Results of damage testing set combos - Spriggan, Leviathan, Automaton, TBS, VO, Dragr Hulk, Hunding

smithist

Ha, right, duh.

Donmanzullo

Valderis wrote: »

What is your CP breakdown?

How come Warrior Mundus wasn't tested?

How many times were each set combinations tested?

Thanks for the info

Offensive CP distribution: 100 mighty, 61 precise strikes, 39 thaumaturge.
It was time consuming and I didn't feel like running all of them again with another mundus, I was more interested in how set bonuses affect damage.
You can calculate average damage with crit chance, base damage, and crit damage. You only need to do a few attacks to get these numbers. Average damage represents the damage that each attack converges on as the number of attacks approaches infinity. For example, if my crit chance is 50%, my base damage is 6k, my crit damage is 10k, and I do 100 attacks, on average 50 will be 6k each and the other 50 will be 10k each, making for an average of 8k each.

smithist wrote: »

Very interesting. NMG is conspicuously absent though. Is it so out of vogue as to not be worth testing? I thought it was still considered fairly competitive. If not solo, at least for the group debuff?

NMG is great for trials and groups because everyone benefits from the 5 piece bonus. Spriggan will outperform NMG in solo play which is how I did this test. But the biggest reason i didn't use it was simply that I don't have it, I could craft it but I would have to gold it all out to make it fair.

Vapirko

And the big takeaway is...... meta builds are over rated, this game is a whole lot more supportive of individual builds, and theory crafted builds are awesome but you don't have to grind for years for BiS unless you're headed to top tier progression guilds. We are all of us, way too BiS obsessed. One of the reasons I've been loving Azuras star more and more over pve is that it really doesn't matter what build you're running so long as you have a good understanding of your own play style and how abilities and stats interact. I'm running hundings and ravager, both very easy to get, and they do just fine for me as a damage tank with a bit of emphasis placed on damage. Any of my shortcomings are skill based.

phillyproduct

Donmanzullo wrote: »

Valderis wrote: »

What is your CP breakdown?

How come Warrior Mundus wasn't tested?

How many times were each set combinations tested?

Thanks for the info

Offensive CP distribution: 100 mighty, 61 precise strikes, 39 thaumaturge.
It was time consuming and I didn't feel like running all of them again with another mundus, I was more interested in how set bonuses affect damage.
You can calculate average damage with crit chance, base damage, and crit damage. You only need to do a few attacks to get these numbers. Average damage represents the damage that each attack converges on as the number of attacks approaches infinity. For example, if my crit chance is 50%, my base damage is 6k, my crit damage is 10k, and I do 100 attacks, on average 50 will be 6k each and the other 50 will be 10k each, making for an average of 8k each.

smithist wrote: »

Very interesting. NMG is conspicuously absent though. Is it so out of vogue as to not be worth testing? I thought it was still considered fairly competitive. If not solo, at least for the group debuff?

NMG is great for trials and groups because everyone benefits from the 5 piece bonus. Spriggan will outperform NMG in solo play which is how I did this test. But the biggest reason i didn't use it was simply that I don't have it, I could craft it but I would have to gold it all out to make it fair.

Could you test tbs-levi with warrior-shadow combination i dont have levi yet wanted 2 test it my self on console, would really appreciate it

Donmanzullo

IMO perfecting your skill rotation and play style will help more than any of these sets ever will. When I finally realized that enemies didn't have to be standing on rearming trap the whole time and that the minor force buff it gives applies to any enemy you attack, not just the one on the trap, my dps went up tremensously.
All of these sets are solid choices - the difference between best and worst overall was about 5% which I'm sure I wouldn't even notice. I think what is more important is what else these sets can do: Dragr hulk is great for redguards and templars because you get more stamina restored. Leviathan is good with crit surge and war horn. Automaton is good for stam sorcs with all their physical damage. Hundings rage is a good all around-er. Spriggan is good for solo. TBS gives extra resources and basically gives you a customizable 5 piece bonus. VO gives you incredible sustain and mobility. I'm sure you can think of more.

SirDopey

GilGalad wrote: »

One thing that has to be mentioned:
In combination with MSA weapons every set that gives stamina or weapon dmg is suppressed by the MSA dual wield enchant. Therefore in dot heavy builds sets like VO, Leviathan and TBS should be much closer to sets that increase weapon dmg or stamina.
If you have the time you could run the tests with for MSA buffed dots.

Why do you say MSA weapons suppress stamina or weapon dmg set items?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SirDopey wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

One thing that has to be mentioned:
In combination with MSA weapons every set that gives stamina or weapon dmg is suppressed by the MSA dual wield enchant. Therefore in dot heavy builds sets like VO, Leviathan and TBS should be much closer to sets that increase weapon dmg or stamina.
If you have the time you could run the tests with for MSA buffed dots.

Why do you say MSA weapons suppress stamina or weapon dmg set items?

He means the weapon damage that gets added from cruel flurry enchant, when you use that enchant, the sets he mentioned, IE TBS and Leviathan will be better then they appear to be, as those give a percentage increase and the other sets are a set bonus.

And for future use it is vMA, not msa, Maelstrom is one word, not 2.

GilGalad

SirDopey wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

One thing that has to be mentioned:
In combination with MSA weapons every set that gives stamina or weapon dmg is suppressed by the MSA dual wield enchant. Therefore in dot heavy builds sets like VO, Leviathan and TBS should be much closer to sets that increase weapon dmg or stamina.
If you have the time you could run the tests with for MSA buffed dots.

Why do you say MSA weapons suppress stamina or weapon dmg set items?

Two easy examples how much dps you gain by adding 300 weapon dmg (considering abilities scale with max stam + 10.5*weapon dmg):
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +4.88% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +3.68% dps

Two examples for adding 3k stamina:
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +4.65% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +3.51% dps

So you can see the effect of sets like Hundings or Draugr on flurry empowered DOTS is reduced by more than 1% in the above examples. In general your DPS increase depends on the relative increase of the stats boosted by your sets, as long as the increase is additive, what most set bonis are. Even the 5% from VO are less in reality, since they are additive with the dmg bonis from minor berserk, racial passives, etc. Thats why stacking only one stat is generally not the most effective way to reach high sustained DPS.

jasonteck

How did you get this data?

Reefo

Some recommend NMG for VMA on a Stam sorc yet it wasn't tested here, I assume the crit is better there but is spriggan so much better to exclude it?

jasonteck

NMG is good but spriggans mitigates so much of the enemy resistance that is works so well. I tried NMG and did not like it on solo content. it is good to have someone run it in group play.

SirDopey

GilGalad wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

One thing that has to be mentioned:
In combination with MSA weapons every set that gives stamina or weapon dmg is suppressed by the MSA dual wield enchant. Therefore in dot heavy builds sets like VO, Leviathan and TBS should be much closer to sets that increase weapon dmg or stamina.
If you have the time you could run the tests with for MSA buffed dots.

Why do you say MSA weapons suppress stamina or weapon dmg set items?

Two easy examples how much dps you gain by adding 300 weapon dmg (considering abilities scale with max stam + 10.5*weapon dmg):
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +4.88% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +3.68% dps

Two examples for adding 3k stamina:
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +4.65% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +3.51% dps

So you can see the effect of sets like Hundings or Draugr on flurry empowered DOTS is reduced by more than 1% in the above examples. In general your DPS increase depends on the relative increase of the stats boosted by your sets, as long as the increase is additive, what most set bonis are. Even the 5% from VO are less in reality, since they are additive with the dmg bonis from minor berserk, racial passives, etc. Thats why stacking only one stat is generally not the most effective way to reach high sustained DPS.

yeah ok, but how does that relate to VMA weapons suppressing item sets????? Suppressing is to imply that the overall performance will be worse, but its not. Sure you get diminishing returns but you'll still be in a hell of a lot better position with 3.5% increase in dps starting at 5k point than you would with a 4.65% increase at 3k

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

jasonteck wrote: »

How did you get this data?

The OP literally explained this in amazing detail. Maybe read it?

SirDopey wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

One thing that has to be mentioned:
In combination with MSA weapons every set that gives stamina or weapon dmg is suppressed by the MSA dual wield enchant. Therefore in dot heavy builds sets like VO, Leviathan and TBS should be much closer to sets that increase weapon dmg or stamina.
If you have the time you could run the tests with for MSA buffed dots.

Why do you say MSA weapons suppress stamina or weapon dmg set items?

Two easy examples how much dps you gain by adding 300 weapon dmg (considering abilities scale with max stam + 10.5*weapon dmg):
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +4.88% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 300 weapon dmg ~ +3.68% dps

Two examples for adding 3k stamina:
1. 33k stamina, 3k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +4.65% dps
2. 33k stamina, 5k weapon dmg + 3k stamina ~ +3.51% dps

So you can see the effect of sets like Hundings or Draugr on flurry empowered DOTS is reduced by more than 1% in the above examples. In general your DPS increase depends on the relative increase of the stats boosted by your sets, as long as the increase is additive, what most set bonis are. Even the 5% from VO are less in reality, since they are additive with the dmg bonis from minor berserk, racial passives, etc. Thats why stacking only one stat is generally not the most effective way to reach high sustained DPS.

yeah ok, but how does that relate to VMA weapons suppressing item sets????? Suppressing is to imply that the overall performance will be worse, but its not. Sure you get diminishing returns but you'll still be in a hell of a lot better position with 3.5% increase in dps starting at 5k point than you would with a 4.65% increase at 3k

Dude, relax he choose a poor word to describe the lowering of the sets overall performance, you are taking it too literally.

acw37162

I just got a leviathan sharpened dagger last night.

I was thinking of pairing it with Drgur Hulk, VO, or spriggans.

Now I think I will save my tempers, thank you for taking the time

Donmanzullo

Reefo wrote: »

Some recommend NMG for VMA on a Stam sorc yet it wasn't tested here, I assume the crit is better there but is spriggan so much better to exclude it?

I already explained this here:

Donmanzullo wrote: »

smithist wrote: »

Very interesting. NMG is conspicuously absent though. Is it so out of vogue as to not be worth testing? I thought it was still considered fairly competitive. If not solo, at least for the group debuff?

NMG is great for trials and groups because everyone benefits from the 5 piece bonus. Spriggan will outperform NMG in solo play which is how I did this test. But the biggest reason i didn't use it was simply that I don't have it, I could craft it but I would have to gold it all out to make it fair.

ad4mss

So MA weapons are not recommended to run? It's better to run 2 full 5 piece sets + monster set instead of 1 full set, 3 pieces jewelery + monster set + dual wield MA weapons?

Yubarius

@Donmanzullo I know this is asking a lot, but would you mind doing this for magicka toons as well? Such as testing whether Scathing Mage outperforms BSW as a mageblade and also other sets?

Donmanzullo

Yubarius wrote: »

@Donmanzullo I know this is asking a lot, but would you mind doing this for magicka toons as well? Such as testing whether Scathing Mage outperforms BSW as a mageblade and also other sets?

I want that to be my next project but it will take time to collect the remaining set pieces and do the whole thing all over. It's tedious. Stam was easier for me since I already had all these sets.

Donmanzullo

ad4mss wrote: »

So MA weapons are not recommended to run? It's better to run 2 full 5 piece sets + monster set instead of 1 full set, 3 pieces jewelery + monster set + dual wield MA weapons?

I did not test Malestrom weapons so you can't draw that conclusion. This was about comparing multiple 5 piece sets.

kylewwefan

Interesting work. It pairs nicely with class testing Alcast recently did. He was using all same weapon abilities rotation on different class toons and they were all very close.

Rev Rielle

Donmanzullo wrote: »

IMO perfecting your skill rotation and play style will help more than any of these sets ever will. When I finally realized that enemies didn't have to be standing on rearming trap the whole time and that the minor force buff it gives applies to any enemy you attack, not just the one on the trap, my dps went up tremensously.
All of these sets are solid choices - the difference between best and worst overall was about 5% which I'm sure I wouldn't even notice. I think what is more important is what else these sets can do: Dragr hulk is great for redguards and templars because you get more stamina restored. Leviathan is good with crit surge and war horn. Automaton is good for stam sorcs with all their physical damage. Hundings rage is a good all around-er. Spriggan is good for solo. TBS gives extra resources and basically gives you a customizable 5 piece bonus. VO gives you incredible sustain and mobility. I'm sure you can think of more.

Exactly!

74,249 compared to 78913: the lowest damage dealing combination is only 6% less than the best. Albeit a crude comparison, it still has relative meaning. It's actually really great to see how balanced these sets are, and at the end of the day it's the player, not the equipment that makes the difference. This is in a similar vein to Alcast's tests a couple of months ago (showing, among many other things, the extremely small actual differences between infused & divines for example).

And another great example of the fact that we in no way shape or form have to farm for the 'perfect' set if we don't want to.

ad4mss

So it's about using 2x 5 piece sets + some 2 pieces monster set? Is the last graph with overall score shows total dps which can be reched with each sets combination?

ApatriD

@Donmanzullo
very useful and awesome work, thanks bunches!

But I have yet one question considering buffs aplliances to certain sets like Automaton.
Many people on forum state that buffs do not apply to flat bonuses from sets. If thats true, then those sets would yield to others significantly in actual battle situation.

But also many people are claiming that Automaton does not give damage bonus to Light/Heavy attacks (as it is stated in set description "bonus damage to physical abilities", however from your test it is obvious that it gives.

So I thought maybe there is the same missunderstanding with the buffs?

Would be glad to hear opnions about this

BloodStorm

What about Leviathan + Automaton. Been thinking of trying it. I feel like it would come on top for heavy/ stam spam or second place but dunno.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Nothing here is earth shattering or surprising. Your best damage when solo or outside a trial environment is going to start by stacking pen (Spriggans) then stacking weapon damage (automaton). If you had TFS pieces, they would have beat Spriggans and there isnt a better way to boost effective weapon damage on a stam sorc than automaton, but hundings is gonna be REALLY close. You also didnt test mechanical acuity, which is arguably meta for a lot of builds, seems to be a pretty big oversight. As to the pen, spriggans is a great way to boost pen when solo, but a horribly selfish set in a raid. Of course it beats NM when solo, but noone would ever say that Spriggans is a better raid set then NM (not talking next patch).

The caution here is that you really cant draw any useful conclusions about a raid environment, and you didnt seem to test mundus stones that are actually being used these days. I certainly applaud the effort, but I dont see a lot of usefulness for the results from this test. Also seems silly to test on a dungeon boss when there are dummies that will give you far fewer variables to worry about.

GreenhaloX

Damn.. you surely must have been bored and have much times on your hand. Good show and work, though. You must have a Phd in real life already and bored of higher education as well, or, you are just one heck of a spectacular fan of ESO on a level many planes higher than the rest of us. Ha ha

Colecovision

Was this even after morrowind? It was before the spriggans nerf. I wonder how 150 cp changes thing here. Also, the new jewelry traits. And whatever else is totally different.

We need a classic "Rise, from your grave" sound bite when we open threads this old.