Explanation

Rohamad_Ali

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Sports ! Imagine a professional football game where you watch each team hand off the ball for free to the other side so they can stroll in uncontested and score a free goal . Who would turn on that channel and watch ? No one ! It's no longer a sport !

^^^ and that's the part that upsets me when I see these questions as to why it's not ok . Did none of you ever play a sport ever in your life ? Did you never at least witness one ?! PVP is a competition just like any sport .

Sport ? Where does it say ESO is a sport ? ESO is a game, not a sport.
If some see it as a sport, fine, but not everyone has to.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the keep flipping issue, I think this is a blatant demonstration of the cultural difference between Europe (cooperative) and (North?) America (competitive).

You're right . Sportsmanship is probably why no one NA PC got banned

Turelus

I don't think we need to make it an NA/EU issue. There were still NA bans on console and Jessica said it happened on NA PC just not to the extreme of PC EU.

DRXHarbinger

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

LilySix wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll try to explain why PVP players get upset at illegitimate farming of AP .

Motifs , Jewelry and five piece gear sets take work and time to afford legitimately . The price is high on a lot of these things because they are not easy to accumulate . For those that dedicated their time to fighting in order to EARN these rewards , it's the number one source of income for them . Some of them miss out on PVE rewards and crafting opportunities in order to dedicate enough time to PVP to earn these high priced items .

AP farmers that organize and just let their friends take everything drive the value down . Their gains can't be matched honestly and that's just the PVP economic side . I'm not even touching how this effects competition , titles and achievements .

Believe it or not there are some Emps still around that worked their tale off for that title just to see it spit on by farmers .

Sports ! Imagine a professional football game where you watch each team hand off the ball for free to the other side so they can stroll in uncontested and score a free goal . Who would turn on that channel and watch ? No one ! It's no longer a sport !

^^^ and that's the part that upsets me when I see these questions as to why it's not ok . Did none of you ever play a sport ever in your life ? Did you never at least witness one ?! PVP is a competition just like any sport .

Reassure you I am aware of all this. I am currently working on the VDSA very seriously. But I do not compare it to a sport. The Esport does not exist on TESO, the only way to make the money is to make videos for fans and newbies in order to spread your knowledge and ask for donations.

What people are looking for on the high scores and rankings is to be famous, recognize by other players, a "social status", a notoriety (calls it whatever you want). And often it is also a personal challenge, a challenge we set ourselves.

If a guy passes in front of you on the boards and if it is clear that he cheated (and everything is known someday in teso), he has nothing to gain except to discredit and make a fool of himself. So I do not see why I would get sick for guys like that.

I have a goal to achieve and nothing will make me deviate from this objective. It does not deserve a second of my time, it's the problem of zenimax and rageous.

In my opinion this is how a top-level sportsman must think

No . Some people play just for the sport itself . No money , no fame , no leader board , just the competition . Some people like ME . I don't YouTube PVP or stream or get paid . I very much care about the integrity of the game still . I do make money off rewards to balance the cost of PVP but not for big profits . I give crafting friends Akiviri pieces when I can afford to . The sport and fair competition are what I care about in PVP and I don't appreciate those that do not . If they get removed or suspended it is to maintain the sport of PVP .

In that case ganking is good sport. I play it for the hunt and sport of it all. So by that everyone needs to stop the crying over ganking business.

Also bear in mind these 100 or so people probably pay a combined 10k a year into playing the game. Start banning huge numbers of people and you'll just *** them off amd hurt the game. But in all honestly launch a double ap event for a week what do you expect? And it's not like that has been going on from day 1 and killed the game long term has it?

Guess eso has gone to play as you want...so long as it doesn't (again) upset the pvp crowd.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

I don't think we need to make it an NA/EU issue. There were still NA bans on console and Jessica said it happened on NA PC just not to the extreme of PC EU.

Wasn't the meaning of my comment at all. Just a cultural difference.

BigBragg

Turelus wrote: »

As for ZOS waiting and giving them more rope, yeah it's a great rope they got, one could even say a five star rope. They even got to keep that rope after the suspensions are up.

I don't actually get what you mean by this. Didn't they remove all ill gotten gains from the accounts, or was it just the APPLE but they kept anything bought with it?

Turelus

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

LilySix wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll try to explain why PVP players get upset at illegitimate farming of AP .

Motifs , Jewelry and five piece gear sets take work and time to afford legitimately . The price is high on a lot of these things because they are not easy to accumulate . For those that dedicated their time to fighting in order to EARN these rewards , it's the number one source of income for them . Some of them miss out on PVE rewards and crafting opportunities in order to dedicate enough time to PVP to earn these high priced items .

AP farmers that organize and just let their friends take everything drive the value down . Their gains can't be matched honestly and that's just the PVP economic side . I'm not even touching how this effects competition , titles and achievements .

Believe it or not there are some Emps still around that worked their tale off for that title just to see it spit on by farmers .

Sports ! Imagine a professional football game where you watch each team hand off the ball for free to the other side so they can stroll in uncontested and score a free goal . Who would turn on that channel and watch ? No one ! It's no longer a sport !

^^^ and that's the part that upsets me when I see these questions as to why it's not ok . Did none of you ever play a sport ever in your life ? Did you never at least witness one ?! PVP is a competition just like any sport .

Reassure you I am aware of all this. I am currently working on the VDSA very seriously. But I do not compare it to a sport. The Esport does not exist on TESO, the only way to make the money is to make videos for fans and newbies in order to spread your knowledge and ask for donations.

What people are looking for on the high scores and rankings is to be famous, recognize by other players, a "social status", a notoriety (calls it whatever you want). And often it is also a personal challenge, a challenge we set ourselves.

If a guy passes in front of you on the boards and if it is clear that he cheated (and everything is known someday in teso), he has nothing to gain except to discredit and make a fool of himself. So I do not see why I would get sick for guys like that.

I have a goal to achieve and nothing will make me deviate from this objective. It does not deserve a second of my time, it's the problem of zenimax and rageous.

In my opinion this is how a top-level sportsman must think

No . Some people play just for the sport itself . No money , no fame , no leader board , just the competition . Some people like ME . I don't YouTube PVP or stream or get paid . I very much care about the integrity of the game still . I do make money off rewards to balance the cost of PVP but not for big profits . I give crafting friends Akiviri pieces when I can afford to . The sport and fair competition are what I care about in PVP and I don't appreciate those that do not . If they get removed or suspended it is to maintain the sport of PVP .

In that case ganking is good sport. I play it for the hunt and sport of it all. So by that everyone needs to stop the crying over ganking business.

Also bear in mind these 100 or so people probably pay a combined 10k a year into playing the game. Start banning huge numbers of people and you'll just *** them off amd hurt the game. But in all honestly launch a double ap event for a week what do you expect? And it's not like that has been going on from day 1 and killed the game long term has it?

Guess eso has gone to play as you want...so long as it doesn't (again) upset the pvp crowd.

I disagree with bans hurting the game. Other smaller games have done massive ban waves for things and never hurt the game, it only goes to make the company and the games integrity seems stronger.
I would say not banning cheats/exploits and stamping out the botting issues is doing more harm for ESO than banning those people ever would.

DisgracefulMind

Turelus wrote: »

I don't think we need to make it an NA/EU issue. There were still NA bans on console and Jessica said it happened on NA PC just not to the extreme of PC EU.

Barely happened on PC/NA. I saw guilds go and shut down people trying to do it.

And lol at this thread. I think the punishments were well deserved.

Turelus

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't think we need to make it an NA/EU issue. There were still NA bans on console and Jessica said it happened on NA PC just not to the extreme of PC EU.

Barely happened on PC/NA. I saw guilds go and shut down people trying to do it.

And lol at this thread. I think the punishments were well deserved.

It was shut down on EU as well, just there were not players willing to stay up all night for it. Most of the abuse happened from 00:00 - 08:00 in the morning. I was having to get up at 04:00 on work days to hop on and join them, after two days of that and posting the data I gave up. It wasn't who I am as a gamer and it was messing with my work life.

DisgracefulMind

Turelus wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't think we need to make it an NA/EU issue. There were still NA bans on console and Jessica said it happened on NA PC just not to the extreme of PC EU.

Barely happened on PC/NA. I saw guilds go and shut down people trying to do it.

And lol at this thread. I think the punishments were well deserved.

It was shut down on EU as well, just there were not players willing to stay up all night for it. Most of the abuse happened from 00:00 - 08:00 in the morning. I was having to get up at 04:00 on work days to hop on and join them, after two days of that and posting the data I gave up. It wasn't who I am as a gamer and it was messing with my work life.

I think most of PC/NA was more focused on fighting over oticks on our main server tbh =P

But for some reason it was a very, very small issue for us. I don't know if that's a population issue or what, but it was quite sad hearing about what was happening on PC/EU. I'm glad ZoS issued the bans.

Rickter

OP - thats why they got a three day ban which is a laughable slap on the wrist.

If i was head of ZOS decision making not a single person would have experienced an account ban. Instead AvA ranks stripped to tyro, AP taken, All AvA Achievements WIPED and let them do the walk of shame for the rest of their ESO career

LilySix

I am not writting that i'm playing for competition aswell ?

It's a yes.

Junipus

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

AnviOfVai

Let the banwave begin.

Turelus

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

Fleshreaper

When you say, "Hey, we are keep flipping with X alliance", in group chat then yeah, you are kind of busted. They can go back and check group text chats. Which is probably why it has taken so long. Searching through billions of texts, finding the players that are usually in on that. Possible reason why some players are not in on the ban and probably should be is that they came in after the group was already formed and already flipping keeps, ZoS giving them the benefit of the doubt. Another possible text to search might be, "Looking for keep flipping group". Yeah, the probably drew a line in the sand and said, anyone found to be looking for keep flipping group more than 20 in week is getting the ban hammer.

Rohamad_Ali

Turelus wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

In the future I would advise that if you have to ask , don't do it until they say it's ok . That's what I got from that line in Jessica's post .

Crafts_Many_Boxes

This actually reminds me a lot of a situation in another MMO I used to play very frequently. A new raid was released, and it was discovered that, as long as the boss was continuously kited around the room, it was unable to actually do its basic attack. Also, ads that spawned could be continuously cc'd very easily until they despawned, making the fight much more forgiving / easier in terms of dps requirements and such. There were a few other unintended things you could do to make things easier in the fight, but I can't recall. It's been almost a year now.

Anyway, one of the top raiding guilds in the game beat the boss on the hardest difficulty while employing some of these methods. This was when the raid first came out, and these "creative maneuvers" were just coming to light. They claimed that most of it hadn't been intentional, and to their credit they tried contacting the devs about it (they had a personal line to them because of their fame) because they weren't sure if it was "kosher" or not. Thing is, these guys raided Aussie times, so none of the devs were awake.

Later, one of the devs watched their livestream, and everyone in that raid group was perma-banned. For the record, nobody hacked the game. Nobody botted. They just POSSIBLY took advantage of mistakes made by the fight's designers. Needless to say, what was left of that guild wound up dissolving shortly after, but what always bothered me was that so many agreed with them getting banned. IMO if the game allows for it, it isn't exploiting. Banning players over mistakes made in development is just silly and childish, regardless of the game or any other context.

I think it's the same thing here, from what I understand. Does the game allow for it? Do you, as a developer, regret that you made the game allow for it? Then don't ban / punish for it, correct it and move on.

Junipus

Fleshreaper wrote: »

When you say, "Hey, we are keep flipping with X alliance", in group chat then yeah, you are kind of busted. They can go back and check group text chats. Which is probably why it has taken so long. Searching through billions of texts, finding the players that are usually in on that. Possible reason why some players are not in on the ban and probably should be is that they came in after the group was already formed and already flipping keeps, ZoS giving them the benefit of the doubt. Another possible text to search might be, "Looking for keep flipping group". Yeah, the probably drew a line in the sand and said, anyone found to be looking for keep flipping group more than 20 in week is getting the ban hammer.

I would surmise it's more likely due to them having to decide on what course of action to take. They've determined who's done it by monitoring their AP gains during the course of the event and/or any days before they changed the AP values for outposts. This is what allowed them to determine the worst offenders and ban then, with the likely delay being filtering out those worst offenders, deciding what course of action to take, deciding how many to ban and then deciding on a punishment and ensuring they could deliver that punishment.

LilySix

@Crafts_Many_Boxes you talk truth !

You just said what I wanted to say.

Turelus

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

In the future I would advise that if you have to ask , don't do it until they say it's ok . That's what I got from that line in Jessica's post .

Which is why I personally didn't apart from two morning where I gathered data on what was being done and posted it in the thread.
However it still frustrates me that with everything going on and all the questions no one at ZOS had an answer until a month later.

Junipus

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

In the future I would advise that if you have to ask , don't do it until they say it's ok . That's what I got from that line in Jessica's post .

That is the gist of her post and that line, however the issue is if they say it's ok and everyone and their Khajiit have been doing whatever issue it is for weeks and have an advantage. People are going to feel justifiably angry and frustrated with ZOS if they stay on the side of ultra honest while there's nothing but silence only to be told they're now behind those who chanced it. It's very easy for those on the fence to then decide that rather than stay honest they'll take advantage of the next grey area issue so they're not left behind, only to be caught out when ZOS give another bout of silence followed by an arbitrary ruling.

Also any good company with even basic policies wouldn't treat this issue like a Dirty Harry quote.

Rohamad_Ali

Turelus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

In the future I would advise that if you have to ask , don't do it until they say it's ok . That's what I got from that line in Jessica's post .

Which is why I personally didn't apart from two morning where I gathered data on what was being done and posted it in the thread.
However it still frustrates me that with everything going on and all the questions no one at ZOS had an answer until a month later.

Zoos has always been this way . Remember the bugged Salvation set and just recently the bugged AP tics at Black Boot . They don't warn people . They just ban when they get around too it . This is why I don't do anything questionable . I like my accounts . I don't need anything in a video game so bad I feel the need to test the waters with ZOS .

An there are people still perma banned from this game . They don't let everyone go . I still hear conversation from people saying they can never get their old account back . Even a year later . ZoS just doesn't confirm this with the community . You take the risk on all questionable activities . An that is why she says at the end of that post "better yet , don't try it at all." .

For me and some others these things are common sense . Call it cultural differences or what have you but the mind set to some of us is alien . PVP zone means player vs player zone . Not coop faction zone . Not share rewards with Friendamies zone . We just don't get the confusion at all .

Turelus

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dark_Aether wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

A game feature has been updated and players use it in a manner in which it was not designed to work to get ahead of others. It may not be specifically in the ToS but that sounds like the definition of exploiting to me.

Excerpts from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom s thread Cyrodiil cheating exploits and you .

ZOS_JessicaFolsomZOS_JessicaFolsom
admin
Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom on August 1, 2016 11:03AM
Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
Facebook | Twitter | Google+ | Tumblr | Pinterest | YouTube | Support #1
July 2016
Staff Post

Except not one part of that mentions anything so grey area as keep flipping.

The problem is, was and always will be, ZOS' inconsistency and poor communication. Their

In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

doesn't really work if some people decide it's cheating, others decide it's not and gain an advantage with ZOS finally coming out and saying "it's not cheating, we don't care". This leads to people trying their luck with all sorts of things and gaining an advantage if it's arbitrarily ruled in their favour.

Agreed. It's fine and all falling back on a line like that, but when your community is actively asking you then someone somewhere in the company should be able to make a call and post it.

In the future I would advise that if you have to ask , don't do it until they say it's ok . That's what I got from that line in Jessica's post .

Which is why I personally didn't apart from two morning where I gathered data on what was being done and posted it in the thread.
However it still frustrates me that with everything going on and all the questions no one at ZOS had an answer until a month later.

Zoos has always been this way . Remember the bugged Salvation set and just recently the bugged AP tics at Black Boot . They don't warn people . They just ban when they get around too it . This is why I don't do anything questionable . I like my accounts . I don't need anything in a video game so bad I feel the need to test the waters with ZOS .

An there are people still perma banned from this game . They don't let everyone go . I still hear conversation from people saying they can never get their old account back . Even a year later . ZoS just doesn't confirm this with the community . You take the risk on all questionable activities . An that is why she says at the end of that post "better yet , don't try it at all." .

For me and some others these things are common sense . Call it cultural differences or what have you but the mind set to some of us is alien . PVP zone means player vs player zone . Not coop faction zone . Not share rewards with Friendamies zone . We just don't get the confusion at all .

I agree with you and I avoid exploits as much as I can myself.

However I was (am) also growing tired of not doing it for the moral high road, then seeing everyone who did do it walk away free with all the benefits.

Thankfully this time it wasn't the case.

DMuehlhausen

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

Right, but stuff like this is always viewed as exploits by the companies. It's not how the game/mechanic was designed. Basically ask yourself this question. If I was designing this game how do I want people to fairly play? If there is anything outside of that it will be viewed as exploit and not intended by the company and you can get in trouble for doing it.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Sports ! Imagine a professional football game where you watch each team hand off the ball for free to the other side so they can stroll in uncontested and score a free goal . Who would turn on that channel and watch ? No one ! It's no longer a sport !

^^^ and that's the part that upsets me when I see these questions as to why it's not ok . Did none of you ever play a sport ever in your life ? Did you never at least witness one ?! PVP is a competition just like any sport .

Sport ? Where does it say ESO is a sport ? ESO is a game, not a sport.
If some see it as a sport, fine, but not everyone has to.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the keep flipping issue, I think this is a blatant demonstration of the cultural difference between Europe (cooperative) and (North?) America (competitive).

I'm not from America, I assure you ;P As are many other people who didn't like that farm.

That aside, the idea of PvP is fighting other players. That's the base, core and heart of it. You can argue idea of PvE is RP, lore, immersion, housing, flower sniffing or whatever, but PvP if you choose to partake in it is and/or should be just that - Player versus Player. Which, yes, kind of implies competition, which is part of the reason why a lot of people don't like it. That's okay and perfectly understandable - long as they don't go into PvP land and try to turn it into...I'm not even sure how to call it. PvAP?

LilySix

@Magdalina Should we really sniff plants in PVE ?? Sounds great ! Haha

PvE is a competition... A competition in which we have two challengers. Trials in themselves and other guilds. PVP players stop believing that all PVE players are RPs and they do not like the competition ...

Going back home to do some flower sniffing :P

Turelus

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Everyone had the opportunity to read this and accept the terms correct?

However technically speaking (and why everyone kept asking and debating) this wasn't an exploit so not against the ToS it was just players organising to farm a mechanic.

That's where the key issue with this lies and why ZOS only did the temp bans it seems.

Right, but stuff like this is always viewed as exploits by the companies. It's not how the game/mechanic was designed. Basically ask yourself this question. If I was designing this game how do I want people to fairly play? If there is anything outside of that it will be viewed as exploit and not intended by the company and you can get in trouble for doing it.

Everything else like this though they've not banned for, this is the first time they've taken real action rather than patching the problem away and moving on.

There have been a lot of thing in PvE and PvP which got abused for weeks until the forums exploded then ZOS fixed it and no action was taken against those who abused it.

Acrolas

ZOS doesn't owe anyone an explanation. They own the game. If they don't like what you're doing with their assets, they have every right to take whatever action they want without prior notice.

If people are too dense to ask themselves, "Am I taking a certain action or behavior too far?" then they deserve a reality check. But I don't think ZOS has taken disciplinary action on anything that the average person wouldn't feel a little bit of guilt over getting away with. If something feels too rewarding, it probably is. If something feels a little wrong, it probably is.

Worry about you. Don't worry about other people. Like Mordo said in Doctor Strange, the bill comes due.

JKorr

redspecter23 wrote: »

There is a large grey area here and ZOS has unfortunately set a precedent with this action against cross faction coordination. It could be argued that resource flipping is not an exploit but just a mathematical AP gaining tactic. It's clearly not the intent of the game to do so, but it's up to ZOS to let us know intent, especially when asked about it while it's actively taking place. The intent is clear now after the fact and many players have been punished for it. How does this judgement factor into future "coordinated cross faction" efforts? As a DC group, if I see EP and AD fighting, can I join in? Or will it be seen as cross faction coordination by one or even both sides? There are potential tactical advantages to be had here and AP to be gained. Is it a matter of the rate of AP gain combined with coordinated cross faction alliances? If the TOS violation was in fact the cross faction coordination aspect, then players need a very clear answer from ZOS about what sort of cross faction play is ok and what's not, because it could lead to large groups of players banned out of nowhere sometime in the near future for reasons only to be fully explained after the fact.

Joining in on one side or another of a fight is one thing; temporary alliance, clear out one group before fighting the other, whatever. Not a concerted effort to use an exploit to farm AP.

Watching the colors flip back and forth for one keep on the map between the same two factions over and over is a different thing. This isn't "cross faction alliance" to cooperate towards a goal of gaining territory or defending your area of the map. This is exploiting the game mechanic to farm AP, coordinated between two factions for cheating/exploiting reasons alone.

Kiralyn2000

What I don't get is why anyone would have even had to "ask if this was a exploit". Of course it is! Win-trading has been disapproved of in every competitive endeavor, ever. Certainly in every PvP/MP game that I've ever come across. There's not enough eyeroll in the world for me to react to the people trying to defend this.


(re: "sport" Ok, change all those to "competition", which is what PvP is.)