VMA token system with Morrowind update. It should be added ? Yes or No ?

Faulgor

I hate tokens, I prefer BoE and more than 1 useful trait.

parkham

Yes

Didgerion wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I never bought the "token system" idea, TBH.

I would prefer better trait balance and a smarter loot table.

There is no such thing as smarter loot table.

What if someone is after 2H - powered for his rally bust on back bar? will you qualify this combo as a smart drop or not?
You will screw that person with your smart loot table.

The best way to do it is to lower combination on looting. This can be achieved either by choosing the weapon type or weapon trait before opening the chest. Let them put some sort of attuning mechanics on chests.

The numbers currently are insane:
There are 12 weapons types and 9 traits.
Which makes 108 possible combinations.

So your chance of getting the weapon you need is 0.92%

Good luck - you will need lots of it when farming VMA. If your luck is bad it will take you thousands of runs to get it right.

Assuming everything is truly equal dropwise: Using a gambling formula that works for these types of calculations, the "chance" is about 90% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.

The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

EldritchPenguin

Yes

coolermh wrote: »

VMA is actually going to be harder with the sustain nerfs which is good cause most people need the challenge as its a bit to easy now. It is supposed to be the some of the hardest content in the game but most veterans players clear it in less then an hour and half with few or no deaths.

Yeah, most veteran players. It's really difficult for everybody else.

The rate at which hardcore veteran players can complete content is a poor metric to use to determine whether or not it's too easy. As long as the content isn't literally impossible, hardcore gamers can and will find a way to beat it, then they'll practice it until they can do it in their sleep. Then they'll complain that it's too easy and they have nothing to do. So regardless of how hard the content is, somebody is going to complain that they can breeze through it.

The metric they should use is the percentage of players who can beat it. I don't care how hard it is for hardcore vets. Nothing is ever hard enough for them. Tell me how hard it is for the average player to complete.

GrigorijMalahevich

No

Juhasow wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

Haha, no.

Very comprehensive and insightfull answer

Thank you! If you are ever in need of my insight, please do not hesitate to contact me!

On topic - people have invested a lot of time in VMA to get their desired drops, random is random. If ticket system is implemented it has to be implemented everywhere, VDSA, monster shoulder items (potentially helmets), BiS item sets weapon farming... I did 200 CoA runs and no BSW sharp inferno staff, but then I got my VMA inferno sharp (I've got 2 staves in about 50 VMA runs, received it for 2 leaderboards awards) and don't care about BSW staff anymore. Overall I can call the random balanced

jakeedmundson

Yes

Valera Progib wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

Haha, no.

Very comprehensive and insightfull answer

Thank you! If you are ever in need of my insight, please do not hesitate to contact me!

On topic - people have invested a lot of time in VMA to get their desired drops, random is random. If ticket system is implemented it has to be implemented everywhere, VDSA, monster shoulder items (potentially helmets), BiS item sets weapon farming... I did 200 CoA runs and no BSW sharp inferno staff, but then I got my VMA inferno sharp (I've got 2 staves in about 50 VMA runs, received it for 2 leaderboards awards) and don't care about BSW staff anymore. Overall I can call the random balanced

I understand why people want everything on a system... but i disagree.

The main difference being this... you can't trade vma weapons with group members. I have NEVER had an issue with getting monster sets or other dropped gear because of the simple idea of group trading.
vMA is a whole other beast. Top tier game difficulty - garbage reward system.

GrigorijMalahevich

No

parkham wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I never bought the "token system" idea, TBH.

I would prefer better trait balance and a smarter loot table.

There is no such thing as smarter loot table.

What if someone is after 2H - powered for his rally bust on back bar? will you qualify this combo as a smart drop or not?
You will screw that person with your smart loot table.

The best way to do it is to lower combination on looting. This can be achieved either by choosing the weapon type or weapon trait before opening the chest. Let them put some sort of attuning mechanics on chests.

The numbers currently are insane:
There are 12 weapons types and 9 traits.
Which makes 108 possible combinations.

So your chance of getting the weapon you need is 0.92%

Good luck - you will need lots of it when farming VMA. If your luck is bad it will take you thousands of runs to get it right.

Assuming everything is truly equal dropwise: Using a gambling formula that works for these types of calculations, the "chance" is about 90% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.

The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

Adenoma

Yes

I have a friend who has done over 400 runs and still doesn't have a sharpened 2h axe and a sharpened inferno. That seems wrong to me.

HoolDog

Yes

I have done it well over 500 times and still have no sharp inferno...

I have even done 58 runs at it since Monday 10th April 2017 and still don't have it.

Make a trade system where we can swap 50 unwanted weapons for ones we want. That will still need people to run it 100's of times to collect all the weapons that are any good... 2 axes, 2daggers, 1lightning, 1inferno, 1 greatsword, 1 maul, 1 resto, 1 bow and 1 battle axe.

Or even simpler trim the traits down... defending, precise and sharpened only... especially from the leaderboards... because the gold sword and shields really make my day lol... I can live with grinding them odds.

But a trade vendor is the best idea... also works for dungeons... 50 items for a desired item.

Give us that light at the end of the tunnel!

Any comment as this topic is being ignored on every thread so far?

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

theamazingx

Yes

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the difficulty of vMA, and I'm not sure why. No one is saying that you should get a participation reward of choice weapon after 20 runs. With a current droprate at ~1% for what you're looking for, getting it guaranteed after 200-300 runs seems perfectly reasonable. It's putting a ceiling on the rng factor. This isn't a proposal for some crutch for weaker players. One of the best sorcs I know did hundreds of runs with no results, whereas some noobie in my trade guild got a sharp inferno after struggling through their first complete over the course of a week. "Git gud" doesn't fix this.

parkham

Yes

@Valera Progib

Valera Progib wrote: »

Parkham wrote:

]
The chance is 90.00% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.
The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

This is pure probability - it's called the "Degree of Certainty". All that is needed is the percent chance of drop and the number of trials to get a reliable (and accurate) percentage chance something will occur.



If it's 96 combinations, then ..
50.00% chance of drop after 66.19 trials
90.00% chance of drop after 219.89 trials
99.99% chance of drop after 879.58 trials

I have heard some people have run vMSA over a 1000 times. Is there any way to prove that? Someone seriously put in over a 1000 hours of gameplay on vMSA? That's hard to believe or hard core to the max in my book.

At any rate, nothing is certain. And we can only assume that each drop is weighted equally. If drops are not weighted equally, then there's no way to formulate mathematically the degree of certainty without knowing the percentages involved.

Draconerus

Yes

A token system needs to be added to this game regardless.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Yes

There needs to be a hybrid system.

I want tokens, but I don't want sets of armor and weapons to be farmable in a week or two either.

RNG drops should still happen at the end of instances but it should also drop tokens.

Something like 5-10 per HM Vet trial or for vMA 20 per clear (daily) and when you get something like 500 tokens you can choose a piece.

If you give people their sets and weapons in less than a month then you will have nobody running trials etc after that month, it will become a raidlog situation like every other mmo.

TL;DR: Yes tokens, make it take a while though.

Juhasow

Yes

Valera Progib wrote: »

parkham wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I never bought the "token system" idea, TBH.

I would prefer better trait balance and a smarter loot table.

There is no such thing as smarter loot table.

What if someone is after 2H - powered for his rally bust on back bar? will you qualify this combo as a smart drop or not?
You will screw that person with your smart loot table.

The best way to do it is to lower combination on looting. This can be achieved either by choosing the weapon type or weapon trait before opening the chest. Let them put some sort of attuning mechanics on chests.

The numbers currently are insane:
There are 12 weapons types and 9 traits.
Which makes 108 possible combinations.

So your chance of getting the weapon you need is 0.92%

Good luck - you will need lots of it when farming VMA. If your luck is bad it will take you thousands of runs to get it right.

Assuming everything is truly equal dropwise: Using a gambling formula that works for these types of calculations, the "chance" is about 90% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.

The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

Does this changing fact there are people who completed vMA few hundreds times and still dont get weapon they want ? No. I think most of the people who farming vMA weapons doesnt care about pure math stats. They just want to have weapons they want without spending there hundreds hours. Some people have luck some dont. Math doesnt matter here.

Juhasow

Yes

Valera Progib wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

Haha, no.

Very comprehensive and insightfull answer

Thank you! If you are ever in need of my insight, please do not hesitate to contact me!

On topic - people have invested a lot of time in VMA to get their desired drops, random is random. If ticket system is implemented it has to be implemented everywhere, VDSA, monster shoulder items (potentially helmets), BiS item sets weapon farming... I did 200 CoA runs and no BSW sharp inferno staff, but then I got my VMA inferno sharp (I've got 2 staves in about 50 VMA runs, received it for 2 leaderboards awards) and don't care about BSW staff anymore. Overall I can call the random balanced

So what You're saying here is ,,I dont care about the topic because I already have weapons I wanted" ?
VMA is unique content because You need to rely only on Your luck You cannot exchange gear with other group members so drop chance is significant lower.

Subversus

Yes

parkham wrote: »

@Valera Progib

Valera Progib wrote: »

Parkham wrote:

]
The chance is 90.00% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.
The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

This is pure probability - it's called the "Degree of Certainty". All that is needed is the percent chance of drop and the number of trials to get a reliable (and accurate) percentage chance something will occur.



If it's 96 combinations, then ..
50% chance of drop after 66.19 trials
90% chance of drop after 219.89 trials
99% chance of drop after 879.58 trials

I have heard some people have run vMSA over a 1000 times. Is there any way to prove that? Someone seriously put in over a 1000 hours of gameplay on vMSA? That's hard to believe or hard core to the max in my book.

At any rate, nothing is certain. And we can only assume that each drop is weighted equally. If drops are not weighted equally, then there's no way to formulate mathematically the degree of certainty without knowing the percentages involveda .

?????? Streak one from NA used to have the highest sorc score and highest overall score on NA (and second worldwide only to andys). He also has a 600k vMA score. He still doesn't have a sharpened inferno. Rethink your statement mate, it really makes you look like a hater without any constructive criticism to say.






As for the subject at hand
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
If a player that literally used to be 2nd best at vMA in the world doesn't have a sharpened inferno staff after literally thousand of runs then it's pretty obvious that something is wrong with the system.

parkham

Yes

Math does matter.

It matters in that it strengthens the argument that something needs be done - that people should NOT need to spend 100s of runs in an arena to get what they are looking for.

They should treat it like crafting improvement. If you have X amount of tokens, you get a % to get what you want. Say, you have 100 tokens, you should get 100% to get what you want.

Sallington

Yes

coolermh wrote: »

VMA is actually going to be harder with the sustain nerfs which is good cause most people need the challenge as its a bit to easy now. It is supposed to be the some of the hardest content in the game but most veterans players clear it in less then an hour and half with few or no deaths.

What about that makes you think there shouldn't be a token system though? The difficulty has nothing to do with how trash the RNG is.

Artis

No

jakeedmundson wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of people i've ever played with and/or discussed this idea with agree with one thing.

VMA drop rates are HORRIBLE!

Token system or not... something needs to change. I don't care how or what gets changed... but it needs to get better.

i'm about 100 runs in... still looking for sharpened inferno and sharpened 2hander (like 95% of vma runners) and a sharpened 1h axe.

Bottom line

---

implement a token system OR change the traits that drop OR make more traits viable OR allow us to choose the weapon type with random trait OR etc. etc.....

The overwhelming majority of people don't know the second Newton's Law. Your point is?


That's just one more whining thread. Come on guys, why is your generation so entitled? Just play. You don't have to have every single item in the game. Some items are rare and it's ok.

VyersReaver

^lol, "your generation". I bet 10$ that you are from that generation. Elitism in your response is staggering. We are entitled, because we completed what most consider the hardest single player content in the game, some for HUNDREDS of times. And we didn't do it for fun, that's for sure. When something is not rewarding, it becomes stale, and stalemate makes players leave the game. And if a good player leaves (friends to some, trial mates for others), others lose interest too.

GrigorijMalahevich

No

Subversus wrote: »

parkham wrote: »

@Valera Progib

Valera Progib wrote: »

Parkham wrote:

]
The chance is 90.00% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.
The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

This is pure probability - it's called the "Degree of Certainty". All that is needed is the percent chance of drop and the number of trials to get a reliable (and accurate) percentage chance something will occur.



If it's 96 combinations, then ..
50% chance of drop after 66.19 trials
90% chance of drop after 219.89 trials
99% chance of drop after 879.58 trials

I have heard some people have run vMSA over a 1000 times. Is there any way to prove that? Someone seriously put in over a 1000 hours of gameplay on vMSA? That's hard to believe or hard core to the max in my book.

At any rate, nothing is certain. And we can only assume that each drop is weighted equally. If drops are not weighted equally, then there's no way to formulate mathematically the degree of certainty without knowing the percentages involveda .

?????? Streak one from NA used to have the highest sorc score and highest overall score on NA (and second worldwide only to andys). He also has a 600k vMA score. He still doesn't have a sharpened inferno. Rethink your statement mate, it really makes you look like a hater without any constructive criticism to say.






As for the subject at hand
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
If a player that literally used to be 2nd best at vMA in the world doesn't have a sharpened inferno staff after literally thousand of runs then it's pretty obvious that something is wrong with the system.

Mate, do I need to ask you for a permission to have an opinion? Get lost kiddo.

Random is random. I couldn't be less worried if StreakOne had a sharp inferno or hasn't, wtf does that mean?

I would be more happy with ZOS #fixstreak.

Malamar1229

I made a suggestion to add a Reroll Scroll to the Writ Voucher Merchant that would basically be consumed upon use but would allow the trait on a weapon/armor piece to be re-rolled when used.
Reason I like my suggestion is because it will stimulate the crafting economy again. on PC the price of materials is dirt cheap, the price on writs is so low as well. no demand.

Artis

No

VyersReaver wrote: »

^lol, "your generation". I bet 10$ that you are from that generation. Elitism in your response is staggering. We are entitled, because we completed what most consider the hardest single player content in the game, some for HUNDREDS of times. And we didn't do it for fun, that's for sure. When something is not rewarding, it becomes stale, and stalemate makes players leave the game. And if a good player leaves (friends to some, trial mates for others), others lose interest too.

NO ONE forced to do it if it's not fun. You are NOT entitled to have every item in the game. The master weapons are supposed to be rare, which means some people will not get them at all and some will take forever to get them. If it's not rewarding - don't play it. Play what you like so the process itself is rewarding. You don't need vMA weapons for anything in the game.

If a good player leaves? If you NEED vma weapons to be good, you were never a good player to begin with.

Subversus

Yes

Artis wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of people i've ever played with and/or discussed this idea with agree with one thing.

VMA drop rates are HORRIBLE!

Token system or not... something needs to change. I don't care how or what gets changed... but it needs to get better.

i'm about 100 runs in... still looking for sharpened inferno and sharpened 2hander (like 95% of vma runners) and a sharpened 1h axe.

Bottom line

---

implement a token system OR change the traits that drop OR make more traits viable OR allow us to choose the weapon type with random trait OR etc. etc.....

The overwhelming majority of people don't know the second Newton's Law. Your point is?


That's just one more whining thread. Come on guys, why is your generation so entitled? Just play. You don't have to have every single item in the game. Some items are rare and it's ok.

No, some items aren't rare. vMA items aren't rare, they are behind an RNG wall. My buddy won a sharp mace in his 5th run and 2 runs afterwards a sharpened inferno. That's not a rare item, he just won the RNG loot wheel. Just because you got them early doesn't mean we have to spend countless hours and hundreds of runs trying to get it. What an arrogant point of view.

Subversus

Yes

Valera Progib wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

parkham wrote: »

@Valera Progib

Valera Progib wrote: »

Parkham wrote:

]
The chance is 90.00% that you will get the item you're looking for after 247.53 runs.
The chance is 99.99% after 990.10 runs.
The chance is 50.00% after 74.51 runs!

The game doesn't count your previous drops in to next drop. It is "expected" to be like that, but the chance to drop your desired weapon is always around 1%. It has equal drop chance for every item all the time and there is no history.

There are 96 different drops (as far as I am aware) to get every weapon in every trait you "should" have to do around 100 runs, but considering there are 96 different drops, you would have to do around 10 000 runs to get a something like "pure" statistics and I can bet it will be evened out at around 1000 runs.

This is pure probability - it's called the "Degree of Certainty". All that is needed is the percent chance of drop and the number of trials to get a reliable (and accurate) percentage chance something will occur.



If it's 96 combinations, then ..
50% chance of drop after 66.19 trials
90% chance of drop after 219.89 trials
99% chance of drop after 879.58 trials

I have heard some people have run vMSA over a 1000 times. Is there any way to prove that? Someone seriously put in over a 1000 hours of gameplay on vMSA? That's hard to believe or hard core to the max in my book.

At any rate, nothing is certain. And we can only assume that each drop is weighted equally. If drops are not weighted equally, then there's no way to formulate mathematically the degree of certainty without knowing the percentages involveda .

?????? Streak one from NA used to have the highest sorc score and highest overall score on NA (and second worldwide only to andys). He also has a 600k vMA score. He still doesn't have a sharpened inferno. Rethink your statement mate, it really makes you look like a hater without any constructive criticism to say.






As for the subject at hand
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
If a player that literally used to be 2nd best at vMA in the world doesn't have a sharpened inferno staff after literally thousand of runs then it's pretty obvious that something is wrong with the system.

Mate, do I need to ask you for a permission to have an opinion? Get lost kiddo.

Random is random. I couldn't be less worried if StreakOne had a sharp inferno or hasn't, wtf does that mean?

I would be more happy with ZOS #fixstreak.

I gave you a concrete example that shut down your argument. I didn't say anything about you not having an opinion, I only nullified that opinion making it obsolete in this whole argument. You're allowed to hold on to it or not, it won't make it true.

And come on, calling me names in a debate? That's extremely mature

Godspeed

Yes

If there was a token system I might actually do this content.

Krileon

Yes

I'm not sure. I said yes, but I'm more of a "yes, but only if they don't...". What I want to see is bind on pickup sets done away with. Everything should be bind on equip. Open VMA weapons to free trade! Let them be sold.. let them be traded to friends or guildies..

Juhasow

Yes

Krileon wrote: »

I'm not sure. I said yes, but I'm more of a "yes, but only if they don't...". What I want to see is bind on pickup sets done away with. Everything should be bind on equip. Open VMA weapons to free trade! Let them be sold.. let them be traded to friends or guildies..

Naaah that's too much. Elite content should have elite rewards obtainable only for those who completed it.

Ladislao

No

Didgerion wrote: »

There is no such thing as smarter loot table.

What if someone is after 2H - powered for his rally bust on back bar? will you qualify this combo as a smart drop or not?
You will screw that person with your smart loot table.

parkham wrote: »

I have heard some people have run vMSA over a 1000 times. Is there any way to prove that? Someone seriously put in over a 1000 hours of gameplay on vMSA? That's hard to believe or hard core to the max in my book.

Artis wrote: »

NO ONE forced to do it if it's not fun. You are NOT entitled to have every item in the game. The master weapons are supposed to be rare, which means some people will not get them at all and some will take forever to get them. If it's not rewarding - don't play it. Play what you like so the process itself is rewarding. You don't need vMA weapons for anything in the game.

If a good player leaves? If you NEED vma weapons to be good, you were never a good player to begin with.

I thing these posts should appear automatically in similar topics. I hope drop system will never be changed on msa.
Although I agree with changing BoP to BoE at least in dungeons. Just because it's not special equip like master/msa.

Artis

No

Subversus wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of people i've ever played with and/or discussed this idea with agree with one thing.

VMA drop rates are HORRIBLE!

Token system or not... something needs to change. I don't care how or what gets changed... but it needs to get better.

i'm about 100 runs in... still looking for sharpened inferno and sharpened 2hander (like 95% of vma runners) and a sharpened 1h axe.

Bottom line

---

implement a token system OR change the traits that drop OR make more traits viable OR allow us to choose the weapon type with random trait OR etc. etc.....

The overwhelming majority of people don't know the second Newton's Law. Your point is?


That's just one more whining thread. Come on guys, why is your generation so entitled? Just play. You don't have to have every single item in the game. Some items are rare and it's ok.

No, some items aren't rare. vMA items aren't rare, they are behind an RNG wall. My buddy won a sharp mace in his 5th run and 2 runs afterwards a sharpened inferno. That's not a rare item, he just won the RNG loot wheel. Just because you got them early doesn't mean we have to spend countless hours and hundreds of runs trying to get it. What an arrogant point of view.

Yes they are. Not everyone has them duh. vMA items are rare. Your buddy got them in a few runs and some people will not get them any time soon.

Please, look up a definition of a word rare and maybe read the first chapter of a probability theory textbook.

Besides, you're saying a player got 600k score without a sharpened inferno? Great. Then no one needs those weapons to perform. So now I see 0 reasons why those weapons should be handed to everyone who wants them.

GawdSB

Yes

coolermh wrote: »

VMA is actually going to be harder with the sustain nerfs which is good cause most people need the challenge as its a bit to easy now. It is supposed to be the some of the hardest content in the game but most veterans players clear it in less then an hour and half with few or no deaths.

Lol @ VMA being too easy. Most of the community still can't beat it.