The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The answer to the op heals we have in cyro that make people unkillable
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bubbygink✭✭✭✭✭My issue is that a person can be the tankiest one on the battlefield while also keeping an entire group up with heals. In my opinion there needs to be some sort of tradeoff here. A trollplar shouldn't be nearly as tanky as a stam DK tank while also being able to output big heals.
I agree with @Ron_Burgundy_79 that the gear sets are huge factor but I don't think it is limited to just a few sets but rather heavy armor in general. It is the heavy armor, sword and board magplars that become an issue. They can block forever (thanks to constitution and possiblely sets like black rose), are super tanky, yet thanks to blessed can still heal their groups like crazy. I don't think I've ever seen anyone complaining about light armor magplars - they output great heals and can keep their groups up but are actually killable by less than about 4 people. It is the heavy armor reactive/black rose + malu/troll king sword and board healers that are the issue.
Ultimately I think it is a combination of what MK and Ron have both said in this thread: blessed allows magplars to totally ignore sets that would directly increase their healing for tankier, heavy armor sets like reactive yet still be able to output huge heals. This combo makes them OP. Perhaps a solution would be to utilize Morning Kush's idea of removing blessed from the CP tree and then placing an increased healing done passive on the light and/or medium armor lines (which only applies when wearing 5+) to make up for it. Just a spur of the moment idea which wouldn't hurt PvE (PvE healers run light, right?) and would eliminate the heavy armor, permablock, healer trollplars from PvP by forcing them to either go light armor or focus on healer sets if they wanted to get big heals.
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NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LeifErickson wrote: »A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.
And yet there are numerous one shot builds available and are easy to acquire.
The problem is at both ends of the spectrum. When someone takes a single 32k Onslaught or 28k heavy inferno staff attack or 27k overload light attack, telling them the problem is they are too tanky is going to be met with skepticism.
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Sureshawt✭✭✭✭Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed
Agreed. I never understood why blessed scaled differently from befoul.
However, I feel the whole CP system is poorly thought out and has a decidedly negative impact on balance. This price to have some additional form of character advancement is too high for me and so I will play on the non-CP campaign.0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Ohh cool but yea adding back the old cloak will help a lot but that alone will not fix the major issue which currently is with sets. @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler need to balance sets.Some of these sets are just broken combined with CP is a serious issue.@Lord_MK Are you Morning Kush?
Personally I don't agree with removing blessed. Maybe cutting it down to 15% instead of completely removing it. As a stamnb without major mending we need as many healing buffs we can stack.
Yes I am. And I agree that it would *** NB really hard but what I feel the NB needs back honestly is the old dark cloak. Would make it pretty balanced imo
Also one morph of cloak should give major vitality if they won't fix cloak allow me to heal like the other classes.0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Kush still best NB Xbox NA I don't know anyone on xbox who wouldn't say he top tier of console.
I agree with @Minalan the fixes are simple but the forum warriors will do anything to keep there cheese following.LeifErickson wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed
The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.
I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.
There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.
You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.
There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.
Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.
I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.
A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.
^^^ This. Sure you can ignore that unkillable guy, until he's standing on a flag, or tearing up your siege. The fact is he shouldn't exist. I'm not saying "OMG DPS should be able to one shot everyone DUHHHH." I'm saying 30 minute 1v1 fights with no winner suck. I've had no less than three this week. Maybe we should be able to settle it in ten minutes or so?
The problem is block, shield stacking, and too much healing. The fixes are simple, but the forum warriors won't ever accept it. Everyone thinks that OTHER guy's only defense needs a nerf. They all do.
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Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
Lol
Yeah
My point is that in the CP trees damage, critical damage, dot damage, and penetration can be directly countered by other cp trees . There is a shield counter too. But I can't crit a heal debuff, now can I ?Terethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Metemsycosis wrote: »Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
Lol
Yeah
My point is that in the CP trees damage, critical damage, dot damage, and penetration can be directly countered by other cp trees . There is a shield counter too. But I can't crit a heal debuff, now can I ?
Maybe that's why impen traits originally also reduced friendly crit heals? We should bring that back
Edited by Minno on March 28, 2017 10:04PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
LeifErickson✭✭✭✭✭
✭Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
You know full well that's not fair. A magplar can survive way longer than a sorc in an upfront fight and can do way better heals than the sorc. And everything you listed off benefits a magplar as well. Sorc shields are great, but they do not scale the same as the average Cyrodiil magplar when outnumbered or outnumbering.3 -
LeifErickson✭✭✭✭✭
✭LeifErickson wrote: »A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.
And yet there are numerous one shot builds available and are easy to acquire.
The problem is at both ends of the spectrum. When someone takes a single 32k Onslaught or 28k heavy inferno staff attack or 27k overload light attack, telling them the problem is they are too tanky is going to be met with skepticism.
I agree. Doesn't change the fact that what I said was true.0 -
Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭LeifErickson wrote: »Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
You know full well that's not fair. A magplar can survive way longer than a sorc in an upfront fight and can do way better heals than the sorc. And everything you listed off benefits a magplar as well. Sorc shields are great, but they do not scale the same as the average Cyrodiil magplar when outnumbered or outnumbering.
Well It'd damn well be that sorc wouldn't also have the most OP heals on top of insane shield stack or that would be broken AF.
Also - surviving longer ≠ winning an engagement. You have way better tools at your disposal to pick your fights as a sorc. So yeah - I don't see why you would compare the two.0 -
Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭Metemsycosis wrote: »Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
Lol
Yeah
My point is that in the CP trees damage, critical damage, dot damage, and penetration can be directly countered by other cp trees . There is a shield counter too. But I can't crit a heal debuff, now can I ?
Maybe that's why impen traits originally also reduced friendly crit heals? We should bring that back
Something about that makes sense, I admit.Terethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile0 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭LeifErickson wrote: »Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
You know full well that's not fair. A magplar can survive way longer than a sorc in an upfront fight and can do way better heals than the sorc. And everything you listed off benefits a magplar as well. Sorc shields are great, but they do not scale the same as the average Cyrodiil magplar when outnumbered or outnumbering.
Well It'd damn well be that sorc wouldn't also have the most OP heals on top of insane shield stack or that would be broken AF.
Also - surviving longer ≠ winning an engagement. You have way better tools at your disposal to pick your fights as a sorc. So yeah - I don't see why you would compare the two.
Not sure why you are trying to turn this into a nerf sorc thread when we are talking unkillable healers. Do you do that often?
Anyway, the other part of the unkillable healer is blocking. If Battle Spirit would reduce the effectiveness of block cost reduction in some way, that would go a long way to mitigating that cancer.
So the we go, a more effective heal debuff and less ability to reduce the cost of blocking in PvP. Cancer is Cured!0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BoL isnt problem itself. Extended ritual is. Purging 5 negative effects and applying major mending with 1 button not mentioning about small HoT and slowing enemies? It takes much more time to apply that 5 debuffs then taking them off. Ritual shouldnt atleast purge poisons because it's stupid there is whole posions mechanic , many formulas and debuffs and 1 class can just bypass it completly with 1 skill and then add another skill that will counter whole dmg done in few seconds with 1 click. Nerfing 1 of those 2 skills could bring ballance. It could be done by cutting base value of BoL or lowering number of effects purged by extended ritual.1 -
Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »LeifErickson wrote: »Metemsycosis wrote: »It's a 3v1
Blessed, elfborn, quick recovery
Vs
Befoul
It's a 3v1
Bastion, Hardy/ele defender, Pirate Skeleton, Undeath, + Elfborn + Blessed + Quick Recovery (potentially) on Resto ult cross heal and cross bubbles, etc.
vs???
Shield Breaker?
You know full well that's not fair. A magplar can survive way longer than a sorc in an upfront fight and can do way better heals than the sorc. And everything you listed off benefits a magplar as well. Sorc shields are great, but they do not scale the same as the average Cyrodiil magplar when outnumbered or outnumbering.
Well It'd damn well be that sorc wouldn't also have the most OP heals on top of insane shield stack or that would be broken AF.
Also - surviving longer ≠ winning an engagement. You have way better tools at your disposal to pick your fights as a sorc. So yeah - I don't see why you would compare the two.
Not sure why you are trying to turn this into a nerf sorc thread when we are talking unkillable healers. Do you do that often?
Anyway, the other part of the unkillable healer is blocking. If Battle Spirit would reduce the effectiveness of block cost reduction in some way, that would go a long way to mitigating that cancer.
So the we go, a more effective heal debuff and less ability to reduce the cost of blocking in PvP. Cancer is Cured!
I am not trying to turn it into that, lol, don't get so triggered.
I also mentioned that I think blocking is part of the issue - I don't see you saying that I'm asking for blocking nerfs.
Also it's a discussion forum and I'm discussing the points made in regards to how strong certain things are, in my opinion.
It is not up to you to tell me what I can and cannot discuss or answer to.
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reading through I can list:
1. Healing is too strong - either class specific abilities and/or CP related
2. Blocking is too strong - not through class or CPs, simply put 50% damage reduction at that cost is too powerful
3. Sets are too strong - either through damage reduction (seems to be the primary concern, here, now) or resource control
4. Burst damage is too strong - incap, eots, onslaught, whip, etc etc when someone can still deal 11k through full heavy and impen mitigation we have a problem
So in conclusion we have: damage too high, class abilities unbalanced, heals too powerful, sets unbalanced, universal abilities unbalanced...
Um is there anything else even left in the game? (Doesn't seem like we can really point to any one thing... outside of those whom have made such decisions that lead us here...)
And none of this is my opinion, just pointing out what has been said and agreed to0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Kush still best NB Xbox NA I don't know anyone on xbox who wouldn't say he top tier of console.
I agree with @Minalan the fixes are simple but the forum warriors will do anything to keep there cheese following.LeifErickson wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed
The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.
I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.
There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.
You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.
There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.
Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.
I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.
A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.
^^^ This. Sure you can ignore that unkillable guy, until he's standing on a flag, or tearing up your siege. The fact is he shouldn't exist. I'm not saying "OMG DPS should be able to one shot everyone DUHHHH." I'm saying 30 minute 1v1 fights with no winner suck. I've had no less than three this week. Maybe we should be able to settle it in ten minutes or so?
The problem is block, shield stacking, and too much healing. The fixes are simple, but the forum warriors won't ever accept it. Everyone thinks that OTHER guy's only defense needs a nerf. They all do.
Some of these might be terrible but my thoughts:
Shuffle- last 6 seconds to match shields. Or reduces cost of dodge roll when slotted only.
Dampen magicka - remove increase strength on LA pieces. Grant a stat
Dodge roll - grants chance similar to shuffle to miss not 100% miss on all attacks.
Bol - reduce initial heal by 20% (with around 2.5sd and 35k mag it will hit for 10135. Critting that heal will be beast especially if you use it at low health.). Spread that BoL effective design across the entire resto line.
Dk - their heal should reward low health use to pull them out of execute range not return them to full bar (same for BoL).
Shields - has shield breaker and a CP star dedicated to getting extra dmg. They could tweak how much that star gives you? They could also allow "defile" to also effect the value of your enemies shields. Healing ward should not grant a shield on you, unless you specifically choose that morph that does no healing
-Block- not sure of a fix. They could add flavors of s+b similar to how it works with destro staff. For example:
1)sword + board gives extra dmg. But reduced block mitigation +stamina drain on block.
2)axe + board gives you bleed potential on attackers using block. Reduced block mitigation + increased Stam drain
3)mace + shield increases penetration on your attacks. Or they can have a chance to proc a minor maim. Keeps block mitigation + original Stam drain.
4)dagger + shield would give you additional crit resistance. Keeps block mitigation and original Stam drain.
Maybe this will give options for pve that work better than in PvP, increases build diversity, and reduces the important of block if looking to add dmg.
-Healing- make impen reduce heal crits. Devalues impen as BIS, reduces effectiveness of random healers from running around spamming spells. Additional Defile sources required. Remove awful Fasalles Cheese set.
-make crushing shock reflective again? Class abilities should have one ability that isn't reflective, one that isn't dodged, one that helps defile, one that helps go through block, etc? The weapon lines should not have this flexibility, they should be about adding additional ways to deal damage? This requires to much work so maybe not.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭i wouldnt nerf healing at all. Overall damage is quite high and there is crazy burst potential with different setups. as long as damage can be that spiky, healing should be just as high.
removing some of the sustainability seems like a good idea, though. not only for healers, but also for damage dealers.
personally, i think the removal of the cost reduce CPs is a good idea for pvp.
overall, in a 1vs1 scenario, given both players have the same skill/gear/CPs:
tanks/healers should not be able to do enough damage to kill a damage dealer.
damage dealers should not be able to do enough damage to kill a tank/healer.
damage dealers should be able to blow up other damage dealers.
tanks/healers should just move along if they see other tanks/healers.
this ensures every role has a valid place in the meta.
healers are a valuable asset to every group, because they can outheal a damage dealer to buy some time for their own damage dealers to focus and burst specific targets.
tanks can take the pressure off their healers/damage dealers and depending on the skills chosen, support their group or just get whacked on by damage dealers that don't realize they are hitting a tank.
damage dealers can, you guessed it, deal damage, and if smart enough, focus down specific targets in a team effort, because no healing can keep up with a huge amount of instant damage.
Edited by Dragath on March 29, 2017 12:06AM0 -
Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, @Minno - in regards to block - I would love to see fully charged heavy attacks stagger blocking targets, with the addition that heavy attacks would be bashable and maybe only the melee ones would stagger.
I don't think I would like ranged stagger because then you can just make heavy attack troll stagger build from miles away - no risk and full reward. But in melee range you would be open to risk at least (ie. bashed).
The stagger effect already is in-game (dark adds wobbly orbs on twins in Maw, for example), it would just need to be attached to heavies.
You would have a counter to perma block, but be exposed to being bashed/interrupted so the other person has a counter too (while it would still drain their stam to do so).1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, @Minno - in regards to block - I would love to see fully charged heavy attacks stagger blocking targets, with the addition that heavy attacks would be bashable and maybe only the melee ones would stagger.
I don't think I would like ranged stagger because then you can just make heavy attack troll stagger build from miles away - no risk and full reward. But in melee range you would be open to risk at least (ie. bashed).
The stagger effect already is in-game (dark adds wobbly orbs on twins in Maw, for example), it would just need to be attached to heavies.
You would have a counter to perma block, but be exposed to being bashed/interrupted so the other person has a counter too (while it would still drain their stam to do so).
We have an armor pen stat. Add a block pen stat that we can stack with armor and jewelry sets. Done. Block is nerfed for PVP but not for PVE (because monsters won't be wearing those sets). A DPS built to penetrate 40% of block is going to take a block tank down, but sacrifices something else. Sustain. Damage. Crit.
Damage Shields only need for the two big ones to be unstackable.
I have no idea what to do with healing other than reducing up front heal numbers, and adding cast times for bigger heals.
Dropping shuffle to 6-8 seconds is probably all that dodge roll needs. There are already so many AOE and undodgable attacks to choose from. It's not like Block or a double shield stack.Edited by Minalan on March 29, 2017 12:16AM0 -
zuto40✭✭✭✭✭Mess with the block mechanics and break these permablock healbots not blessed please, its the permablock for me that stops me from bursting them down not the healing, i run 87 in it and its the only thing keeping my medium armor stamblade viable in solo open worldEdited by zuto40 on March 29, 2017 1:15AMStamblade- Legate
Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
Magic DK- Corporal
Stam DK- Sergeant
Stamplar- Corporal
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g2 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Burst damage is through the roof too - this is true. But this has less to do with CP and more to do with all the crazy overpowered gear sets and abilities they added. Destro ulti, berserker strike, the new overbuffed Soul Assault, proc sets, and then there's also tons of really overperforming sets they added with One Tamriel that just let people do so much more (often uncounterable) damage.
There's also a bit of this in the survivability side of the equation. Someone spamming Shield Wall or Panacea whenever possible is also really tough to take down and those abilities dont take a lot of effort to use effectively either.
I used to play in Azura's Star until dark brotherhood hit and when I go back there now I cant help but notice how much higher burst damage is compared to back then (and how much more unavoidable), even in a no-CP environment. You tend to feel that when your preferred playstyle is medium armour stam DK...1 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hey OP, from reading your post you seem to be one of the few guys in this community who has actually played balanced, competitive pvp games and took the time to think about what made them good. In comparison the accessibility and power of healing in eso in combination with smart healing is indeed one of the largest core problems in eso if want to build for skillful combat. I fully agree.
But the healing is here to stay, because it is catered to the community this game is made for. Just take this forum, you won`t find enough people experienced enough (speaking about engaging pvp dynamics in general, not eso specific) to even understand where you are coming from. They will write books about so perceived counters (most of them don`t even apply to passive healbots) and point fingers in denial, unable to objectively think the issue through. Not because they are not smart, some of them probably are, but they have no competitive mindset.
It`s the players that is wrong with the game, otherwise they would be open to discuss faulty mechanics.
Regards
Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy2 -
WhiteMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turns out those healbots are not only getting a massive increase to healing power through CP, they are also practically guaranteed a critical hit on them too!The generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?0 -
Asardes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Another "Nerf PvP but primarily hit PvE" thread. I would like it to see how you beat really hard PvE content with tanks and healers who have been deprived of Blessed. And the DDs are usually the ones that croak
Ive played with tanks with such high health and health recovery that they go afk during boss fights and just spam their taunt.
Just saying.
I bet that boss wasn't yelling "thousand cuts" at them while slashing with his axe Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
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Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭I bet that boss wasn't yelling "thousand cuts" at them while slashing with his axe
A thousand cuts, like whispers in the wind!
IDC about Rakkhat - The Warrior is still the most badass raid boss to me. <3_<3
And yeah, good luck healing that with AFK health regen lel.
@Mojomonkeyman - the issue some of us have brought up in regards to topics like these is that usually people don't look at the bigger picture.
It's easy to say - oh people don't want balance while not taking everything into perspective. Which is why I actually don't think it is an easy job for the devs to balance things out, and props to them when they actually manage to work something out.
In the end - everyone is biased - you can deny it all you want but each and every one of us is biased to some extent. Some more than others, but a bias is always there.
I can just as easily counter what you said, saying that people who target certain class/skill are extremely narrow-minded and only see things from the perspective of their spec/class build.
The thing is, it's not that simple - it's all part of a bigger picture and the issues are all around us.
How do you nerf healing on heavy armor troll block builds without gutting other specs? It's not as easy as cut down on healing overall.
It's easy to see biased thing and say - OMG so and so is so OP, pls nerf, but in the end it's on the devs to balance things *and* keep a somewhat pleased pop so that they keep the $$$ flowing.
And I hope they do - or else they would shut down the servers and buh bye ESO.
My issues is when people want a cleaver approach when a scalpel is more suitable, and no-one loves a botched job.Edited by Lore_lai on March 29, 2017 9:49AM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Honestly, @Minno - in regards to block - I would love to see fully charged heavy attacks stagger blocking targets, with the addition that heavy attacks would be bashable and maybe only the melee ones would stagger.
I don't think I would like ranged stagger because then you can just make heavy attack troll stagger build from miles away - no risk and full reward. But in melee range you would be open to risk at least (ie. bashed).
The stagger effect already is in-game (dark adds wobbly orbs on twins in Maw, for example), it would just need to be attached to heavies.
You would have a counter to perma block, but be exposed to being bashed/interrupted so the other person has a counter too (while it would still drain their stam to do so).
I would like a stagger to come back to the game. But locking it behind melee heavy attack would further benefit stamina. Maybe there is a status effect that both ranged/melee can gain without being OP?
In the end, it should be an active skill with a clear animation so we can react to it. The class tool kit should be the defining place for some of these abilities.
Any thoughts on my other points? I tried to make a note on anything related to defensive/healing instead of concentrating on one or two areas, but obviously look forward to any detailed discussion!Edited by Minno on March 29, 2017 2:12PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turns out those healbots are not only getting a massive increase to healing power through CP, they are also practically guaranteed a critical hit on them too!
To me it makes sense to reduce initial healing numbers further with the expectation that crit takes you alot further on healing than with damage. Having that 50% crit chance and Templar extra 10% crit dmg means my 8k BoL will do an easy 60% extra heal. You really can't get that increase any other way. Even with a base 50%, that heal goes along way compared to fighting an enemy in full impen.
In the end, I like risk/reward as a design intent. But being able to instant cast a heal from low health to full is indeed broken. If I am at 1% health, my BoL/Dragons blood should put me back to 40% or 50% health to escape being executed. But I should require a HOT or cast time health to regain the remaining amount.
Currently sorc/NB have a health locked behind either a stat conversation or based on the damage of an enemy (or path of movement). These are more interesting than a straight up instant heal.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As a NB I kinda want the straight up instant heal lol.Turns out those healbots are not only getting a massive increase to healing power through CP, they are also practically guaranteed a critical hit on them too!
To me it makes sense to reduce initial healing numbers further with the expectation that crit takes you alot further on healing than with damage. Having that 50% crit chance and Templar extra 10% crit dmg means my 8k BoL will do an easy 60% extra heal. You really can't get that increase any other way. Even with a base 50%, that heal goes along way compared to fighting an enemy in full impen.
In the end, I like risk/reward as a design intent. But being able to instant cast a heal from low health to full is indeed broken. If I am at 1% health, my BoL/Dragons blood should put me back to 40% or 50% health to escape being executed. But I should require a HOT or cast time health to regain the remaining amount.
Currently sorc/NB have a health locked behind either a stat conversation or based on the damage of an enemy (or path of movement). These are more interesting than a straight up instant heal.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeifErickson wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Since I see many do not agree with me I have proposed something else ? Why not just make befoul more viable in the champion tree ? I come to these forums to make solutions not to tell people they don't know what they're talking about because I feel my build will be nerfed
The thing is we aren't dumb, we aren't noobs, and we aren't just concerned about our own builds.
I don't think you have given enough thought to identifying what you perceive as a problem and I think your proposed solution is overly narrow.
There is more to "invincible builds" than healing. Period. Yet that is the only thing you want to nerf. How in the world is that balanced? In your mind, a templar who casts a 10K breath of life is a cancer, yet the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield is somehow fine. No, sorry. You're oversimplifying. Especially since the game already provides many counters to that templar who casts a 10K breath of life and hardly any for the sorcerer who casts a 10K shield.
You just come across as one of those many many potatoes I see in cyrodiil who spam DPS skills at well known tanks and continue spamming away when it is apparent they aren't dying anytime soon - or are even a threat to your health bar.
There is already a counter in the game to these builds and it has nothing to do with the champion system: use your brain. Walk away from the perma-blocking DK or the reactive Healbot Templar and actually target other players capable of scratching your health bar.
Because most players are DPS and feel entitled to be able to kill stuff - easily apparently - even though damage being out of control, that is not somehow a "cancer" but the ability to mitigate or survive through that damage is. Not too much a bias is there? I run into those "invincible" builds every night I play and I do not have a problem at all with them, even though I am utterly incapable of killing them. I simply move on to what i deem more pressing targets. It's fine. I can't kill them and they can't kill me.
I think his point is that you use to be able to kill anyone in this game solo. Now a solo player can run into a ton of builds that he can never kill by himself. And whether or not you think that's better or worse or balanced, it doesn't change the fact that it's too easy. It's actually *** how easy it is to tank and heal in this game. I have literally taken full fear ccs with 6 people on me and lived through it on a tanky build I use to play. I even purposely took a meteor to the face along with the attacks of all the other people around me because I knew I would be fine.
A pve player at capped cp can come into pvp having never done it before and literally never die. By that I mean it takes no skill. I see more and more scrubs every day that I use to destroy but now they are literally unlikable 1v1. It is just too easy. In order to survive against another player(s), it should be because you are better than them.
Maybe, but that's not what he said. That's a different topic. And as someone who has played since Beta, I can say there always been "unkillable" builds, and I'm not just referring to MurderThumbs playing his broken DK back at Launch. I've seen Krim tank over a dozen players at Alessia Bridge with his NB sap tank back before soft-caps were a thing. I would sign up for a 1.5 server in a second if ever offered, but let's not be overly nostalgic that ESO was somehow more complex and that ridiculous builds weren't possible back then.
Can any scrub tank and heal in PvP? Maybe true, but let's not pretend that these same scrubs can't just watch one of Alcast's videos, put on the current BiS gear, add Velidreth/Viper for good measure, and pour outs tons of damage. And let's not even get into the destro ultimate. This game is bear & pretzels. It's not supposed to be in-depth or hardcore. Whether that's tanking, healing, or DPS. Or is DPS supposed to be easy and healing hard? Or is being DPS somehow more "skillful"? I'm sure these players put a lot of practice in spamming Dizzying Swing and then Executioner when their add-on screams to them "Execute Now!"
You have taken fear and meteors CCs in the face with 6 people banging on you because you are a very good player with a good build. The vast majority of the PvP community dies under those circumstances, CP or no. Dies very quickly too. Are you suggesting that you, too, should die in those circumstances? You want to make that scenario more difficult for the 1 rather than the 6?
Something else to consider. Maybe these scrubs that you used to destroy actually got better? Or maybe they reevaluated their builds after said destruction because they didn't want to get insta-killed again because that's too easy as well.
ZoS has catered much more often to DPS and made survival more difficult; dodge-roll fatigue, streak cost increase, breath of life nerfs, block stopping regeneration, chipping away at AoE caps, siege buffs, Rapid Maneuver and other assorted speed nerfs. Players who small-scale complain, rightly so IMHO, that the cumulative effect of these changes have made it noticeably more difficult and more frustrating to fight outnumbered. You and others can keep telling ZoS it's so easy to make an unkillable build till the cows come home. Just don't be surprised or mad when they make changes that makes surviving in general more difficult and empower zergs even more because you asked for it.
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IMO, CP is the root cause of every complaint in this thread. Most of the well known tank players became speed bumps during no-cp week.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
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V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0