Is Wrath's inherent weakness supposed to be exploited in combat?

WhiteMage

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the growing prevalence of heavy armor in PvP. Heavy armor is naturally the armor weight that provides the most passive defense, and it does so by a fairly large margin, but despite this it was very unpopular a while back and you would only see dedicated tanks wearing it. Heavy armor got a rework somewhere down the line that opened the door to its viability for all sorts of roles that sought tankiness while not gimping themselves in offense or support. The passive that changed all this was Wrath.

Wrath is an interesting passive. As I'm sure we're all aware, it applies a stacking weapon and spell damage buff for every hit sustained. This buff refreshes itself as along as the heavy armor-wearer suffers damage from any source at least once every six seconds. Looking at this, one may assume that heavy armor builds are intended to be slow-starters whose damage ramps up as the fight drags on. It also has an implied (and even explicitly stated by the Devs, iirc) counter, where you can clear Wrath from the heavy-armored opponent by not damaging him for 6 seconds.

Now, ignoring any other design flaws of heavy for a moment, has anyone here EVER used this tactic in a fight with a heavy-armored opponent? I can say that I have only tried it once, and only against an opponent that needed my full attention and toolkit to face, who was playing a class that I am intimately familiar with the intricacies of. That kept me alive long enough for the duel to be interrupted, but that is a little beside the point.

I am of the opinion that this is an unreasonable mechanic to exploit. To ensure the enemy is not taking any damage for 6 seconds is borderline impossible outside of a 1v1, not to mention the infeasibility of pulling it off. Even using LoS and other tools, allowing your opponent 6 full seconds to attack you unmolested is downright dangerous. A fight can be over and done with in less than 6 seconds in ESO with the burst that we have, in part due to power creep.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

zuto40

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

impossible to exploit it against anyone with a brain, 6 seconds of pure dps is a lot of damage

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Tbh I'd still use heavy armor in duels even if I didn't have wrath. I don't think wrath is solely responsible for it being OP. Conatitution, rapid mending and juggernaut are all very very very strong. I can speak for a lot of duelers when I say that the moment we'd let heavy armor go is the moment when at least 2 of these, along with wrath, get nerfed very hard. Like I don't even feel the nerf on rapid mending, heavy attacks > igneous spam or syphoning attacks heavy is still full stam back, especially since most heavy armor nightblades run dw/2h in duels, double proccing syphoning.

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

Derra

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

People have been using it since - well atleast 1 tam in open world and for dueling since soth?

Heavy armor stamina sets outperform anything medium can offer by quite a bit. Ravager, Fury, Seventh Legion, Veiled Heritance and (Truth).
Especially stacking either both offensive choices ravager + heritance or both defensive ones legion + fury is absolutely nasty and way outperforms any alternatives.

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

Only reason I haven't been using it was because I thought you couldn't crit on blocking targets up until like last month...

NeillMcAttack

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

People have been using it since - well atleast 1 tam in open world and for dueling since soth?

Heavy armor stamina sets outperform anything medium can offer by quite a bit. Ravager, Fury, Seventh Legion, Veiled Heritance and (Truth).
Especially stacking either both offensive choices ravager + heritance or both defensive ones legion + fury is absolutely nasty and way outperforms any alternatives.

This ^^
These sets way outperform the wraith passive. They are insanely strong, full defense and procs, when you factor in wraith, of up to 1500 weapon damage!! Not including an added monster set for even more burst etc. Fury is so last Tuesday!!

Brrrofski

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

See, I tired fury on a stamplar and Stam sorc a while back and just didn't like it. Put it on my Stam DK a month or so ago and loved it. DK can really get the most out of it. Specially with sword and board. A Stam sorc or stamplar can't stand and take as much as a dk so it's harder to build up the damage from fury.

My DK can stand there all day and just soak up damage before a dizzying swing, leap, heavy attack executioner and their done. It's broken - I'm the first to admit it, but you can't do it as good on other classes.

Ravager is a lot better on a stamplar imo. I still like black rose on Stam sorc, just go really damage focused on rest of setup.

technohic

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

I think they intended this to be a counter, but it doesn't work. Still don't see a problem with it or heavy armor though. People keep saying heavy is OP yet I don't see anything but tanks use it in endgame PVE. It just works well in PVP where damage is halved but resistance is not, then burst is high while sustained DPS takes a back seat making it more appealing to give up DPS in favor of absorbing more of that burst.

Now you could argue that with everything being halved in PVP except resistance. I would then also half penetration as well. Huge amounts of penetration also makes the other 2 armors less desirable in this high burst PVP because you can then bypass most resistance.

DocFrost72

Genuine question; how do you feel about sorc wards and blazing shield?

Lexxypwns

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Its all fine and good talking about ravager, fury, 7th legion, etc. But Fasalla is easily stronger than all of those and has great synergy with any damage based set.

Wrath is strong but almost irrelevant unless its paired with another damage set, but when you can proc wrath and a 600+ weapon damage buff on top of that things start to look different.

The reality is that the champion points create these problems, none of these sets are drastically over performing, even when combined, except for the fact that CP make sustain a joke. I don't have a problem with heavy armor builds being tanky AF and needing to be slowly worn down to be killed. I don't have a problem with them having the ability to become more dangerous as they become more vulnerable over a prolonged fight. However, atm, you can literally sustain forever in heavy armor which makes activating wrath a trivial manner.

If heavy armor + CP wasn't infinite sustain and heavy builds could be worn down through superior resource management then damage scaling up the longer the fight goes on makes total sense and creates a "berserker" effect if you will. The longer you can pressure this person the more damage they're going to do while their resource pools get lower and lower. THAT is workable counterplay, what we have now isn't.

I know the devs think the counterplay is don't hit the person, but the counterplay has to be that wearing heavy you WILL eventually run out of resources, otherwise wrath has no workable counter. I'm not necessarily in favor of wrath having a direct counter, but there has to be a real reason not to run heavy otherwise people won't run light/medium outside of niche builds.

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

People have been using it since - well atleast 1 tam in open world and for dueling since soth?

Heavy armor stamina sets outperform anything medium can offer by quite a bit. Ravager, Fury, Seventh Legion, Veiled Heritance and (Truth).
Especially stacking either both offensive choices ravager + heritance or both defensive ones legion + fury is absolutely nasty and way outperforms any alternatives.

Yea, and that's late to the party. Fury is a Thieves Guild set released over a year ago. It wasn't a convincing choice until the heavy armor buffs of Dark Brotherhood patch, but I'm of the opinion that the whole time Black Rose had its fotm following DB, Fury was a competitive set. People just didn't realize how easily you could sustain in heavy without BR until some time had gone by and BR nerfs turned them onto alternatives. The CP cap has been high enough to cover the key green stars for a long time, so I doubt incremental CP cap increases made the difference.

Subversus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Holding attacks to let Wrath wind down isn't necessarily going to get you killed, but it will let your opponent recover to full health and resources and reset the fight.

Also can we talk about Fury while we're on this subject? It operates the same way and is currently impacting stamina balance pretty severely.

It baffles me that it took this long for stamina players to start using Fury...

Only reason I haven't been using it was because I thought you couldn't crit on blocking targets up until like last month...

You can crit on blocking targets and on shields. Shields just don't take crit damage. I wish mechanics which proc on crit damage had special conditions other than being gated through crit chance rng, but they don't.

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

@Lexxypwns idk how the meta is on console, but fassalla is everything but the best set I can think of in duels. It's literally just stop attacking and like heal up or something then get back to smashing. Ppl running it usually have *** dmg too...

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

Correct. The game code records crits against shields, but shields have infinite (or at least very very high) critical resistance and therefore don't take critical damage. Scathing, Briarheart, Fury...they all proc on attacks against shields.

Lexxypwns

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

@Lexxypwns idk how the meta is on console, but fassalla is everything but the best set I can think of in duels. It's literally just stop attacking and like heal up or something then get back to smashing. Ppl running it usually have *** dmg too...

Hey, let's hop off my nuts about the console vs PC thing real quick and let me break it down to you why Fasalla is much stronger than you realize.

You say Fasalla users usually have *** damage, I can understand this, because usually in a group environment you have someone who is able to reliably tank a lot of damage wear this set. However, you can easily stack Fasalla with Ravager/7th legion/fury AND a damage proc set.

Now, you're going to tell me how I won't have sustain in a setup like this, nevermind snb ulti giving sustain and defense, but that's the beauty of fasalla, with even just a little bit of damage it allows you to end fights very quickly against all but shield stacking builds. You hard counter ALL DoTs and because you're wearing 5-7Heavy you CAN NOT be insta burst down by one player. This means in order to even attempt to secure a kill the player has to put damage on you, allowing Fury(for example) and Fasalla to BOTH activate. Toss in major defile and now you've cut the opponents healing down to a trickle and are able to unload the burst from 4k weapon damage, bonus points for a selene/tremor/veli proc with an ulti...

Idk how you think a set that allows you to stack insane healing debuffs while still being able to run 2 other damage sets isn't top tier, but you keep believing that if you want.

Edit: In fact, this setup is exponentially stronger on PC than consoles since on console you cut off your regen in order to execute LA-ransack-bash combo.

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

@NightbladeMechanics that is game changing info for me thanks a bunch, much appreciated time to get back to the drawing board and cheese out the stamdk duel build ayeeeee

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

Lexxypwns

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

I submit that the only reason fasalla is even relevant is because heals in their current state are drastically overtuned.

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics that is game changing info for me thanks a bunch, much appreciated time to get back to the drawing board and cheese out the stamdk duel build ayeeeee

Derra

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

What i hate about fasallas is it´s absolute dependancy on the enemy to hit you.

There are so many healers that literally never attack and therefor never procc fasalla on themselves.

timidobserver

This mechanic, per design, is easy enough to take advantage of.

It's pretty easy to exploit. If you run into a tank that you can't kill, ignore him. By ignoring him you decrease his damage potential.

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

I submit that the only reason fasalla is even relevant is because heals in their current state are drastically overtuned.

If heals were weaker, Fasalla's would become stronger relative to now because with weaker heals, people would be even less able to recover from damage with that juicy debuff applied.

The counter to Fasalla's, ironically, is stacking even stronger healing. I'm pretty sure Fasalla's debuff can't even be purged -- at least its little animation stays on me and keeps hissing as I spam purge. The debuff has never appeared in my debuff tracker, either.

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

What i hate about fasallas is it´s absolute dependancy on the enemy to hit you.

There are so many healers that literally never attack and therefor never procc fasalla on themselves.

I hate that too. >:|

tplink3r1

WhiteMage wrote: »

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the growing prevalence of heavy armor in PvP. Heavy armor is naturally the armor weight that provides the most passive defense, and it does so by a fairly large margin, but despite this it was very unpopular a while back and you would only see dedicated tanks wearing it. Heavy armor got a rework somewhere down the line that opened the door to its viability for all sorts of roles that sought tankiness while not gimping themselves in offense or support. The passive that changed all this was Wrath.

Wrath is an interesting passive. As I'm sure we're all aware, it applies a stacking weapon and spell damage buff for every hit sustained. This buff refreshes itself as along as the heavy armor-wearer suffers damage from any source at least once every six seconds. Looking at this, one may assume that heavy armor builds are intended to be slow-starters whose damage ramps up as the fight drags on. It also has an implied (and even explicitly stated by the Devs, iirc) counter, where you can clear Wrath from the heavy-armored opponent by not damaging him for 6 seconds.

Now, ignoring any other design flaws of heavy for a moment, has anyone here EVER used this tactic in a fight with a heavy-armored opponent? I can say that I have only tried it once, and only against an opponent that needed my full attention and toolkit to face, who was playing a class that I am intimately familiar with the intricacies of. That kept me alive long enough for the duel to be interrupted, but that is a little beside the point.

I am of the opinion that this is an unreasonable mechanic to exploit. To ensure the enemy is not taking any damage for 6 seconds is borderline impossible outside of a 1v1, not to mention the infeasibility of pulling it off. Even using LoS and other tools, allowing your opponent 6 full seconds to attack you unmolested is downright dangerous. A fight can be over and done with in less than 6 seconds in ESO with the burst that we have, in part due to power creep.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Not worth it, Wrath only gives the wearer 200 damage. And it's 5 seconds btw.

zyk

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Fasalla's is basically what made me stop playing PVP every day. Early in 2.3, after having fun with VD for a week, I began to test Fasalla's and decided the game was moving in an asinine direction. I was correct.

HA builds may not have been popular before 2.4, but they were balanced and extremely effective. I thought the buff was completely insane.

The game used to be so fast and fluid but is now so clunky.

Lexxypwns

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

I submit that the only reason fasalla is even relevant is because heals in their current state are drastically overtuned.

If heals were weaker, Fasalla's would become stronger relative to now because with weaker heals, people would be even less able to recover from damage with that juicy debuff applied.

The counter to Fasalla's, ironically, is stacking even stronger healing. I'm pretty sure Fasalla's debuff can't even be purged -- at least its little animation stays on me and keeps hissing as I spam purge. The debuff has never appeared in my debuff tracker, either.

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

What i hate about fasallas is it´s absolute dependancy on the enemy to hit you.

There are so many healers that literally never attack and therefor never procc fasalla on themselves.

I hate that too. >:|

See, I think if heals were toned down that running fasalla wouldn't be nearly as effective as running a second big damage set, as already mentioned, stacking ravager/fury/7th/heritance is strong in the current meta. If you can't get healed back to full in 1 BoL or 3 vigor ticks then the need for the heal debuff from fasalla goes away completely since you can just OMGWTFBURST over and over again until you outdamage the heals anyway. At that point I think it gets limited to medium/large group setups where you can have the crazy damage from other builds to supplement the heal debuff.

@Derra I couldn't agree more about the inherent weakness Fasalla has, but if we were proc'ing a unique heal debuff on offensive actions it would be far too strong. The best we can do is run Fasalla on a build with major defile and hope to kill the people the healer is healing. Tbh, there's so many ridiculous situations in cyrodiil where no matter what happens the numbers just become overwhelming and you lose that you can't find a way to avoid it unless you just run the second you stop outnumbering an opponent. I just stop concerning myself with these situations because if I dwell on it then it sucks the fun out of the game for me.

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

@Lexxypwns idk how the meta is on console, but fassalla is everything but the best set I can think of in duels. It's literally just stop attacking and like heal up or something then get back to smashing. Ppl running it usually have *** dmg too...

Hey, let's hop off my nuts about the console vs PC thing real quick and let me break it down to you why Fasalla is much stronger than you realize.

You say Fasalla users usually have *** damage, I can understand this, because usually in a group environment you have someone who is able to reliably tank a lot of damage wear this set. However, you can easily stack Fasalla with Ravager/7th legion/fury AND a damage proc set.

Now, you're going to tell me how I won't have sustain in a setup like this, but that's the beauty of fasalla, with even just a little bit of damage it allows you to end fights very quickly against all but shield stacking builds. You hard counter ALL DoTs and because you're wearing 5-7Heavy you CAN NOT be insta burst down by one player. This means in order to even attempt to secure a kill the player has to put damage on you, allowing Fury(for example) and Fasalla to BOTH activate. Toss in major defile and now you've cut the opponents healing down to a trickle and are able to unload the burst from 4k weapon damage...

Idk how you think a set that allows you to stack insane healing debuffs while still being able to run 2 other damage sets isn't top tier, but you keep believing that if you want.

I don't know about open world as I really dislike it on anything but magblade. I was talking out of a 1v1 perspective. I do understand how it might actually be good in open world, but 1v1 is different, at least from my experience. I have seen many players run it, and while it is good there are better sets to run tbh. I have seen plenty of people on PC EU try it, they all end up ditching it. Now idk if they do it because people throw *** at them or because they keep losing to higher tier players, but I know that no one in the top tier on this platform is using it. I should give it a shot on my stamdk, I can already imagine the build - fury fasalla bloodspawn with vMA defending axe backbar with double dot poison. That's nasty though it may be lacking against shields as they are largely unaffected by it

Your setup should have enough sustain 1v1 btw

Lexxypwns

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Subversus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

@Lexxypwns idk how the meta is on console, but fassalla is everything but the best set I can think of in duels. It's literally just stop attacking and like heal up or something then get back to smashing. Ppl running it usually have *** dmg too...

Hey, let's hop off my nuts about the console vs PC thing real quick and let me break it down to you why Fasalla is much stronger than you realize.

You say Fasalla users usually have *** damage, I can understand this, because usually in a group environment you have someone who is able to reliably tank a lot of damage wear this set. However, you can easily stack Fasalla with Ravager/7th legion/fury AND a damage proc set.

Now, you're going to tell me how I won't have sustain in a setup like this, but that's the beauty of fasalla, with even just a little bit of damage it allows you to end fights very quickly against all but shield stacking builds. You hard counter ALL DoTs and because you're wearing 5-7Heavy you CAN NOT be insta burst down by one player. This means in order to even attempt to secure a kill the player has to put damage on you, allowing Fury(for example) and Fasalla to BOTH activate. Toss in major defile and now you've cut the opponents healing down to a trickle and are able to unload the burst from 4k weapon damage...

Idk how you think a set that allows you to stack insane healing debuffs while still being able to run 2 other damage sets isn't top tier, but you keep believing that if you want.

I don't know about open world as I really dislike it on anything but magblade. I was talking out of a 1v1 perspective. I do understand how it might actually be good in open world, but 1v1 is different, at least from my experience. I have seen many players run it, and while it is good there are better sets to run tbh. I have seen plenty of people on PC EU try it, they all end up ditching it. Now idk if they do it because people throw *** at them or because they keep losing to higher tier players, but I know that no one in the top tier on this platform is using it. I should give it a shot on my stamdk, I can already imagine the build - fury fasalla bloodspawn with vMA defending axe backbar with double dot poison. That's nasty though it may be lacking against shields as they are largely unaffected by it

Your setup should have enough sustain 1v1 btw

Its because Fasalla is so strong as to be considered poor taste to run in duels. It removes almost all of the need for skill. People don't run it because its too good and completely invalidates any point of dueling. Seriously, just try it and watch, you have to be so handily outplayed to lose a 1v1 against anything but mag sorc.

Fasalla is ridiculously good both open world and in duels, even moreso on stam DK/sorc where sustain is a cake walk and you have great pressure from DoTs and stacking damage from your other sets. Run it with bone pirate and a proc set or Fury/proc set and you'll still get insane burst.

Valencer

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics wait what? So I know that you can't take crit damage as a shield stacker, but could say fury hypothetically work on my light armor magblade? That's new to me o_o does the same thing happen with block?

@Lexxypwns idk how the meta is on console, but fassalla is everything but the best set I can think of in duels. It's literally just stop attacking and like heal up or something then get back to smashing. Ppl running it usually have *** dmg too...

Hey, let's hop off my nuts about the console vs PC thing real quick and let me break it down to you why Fasalla is much stronger than you realize.

You say Fasalla users usually have *** damage, I can understand this, because usually in a group environment you have someone who is able to reliably tank a lot of damage wear this set. However, you can easily stack Fasalla with Ravager/7th legion/fury AND a damage proc set.

Now, you're going to tell me how I won't have sustain in a setup like this, nevermind snb ulti giving sustain and defense, but that's the beauty of fasalla, with even just a little bit of damage it allows you to end fights very quickly against all but shield stacking builds. You hard counter ALL DoTs and because you're wearing 5-7Heavy you CAN NOT be insta burst down by one player. This means in order to even attempt to secure a kill the player has to put damage on you, allowing Fury(for example) and Fasalla to BOTH activate. Toss in major defile and now you've cut the opponents healing down to a trickle and are able to unload the burst from 4k weapon damage, bonus points for a selene/tremor/veli proc with an ulti...

Idk how you think a set that allows you to stack insane healing debuffs while still being able to run 2 other damage sets isn't top tier, but you keep believing that if you want.

Edit: In fact, this setup is exponentially stronger on PC than consoles since on console you cut off your regen in order to execute LA-ransack-bash combo.

Fasalla's doesnt hard counter DoTs because DoT damage doesnt proc Fasalla's. Only direct damage (including the initial hit of DoTs that have a separate initial hit) and ground targeted attacks...

Dont disagree with you that Fasalla's is crazy good, but I know I won't die to a fasalla's user unless I keep hitting them when I should be healing up instead. It's just a stupid cheesy set that's a perfect example of how overtuned a lot of the sets they added the past year really are. Gear sets shouldnt have THIS much of an impact on the flow of a fight...

NightbladeMechanics

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

I submit that the only reason fasalla is even relevant is because heals in their current state are drastically overtuned.

If heals were weaker, Fasalla's would become stronger relative to now because with weaker heals, people would be even less able to recover from damage with that juicy debuff applied.

The counter to Fasalla's, ironically, is stacking even stronger healing. I'm pretty sure Fasalla's debuff can't even be purged -- at least its little animation stays on me and keeps hissing as I spam purge. The debuff has never appeared in my debuff tracker, either.

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I have gone back to my old Dark Brotherhood days Fasalla's + Transmutation mageblade build, plus a cost reduction glyph since I took all my cost reduction CP out last month.

Not quite 2k unbuffed spell damage, and not a problem in the world. Fasalla's is op! (But so are heals.)

What i hate about fasallas is it´s absolute dependancy on the enemy to hit you.

There are so many healers that literally never attack and therefor never procc fasalla on themselves.

I hate that too. >:|

See, I think if heals were toned down that running fasalla wouldn't be nearly as effective as running a second big damage set, as already mentioned, stacking ravager/fury/7th/heritance is strong in the current meta. If you can't get healed back to full in 1 BoL or 3 vigor ticks then the need for the heal debuff from fasalla goes away completely since you can just OMGWTFBURST over and over again until you outdamage the heals anyway. At that point I think it gets limited to medium/large group setups where you can have the crazy damage from other builds to supplement the heal debuff.

It wouldn't be as necessary, perhaps, if your group has a ton of straight burst, but I'd still argue that it would be even more effective at shutting down the ability of an enemy group to recover than it currently is if heals were weaker across the board.

To compare, it's like stacking Fasalla's and defile debuffs in CP campaigns versus Azura's. In CP campaigns, you need both debuffs to dent a group with strong heals. In Azura's, healing is lower across the board, individual healing debuffs are felt more strongly, yes, but stacking multiple healing debuffs together utterly shuts down healing altogether.

Subversus

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

@Valencer hmmm now I realized how I kept winning against this one dude running fasalla's a while ago on my stam dk running 5 dots... by what @Lexxypwns said I should've been debugged constantly which I wasn't. Ah well, that means the set is quite easily countered as you can just like vigor > igneous > rally and by the time you rally the debuff is gone. Now I guess that's why ppl don't run it on here haha

Kas

This mechainic intentionally posesses this inherent weakness, but in practice it is impossible to exploit.

there is another inherent design flaw (again one that does not matter all that much in practice, because of the reasons you already describe): the "keep in combat / la to have ult generation". It really doesn't matter much in practice, but the general idea behind one mechanic is, that you shouldn't stop fighting, and the intended counter is to stop fighting. it just does'Ät make sense:

imho wrath could be reworked into an empower-like buff that builds up but is depleted in a single attack. then a TANK build would have the choice to tank and counter with an offensive hit. making use of this HA mechanic would force the HA wearer to give up on the pressure for a moment. for the mechanic to ever be seful, it would obviously have to be buffed. but think of something like 2% empower per direct (non dot, non aoe) attack, stacking up to a 50% empower or something. So potentially a HUGE burst, but coming at a real cost/downside

The current design is just stupid. Sure, if the numbers aren't too large, it's not game breaking, but the idea of not attacking into heavy armor builds may make sense against full tanks but doesn't against your verage duel/1vX stamina build in heavy armor.