NOT WORRIED (lack of resource management)

JonnytheKing

Is just me or is every one worrying about the lack of resource management, has it been over exaggerated a bit? I'm seeing a lot of ways of getting resources back and it's just going to take a bit more skill. Not saying it hasn't been nerfed but I'm not concerned about it to the point other people are. Just wondering if i missed something ?

sadownik

@JonnytheKing "a bit more skill" means incorporating much more of heavy attacks in your combat, which in turn makes combat very visibly longer.

I dont know about you, but its not fun for me.

Turelus

I'm still testing, I think much of the issues have be over dramatised, but there are issues which need (and should) be discussed.

The problem is sorting the good arguments and feedback from the QQ hyperbole.

JonnytheKing

@Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

KCLucky

JonnytheKing wrote: »

@Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Turelus

KCLucky wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Remember that's taking into account everyone who's ever downloaded the game, the achievements on consoles are not a great gauge for numbers. Also many players just don't care enough to complete it as they're more interested in story/questing than VMA.

I do agree with you that Veteran Trials are going to be the hard hit area, however I want to hear from the people actually testing that on PTS about what their experiences are and how they've found it or adjusted to it.
This is one of the reasons I have been following Alcast's updates more closely and whilst he's said it's dumb he's not been a massive drama llama about it (yet).

jakeedmundson

Turelus wrote: »

KCLucky wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Remember that's taking into account everyone who's ever downloaded the game, the achievements on consoles are not a great gauge for numbers. Also many players just don't care enough to complete it as they're more interested in story/questing than VMA.

I do agree with you that Veteran Trials are going to be the hard hit area, however I want to hear from the people actually testing that on PTS about what their experiences are and how they've found it or adjusted to it.
This is one of the reasons I have been following Alcast's updates more closely and whilst he's said it's dumb he's not been a massive drama llama about it (yet).

I like how people (and zos) use that number to show how popular the game is...
"ESO has sold 8 million copies etc. etc....."

But when it comes to the other side of it... showing how few people actually run certain content... it isn't a reliable number?

MehrunesFlagon

vMA has a quest. Sorry could not resist.

aLi3nZ

I just changed my build to include shadowfen + 126 magika recovery and chokethorn + 126 magika recovery.
I am also using sharpened vma lightning staff which is good for heavy attacks if needed which it is hardly needed at all with this build. Light attacks seem to be enough for sustaining in most cases.

Max magika is 47k
Magika recovery is 2177

100 points in siphoner means reduced stam and magika recovery by 15% for anyone fighting me which is pretty massive and harsh. Add resource poison on top of that and that is 75% reduced stam and magika recovery. Good luck sustaining that no matter what build you are running. TBH I wish this resource poison and siphoner cp skill did not exist. It doesn't make for more fun pvp play. It's just cheap.

DarkestMagick

Ok, so we have the nerfs to sustain across the board. We also have the removal of cost reduction CP for our allocations (roughly 12-16% for most CP setups). No biggie in terms of non-CP play and CP enabled PVP will still have very strong sustain in proper builds. But throw in the additional (currently) 30% cost increase poisons to non CP PvP and you have something that should never exist in any game. I consider myself to be a strong player with every difficult to obtain title in the game, and I'm not hindered by them too too much on live non CP, but in the BG's I have played (about 30 so far), the cost increase drains my 42k magicka pool insanely fast, and my 34k stam pool (all my stam characters) just as fast if not faster. Catering to the playstyle of proc chances enabling less skilled players to win a fight against more skilled players here and there doesn't promote a heathly learning curve or the ability to actually become better at the game's designed combat mechanics. They don't have a place in the game and wish zos would hear others with same oppinion and take them out. Damage poisons, don't mind those one bit, but cost increase is just an obsurd "fix" to problems that don't stem from strictly resource management. I'd enjoy the pvp a lot more with them gone, as I am sure many other would as well (mainly refering to non CP).

STEVIL

Turelus wrote: »

KCLucky wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Remember that's taking into account everyone who's ever downloaded the game, the achievements on consoles are not a great gauge for numbers. Also many players just don't care enough to complete it as they're more interested in story/questing than VMA.

I do agree with you that Veteran Trials are going to be the hard hit area, however I want to hear from the people actually testing that on PTS about what their experiences are and how they've found it or adjusted to it.
This is one of the reasons I have been following Alcast's updates more closely and whilst he's said it's dumb he's not been a massive drama llama about it (yet).

Exactly.

I mean dont know whay percent of players even bought the dkc, then what percent of them tried vma.

One key thing about "no indication that..." is that until they see the sum total of the impacts thru playtest and get nearer the end they wont know how much and what needs tweaking for dps challenges. Ts obvuous they are deliberately lowering the maxdps all sustain levels so we just have to see what else they change to mesh with that.

Rohamad_Ali

In the end it's a preference . I only try to encourage ZoS to make things more balanced for all players . With this system , the top end players are going to separate themselves from newer players even more cause they will hold them back in dungeons and trials . In PVP it's going to be a bigger gap . But what ever , I'll be fine . You can't force people to think of others anyways .

Oreyn_Bearclaw

The problem is not about being able to compensate. Compensating sustain for your normal rotation (PVE perspective) is not really that hard. You change up some enchants, maybe run witchmothers brew, be more aggressive about orbs, etc. The problem is that what you are left with in my experience doesnt quit stack up to a much simpler heavy attack build. A build with unlimited sustain, where non of these compromises are needed.

Now, we arent live yet, and I am not stating that heavy attack builds are necessarily best in slot. But if it turns out that in fact they are, we have a problem. A really big problem. No remotely competitive raider wants to run a HA build. It's fine for trash pulls or farming VMA, but for trial fights, no thanks. It is mind-numbing, painfully boring to play, and requires almost no skill to perform.

JonnytheKing

Im coming from a pvp prospective i think it will improve game play , i thing the buffs and debuffs that can have now will extend fights and regean reductions will make i have to think about how your going to fight and bring tactics in to fights on sted on just running in and alt bombing ( will still happen but wont be as effective) i am looking ford to seeing what will happen.

zaria

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

KCLucky wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Remember that's taking into account everyone who's ever downloaded the game, the achievements on consoles are not a great gauge for numbers. Also many players just don't care enough to complete it as they're more interested in story/questing than VMA.

I do agree with you that Veteran Trials are going to be the hard hit area, however I want to hear from the people actually testing that on PTS about what their experiences are and how they've found it or adjusted to it.
This is one of the reasons I have been following Alcast's updates more closely and whilst he's said it's dumb he's not been a massive drama llama about it (yet).

I like how people (and zos) use that number to show how popular the game is...
"ESO has sold 8 million copies etc. etc....."

But when it comes to the other side of it... showing how few people actually run certain content... it isn't a reliable number?

How many has completed the various dungeons? Lets use veteran wayrest sewer 1 as example as its easy but still require an level 50 character with some interest in group pve.

jakeedmundson

zaria wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

KCLucky wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Turelus yes, you're right! Skill means, you have to pay attention to what you are doing instead of just hitting buttons and never running out of resources, there is other ways sets/skills/buffs to help other then just more heavy attacks. People just want easy street

Why so many people are concerned is stemming from Vet Trials. There hasn't been any indication that VMoL or VMA are being adjusted and it's extremely hard to do for some people right now pre-nerf(I've completed both multiple times, this isn't about me). There are 0.3% of people with the VMA completion trophy on PSN. It's not about people wanting the game to require less thought, they feel that very hard content right now will become impossible. I personally and going to work on Flawless for all the characters that I want it on before sustain gets wrecked.

Remember that's taking into account everyone who's ever downloaded the game, the achievements on consoles are not a great gauge for numbers. Also many players just don't care enough to complete it as they're more interested in story/questing than VMA.

I do agree with you that Veteran Trials are going to be the hard hit area, however I want to hear from the people actually testing that on PTS about what their experiences are and how they've found it or adjusted to it.
This is one of the reasons I have been following Alcast's updates more closely and whilst he's said it's dumb he's not been a massive drama llama about it (yet).

I like how people (and zos) use that number to show how popular the game is...
"ESO has sold 8 million copies etc. etc....."

But when it comes to the other side of it... showing how few people actually run certain content... it isn't a reliable number?

How many has completed the various dungeons? Lets use veteran wayrest sewer 1 as example as its easy but still require an level 50 character with some interest in group pve.

That's a good idea to compare... i can't check now but someone else can if they are at home! I'm interested in seeing this number compared to vma.


EDIT: I lied... i was able to look it up on the psn app.

0.3% have completed veteran maelstrom arena
1.2% have completed normal MA

To have some comparison basis here...
12.4% of psn players have the "level 50 hero" achievement.
12.1% have the "spend your first champion point" achievement
3.5% have the "vanquisher of the covenant" achievement (kill all group dungeons bosses in DC)

I can't find the specific dungeon ones on my app... but if someone else can find one of the non dlc vet dungeon achievements that would be great.

Either way... you can still see quite a bit of difference in basic completion of the game to how many of us actually play the most difficult end game content.

0.3% for vma completion compared to 12.1% of all "veteran" population. (just going by who has spent any champion points because it's the only number i can find that fits)

That's approximately 2.48% of the general vet population that has completed vma.

That number actually does make sense to me... in one of my guilds for example, we have around 100 people. I only know of a few people (including myself) that can beat vMA. Fits perfectly in that 2-3% range.

Silver_Strider

aLi3nZ wrote: »

I just changed my build to include shadowfen + 126 magika recovery and chokethorn + 126 magika recovery.
I am also using sharpened vma lightning staff which is good for heavy attacks if needed which it is hardly needed at all with this build. Light attacks seem to be enough for sustaining in most cases.

Max magika is 47k
Magika recovery is 2177

100 points in siphoner means reduced stam and magika recovery by 15% for anyone fighting me which is pretty massive and harsh. Add resource poison on top of that and that is 75% reduced stam and magika recovery. Good luck sustaining that no matter what build you are running. TBH I wish this resource poison and siphoner cp skill did not exist. It doesn't make for more fun pvp play. It's just cheap.

Poisons got nerfed

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Consumables

• All cost poisons have been reduced in effectiveness. Instead of increasing enemy resource costs by 60%, they now only increase enemy resource costs by 30%.
  Developer Comments:
  Due to the significant global rebalancing of resource recovery abilities, cost poisons have been reduced in effectiveness.

So it would be 45% resource increase at best, granted with all the other nerfs it should be about the same as it currently is.

Brrrofski

PvP it's whatever.

I have less resources, but so do you so it's ok. It does enforce zerg mentality even more, but zos have been going that way for a while now. Group up and just spam whatever skill. Get a guy to taunt everyone with that new set, get some healers, some people with destro ult, guy with poisons and 100 points in siphoner.... You're good to take down that 4 man group with your group of 18.

I really hope battlegrounds comes through and is good. Cyrodiil will be hell unless you zerg next patch.

Pve though, watch Gilliam's video. It looks ridiculous how bad it'll be.

Megabear

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Is just me or is every one worrying about the lack of resource management, has it been over exaggerated a bit? I'm seeing a lot of ways of getting resources back and it's just going to take a bit more skill. Not saying it hasn't been nerfed but I'm not concerned about it to the point other people are. Just wondering if i missed something ?

Yeah, seems too dramatized/exaggerated to me.

Tasear

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337338/guide-how-to-sustain-come-morrowind/p1

Yes

olsborg

It slows combat down to the point where it stops being fun and intense.

t3hdubzy

In pvp everyone is going to focus even more on burst and heavy attack builds, because sustaining in pvp is 10x harder because of the dodge rolls, snares, blocking, etc. Add in resource drain poisons and occasional sprint.

Heavy attacks take too long, and you need 1 heavy attack per 2 skills.

AcadianPaladin

Though I have great respect for those who play PvP and run PvE high end content and wear BiS gear, none of that is me.

My healing magplar and pet magsorc are both Bosmers and I want the flexibility to make it work. They already have to pay attention to acquiring a good magicka pool and sustain. Further, one reason I avoid high end content is to avoid both the need and the farming of BiS dungeon drop gear. I run craftedx5 and overland dropx5 and that is as 'BiS' as I'm willing to go.

I love the game and playing 'normal' PvE content. Adding more challenge to sustain pushes me toward farming special gear or abandoning my use of Bosmers only pact that dates back to 2007. In reality, I will abandon ESO before I change race or get into the hamster wheel of farming dungeons for specific gear.

I find it hard to believe that I am alone in thinking it important that the game not require cookie cutter builds or thinking like 'if you play a magicka character you must use a magicka race'.

I don't do PTS so I can only go by what I read. I confess I am a bit nervous about sustain after MW though.

Biro123

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Though I have great respect for those who play PvP and run PvE high end content and wear BiS gear, none of that is me.

My healing magplar and pet magsorc are both Bosmers and I want the flexibility to make it work. They already have to pay attention to acquiring a good magicka pool and sustain. Further, one reason I avoid high end content is to avoid both the need and the farming of BiS dungeon drop gear. I run craftedx5 and overland dropx5 and that is as 'BiS' as I'm willing to go.

I love the game and playing 'normal' PvE content. Adding more challenge to sustain pushes me toward farming special gear or abandoning my use of Bosmers only pact that dates back to 2007. In reality, I will abandon ESO before I change race or get into the hamster wheel of farming dungeons for specific gear.

I find it hard to believe that I am alone in thinking it important that the game not require cookie cutter builds or thinking like 'if you play a magicka character you must use a magicka race'.

I don't do PTS so I can only go by what I read. I confess I am a bit nervous about sustain after MW though.

Bosmer magsorc could work for normal pve stuff. Slot a bit of stam regen and use dark exchange every now and then to recover mag.

Vilelated

I never liked the current meta of light attack weaving. It was never in the spirit of elder scrolls. Heavy attack has always (in ESO) been a resource generator that was never used "due to it being a DPS loss."
This change has been needed for some time. In pve only tanks block, in PvP everyone holds block. Its lame. I am excited for the change and how it will shake up the current meta.