[Addon] Miat's PVP Alerts has been updated!

Ixtyr

Fly666monkey wrote: »

Welp, I guess the AMD driver bug was a blessing in disguise. Not touching Cyrodiil until this add-on gets patched out.

Miat, drop the act, no one is buying it. You're not "helping the disabled," you just have a nasty case of cranial-*** inversion syndrome combined with a high sodium diet. In ANY PvP environment there are going to be people who rely on stealth, so either learn to play around that fact or GTFO. You don't get to dictate how other people are allowed to play.

This, right here, is why developers rarely take ideas from their player base.

Miat mains a Stamina Nightblade. He's literally compromising his own ability to play the main playstyle of his entire character's build by making this add-on available to people.

He's a walking conundrum in that respect.

He also gets rather salty when you foil his ganks at the Ash Lumbermill. Just speaking from experience.

Rohamad_Ali

I still haven't gotten any stealth attack notifications . Combat cloud and the Art of Shreds combat UI give way more notifications then this one during combat . I don't see anyone giving any of the creators of those addons a hard time or all the players using them .

Dorrino

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

I am still not sure if you only pretend your lack of understanding the difference between offering clearer "environment" and unfair advanatage or you actually do lack it.

Giving people advantage that they lack or that they couldnt ever even gain is and always be cheating, no matter the reason. If players are bad at aiming in FPS game they dont get to have aimbot, they stop playing or get used to being bad.

Looks like you need to define 'unfair' here. In my book, 'unfair' means 'not equal', 'privileged', 'elitistic' - generally something that is available to a part of population only.

Thus, if people playing a game have equal access, with no strings attached (unlike cheat engine), to a feature (no matter 1st or 3rd party) this cannot be unfair and becomes a matter of choice. You can choose to use this feature (available to everybody), you can refrain from using it. In both cases the result would be FAIR.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Giving people advantage that they lack or that they couldnt ever even gain is and always be cheating

Not in a slightest. If in fps everybody have access to an allowed aimbot software this cannot be cheating and would be an fps game with aimbot. Which can be fun on its own.

Generally, cheating implies having EXCLUSIVE advantage and thus is unfair.

If i had this addon to myself only that could be called cheating, by those who'd want to have it to themselves as well.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Every unfairness in ESO PVP is part of the game, unless you go outside it and bring in cheats and addons that offer something you couldnt have ingame

By following this logic we'd have to admit that all the addons 'offer something you couldn't have ingame'. This is the nature of addons:) They add things.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

you made it because you actually believe the stupid things you say.

Well, we all believe in the stupid things we say. I'm not an exception. Usually the difference is in how good people are in justifying their stupidity:)

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

I dont care what are you thriving for, if its fair PVP you are in the wrong game and also are failing horribly. I would bring up some stupid and exaggerated example of bringing "fairness" in game like ESO, but you basically top that with the antistealth cheat you made last time.

I'm thriving to make ESO a better experience, that's more or less it. Sorry that you don't like my addons, but still 'forced' to use them. Should feel bad to hate cheating and 'cheat' at the same time:)

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

//EDIT: Also I dont understand how is giving everybody advantage against ranged attacks make game more fair. Maybe if you mean every ranged player will switch to melee. Maybe even to same class with same build, then we can achieve the fair pvp you want.

Easy. Ranged already have an advantage over melee, because they are, well, ranged. And if you look closely, about half of the projectiles in the addon are used by melee characters as well. So i don't really see a huge bias here.

Dorrino

Hurika wrote: »

No you don't understand correctly and attempt to speak for me with things I did not say to counter my point instead of countering my point. Small groups flank zergs all the time - called tactics. Having a warning so you don't have to watch your surroundings means you need less situational awareness because an addon does that for you. Feel free to address this but don't put words in other's mouths when you do it.

I'm sorry if i unintentionally offended you, but which part of my answer was not related to your post?

You said the addon 'negates' attacking from strategic directions.

I countered that these attacks are either called 'ganking' and i, personally, don't see the necessity to preserve ganking in the game as it is (oneshots) or it's the small group 'tactical' running around los and coming out with ult bomb.

In the later case, even setting aside how easy that strategy is, my addon provides zero notifications for the incoming ball group. Ball group ults dumps, not frags/snipes from 30 meters. I haven't really seen a surprise (strategic:)) flank from a small man group that relied on ranged projectiles covered in the addon. If i'm missing something here, please explain that to me.

Hurika wrote: »

If this was during the course of a fight and they caught me off guard or not paying attention to others or my surroundings or maybe they used streak or maybe they used shadow image to reposition behind me so I'm not able to see their next attack. There are tactics and strategies used by players just fyi.

Which attacks exactly are we talking about here? Strategic streak with frags? Image and flame reach?

Hurika wrote: »

It doesn't matter how - don't change the focus on the point to avoid answering why it should negate their actions.

It doesn't negate their actions. It can't. The player has to react in time. For close range (10-15 meters) it's really hard to react even with the notification. The only ones 'negated' are long range attacks. Say 20+ meters. Which of your described strategies rely on attacks from that range to be less noticeable?

Dorrino

Ixtyr wrote: »

Miat mains a Stamina Nightblade. He's literally compromising his own ability to play the main playstyle of his entire character's build by making this add-on available to people.

He's a walking conundrum in that respect.

This part is easy. I need more fair battle environment that we have right now. And fair doesn't mean 'i'm stronger than everybody else':)

Ixtyr wrote: »

He also gets rather salty when you foil his ganks at the Ash Lumbermill. Just speaking from experience.

The thing is i don't gank:) I don't even go in stealth. Only cloak.

usmcjdking

Round 1 of Miat's Addon was a wee-bit cheesy with the stealth detection add-on, but then again getting one shot from stealth was quite cheesy itself.

I see nothing wrong with this. All it does is provide the user information - whether they act upon that information or not is entirely up to the users capability.

ZOS_JohanaB

We've moved this thread to Add-Ons & UI Mods

Pumpkin_pants

Why don't you just make it so it dodge rolls for the player? Or program it so the player doesn't even have to use the movement keys or press any buttons. We can just watch our characters play the game. How cool would that be?

Dorrino

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

Why don't you just make it so it dodge rolls for the player? Or program it so the player doesn't even have to use the movement keys or press any buttons. We can just watch our characters play the game. How cool would that be?

I can easily make it so UI would be clear with no cheaty hp/mag/stam bars, no damage/healing numbers and no buffs whatsoever. In pvp all you need is situational awareness and player skill. How cool would THAT be?

Pumpkin_pants

Dorrino wrote: »

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

Why don't you just make it so it dodge rolls for the player? Or program it so the player doesn't even have to use the movement keys or press any buttons. We can just watch our characters play the game. How cool would that be?

I can easily make it so UI would be clear with no cheaty hp/mag/stam bars, no damage/healing numbers and no buffs whatsoever. In pvp all you need is situational awareness and player skill. How cool would THAT be?

That's how I play, and I think it's great. It's pretty obvious though when someone is using your lame addon.

Dorrino

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

That's how I play, and I think it's great. It's pretty obvious though when someone is using your lame addon.

Indulge us with a quick pvp video without hp, mag and stam information on your screen. I want, for once, to observe an example of a truly skilled player.

Oh yeah, and please no target hp information there as well. That's cheating.

Pumpkin_pants

Dorrino wrote: »

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

That's how I play, and I think it's great. It's pretty obvious though when someone is using your lame addon.

Indulge us with a quick pvp video without hp, mag and stam information on your screen. I want, for once, to observe an example of a truly skilled player.

Oh yeah, and please no target hp information there as well. That's cheating.

Are you implying playing the vanilla game is cheating? -_-...

Dorrino

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

Are you implying playing the vanilla game is cheating? -_-...

Vanilla game, apparently provides too much cheating type of information on the screen that apparently interferes with skillful play and has to be fixed. As i said i can definitely write an addon that fixes that and leaves bare uncluttered screen for your pvp pleasure.

Think about it, vanilla interface gives hp information! And not just for you (which already sounds like clutches to help unskillful people play the game). It gives full hp information for your target! Why would you even need environment cues and situation awareness if you got the numbers on your screen? Skillful play comes from carefully watching your opponents actions and deduce his hp level from them.

But fear not, i can fix that. I can write an addon that turns off your ui altogether in pvp and leaves it off.

ps. Are you implying that using addons that are based on vanilla API is cheating?

Pumpkin_pants

Dorrino wrote: »

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

Are you implying playing the vanilla game is cheating? -_-...

Vanilla game, apparently provides too much cheating type of information on the screen that apparently interferes with skillful play and has to be fixed. As i said i can definitely write an addon that fixes that and leaves bare uncluttered screen for your pvp pleasure.

Think about it, vanilla interface gives hp information! And not just for you (which already sounds like clutches to help unskillful people play the game). It gives full hp information for your target! Why would you even need environment cues and situation awareness if you got the numbers on your screen? Skillful play comes from carefully watching your opponents actions and deduce his hp level from them.

But fear not, i can fix that. I can write an addon that turns off your ui altogether in pvp and leaves it off.

ps. Are you implying that using addons that are based on vanilla API is cheating?

You seem to be in a totally different reality. Your addon gives players an awareness that they should not have & would not have in vanilla gameplay. In my opinion, and many other players/customers opinions it is cheating. I would NEVER use an addon like this, because I believe in fair gameplay. It is beyond my understanding why ZOS even allows it.

Anyway, you play with your cute little telepathic addons and dodge-rolling in circles around the resource towers. I'll keep ignoring you and taking your factions keeps while you do so.

Dorrino

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

You seem to be in a totally different reality. Your addon gives players an awareness that they should not have & would not have in vanilla gameplay. In my opinion, and many other players/customers opinions it is cheating. I would NEVER use an addon like this, because I believe in fair gameplay. It is beyond my understanding why ZOS even allows it.

Anyway, you play with your cute little telepathic addons and dodge-rolling in circles around the resource towers. I'll keep ignoring you and taking your factions keeps while you do so.

You seem not to understand it yet. Hp numbers themselves is cheating, much worse than projectiles alerts can ever be.
Only a few spells are projectiles, even fewer are tracked in the addon. But hp numbers are provided literally for everybody and having them drastically increase pvp effectiveness as opposed to not having them.

In your approach you have to complain about resource numbers first, damage numbers second and my projectile alerts 10th.

If we judge by the amount of 'unfair advantage' each of those features give to players.

For some reason though, you're totally fine with all those, but alerts for selected abilities, alerts that STILL need to be reacted to - they are suddenly cheating.

I'd understand your point if you played with bare interface, but accepting the huge advantage the current 'vanilla' interface gives you and rejecting a slight addition to it is hypocrisy to say the least.

All the arguments that i heard about losing element of surprise and providing too much information can and should be applied to the features we already have in 'vanilla', because these feature's impact is 10 times stronger.

Edit: Speaking of features that players 'shouldn't have', how can you justify why players 'should have' any of the existing features of the vanilla ui? What is the basis for all this 'should/shouldn't have' argument?

Pumpkin_pants

Dorrino wrote: »

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

You seem to be in a totally different reality. Your addon gives players an awareness that they should not have & would not have in vanilla gameplay. In my opinion, and many other players/customers opinions it is cheating. I would NEVER use an addon like this, because I believe in fair gameplay. It is beyond my understanding why ZOS even allows it.

Anyway, you play with your cute little telepathic addons and dodge-rolling in circles around the resource towers. I'll keep ignoring you and taking your factions keeps while you do so.

You seem not to understand it yet. Hp numbers themselves is cheating, much worse than projectiles alerts can ever be.
Only a few spells are projectiles, even fewer are tracked in the addon. But hp numbers are provided literally for everybody and having them drastically increase pvp effectiveness as opposed to not having them.

In your approach you have to complain about hp resource numbers first, damage numbers second and my projectile alerts 10th.

If we judge by the amount of 'unfair advantage' each of those features give to players.

For some reason though, you're totally fine with all those, but alerts for selected abilities, alerts that STILL need to be reacted to - they are suddenly cheating.

I'd understand your point if you played with bare interface, but accepting the huge advantage the current 'vanilla' interface gives you, but rejecting a slight addition to it is hypocrisy to say the least.

All the arguments that i heard about losing element of surprise and providing too much information can and should be applied to the features we already have in 'vanilla', because these feature's impact is 10 times stronger.

I understand what you are trying to say, but it is just delusional.

Dorrino

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

I understand what you are trying to say, but it is just delusional.

And i don't understand how people treat something with much more utility as great, but something with much less utility as awful and cheating.

Stealth attacks argument was quite clear. Things not provided by game (read outside of game's design scope).

But all these attacks are already being notified by both visual and audial cues. And yet, i'm 'delusional' and these are 'cheating':)

Yirmeyahu

So...

If ZOS (probably more like "when ZOS") decides that they still aren't wild about what this addon does now any more than pre-Homestead and, once again, changes the entire API to block it (thus breaking the majority of other addons that most players enjoy, yet again) will you go for a round three in Morrowind?

I'm just trying to get a feel for how many times this work will be thwarted by brute force before you grasp the concept that it isn't appreciated.

Thanks

dbrand001

Maybe PC just needs to be like consoles with no addons at all.

Dorrino

Yirmeyahu wrote: »

I'm just trying to get a feel for how many times this work will be thwarted by brute force before you grasp the concept that it isn't appreciated.

Thanks

Since so far people are vague at best to describe which parts and why exactly they don't appreciate i'll continue doing what i find important to do.

If you don't like my work - just don't use it. The stance you're showing here sounds more or less like i'm letting someone down by making things that i like to make.

If, for some reason, you think that it takes little effort to do what i do here, you're wrong. This is hard creative work and the controversial feature took ~5% of the whole efforts put into the addon.

So you don't like all the features of the addon and tell me all of them are not appreciated? That's cool, but that requires some explanation.

Right now people like you come to me without suggestions. Like 'you understand this is cheating'. No i don't. Because it's not.

So what do you propose me to do exactly?:)

dbrand001

Dorrino wrote: »

Yirmeyahu wrote: »

I'm just trying to get a feel for how many times this work will be thwarted by brute force before you grasp the concept that it isn't appreciated.

Thanks

Since so far people are vague at best to describe which parts and why exactly they don't appreciate i'll continue doing what i find important to do.

If you don't like my work - just don't use it. The stance you're showing here sounds more or less like i'm letting someone down by making things that i like to make.

If, for some reason, you think that it takes little effort to do what i do here, you're wrong. This is hard creative work and the controversial feature took ~5% of the whole efforts put into the addon.

So you don't like all the features of the addon and tell me all of them are not appreciated? That's cool, but that requires some explanation.

Right now people like you come to me without suggestions. Like 'you understand this is cheating'. No i don't. Because it's not.

So what do you propose me to do exactly?:)

I am pretty sure what he is saying is that ZOS doesnt appreciate it. Yet you didnt get the hint.

Yirmeyahu

The API was drastically changed, I gather in large part, to shut down "PvP Alerts".
If I were the author, I would assume that meant something. I would probably feel a bit infamous.
Personally, I know players who didn't care about the addon itself or the impact it had on PvP.
But, when most of their addons didn't work for the first 2-3 weeks of PvE raiding... They suddenly cared.
I wouldn't want that reputation. I'd understand what had just taken place and let sleeping dogs lie.
I'd understand that pushing the envelope could very well lead to a closed API. But... That's just me.

Dorrino

dbrand001 wrote: »

I am pretty sure what he is saying is that ZOS doesnt appreciate it. Yet you didnt get the hint.

Are we roleplaying secret society members here?

People keep 'giving me hints', but usually don't follow up with reasonable justifications.

And yep, i didn't get that meaning:(

Yirmeyahu wrote: »

The API was drastically changed, I gather in large part, to shut down "PvP Alerts".
If I were the author, I would assume that meant something. I would probably feel a bit infamous.
Personally, I know players who didn't care about the addon itself or the impact it had on PvP.
But, when most of their addons didn't work for the first 2-3 weeks of PvE raiding... They suddenly cared.
I wouldn't want that reputation. I'd understand what had just taken place and let sleeping dogs lie.
I'd understand that pushing the envelope could very well lead to a closed API. But... That's just me.

1. Non-buff related changes were not due to pvpalerts, but were partially due to some other things i discovered.

2. You see, there's a problem. I don't make addons features to be controversial or sensationalist. It's not like i could say to myself 'alright, don't implement that, because ZOS has been trolled enough'. I don't troll, i sincerely implement something i want to be in the game. Thus, figuring out what is 'appropriate' is kinda tricky, especially since it can't be addons' authors problem to figure that out.

I can't imagine writing addons using private API and thinking 'what if this was not a desirable thing', 'what if the company decides that closing API is cheaper than fix it'. Addons making is a creativity field. It's a confined and heavily regulated environment. And that's the beauty of it. That authors can forget about breaking something in a live application, or do something that leads to decrease of profits.

So i really don't see how can i censor myself even if i wanted it. To stop making addons altogether?

jameson71

Yirmeyahu wrote: »

So...

If ZOS (probably more like "when ZOS") decides that they still aren't wild about what this addon does now any more than pre-Homestead and, once again, changes the entire API to block it (thus breaking the majority of other addons that most players enjoy, yet again) will you go for a round three in Morrowind?

I'm just trying to get a feel for how many times this work will be thwarted by brute force before you grasp the concept that it isn't appreciated.

Thanks

I for one hope that Miat keeps exposing what is possible with the API to the general public. Without his addons only the "elite" would have access to this functionality. Not all of us have the time and ability to dig through the API to see what is possible.

Whether or not ZOS patches the API again, THANK YOU MIAT for leveling the playing field, AGAIN.

jameson71

Fly666monkey wrote: »

Welp, I guess the AMD driver bug was a blessing in disguise. Not touching Cyrodiil until this add-on gets patched out.

Miat, drop the act, no one is buying it. You're not "helping the disabled," you just have a nasty case of cranial-*** inversion syndrome combined with a high sodium diet. In ANY PvP environment there are going to be people who rely on stealth, so either learn to play around that fact or GTFO. You don't get to dictate how other people are allowed to play.

This, right here, is why developers rarely take ideas from their player base.

Can I have your stuff?

chrisub17_ESO104

If the developers haven't fixed something they know exists in months, well it's not cheating at that point imo. It might be completely ass broken, not fair, not in the spirit of the game, all kinds of bad in general, but if the creators of the game refuse to remove it, well it's part of the game at that point.

why they won't remove some of the info is beyond me. Actually the fact that they even thought it was a good idea to start with boggles the mind.

Don't blame miat. It's not his fault the api supports everything he is doing, if zenimax cared at all it wouldn't have taken them what close to 2 years to patch something they had to have known would end up being a problem from the very start. Sending stealth information unencrypted is kind of like sending clear text passwords over the wire. Less sensitive information but same principle, and something any good developer automatically knows would be an issue.

So if you want to get mad at someone, point the anger at zenimax they are the ones entirely responsible here.

If miat was reverse engineering a proprietary protocol that was not part of the public api, then it would be different. But he isn't doing that, and there is just no way zenimax developers couldn't have had a pretty good idea that if they expose projectile/stealth information in their api, that addons would actually use it. You can't publish an api and then say ok you can't use A, B, and C together to come up with D, you have to use them separately and not use any derived information (just taking a wild guess at how it works). You have to figure that people will derive whatever is possible that will give players an edge. That's like basic game dev 101 stuff.

Dorrino

chrisub17_ESO104 wrote: »

You can't publish an api and then say ok you can't use A, B, and C together to come up with D, you have to use them separately and not use any derived information (just taking a wild guess at how it works).

Even more than this. The only 'derived information' that was ever used in the addon was the detection if the attacker was stealthing. The game has not explicitly provided a way to find out that. Actually that's how and why the database of players came to be:) It was a solution to determine what's the class and alliance of 'playername' that just started the channel against you.

Everything else including channeled attacks starting and projectiles firing is as straightforward as it can get. No tricks involved. The game basically says that 'here is an attack that started being channeled on you by this name, this id, this guy's name, this guy's id'. Exact same thing for projectiles.