The answer to the op heals we have in cyro that make people unkillable

Asardes

LordSlif wrote: »

Stamplayers can dodge magplayere dn't lol

#NerfMageblade

LordSlif

Asardes wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

Stamplayers can dodge magplayere dn't lol

#NerfMageblade

Dont.

LordSlif

NBs have some problems dont need be nerfflollol

danno8

Cathexis wrote: »

Why are any non dot heals instant cast???
If you can drop a heal to full there should be at least a half second time to interrupt.

That's is in my mind at least one way to introduce counterplay to endless healspam.

There is a cast time mega heal in Templar tree that heals up to 6 friends for like 10k. No one uses it. DoT heals are hardly a disadvantage in this game. They are proactive, not reactive and using them at full health is useful since you can go offensive while they are ticking. If there was a magicka version of Vigor I would take it over BoL for PvP.

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Honestly, @Minno - in regards to block - I would love to see fully charged heavy attacks stagger blocking targets, with the addition that heavy attacks would be bashable and maybe only the melee ones would stagger.

I don't think I would like ranged stagger because then you can just make heavy attack troll stagger build from miles away - no risk and full reward. But in melee range you would be open to risk at least (ie. bashed).

The stagger effect already is in-game (dark adds wobbly orbs on twins in Maw, for example), it would just need to be attached to heavies.
You would have a counter to perma block, but be exposed to being bashed/interrupted so the other person has a counter too (while it would still drain their stam to do so).

We have an armor pen stat. Add a block pen stat that we can stack with armor and jewelry sets. Done. Block is nerfed for PVP but not for PVE (because monsters won't be wearing those sets). A DPS built to penetrate 40% of block is going to take a block tank down, but sacrifices something else. Sustain. Damage. Crit.

Damage Shields only need for the two big ones to be unstackable.

I have no idea what to do with healing other than reducing up front heal numbers, and adding cast times for bigger heals.

Dropping shuffle to 6-8 seconds is probably all that dodge roll needs. There are already so many AOE and undodgable attacks to choose from. It's not like Block or a double shield stack.

Templars already do extra dmg on blocked enemies, it's a shame every dmg ability we own doesn't stack up to the burst versatility of a sorc or the raw dmg of a NB. Plus this templar passive does a small percentage (like 10%) so why bother? At block, if my dmg does 300 I get a puny 30 extras points? Absurd considering how much dmg block actually reduces lol. The passive should be a flat value, considering you can get an easy 50% dmg reduction by pressing the right mouse button.

God, sometimes I forget how bad Templar passives are.

technohic

LordSlif wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

All I know is keep these nerf calls to CP stuff. Majority of the so called OP stuff I just don't see in Azuras.

CP must be nerfflol lol

Nothing funny about it but it's where the problem lies when you don't see the issue without CP.

A direct nerf probably is a bad idea as it affects PVE but adding a counter in for attacking another player would not.

LordSlif

technohic wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

All I know is keep these nerf calls to CP stuff. Majority of the so called OP stuff I just don't see in Azuras.

CP must be nerfflol lol

Nothing funny about it but it's where the problem lies when you don't see the issue without CP.

A direct nerf probably is a bad idea as it affects PVE but adding a counter in for attacking another player would not.

Cp can be nerff only in PvP its not a problem

LordSlif

danno8 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Why are any non dot heals instant cast???
If you can drop a heal to full there should be at least a half second time to interrupt.

That's is in my mind at least one way to introduce counterplay to endless healspam.

There is a cast time mega heal in Templar tree that heals up to 6 friends for like 10k. No one uses it. DoT heals are hardly a disadvantage in this game. They are proactive, not reactive and using them at full health is useful since you can go offensive while they are ticking. If there was a magicka version of Vigor I would take it over BoL for PvP.

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Honestly, @Minno - in regards to block - I would love to see fully charged heavy attacks stagger blocking targets, with the addition that heavy attacks would be bashable and maybe only the melee ones would stagger.

I don't think I would like ranged stagger because then you can just make heavy attack troll stagger build from miles away - no risk and full reward. But in melee range you would be open to risk at least (ie. bashed).

The stagger effect already is in-game (dark adds wobbly orbs on twins in Maw, for example), it would just need to be attached to heavies.
You would have a counter to perma block, but be exposed to being bashed/interrupted so the other person has a counter too (while it would still drain their stam to do so).

We have an armor pen stat. Add a block pen stat that we can stack with armor and jewelry sets. Done. Block is nerfed for PVP but not for PVE (because monsters won't be wearing those sets). A DPS built to penetrate 40% of block is going to take a block tank down, but sacrifices something else. Sustain. Damage. Crit.

Damage Shields only need for the two big ones to be unstackable.

I have no idea what to do with healing other than reducing up front heal numbers, and adding cast times for bigger heals.

Dropping shuffle to 6-8 seconds is probably all that dodge roll needs. There are already so many AOE and undodgable attacks to choose from. It's not like Block or a double shield stack.

Templars already do extra dmg on blocked enemies, it's a shame every dmg ability we own doesn't stack up to the burst versatility of a sorc or the raw dmg of a NB. Plus this templar passive does a small percentage (like 10%) so why bother? At block, if my dmg does 300 I get a puny 30 extras points? Absurd considering how much dmg block actually reduces lol. The passive should be a flat value, considering you can get an easy 50% dmg reduction by pressing the right mouse button.

God, sometimes I forget how bad Templar passives are.

Passives and skills as solar barrage, total dark, healing ritual... poor templar

br0steen

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Edit: the power creep is definitely due to CP. So spot on with that assessment. Damage and healing will both increase everytime CP does.

LordSlif

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Some classes need be buffed as templars solo

KingJ

LordSlif wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Some classes need be buffed as templars solo

Templar well magplar isn't a solo class. Its not a class designed to be played solo. Its the healer class for a reason healers are group specs. Templars suck solo but strongest class in a group just adding 1 person to a fight with a templar and you see the templar shine. You can't buff magplar solo because it will make them even stronger in groups.

Everyone already hate full raids of templars it would just get worst.

Minno

KingJ wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Some classes need be buffed as templars solo

Templar well magplar isn't a solo class. Its not a class designed to be played solo. Its the healer class for a reason healers are group specs. Templars suck solo but strongest class in a group just adding 1 person to a fight with a templar and you see the templar shine. You can't buff magplar solo because it will make them even stronger in groups.

Everyone already hate full raids of templars it would just get worst.

It's not unreasonable to have the expectation that any class should have the ability to solo/group. I expect any class to do enough damage to perform individually and mitigate that dmg enough to run by themselves as well as offer group benefits.

Case in point, the mag class tool kit might suggest more healing, but I should be able to find what I need elsewhere to perform as a magplar solo. Granted I won't be the very top teir slot when compared to a sorc/nb, but I shouldn't be forced to reroll because the only reliably viable PvP spells for a Templar is his healing.

There currently are gear options, and I've explored them. Still, having flex slot on the skill bar with nothing to fill it because most of the templar toolkit is buggy or too situational outside of group play is very frustrating. Even the staff options can be lackluster in the options they provide.

KingJ

Minno wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Some classes need be buffed as templars solo

Templar well magplar isn't a solo class. Its not a class designed to be played solo. Its the healer class for a reason healers are group specs. Templars suck solo but strongest class in a group just adding 1 person to a fight with a templar and you see the templar shine. You can't buff magplar solo because it will make them even stronger in groups.

Everyone already hate full raids of templars it would just get worst.

It's not unreasonable to have the expectation that any class should have the ability to solo/group. I expect any class to do enough damage to perform individually and mitigate that dmg enough to run by themselves as well as offer group benefits.

Case in point, the mag class tool kit might suggest more healing, but I should be able to find what I need elsewhere to perform as a magplar solo. Granted I won't be the very top teir slot when compared to a sorc/nb, but I shouldn't be forced to reroll because the only reliably viable PvP spells for a Templar is his healing.

There currently are gear options, and I've explored them. Still, having flex slot on the skill bar with nothing to fill it because most of the templar toolkit is buggy or too situational outside of group play is very frustrating. Even the staff options can be lackluster in the options they provide.

I'm not saying templar shouldn't be able to play solo I should have word it better let me say this. They would need to buff templars in a certain way that doesn't make them even stronger in group play.

Drdeath20

This entire thread sounds like a L2P issue

br0steen

Drdeath20 wrote: »

This entire thread sounds like a L2P issue

Basically

Minno

KingJ wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Some classes need be buffed as templars solo

Templar well magplar isn't a solo class. Its not a class designed to be played solo. Its the healer class for a reason healers are group specs. Templars suck solo but strongest class in a group just adding 1 person to a fight with a templar and you see the templar shine. You can't buff magplar solo because it will make them even stronger in groups.

Everyone already hate full raids of templars it would just get worst.

It's not unreasonable to have the expectation that any class should have the ability to solo/group. I expect any class to do enough damage to perform individually and mitigate that dmg enough to run by themselves as well as offer group benefits.

Case in point, the mag class tool kit might suggest more healing, but I should be able to find what I need elsewhere to perform as a magplar solo. Granted I won't be the very top teir slot when compared to a sorc/nb, but I shouldn't be forced to reroll because the only reliably viable PvP spells for a Templar is his healing.

There currently are gear options, and I've explored them. Still, having flex slot on the skill bar with nothing to fill it because most of the templar toolkit is buggy or too situational outside of group play is very frustrating. Even the staff options can be lackluster in the options they provide.

I'm not saying templar shouldn't be able to play solo I should have word it better let me say this. They would need to buff templars in a certain way that doesn't make them even stronger in group play.

I can agree to that!! Thanks for clearing that up!

LeifErickson

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed

The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.

I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.

There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.

You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.

There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.

Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.

I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.

A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.

Maybe, but that's not what he said. That's a different topic. And as someone who has played since Beta, I can say there always been "unkillable" builds, and I'm not just referring to MurderThumbs playing his broken DK back at Launch. I've seen Krim tank over a dozen players at Alessia Bridge with his NB sap tank back before soft-caps were a thing. I would sign up for a 1.5 server in a second if ever offered, but let's not be overly nostalgic that ESO was somehow more complex and that ridiculous builds weren't possible back then.

Can any scrub tank and heal in PvP? Maybe true, but let's not pretend that these same scrubs can't just watch one of Alcast's videos, put on the current BiS gear, add Velidreth/Viper for good measure, and pour outs tons of damage. And let's not even get into the destro ultimate. This game is bear & pretzels. It's not supposed to be in-depth or hardcore. Whether that's tanking, healing, or DPS. Or is DPS supposed to be easy and healing hard? Or is being DPS somehow more "skillful"? I'm sure these players put a lot of practice in spamming Dizzying Swing and then Executioner when their add-on screams to them "Execute Now!"

You have taken fear and meteors CCs in the face with 6 people banging on you because you are a very good player with a good build. The vast majority of the PvP community dies under those circumstances, CP or no. Dies very quickly too. Are you suggesting that you, too, should die in those circumstances? You want to make that scenario more difficult for the 1 rather than the 6?

Something else to consider. Maybe these scrubs that you used to destroy actually got better? Or maybe they reevaluated their builds after said destruction because they didn't want to get insta-killed again because that's too easy as well.

ZoS has catered much more often to DPS and made survival more difficult; dodge-roll fatigue, streak cost increase, breath of life nerfs, block stopping regeneration, chipping away at AoE caps, siege buffs, Rapid Maneuver and other assorted speed nerfs. Players who small-scale complain, rightly so IMHO, that the cumulative effect of these changes have made it noticeably more difficult and more frustrating to fight outnumbered. You and others can keep telling ZoS it's so easy to make an unkillable build till the cows come home. Just don't be surprised or mad when they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult and empower zergs even more because you asked for it.

I should have died in that situation. I am not skilled because I survived. If someone runs out of stam with 6 people on them and takes a cc, they should die.

Also, if they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult, let's just say in this case they nerf heavy armor to the ground so everyone only runs medium or light, that will make solo and small scale waaaaay easier. It is so much easier to win a 1v4 for example if you are in medium and everyone else is in medium than if you are in heavy and everyone else is in heavy.

Wreuntzylla

This is truly a max burst thread. Sure, stacking 70% of heal debuffs without using Fasalla's can be effective. But it's so much more fun to watch players jump into a fight like a boss and then suddenly drop all defenses and try to run while snared.

Are poisons cheap? Maybe. But fight fire with fire and stop leaving tears in every other thread.

Mojomonkeyman

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed

The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.

I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.

There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.

You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.

There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.

Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.

I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.

A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.

Maybe, but that's not what he said. That's a different topic. And as someone who has played since Beta, I can say there always been "unkillable" builds, and I'm not just referring to MurderThumbs playing his broken DK back at Launch. I've seen Krim tank over a dozen players at Alessia Bridge with his NB sap tank back before soft-caps were a thing. I would sign up for a 1.5 server in a second if ever offered, but let's not be overly nostalgic that ESO was somehow more complex and that ridiculous builds weren't possible back then.

Can any scrub tank and heal in PvP? Maybe true, but let's not pretend that these same scrubs can't just watch one of Alcast's videos, put on the current BiS gear, add Velidreth/Viper for good measure, and pour outs tons of damage. And let's not even get into the destro ultimate. This game is bear & pretzels. It's not supposed to be in-depth or hardcore. Whether that's tanking, healing, or DPS. Or is DPS supposed to be easy and healing hard? Or is being DPS somehow more "skillful"? I'm sure these players put a lot of practice in spamming Dizzying Swing and then Executioner when their add-on screams to them "Execute Now!"

You have taken fear and meteors CCs in the face with 6 people banging on you because you are a very good player with a good build. The vast majority of the PvP community dies under those circumstances, CP or no. Dies very quickly too. Are you suggesting that you, too, should die in those circumstances? You want to make that scenario more difficult for the 1 rather than the 6?

Something else to consider. Maybe these scrubs that you used to destroy actually got better? Or maybe they reevaluated their builds after said destruction because they didn't want to get insta-killed again because that's too easy as well.

ZoS has catered much more often to DPS and made survival more difficult; dodge-roll fatigue, streak cost increase, breath of life nerfs, block stopping regeneration, chipping away at AoE caps, siege buffs, Rapid Maneuver and other assorted speed nerfs. Players who small-scale complain, rightly so IMHO, that the cumulative effect of these changes have made it noticeably more difficult and more frustrating to fight outnumbered. You and others can keep telling ZoS it's so easy to make an unkillable build till the cows come home. Just don't be surprised or mad when they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult and empower zergs even more because you asked for it.

I should have died in that situation. I am not skilled because I survived. If someone runs out of stam with 6 people on them and takes a cc, they should die.

Also, if they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult, let's just say in this case they nerf heavy armor to the ground so everyone only runs medium or light, that will make solo and small scale waaaaay easier. It is so much easier to win a 1v4 for example if you are in medium and everyone else is in medium than if you are in heavy and everyone else is in heavy.

Yeah, but we had that medium all damage party already in 1.6 and that was the most [snip] up playing experience ever. It made me quit the game for almost a year. Everything was totally outta control damage wise.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

br0steen wrote: »

Its really simple, target their resources. Everyone hates poisons but lets be real, they definitely level the playing field against builds like what OP describes.

Cp changes coming up are going to make resource management more difficult. So there's a sort of nerf right there.

You can throw a negate at the player and perma root him as well. Root spamming doesn't seem to be going away.

There is counter play to reactive armor. They aren't "unkillable". Usually when someone complains like this really its really them just saying "I noticed x prevented me from killing someone, it must be broken".

Edit: the power creep is definitely due to CP. So spot on with that assessment. Damage and healing will both increase everytime CP does.

I personally love using the poison that immobilizes for 3.5 seconds and increases cost of stamina abilities. Great pot to destroy someone's stamina.

Jynxe

Why don't we nerf everything down to just fist fighting ffs.

Stratforge

Give BoL the Streak treatment.

Baconlad

Lol..."can cast BOL over and over without any risk" yeah a bone stock skill that in heavy armor costs 4500 magick. With 100 in reduced cost its still 3500 magick. I would have to go full regen build and full blessed with drinks to offset the loss of magick im losing. BoL is not that great, i dont know why everyones throwing abshit fit about it when a STAM DK with vigor and two handed heal can outheal me while still dealing damage to my ass. Atleast when a magplar is casting BOL he cant do anything other than cast it. Keep pressuring him, hell go oom, then *** him up. Works everytime. Strong pressure is not liked by magplars. Its why we run mistform and mist away when we get too much inc damage.

BTW not complaining about vigor and two handed heal, theyre ok

But templar heals are reactive, while everyone else gets to be passive in their defense. Now...lets get on board with a BOL HOT morph instead of HTD

Minalan

Baconlad wrote: »

Lol..."can cast BOL over and over without any risk" yeah a bone stock skill that in heavy armor costs 4500 magick. With 100 in reduced cost its still 3500 magick. I would have to go full regen build and full blessed with drinks to offset the loss of magick im losing. BoL is not that great, i dont know why everyones throwing abshit fit about it when a STAM DK with vigor and two handed heal can outheal me while still dealing damage to my ass. Atleast when a magplar is casting BOL he cant do anything other than cast it. Keep pressuring him, hell go oom, then *** him up. Works everytime. Strong pressure is not liked by magplars. Its why we run mistform and mist away when we get too much inc damage.

BTW not complaining about vigor and two handed heal, theyre ok

But templar heals are reactive, while everyone else gets to be passive in their defense. Now...lets get on board with a BOL HOT morph instead of HTD

This pretty much. With Magician CP gone completely next patch, BoL is going to cost 4500 again.

That's enough of a nerf.

On top of that elfborn and precise CP won't apply to healing anymore. So you can't crit a heal as easy, and the crit heal amount is going to be terrible without the 25% bonus:

Jsmalls

Minalan wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Lol..."can cast BOL over and over without any risk" yeah a bone stock skill that in heavy armor costs 4500 magick. With 100 in reduced cost its still 3500 magick. I would have to go full regen build and full blessed with drinks to offset the loss of magick im losing. BoL is not that great, i dont know why everyones throwing abshit fit about it when a STAM DK with vigor and two handed heal can outheal me while still dealing damage to my ass. Atleast when a magplar is casting BOL he cant do anything other than cast it. Keep pressuring him, hell go oom, then *** him up. Works everytime. Strong pressure is not liked by magplars. Its why we run mistform and mist away when we get too much inc damage.

BTW not complaining about vigor and two handed heal, theyre ok

But templar heals are reactive, while everyone else gets to be passive in their defense. Now...lets get on board with a BOL HOT morph instead of HTD

This pretty much. With Magician CP gone completely next patch, BoL is going to cost 4500 again.

That's enough of a nerf.

On top of that elfborn and precise CP won't apply to healing anymore. So you can't crit a heal as easy, and the crit heal amount is going to be terrible without the 25% bonus:

@Minalan I haven't seen the removal of elfborn affecting crit heal, mind sending me the source.

Also I'm hoping the cost reduction does help stop these heavy armored Magplar healer/tanks, but what if they just stack a bit more recovery and still persist... Losing 400 spell damage for "x" amount of recovery won't kill them, then 100 points into blessed will still effectively work for them... Players always find a way, but I'm with @Lord_MK that this issue needs to be addressed. You shouldn't​ have a player that can't be killed because they are a tank and healer keeping the entire rest of the group alive. It gives little to no counter play against it. Perhaps with the warden's easily applied defile we will see a difference but we shouldn't be depending on one classes one ability to deal with these situations...

Minalan

Jsmalls wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Lol..."can cast BOL over and over without any risk" yeah a bone stock skill that in heavy armor costs 4500 magick. With 100 in reduced cost its still 3500 magick. I would have to go full regen build and full blessed with drinks to offset the loss of magick im losing. BoL is not that great, i dont know why everyones throwing abshit fit about it when a STAM DK with vigor and two handed heal can outheal me while still dealing damage to my ass. Atleast when a magplar is casting BOL he cant do anything other than cast it. Keep pressuring him, hell go oom, then *** him up. Works everytime. Strong pressure is not liked by magplars. Its why we run mistform and mist away when we get too much inc damage.

BTW not complaining about vigor and two handed heal, theyre ok

But templar heals are reactive, while everyone else gets to be passive in their defense. Now...lets get on board with a BOL HOT morph instead of HTD

This pretty much. With Magician CP gone completely next patch, BoL is going to cost 4500 again.

That's enough of a nerf.

On top of that elfborn and precise CP won't apply to healing anymore. So you can't crit a heal as easy, and the crit heal amount is going to be terrible without the 25% bonus:

@Minalan I haven't seen the removal of elfborn affecting crit heal, mind sending me the source.

Also I'm hoping the cost reduction does help stop these heavy armored Magplar healer/tanks, but what if they just stack a bit more recovery and still persist... Losing 400 spell damage for "x" amount of recovery won't kill them, then 100 points into blessed will still effectively work for them... Players always find a way, but I'm with @Lord_MK that this issue needs to be addressed. You shouldn't​ have a player that can't be killed because they are a tank and healer keeping the entire rest of the group alive. It gives little to no counter play against it. Perhaps with the warden's easily applied defile we will see a difference but we shouldn't be depending on one classes one ability to deal with these situations...

I wish I had the source, it was someone talking about how precise and elfborn changed at PAX. They only apply to actual damage done, and are specific to Magicka/Stamina.

You can see precise strikes here:
https://m.imgur.com/a/KS9mP#rBB48CB

If I'm wrong here, please correct me.

Jsmalls

@Minalan
No it was just the first I heard it, but I've been really busy this week so I've missed a lot.

I always keep my elfborn high for my crit surge heals, guess I'll have to put a few in blessed.

olsborg

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed

The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.

I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.

There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.

You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.

There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.

Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.

I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.

A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.

Maybe, but that's not what he said. That's a different topic. And as someone who has played since Beta, I can say there always been "unkillable" builds, and I'm not just referring to MurderThumbs playing his broken DK back at Launch. I've seen Krim tank over a dozen players at Alessia Bridge with his NB sap tank back before soft-caps were a thing. I would sign up for a 1.5 server in a second if ever offered, but let's not be overly nostalgic that ESO was somehow more complex and that ridiculous builds weren't possible back then.

Can any scrub tank and heal in PvP? Maybe true, but let's not pretend that these same scrubs can't just watch one of Alcast's videos, put on the current BiS gear, add Velidreth/Viper for good measure, and pour outs tons of damage. And let's not even get into the destro ultimate. This game is bear & pretzels. It's not supposed to be in-depth or hardcore. Whether that's tanking, healing, or DPS. Or is DPS supposed to be easy and healing hard? Or is being DPS somehow more "skillful"? I'm sure these players put a lot of practice in spamming Dizzying Swing and then Executioner when their add-on screams to them "Execute Now!"

You have taken fear and meteors CCs in the face with 6 people banging on you because you are a very good player with a good build. The vast majority of the PvP community dies under those circumstances, CP or no. Dies very quickly too. Are you suggesting that you, too, should die in those circumstances? You want to make that scenario more difficult for the 1 rather than the 6?

Something else to consider. Maybe these scrubs that you used to destroy actually got better? Or maybe they reevaluated their builds after said destruction because they didn't want to get insta-killed again because that's too easy as well.

ZoS has catered much more often to DPS and made survival more difficult; dodge-roll fatigue, streak cost increase, breath of life nerfs, block stopping regeneration, chipping away at AoE caps, siege buffs, Rapid Maneuver and other assorted speed nerfs. Players who small-scale complain, rightly so IMHO, that the cumulative effect of these changes have made it noticeably more difficult and more frustrating to fight outnumbered. You and others can keep telling ZoS it's so easy to make an unkillable build till the cows come home. Just don't be surprised or mad when they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult and empower zergs even more because you asked for it.

I should have died in that situation. I am not skilled because I survived. If someone runs out of stam with 6 people on them and takes a cc, they should die.

Also, if they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult, let's just say in this case they nerf heavy armor to the ground so everyone only runs medium or light, that will make solo and small scale waaaaay easier. It is so much easier to win a 1v4 for example if you are in medium and everyone else is in medium than if you are in heavy and everyone else is in heavy.

Yeah, but we had that medium all damage party already in 1.6 and that was the most [snip] up playing experience ever. It made me quit the game for almost a year. Everything was totally outta control damage wise.

Yes true, but now we have this heavy armor meta where heavy armor builds can actually outshine medium/light armor builds damagewise, Im not overly fond of that at all. I do hope they nerf the dmg cp too somewhat, with all the new op sets introduced with 1T dmg got kinda high again.

TheBonesXXX

Good, its about time those proc set meta wanks have something to cry about.

Hutch679

LordSlif wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Remove shuffle.

Dont need this. Stamplayers can dodge, break free, shuffle and now are complaining about cleanse lol. If they have this we can have cleanse too

Remove dodge from everything besides dodge-roll.