lock out vet dungeons under 160 cp

Lynx7386

Really starting to get aggravated queuing into a veteran dungeon only to see cp50-100 guys who have no idea what the mechanics are and can't pull over 5k dps.

Veteran dungeons need to be restricted until after 160 champion points. Anyone under that should be running normal to get a handle on the dungeons before jumping into harder content. Nobody wants to take 20 minutes killing a boss because the dps are wearing blue underwhelming gear and don't know what they're doing.

Syntse

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

Kammakazi

elitism

IronCrystal

I would not argue that they need to be 160 because they will suddenly be better at 160, but honestly selfishly it would be really nice if going into a vet dungeon guaranteed all drops were max level.

Lynx7386

It isn't elitism. Prior to 160, you are underlevel. The veteran dungeons were designed for Mac level players. You might get by on some, but many are literally impossible with subpar damage, healing, or tanking.

At <160cp, your gear is going to be holding you back. Not only that, it holds back everyone else. How often do people join a dungeon group and see someone looking for certain set pieces? If a sub 160 player is in the group, nothing they loot is usable by the rest.

It takes very little time to grind past the 160 point. New 50's get 4.8 million rested xp right off the bat. If you can't be bothered to grind out a few levels before tackling what is essentially endgame content, don't be surprised if nobody wants to take the time to deal with you.

There is no reason for anyone under 160 to run vet dungeons anyhow, you're not going to use any of the gear you get for more than a few levels.

Lynx7386

IronCrystal wrote: »

I would not argue that they need to be 160 because they will suddenly be better at 160, but honestly selfishly it would be really nice if going into a vet dungeon guaranteed all drops were max level.

Exactly

Marabornwingrion

I was many times in vet dungeons with 300-400CP people who also had no idea what they were doing, so I'm not sure if it will fix the problem. But having all group members with at least 160CP would be better, cause all loot would be max level.

LordGavus

Locking low CP players out of vet dungeons isn't the answer. I, along with everyone else, have experienced the Max or high CP clueless players.

What needs to be in place is some sort of test/tutorial you have to clear before being allowed to enter vet dungeons.

Quick undaunted missions would work.
To queue as a dps you have to kill a target in a specific time while dodging some red.

For healers, keep some npcs alive for a set time while dodging red.

For tanks, use taunts to control some adds while interrupting and blocking attacks.

Instead of blocking players, we need to be training them.

Syntse

Farming gear in vet dungeons and being able to swap with people in the group is different thing than complaining someone doing poor dps and not knowing what they are doing.

Might be that they just want to complete the dungeon or get the skillpoint from it and not bothered about the gear at that point. "No you cannot do that because other members of your party cannot use your loot if you manage to get some good drops."

You want fast runs with people who know what they do and swap drops if manage to get something good. Run with guild.

Lynx7386

Syntse wrote: »

Might be that they just want to complete the dungeon or get the skillpoint from it and not bothered about the gear at that point. "No you cannot do that because other members of your party cannot use your loot if you manage to get some good drops."

If they're after the dungeon Completion and skill point, both can be gotten on normal mode. You can also get a key on normal mode for the undaunted chests.

There's no reason to be hindering a vet dungeon group when all of that can be done on normal.

idk

I have seen CP capped players that played worse than many of the low CP players I have come across. CP may increase damage but if the player does not know what to do it does not really matter if they can allot 1000 CP.

Further, I can carry a group through most vet dungeons so do not see much of a reason to set vet dungeons to be a higher level than they have been all along.

Last, no one needs to group with anyone below a CP level they choose. The game does not require it. If one chooses to use GF, that is their choice, but the lose the right to choose the CP level of those they dungeon with that time.

So if you do not want to run dungeons with low CP players the solution is extremely simple, do not use GF to find the group. Form up the group your self.

DRXHarbinger

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It isn't elitism. Prior to 160, you are underlevel. The veteran dungeons were designed for Mac level players. You might get by on some, but many are literally impossible with subpar damage, healing, or tanking.

At <160cp, your gear is going to be holding you back. Not only that, it holds back everyone else. How often do people join a dungeon group and see someone looking for certain set pieces? If a sub 160 player is in the group, nothing they loot is usable by the rest.

It takes very little time to grind past the 160 point. New 50's get 4.8 million rested xp right off the bat. If you can't be bothered to grind out a few levels before tackling what is essentially endgame content, don't be surprised if nobody wants to take the time to deal with you.

There is no reason for anyone under 160 to run vet dungeons anyhow, you're not going to use any of the gear you get for more than a few levels.

No they weren't. Sept 15 barely anyone had 160 cp when prison and wgt dropped and we struggled through it in a few weeks.

Issue is all these xp events people are going from the store to YouTube seeing this crappy skyreach grind and doing absolutely nothing else but that amd expecting everything else to be as easy. I'd love to know what gear some of these idiots are running or where they get these "builds" from. I successfully pugged vICP yesterday morning...after talking down the 2 hero magdks in heavy armor using bow and lit staff noxious breath and burning embers lol. I made them go outside and respect whilst I waited at the abomination. Although if this game was slightly more intuitive it'd probably do better. I had to come here as a scrub and ask what the point in cyrodiil was at launch as I couldn't find anything to do.

Plus we have all been there and seen that some cp600 players are just plain awful.

Turelus

*raises his hand*

What if the player gets C160 in only overland world questing, wears medium armour and is a magicka DPS? Your filter doesn't stop them joining you.

Maybe we should add a series of questions to the group queue when you queue, to check each players general understanding of the games mechanics? Although I guess then we would face the issue of someone posting all the answers online and everyone just cheating.

Damn... if only there was some way OP could get a group which matched his exact desires for a dungeon run, but we don't have chat features or guilds to form groups from in this game...

Sibenice

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

Of course not! But nor do we expect people who are below CP 160 to be able to pull that much because they're not max level yet. The barrier is currently level 50. With your argument why not just remove that? There's not a whole lot of difference between a scaled level 40 and a CP50. It's not about guaranteeing the perfect group it's about moving it to the level where you should reasonably be before you even start them due to the dps needed and difficulty increase from normal. Having max level gear makes a difference.

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

greylox

If they gave some sort of quick guide before a dungeon telling you the mechanics then people wouldn't have to waste time telling them.

Turelus

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

LadyLavina

Yes please. 160 isn't some kind of magic number that makes people a god vs 159, but for the more difficult content that should really be a bare minimum req.

Lieblingsjunge

I've seen a CP804 spam Aurora Javelin for DPS. With a 2h-weapon. In veteran Banished Cells II. (Not that the dungeon is hard or anything, or not solo-able.. but just to make an example).

So uh, CP doesn't really make any difference, however, it would be nice if all drops were CP160 ye.

Sibenice

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

Turelus

Sibenice wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

But they don't require that gear level. Maybe the DLC ones because of having harder mechanics and having been made around the "all damage" meta, but the older content in vet mode was designed for VR1-VR10.

Again, I am pretty sure a group of skilled and knowledged C10 to C100 players could clear all of the original veteran content, the issues isn't about CP or gear level it's about knowledge of game mechanics.

ZOS runs around shouting "play the way you want" but in reality the game doesn't work like that. You need to know how skill damage scales, what sets give useful benefits, that you should be using sets to start with etc.
The game doesn't teach players any of this and they're constantly kicked or have people run from their groups because they're meant to hit 20k DPS without any understanding of why or how.

Sibenice

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

But they don't require that gear level. Maybe the DLC ones because of having harder mechanics and having been made around the "all damage" meta, but the older content in vet mode was designed for VR1-VR10.

Again, I am pretty sure a group of skilled and knowledged C10 to C100 players could clear all of the original veteran content, the issues isn't about CP or gear level it's about knowledge of game mechanics.

ZOS runs around shouting "play the way you want" but in reality the game doesn't work like that. You need to know how skill damage scales, what sets give useful benefits, that you should be using sets to start with etc.
The game doesn't teach players any of this and they're constantly kicked or have people run from their groups because they're meant to hit 20k DPS without any understanding of why or how.

That was pre-scaling. The dungeons have now all been scaled up to CP 160 level, aka vet16. You can't compare how they did things before the scaling system.

They could, yes. And just like with current stuff they'd still be able to walk in. What's being discussed here is a more reasonable barrier to entry for random groups. You know, where you don't know how skilled and knowledgeable people. As a pre-CP160 character you need the skill, knowledge, build set up, etc to be good enough for all but the easiest ones. At CP 160 you at least have access to max level gear which provides a cushion and allows for lower skill. That's the point in having barriers at all in random content. The idea would be to increase the chance for random idiots to be able to clear vet dungeons. Not to lock out your oh so skilled CP50 alt account.

The game not teaching you what you need to know before jumping into high level group content is a completely different issue and not really one I've seen solved in any MMO.

kongkim

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It isn't elitism. Prior to 160, you are underlevel. The veteran dungeons were designed for Mac level players. You might get by on some, but many are literally impossible with subpar damage, healing, or tanking.

At <160cp, your gear is going to be holding you back. Not only that, it holds back everyone else. How often do people join a dungeon group and see someone looking for certain set pieces? If a sub 160 player is in the group, nothing they loot is usable by the rest.

It takes very little time to grind past the 160 point. New 50's get 4.8 million rested xp right off the bat. If you can't be bothered to grind out a few levels before tackling what is essentially endgame content, don't be surprised if nobody wants to take the time to deal with you.

There is no reason for anyone under 160 to run vet dungeons anyhow, you're not going to use any of the gear you get for more than a few levels.

You say its not elitsm. Im cp500 something can i join you with my bow bow healer build?

LordGavus

Sibenice wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

The gear cap sounds good but won't necessarily work. I've known players that were past cap but still using sub 100 gear because it was a set.

It would be nice if all drops in the dungeon were at gear cap, but honestly I would prefer if all players in vet dungeons had a good understanding of their role and there were some checks in place to make sure they could perform it effectively.

Sibenice

LordGavus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

The gear cap sounds good but won't necessarily work. I've known players that were past cap but still using sub 100 gear because it was a set.

It would be nice if all drops in the dungeon were at gear cap, but honestly I would prefer if all players in vet dungeons had a good understanding of their role and there were some checks in place to make sure they could perform it effectively.

Well of course. There's bad players at every level and I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. This sort of barrier doesn't fix people, it just helps with the chance of getting grouped with people who are ready for them.

Another barrier that I personally think would be a good idea is the requirement of having completed the dungeons and quest on normal mode before being able to access the dungeon on vet.

EvilCroc

The only thing we need - not allow to do veteran dungeon until normal version of it will be completed. This is sooo much fun to see people in veteran mazzatun with "I'm first time here". Go do your normal run, man.
And disable dungeon loot sharing. [snip]

[Edit to remove inappropriate comment.

LordGavus

Sibenice wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

It would just make far more sense to put the barrier at the true max level rather than the level where you stop gaining skill points.

Then we would just get "lock out vet dungeons under 300 CP" as thread titles.

The problem is nothing to do with CP, it's to do with players who don't know game mechanics, the current meta or how to min/max their damage. The game doesn't explain any of that to a player, they have to either be told by someone* or read up online.

Are you going to say that if I had a C40 character with all my knowledge of the game I wouldn't be able to do good enough to clear the content with other skilled players?

* They never get told because everyone runs from them or kicks them from groups.

You're clearly not getting it. If someone says it should be locked out at 300 that doesn't make any sense because it's just an arbitrary number.

CP 160 is the max level for gear. That's why it makes sense as the cut off for vet dungeons. It is the true max level outside of the CP points themselves.

It's not about individual skill. It's not about where you feel the number should be. It's about limiting the hardest dungeons to those at the max gear level.

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

The gear cap sounds good but won't necessarily work. I've known players that were past cap but still using sub 100 gear because it was a set.

It would be nice if all drops in the dungeon were at gear cap, but honestly I would prefer if all players in vet dungeons had a good understanding of their role and there were some checks in place to make sure they could perform it effectively.

Well of course. There's bad players at every level and I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. This sort of barrier doesn't fix people, it just helps with the chance of getting grouped with people who are ready for them.

Another barrier that I personally think would be a good idea is the requirement of having completed the dungeons and quest on normal mode before being able to access the dungeon on vet.

I agree on completing normal before vet.

Increasing the chance of getting grouped with prepared and capable players is why I think the tutorial/check option is better than gear cap.

That way we are almost guaranteed a decent dps, healer that can heal and a tank with taunts that won't fold immediately.
The lock out would be based on having to perform minimum requirements. This would probably mean you would need a good gear setup anyway.

KingYogi415

Any gear they get is worthless to themselves and others.

Just dead weight!

Horowonnoe

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Really starting to get aggravated queuing into a veteran dungeon only to see cp50-100 guys who have no idea what the mechanics are and can't pull over 5k dps.

Veteran dungeons need to be restricted until after 160 champion points. Anyone under that should be running normal to get a handle on the dungeons before jumping into harder content. Nobody wants to take 20 minutes killing a boss because the dps are wearing blue underwhelming gear and don't know what they're doing.

Dude no. Dungeons are not trials. Dungeons are so people can LEARN.
I could make many examples, but... all i will say is, that i have met many people in vet dungeons who have needed help. I have helped quite a few of them and let's just say, some of those people are now topping the leaderboards in trials. I think everyone deserves a chance.

SilentRaven1972

LordGavus wrote: »

The gear cap sounds good but won't necessarily work. I've known players that were past cap but still using sub 100 gear because it was a set.

It would be nice if all drops in the dungeon were at gear cap, but honestly I would prefer if all players in vet dungeons had a good understanding of their role and there were some checks in place to make sure they could perform it effectively.

The only way the players will know is if they learn. Unfortunately, even telling someone the mechanics isn't always going to help,,,Some need to experience it. I never really messed with dungeons or pledges until recently. One, because of the gear cap, as I would want max gear for the effort. Two, because I was afraid I would let everyone down. I was fortunate enough to find a small group that lets me run with them. I still don't think I'm very good (I'm over CP500), but they say I do well, and they have helped me learn a few things. I'm still trying to figure out all the sets and what will work for my play style, but it's nice that someone is willing to give me info, if they know, and do things in a way that helps.

Until others take the time to teach, it's just going to be a clusterjumble no matter how high the CP. I had a friend recently start playing, but he rushed content and leveled through dolmens, delves and a rare quest or two. He's burned out for the moment, but is close to the CP cap, but still hasn't learned to stay out of stupid, and doesn't really listen to helpful advice. Granted, I've been caught standing in stupid as well, but I do try to get out of it I don't know much, but am trying to teach what I can. That is all that anyone can do to try to make things a touch better. Beyond that, you need a guild with people you know or hand pick people from zone.

raidentenshu_ESO

Syntse wrote: »

And they will never learn what to do if they are just kicked out from groups or restricted to content until certain cp. You think that once someone is cp160 they magically know what to do and put out minimal of 20k dps?

Low level CPs can learn the mechanics of the dungeon on normal settings, not on vet. You need to start from A to B and then to C. You don't start from C to A. It doesn't make any sense. Why would you go on a veteran dungeon without knowing the basic? That you can't even pull at least 15k DPS?

This is why this game is unpleasant. ZOS made the mistake of allowing low level CPs to participate in veteran dungeons. This is why I (A capped level) don't queue in for vet dungeons due to this very mistake that ZOS needs to fix.

Cherryblossom

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Really starting to get aggravated queuing into a veteran dungeon only to see cp50-100 guys who have no idea what the mechanics are and can't pull over 5k dps.

Veteran dungeons need to be restricted until after 160 champion points. Anyone under that should be running normal to get a handle on the dungeons before jumping into harder content. Nobody wants to take 20 minutes killing a boss because the dps are wearing blue underwhelming gear and don't know what they're doing.

done plenty of Vet Dungeons with low CP under powered peopled, only occassionally do I get some that are really bad, but I get ones with 600cp who are just as bad.