable CC unless you have 2 sec immunity from new dodge passive [PTS 3.0]
• Petrify - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Dragon Leap - Undodgeable/unreflectable

Now, forgive me if I missed a certain ability or described it incorrectly, but as you can see every other class but a Magic NB has an unblockbale/undodgeable/unreflectable DAMAGE DEALING class skill that is not an ultimate.

What this leads to in a PvP scenario is Magic NB having to wear heavy armor to stay alive outnumbered. Heavy armor is necessary because they cannot shield stack as effectively as a sorcerer while wearing light armor in order to mitigate incoming unblockable/unrefectable damage. This was OKAY, because with siphoning attacks and the constitution passive the resource return was enough to keep yourself alive in certain situations and keep decent pressure on your opponents if you were fighting outnumbered.

With those two being nerfed dramatically, and upcoming CP changes Magic NB sustain has gone down the drain. Siphoning attacks was essential in restoring stamina to keep blocking/dodging incoming attacks, now it does not even restore stamina, and the return you get comparative to the cost is atrocious.

As it stands melee magic NB, is a gimped stamina nightblade with less damage, and destro/resto is a gimped sorcerer with significantly less damage. Now that does not mean magic NB is dead, it just means that you will have to time your burst with fear/tether to ensure everything hits, instead of casting abilities for undodgable damage.

Suggestions :

• I think Siphoning attacks should give you minor magic steal + stamina return, and Leeching Strikes should do Minor Lifesteal + Stamina Return as both are vital for survivability in PvP and PvE. What this also does, is forces you to play aggressive and keep pressure on your opponents in order to sustain yourself, which I believe is what a NB should be good at. This will allow similar sustain to live, as well as bringing back niche sap tank builds.
• Magic NB needs one class skill that is not an ultimate to be undodgeable in order to keep it competitive with the damage output Battlegrounds/Cyrodiil. If that is too much to ask for, then please for the love of god, Soul Harvest is an ultimate ability, please make that at least undodgable.
• Assassin’s Will needs to be a bit more consistent. I will make another post on this entirely.

Please leave feedback, weather negative or positive, it is much appreciated. These skills are still subject to change with future PTS notes so lets not get too hyped and be reasonable.

DisgracefulMind

When I played a Magicka NB way back, what was really nice was the undodgeable concealed weapon. It really brought such an aggressive playstyle to the table for a magblade. I'm not sure making the skill undodgeable again is the answer, but I can really say what deterred me from playing magblade is really the playstyles you're forced into. Either you're a bomber, or you're a gimped sorc. And with the reflect changes to Crushing Shock, you're even more of a ghetto sorc because your spammable is reflectable while the spammable most sorcs choose is not. Really is quite harsh how ZoS has chosen to treat Nightblades.

Perhaps making soul harvest undodgeable would be a great buff, but I'm not sure that would be the best idea for incap. Man, I honestly don't know how to help the nightblade, particularly Magicka. ZoS has really ignored the class for a long time /:

CavalryPK

stealthyevil wrote: »

In this thread I am going to be as objective as possible, due to the fact that my main is a Magic NB.

As it stands in the current patch (Homestead), Magic NB is in a weak spot for PvP and in PvE. For reference, I am going to be speaking from a PvP perspective because that’s what I spend most of my time doing.

The one problem that Magic NB has, in particular a destro/resto NB, is that every damage-dealing class they use can be dodged, reflected and blocked, with the exception being Soul Tether at 150 Ultimate cost. Now, with that being said I do understand that fear (Mass Hysteria) is one of the most powerful AoE CCs in the game and a skilled NB can use that to their advantage, however, I am speaking from a broad perspective.

Lets do a simple comparison here with Magic Morphs to some class skills

Nightblade

• Fear - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Soul Tether - Unblockable/Undodgable (150 Ultimate)

Templar

• Purifying Light (+Morphs) - Unblockable/Stackable
• Puncturing Sweeps - Undodgeable
• Eclipse - Unbreakable (Now reflects everything that the victim casts [PTS 3.0] )

Sorcerer

• Daedric Curse - Undodgeable/ Unreflectable/ Stackable
• Encase - Unblockable
• Defensive Rune - An inevitable CC if you attack the Sorcerer
• Mines - Inevitable CC if you walk through them, but that is your fault if you do.
• Streak - Undodgeable, Unblockable (Bugged, Please fix streak)

Dragonknight

• Talons - Inevitable CC unless you have 2 sec immunity from new dodge passive [PTS 3.0]
• Petrify - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Dragon Leap - Undodgeable/unreflectable

Now, forgive me if I missed a certain ability or described it incorrectly, but as you can see every other class but a Magic NB has an unblockbale/undodgeable/unreflectable DAMAGE DEALING class skill that is not an ultimate.

What this leads to in a PvP scenario is Magic NB having to wear heavy armor to stay alive outnumbered. Heavy armor is necessary because they cannot shield stack as effectively as a sorcerer while wearing light armor in order to mitigate incoming unblockable/unrefectable damage. This was OKAY, because with siphoning attacks and the constitution passive the resource return was enough to keep yourself alive in certain situations and keep decent pressure on your opponents if you were fighting outnumbered.

With those two being nerfed dramatically, and upcoming CP changes Magic NB sustain has gone down the drain. Siphoning attacks was essential in restoring stamina to keep blocking/dodging incoming attacks, now it does not even restore stamina, and the return you get comparative to the cost is atrocious.

As it stands melee magic NB, is a gimped stamina nightblade with less damage, and destro/resto is a gimped sorcerer with significantly less damage. Now that does not mean magic NB is dead, it just means that you will have to time your burst with fear/tether to ensure everything hits, instead of casting abilities for undodgable damage.

Suggestions :

• I think Siphoning attacks should give you minor magic steal + stamina return, and Leeching Strikes should do Minor Lifesteal + Stamina Return as both are vital for survivability in PvP and PvE. What this also does, is forces you to play aggressive and keep pressure on your opponents in order to sustain yourself, which I believe is what a NB should be good at. This will allow similar sustain to live, as well as bringing back niche sap tank builds.
• Magic NB needs one class skill that is not an ultimate to be undodgeable in order to keep it competitive with the damage output Battlegrounds/Cyrodiil. If that is too much to ask for, then please for the love of god, Soul Harvest is an ultimate ability, please make that at least undodgable.
• Assassin’s Will needs to be a bit more consistent. I will make another post on this entirely.

Please leave feedback, weather negative or positive, it is much appreciated. These skills are still subject to change with future PTS notes so lets not get too hyped and be reasonable.

IF SS stays the same with PTS 3, I am taking it out from my back bar and replacing it with something else. my new mana regen is going to be Lich. no other way around it.

QuebraRegra

why does SOUL TETHER seem to "miss" more than it hits?

If SORC had an invisibility skill, I'd never play NB again. Not that cloak is actually terribly useful, but good for RP and sneaking up and burning the siege of the unaware.

stealthyevil

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When I played a Magicka NB way back, what was really nice was the undodgeable concealed weapon. It really brought such an aggressive playstyle to the table for a magblade. I'm not sure making the skill undodgeable again is the answer, but I can really say what deterred me from playing magblade is really the playstyles you're forced into. Either you're a bomber, or you're a gimped sorc. And with the reflect changes to Crushing Shock, you're even more of a ghetto sorc because your spammable is reflectable while the spammable most sorcs choose is not. Really is quite harsh how ZoS has chosen to treat Nightblades.

Perhaps making soul harvest undodgeable would be a great buff, but I'm not sure that would be the best idea for incap. Man, I honestly don't know how to help the nightblade, particularly Magicka. ZoS has really ignored the class for a long time /:

Undodgeable concealed was nice, however I don't think that might be a good fix. To be honest, I have no idea what might be a good fix The class just needs more consistent damage output, the damage is there, it just doesn't connect half the time.

CavalryPK wrote: »

IF SS stays the same with PTS 3, I am taking it out from my back bar and replacing it with something else. my new mana regen is going to be Lich. no other way around it.

The meta for open world will most likely be Lich + War Maiden which might be what Sorc will run as well...and they can deal damage and survive better. There is literally no reason to gimp yourself with a Magicka NB unless you truly just love playing the class.

QuebraRegra wrote: »

why does SOUL TETHER seem to "miss" more than it hits?

If SORC had an invisibility skill, I'd never play NB again. Not that cloak is actually terribly useful, but good for RP and sneaking up and burning the siege of the unaware.

How you feel about Soul Tether, is the exact way I feel about Soul Harvest. Unless I fear, then Soul Harvest, it misses at least 99.9% of the time, because major evasion.

DisgracefulMind

stealthyevil wrote: »

Undodgeable concealed was nice, however I don't think that might be a good fix. To be honest, I have no idea what might be a good fix The class just needs more consistent damage output, the damage is there, it just doesn't connect half the time.

Isn't it sad that no one knows how to fix something and ZoS just keeps hammering it in? /:

NightbladeMechanics

We have two unblockable, undodgeable ccs, but fear is melee and agony ends with any incoming damage.

Soul Harvest might not be too op if it were undodgeable, but incap cannot take the buff too. ZOS has a history of nerfing soul harvest along with incap when incap is op, so don't hold your breath for single-morph buffs. My main concern here is what about nightblade who don't use soul harvest? Tweaking an ult won't solve the problem without limiting play styles, and soul harvest isn't even the ideal ult for destro mageblade in open world. You'd just open the class up to other problems. I can elaborate on that if I need to..

What if Impale were undodgeable and unreflectable?

As it is, destro mageblade has no problem delivering damage on target. To suggest otherwise is false. What mageblade does struggle with more than other classes is executing panicking enemies. We cc, combo them to 25% health, and they break free and initiate a roll within the global cooldown before Impale connects. A few more rolls with our damage unable to connect, and they heal up to full, putting us back to square one. One cast of wings or the Warden reflect gives a dk or Warden 100% immunity to being executed as well, as impale is blocked by reflects even though the damage is not returned to the nightblade.

In short, mageblade's main offensive weakness when compared to sorc is that we cannot layer burst attacks into one global cooldown, opening our finishers up to rolls and reflects. I have no problem with that or with our attacks being dodgeable and reflectable -- I like things to have counterplay -- but if ZOS is going to be giving everyone undodgeable unreflectable stuff......and then making this eclipse change......mageblade could perhaps use something to keep up with the times.

It still irks me that I'm taking a thread asking for more undodgeable and unreflectable damage seriously.. I don't like this direction of the game, but if mageblade is going to be competitive as anything other than a potato bomber, you're right, something should be done.

stealthyevil

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

We have two unblockable, undodgeable ccs, but fear is melee and agony ends with any incoming damage.

Soul Harvest might not be too op if it were undodgeable, but incap cannot take the buff too. ZOS has a history of nerfing soul harvest along with incap when incap is op, so don't hold your breath for single-morph buffs. My main concern here is what about nightblade who don't use soul harvest? Tweaking an ult won't solve the problem without limiting play styles, and soul harvest isn't even the ideal ult for destro mageblade in open world. You'd just open the class up to other problems. I can elaborate on that if I need to..

What if Impale were undodgeable and unreflectable? As it is, destro mageblade has no problem delivering damage on target. To suggest otherwise is false. What mageblade does struggle with more than other classes is executing panicking enemies. We cc, combo them to 25% health, and they break free and initiate a roll within the global cooldown before Impale connects. A few more rolls with our damage unable to connect, and they heal up to full, putting us back to square one. One cast of wings or the Warden reflect gives a dk or Warden 100% immunity to being executed as well, as impale is blocked by reflects even though the damage is not returned to the nightblade.

In short, mageblade's main offensive weakness when compared to sorc is that we cannot layer burst attacks into one global cooldown, opening our finishers up to rolls and reflects. I have no problem with that or with our attacks being dodgeable and reflectable -- I like things to have counterplay -- but if ZOS is going to be giving everyone undodgeable unreflectable stuff......and then making this eclipse change......mageblade could perhaps use something to keep up with the times.

It still irks me that I'm taking a thread asking for more undodgeable I reflectable damage seriously.. I don't like this direction of the game, but if mageblade is going to be competitive as anything other than a potato bomber, you're right, something should be done.

I was trying to keep everything limited to class available skills, thats why I didn't introduce any other weapon/guild ultimates. As we both know, dealing damage on a Magicka NB isn't the problem, it's that every other class is better at delivering their damage through unblockable/undodgeable skills. I hate to be the one making this thread, but I love the magic NB playstyle too much to see it get stripped. The eclipse change did it for me. I want their to be more counter-play as well but it seems ZOS is heading in the direction of being more "Noob" friendly mechanics. If Impale was undodgeable and unreflectable, as you suggested, I would be happy with just that one simple change.

SPE825

Man, and I was just thinking about getting back in my Nightblade as it was my main. I was thinking about going the bomber route at least. I suppose that the old clever alchemist/VD will still work, but maybe forget having any regen to escape I guess, right?

I've always like the playstyle at least.

arkansas_ESO

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

We have two unblockable, undodgeable ccs, but fear is melee and agony ends with any incoming damage.

Soul Harvest might not be too op if it were undodgeable, but incap cannot take the buff too. ZOS has a history of nerfing soul harvest along with incap when incap is op, so don't hold your breath for single-morph buffs. My main concern here is what about nightblade who don't use soul harvest? Tweaking an ult won't solve the problem without limiting play styles, and soul harvest isn't even the ideal ult for destro mageblade in open world. You'd just open the class up to other problems. I can elaborate on that if I need to..

What if Impale were undodgeable and unreflectable?

As it is, destro mageblade has no problem delivering damage on target. To suggest otherwise is false. What mageblade does struggle with more than other classes is executing panicking enemies. We cc, combo them to 25% health, and they break free and initiate a roll within the global cooldown before Impale connects. A few more rolls with our damage unable to connect, and they heal up to full, putting us back to square one. One cast of wings or the Warden reflect gives a dk or Warden 100% immunity to being executed as well, as impale is blocked by reflects even though the damage is not returned to the nightblade.

In short, mageblade's main offensive weakness when compared to sorc is that we cannot layer burst attacks into one global cooldown, opening our finishers up to rolls and reflects. I have no problem with that or with our attacks being dodgeable and reflectable -- I like things to have counterplay -- but if ZOS is going to be giving everyone undodgeable unreflectable stuff......and then making this eclipse change......mageblade could perhaps use something to keep up with the times.

It still irks me that I'm taking a thread asking for more undodgeable and unreflectable damage seriously.. I don't like this direction of the game, but if mageblade is going to be competitive as anything other than a potato bomber, you're right, something should be done.

This is a great suggestion. Impale has the second lowest execute threshold next to Sorc's Endless Fury, yet it's also the only execute that can be reflected, absorbed, dodged, and blocked, and doesn't automatically proc when the target is at low health (which means it's harder to combo with.)


I feel like Concealed Weapon (not necessarily Surprise Attack) should also be made undodgeable, if only to make that skill actually worth slotting again.

NightbladeMechanics

SPE825 wrote: »

Man, and I was just thinking about getting back in my Nightblade as it was my main. I was thinking about going the bomber route at least. I suppose that the old clever alchemist/VD will still work, but maybe forget having any regen to escape I guess, right?

I've always like the playstyle at least.

None of the PTS changes affect bombing negatively. Bombing will only be stronger next patch regardless of the sustain changes because people are more vulnerable in medium and light armor, just like it's stronger in no-CP than CP play on live.

Besides, zero regen is how bombers should be. That's how they were before the CP cap got raised so high and consumables like witchmother's and ghastly eye bowl were added, and bombing has always been strong... You have a massive magicka pool to draw from and very few abilities you need to cast in a bomb. If you need regen as a bomber or ganker, you're doing it wrong.

Bombing and ganking are barely PvP as is. Let's not act like bombers and gankers need help next patch. lol