Restores Based on Level: Considering Numbers

MrGorv

As we all know, abilities that restore resources by an amount equal to max pool percent were exterminated in the Morrowind patch. I guess, this was right decision to make, as these abilities and passives encouraged overpowered sustain at some point (permablocking stam-DK with 55k stamina) BUT breaking points where buff turns to nerf, in my opinion, were chosen wrong. Now let's get to each ability in particular.

1. DK Battle Roar: 26k breaking point.
   Well, this one is not that bad in comparsion to the following ones, but still too low to be a class-defining feature which it is now. I think, something around 35k should be enough to affect PvE sustain big time (as both mana and stamina DD have over 40k), but still be viable in PvP for comeback-style gameplay and won't kill overall mana-DKs sustain which happens on PTS now. Also it will become a good buff for PvE tanks, because changes to Constitution and blocking cooldown hit us hard.
2. DK Helping Hands: 20k breaking point.
   This is where things got serious. This change is a buff only to mana-DKs and that's hilarious because they don't even use it. You will never even find a PvE tank with stamina under 20k. Which means that this passive has become completely useless. 990 stamina return is ridiculosly low (as I've already pointed out in Class Balance Thread Dark Deal gives sorcerers 5 times more stamina and amount of health equal to Igneous Shield at a 25% lower magicka cost). Right now, after several days of playtesting stam-DK on PTS I can tell you that its sustain is just impossibly terrible. My suggestion - double it 40k breaking point (2k stamina return), which means the same amount of resource for average stamina builds and nerf directly for stamina-stackers which you try to counter.
3. Templar Repentance: 30k breaking point
   I don't know why did Zenimax decide to break this skill and make it useless in group play which really pissed me off, but this is a point for another discussion. Main thing is, healers will probably use this morph much less and main users of it will be stamplars. Keep in mind that stamplars have the worst sustain in the game already. And yes, it was greatly improved by new Luminous Shards, but in solo-play like vMA or open-world PvP it is still terrible. Knowing that, if ZOS has no intends to return this ability to the group-play (which, I hope, is not true), I think it really needs a buff to a 40k point.
4. Argonian Resourceful: 38k breaking point
   Wow. That's a big one.
5. Redguard Adrenaline Rush: 15k breaking point
   That was the funniest joke ever, until I realized it wasn't a joke. I haven't seen a redguard under 30k stamina ever. Honestly, you should increase it to 30k at least or just remove this passive and give redguards another one. It it's current state it is so useless that there's no point in picking a redguard anymore.

I hope someone will read this and take into consideration. Best regards.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

wimhwimladimf

Maybe it's their way to sell more change your race tokens?

SodanTok

You took the breaking point comments too seriously. There are no breaking points. They took the skill/passive, looked at it, decided how much it should restore and THEN for your information added how much resources you need on live to achieve same value.

So in short, removing all 'breaking points' from your post. It is thread about your unhappiness with size of some nerfs. In that case, get in line.

Nobody in the game or in ZoS office is expecting there are redguards with 15k stamina. They only nerfed it so much you need to have 15k stam on live to achieve that.

KramUzibra

MrGorv wrote: »

As we all know, abilities that restore resources by an amount equal to max pool percent were exterminated in the Morrowind patch. I guess, this was right decision to make, as these abilities and passives encouraged overpowered sustain at some point (permablocking stam-DK with 55k stamina) BUT breaking points where buff turns to nerf, in my opinion, were chosen wrong. Now let's get to each ability in particular.

1. DK Battle Roar: 26k breaking point.
   Well, this one is not that bad in comparsion to the following ones, but still too low to be a class-defining feature which it is now. I think, something around 35k should be enough to affect PvE sustain big time (as both mana and stamina DD have over 40k), but still be viable in PvP for comeback-style gameplay and won't kill overall mana-DKs sustain which happens on PTS now. Also it will become a good buff for PvE tanks, because changes to Constitution and blocking cooldown hit us hard.
2. DK Helping Hands: 20k breaking point.
   This is where things got serious. This change is a buff only to mana-DKs and that's hilarious because they don't even use it. You will never even find a PvE tank with stamina under 20k. Which means that this passive has become completely useless. 990 stamina return is ridiculosly low (as I've already pointed out in Class Balance Thread Dark Deal gives sorcerers 5 times more stamina and amount of health equal to Igneous Shield at a 25% lower magicka cost). Right now, after several days of playtesting stam-DK on PTS I can tell you that its sustain is just impossibly terrible. My suggestion - double it 40k breaking point (2k stamina return), which means the same amount of resource for average stamina builds and nerf directly for stamina-stackers which you try to counter.
3. Templar Repentance: 30k breaking point
   I don't know why did Zenimax decide to break this skill and make it useless in group play which really pissed me off, but this is a point for another discussion. Main thing is, healers will probably use this morph much less and main users of it will be stamplars. Keep in mind that stamplars have the worst sustain in the game already. And yes, it was greatly improved by new Luminous Shards, but in solo-play like vMA or open-world PvP it is still terrible. Knowing that, if ZOS has no intends to return this ability to the group-play (which, I hope, is not true), I think it really needs a buff to a 40k point.
4. Argonian Resourceful: 38k breaking point
   Wow. That's a big one.
5. Redguard Adrenaline Rush: 15k breaking point
   That was the funniest joke ever, until I realized it wasn't a joke. I haven't seen a redguard under 30k stamina ever. Honestly, you should increase it to 35k at least or just remove this passive and give redguards another one. It it's current state it is so useless that there's no point in picking a redguard anymore.

I hope someone will read this and take into consideration. Best regards.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Thisbis so awesome thanks for posting... they should have just left things alone... and the redguard nerf Jesus! So Unnecessary

MrGorv

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

You took the breaking point comments too seriously.

I perfectly understand what does these comments mean. I am not unhappy with the size of the nerf (well, I am, but not in the way you mean it). I'm trying to point out that these changes do not serve the purpose they are designed to.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As such, some significant changes to resource recovery are being made. In general, each of the changes falls into one of four major categories:

• Restores based on the maximum resource pool - These abilities were simply too effective once you obtained a significant pool size.

ZOS tell us they aim to tone down perfomance of characters with large resource pools but they strike down whole races and classes regardless of their resource pool size.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

In that case, get in line.

Wat?

SodanTok

MrGorv wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

You took the breaking point comments too seriously.

I perfectly understand what does these comments mean. I am not unhappy with the size of the nerf (well, I am, but not in the way you mean it). I'm trying to point out that these changes do not serve the purpose they are designed to.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As such, some significant changes to resource recovery are being made. In general, each of the changes falls into one of four major categories:

• Restores based on the maximum resource pool - These abilities were simply too effective once you obtained a significant pool size.

ZOS tell us they aim to tone down perfomance of characters with large resource pools but they strike down whole races and classes regardless of their resource pool size.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

In that case, get in line.

Wat?

Are you reading just pieces without putting it in context? They are nerfing sustain and they are nerfing restores based on maximum resource pool. Case in point, redguard passive. If the only problem of this passive were 50k stam builds with huge restore, they would nerf it to values average stam pool of 30k gets. But it obviously was still too much.

Valencer

The redguard nerf is actually the one good change. Redguard being mandatory for non-ganker stamina builds is not healthy for the game.

KramUzibra

Valencer wrote: »

The redguard nerf is actually the one good change. Redguard being mandatory for non-ganker stamina builds is not healthy for the game.

No the change was not good, redguards passive is only effective at close range.. The nerf was far to drastic

D0ntevenL1ft

Redguard can stay as it is but i agree with the others. Im getting tired of seeing only redguard stam chars as its obviously the only class worth using right now.

Valencer

KramUzibra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The redguard nerf is actually the one good change. Redguard being mandatory for non-ganker stamina builds is not healthy for the game.

No the change was not good, redguards passive is only effective at close range.. The nerf was far to drastic

Does not hold up when you look at the stamina races that are actually being picked in PvP on the live server. Gankers are wood elf and almost everyone else is going redguard atm.

10% max stamina, 9% stamina regen and 480 extra effective stamina regen if you have 40k max stamina. The other stamina races arent even in the same league

BohnT

KramUzibra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The redguard nerf is actually the one good change. Redguard being mandatory for non-ganker stamina builds is not healthy for the game.

No the change was not good, redguards passive is only effective at close range.. The nerf was far to drastic

Yes and all stamina builds are based around close combat unless you use some really weird bow build that is way better off with other races. Redguard is the best race for stamina in the game as you get so much stamina and restore stamina. Redguard has built in helping hands you have around 40k stam on a redguard normally. That means 1200 stam every 5 seconds which is 480 stam regen that is insane. 3 gold stam regen glyphs give you about the same amount of stam regen before buffs.
The change was needed maybe increase the cap to 21000 but redguard will still be in a good position.

Nords should have gotten a buff as they are the weakest class in the entire game atm

Twohothardware

BohnT wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The redguard nerf is actually the one good change. Redguard being mandatory for non-ganker stamina builds is not healthy for the game.

No the change was not good, redguards passive is only effective at close range.. The nerf was far to drastic

Yes and all stamina builds are based around close combat unless you use some really weird bow build that is way better off with other races. Redguard is the best race for stamina in the game as you get so much stamina and restore stamina. Redguard has built in helping hands you have around 40k stam on a redguard normally. That means 1200 stam every 5 seconds which is 480 stam regen that is insane. 3 gold stam regen glyphs give you about the same amount of stam regen before buffs.
The change was needed maybe increase the cap to 21000 but redguard will still be in a good position.

Nords should have gotten a buff as they are the weakest class in the entire game atm

Imperials need a buff to their Red Diamond passive as well. Imperial is I believe the only Stam race that has no buffs that increase regen of health, stamina, or magicka and with these upcoming resource nerfs regen is going to be more important than max pools.

MrGorv

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Are you reading just pieces without putting it in context? They are nerfing sustain and they are nerfing restores based on maximum resource pool. Case in point, redguard passive. If the only problem of this passive were 50k stam builds with huge restore, they would nerf it to values average stam pool of 30k gets. But it obviously was still too much.

Then ZOS should tell us straight: we want to nerf sustain, no matter what your pool is. This is not consistent to say you're affecting people with significant resource pools and affect people with more than 15k stamina. Is 15k a significant pool? 20k? 25k?
Only thing I want is Zenimax to tell us that we are screwed big time before we actually get screwed. Not saying: "Everything's all right, only people with significant pools get the nerf!" and then punching in the face all stamina builds out there.
Numbers in the opening post are coherent with the announced purpose. Numbers in the Patch Notes are not.

Brutusmax1mus

You can't compare dark deal with helping hands!! One is a skill you must slot and cast that has a delay before you get any return which is also interruptible and can't be block casted. The other is a passive that you can benefit from while block casting!!!!! Tell me which you think should be stronger???? Good change imo.

D0ntevenL1ft

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can't compare dark deal with helping hands!! One is a skill you must slot and cast that has a delay before you get any return which is also interruptible and can't be block casted. The other is a passive that you can benefit from while block casting!!!!! Tell me which you think should be stronger???? Good change imo.

ROFL one gives back 2k stamina the other gives back 6k.

If you're casting dark deal in front of someones face you deserve to be bashed, minus the fact that by the time you see the animation its already completed.

Dark deal vs. Helping hands is not even close.

BohnT

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can't compare dark deal with helping hands!! One is a skill you must slot and cast that has a delay before you get any return which is also interruptible and can't be block casted. The other is a passive that you can benefit from while block casting!!!!! Tell me which you think should be stronger???? Good change imo.

Dark Deal is the most op skill in this game, there is no effective counterplay to it. And every other class defining resource managment skill got nerfed but dark deal didn't get any nerf. Helping Hands might be strong but with changes it's completely useless

Brutusmax1mus

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can't compare dark deal with helping hands!! One is a skill you must slot and cast that has a delay before you get any return which is also interruptible and can't be block casted. The other is a passive that you can benefit from while block casting!!!!! Tell me which you think should be stronger???? Good change imo.

ROFL one gives back 2k stamina the other gives back 6k.

If you're casting dark deal in front of someones face you deserve to be bashed, minus the fact that by the time you see the animation its already completed.

Dark deal vs. Helping hands is not even close.

And that's the way it should be. On live my dk returns 2.5k stamina with each igneous.

MrGorv

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

On live my dk returns 2.5k stamina with each igneous.

Then you have 50k stamina and you're the one who deserves this nerf. Not some dude with 32k stamina and miserable 1.6k returns.

SodanTok

MrGorv wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Are you reading just pieces without putting it in context? They are nerfing sustain and they are nerfing restores based on maximum resource pool. Case in point, redguard passive. If the only problem of this passive were 50k stam builds with huge restore, they would nerf it to values average stam pool of 30k gets. But it obviously was still too much.

Then ZOS should tell us straight: we want to nerf sustain, no matter what your pool is. This is not consistent to say you're affecting people with significant resource pools and affect people with more than 15k stamina. Is 15k a significant pool? 20k? 25k?
Only thing I want is Zenimax to tell us that we are screwed big time before we actually get screwed. Not saying: "Everything's all right, only people with significant pools get the nerf!" and then punching in the face all stamina builds out there.
Numbers in the opening post are coherent with the announced purpose. Numbers in the Patch Notes are not.

I dont even... what? They nerfed that passive to give you less stamina. It was HUGELY overperforming, so it got HUGE nerf. They never said they will affect only people with significant pool. Learn to read for f sake.

NightbladeMechanics

MrGorv wrote: »

[*] DK Helping Hands: 20k breaking point.
This is where things got serious. This change is a buff only to mana-DKs and that's hilarious because they don't even use it.

Are we playing the same game?

UnversedNumber3

MrGorv wrote: »

(as I've already pointed out in Class Balance Thread Dark Deal gives sorcerers 5 times more stamina and amount of health equal to Igneous Shield at a 25% lower magicka cost).

I dont think you can compare two different class abilities by just looking at the numbers. Dark deal has a cast time of 1 second. It is pretty easy to see this coming and bash or used a ranged interrupt to stop this from casting and setting the sorc off balance. Igneous shield is an AOE instant cast ability. You cant compare the two. They will never be equal because the do completely different things.

Brutusmax1mus

MrGorv wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

On live my dk returns 2.5k stamina with each igneous.

Then you have 50k stamina and you're the one who deserves this nerf. Not some dude with 32k stamina and miserable 1.6k returns.

About 48k, and yes it does. 1.6k is not miserable for a passive. Dk on live with only 32k stamina you're doing something wrong

MrGorv

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Learn to read for f sake.

Reply to me no more, please. This is going the wrong way.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Are we playing the same game?

Most definetely. I meant that stamina return of Helping Hands is not the key feature of mDK sustain and I rarely spam it as a source of stamina. Well, maybe I'm playing my mDK wrong.

e.gamemarkb14_ESO

Back when the game 1st came out, characters at CP 12 had a max health pool of around 5-6k, if memory serves. There was a big complaint how some of the ults, such as the mage guild wrecking beam, could vape another player because of the 4k+ dmg it could do.

Fast Forward to now and the we keep seeing grossly inflated numbers across the board, with players commonly achieving 8-10x the values as we had at launch. IMHO, these values and restructuring is what they should focus on rebalancing first and foremost.

The sustain for any class was never meant to be 100% up time, and required players to utilize resource gain abilities, like heavy attacks, potions, certain skills that each class has to regain some resources, etc.

Now the way they are going about doing things is certainly not a good way to do it, yet I can understand the goal they are aiming for, just the way they are doing it is hurting the game more than fixing it.

As an example, I enjoy my Templar, and will weave in heavy attacks with a staff that has the enchant on it to restore magicka, which helps me sustain most fights, along with the use of longer lasting potions for regen, + class skills and passives that also help.

There are armor sets that can artificially give me a lot more sustain, and a lot of complaints I see are revolving around players utilizing certain gear sets, demanding we keep our current dps lvls and expect to have near 100% up time without utilizing other mechanics of the game that was designed for resource gains.

We need more specific detailed examples of what players are experiencing, along with sharing the build, armor being used, skills, rotations, etc. Sadly these big changes make it impossible for ZOS to actually get proper data because of all the different systems each change plays through out. =(

MrGorv

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

a max health pool of around 5-6k

And also we had softcaps on each character stat. Actually, return of softcaps will be a solution of many problems, but, I guess the community now just won't be able to embrace it.

MrGorv

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

1.6k is not miserable for a passive.

Passive that is activated through using active abilities with 3,5k magicka cost minimum. This one can and should be compared to the Dark Deal ability. And when you put it into combo with Streak CC, cast time doesn't make any difference. I'm not asking for equal return, just to reduce the gap between them.

Valencer

Helping Hands would be insanely overpowered if it restored anywhere near as much stamina as Dark Deal, because although Dark Deal has a not-so-reliable counter it at least HAS a counter.

There's nothing you can do to stop a DK from proccing Helping Hands at will.

Dracane

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can't compare dark deal with helping hands!! One is a skill you must slot and cast that has a delay before you get any return which is also interruptible and can't be block casted. The other is a passive that you can benefit from while block casting!!!!! Tell me which you think should be stronger???? Good change imo.

ROFL one gives back 2k stamina the other gives back 6k.

If you're casting dark deal in front of someones face you deserve to be bashed, minus the fact that by the time you see the animation its already completed.

Dark deal vs. Helping hands is not even close.

I'm all for dark deal adjustments. But Brutus' got a point there.
Helping hands is pretty stupid, you get so much passive stamina for doing your regular stuff. Dark Exchange is an active skill that can be interrupted and makes your vulnerable, which is especially easy for melees and ranged chars can use crushing shock or this bow thingy.

Also, dark exchange restores 4,6k, not 6k.
Helpings hands in combination with igneous shield is, imo, a much more clever deal. You get easy stam, can still permablock and you also get good protection from the shield+ healing. I honestly think helping hands deserved what has happened.

NBrookus

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

MrGorv wrote: »

[*] DK Helping Hands: 20k breaking point.
This is where things got serious. This change is a buff only to mana-DKs and that's hilarious because they don't even use it.

Are we playing the same game?

I think he's speaking from a PvE DPS magDK perspective. They don't need stam except for an occasional dodge.

MrGorv

Valencer wrote: »

Helping Hands would be insanely overpowered if it restored anywhere near as much stamina as Dark Deal, because although Dark Deal has a not-so-reliable counter it at least HAS a counter.

Good point. I guess if it restored 2.5 times more than Helping Hands it is still not anywhere near, right? But now on PTS servers we have 5 times difference (990 vs 4.9k).

Dracane wrote: »

Helping hands is pretty stupid, you get so much passive stamina for doing your regular stuff. Dark Exchange is an active skill that can be interrupted and makes your vulnerable, which is especially easy for melees and ranged chars can use crushing shock or this bow thingy.

Regular stuff for magDKs (Petrify, Ash Cloud, Igneous Shields). But for stamina you have to just regulary dump your magicka into Igneous to keep fighting while you have Spiked Armor to cast too, and Igneous costs 4.1k magicka every time. And if you don't have 40k+ stamina these returns are not so big as you claim them to be.
As for the interrupt, don't you find this unfair that people have to run abilities on their bar, that are worse (Crushing over Force Pulse and Venom over Poison Injection) just to counter sorcs? I don't know if you've seen the fight between Krazzt Blackheart and stamina sorcerer (can't remember the name, sorry) on Aetherius duel tournament this winter. Krazzt wasn't able to counter his Dark Deal casts at all as it was timed right after a CC.

Dracane wrote: »

Also, dark exchange restores 4,6k, not 6k.
Helpings hands in combination with igneous shield is, imo, a much more clever deal. You get easy stam, can still permablock and you also get good protection from the shield+ healing. I honestly think helping hands deserved what has happened.

Don't really know where did 6k numbers come from, it is really 4.7k for Conversion morph and 4.9k for Deal. And you're right that you can still block when casting it and it gives healing... on live, but that's where all the other nerfs come in. Firstly, you can't permablock anymore because you're gonna run dry in no time. Second, protection from shield is scaled from your max health and in usual medium armor build, which are now in favor, you're not gonna have much more than 30k health, which means this shield is 5k thick and that's far from good. And, moreover, you now get Major Mending only while this shield holds up and, I guess, in most of the fights this will be like 0.5s. You still think it's a clever deal?

To be honest, I don't really know how to put these two in balance. Signigicant reduce cast time of Dark Deal and its resource return? Rework Igneous Shield so it cannot be block-casted? Hard to say. But the fact that Dark Deal is too powerful compared to Igneous spam in current PTS state seems obvious to me.