Not very happy that we're forced to gamble...

Duiwel

I get that the crown crates will help you guys make a lot of money however I agree with the post made by @charlmgn yesterday : "Why do crown crates penalize previous customers" (who bought previous stuff) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324833/why-do-crown-crates-penalize-previous-store-customers#latest

The reason for this post is I want an Atro mount, yet I am forced to gamble for it until I get it. When I came back in the beginning of 2017 I subbed, having not played since the crown crates were introduced I immediately spent my crowns on a 15 pack.

Only to receive a 150% exp scroll as my best drop.
You are removing the crates in 2 days so I decided to bite the bullet and buy 15 more this morning, I got a black mane lion (yay, because I really wanted another male lion; since I already HAD the other one as well as the lion cub... see ^ link above for relevance)
Then I realised the only way I will get it is if I spam crates so I bought 2 more

Long story short after 60 crates total this year I could finally TRADE GEMS for the mount I wanted... so I had to pay TWENTY THOUSAND CROWNS for one mount, which I find disconcerting and greedy... There are already plenty of mounts you guys will make your money regardless.

I mean if you could buy the mounts separately I would have bought:

Storm Atro Wolf
Storm Atro Senche
Storm Atro Bear
Soul Shriven Horse
Frost Mare
Alliance War Horse
Atronach transformation

Now instead of having purchased all of those like I could in the past (freedom of purchase / choice) I only have 2...

My question is simple, why the greed?

Many of us love this company, game, franchise, we pre-ordered the collector's edition hard copy, we bought the extra character slots, we bought a second copy of the game or bought the game for a friend on sale ( I know many of us who did these things), we bought crown exclusive cosmetics / mounts, we pre-ordered Morrowind collector's edition. We sub...

It just feels like a really abusive relationship having to hide these things behind an RNG paywall...

I know you don't care and you are making so much profit it will never go away but I had to get this off my chest.

holosoul

@Duiwel I agree but had the opposite behavioral response. After I bought 15 crates and ran the stats in my head I decided it wasn't fun enough to participate. I hate to mention another game here but this is contrary to my experience in Overwatch, where you get a legendary every 10 crates almost guaranteed and if you have all the old seasonal items then buying a 50 pack means you get enough refund points for 1 and 1/2 legendary skins of your own choice 100% of the time, plus a ton of bonus goods.

The difference is not only that the smaller rewards are delightful, but you can get what you want when you buy the big one.
Our system here is no fun.

Turelus

As I keep posting, these are not for our benefit at all and it's probably the most scummy business move ZOS has ever made for ESO.

I do wonder though how many more items they would have sold if all of the ones in the pack were just up for sale as either limited offers or general sales.

I wish ZOS would realise how scummy this is and change their mind, but I don't think the people who run the Crown Store side of things give a damn about anything but money.

holosoul

My shallow analysis of 15 crates + anecdotes from here validating my stats tells me that:

1 gem = 0.50 USD
I would like the option to purchase crown gems at 100 = 25 USD

You might think this is inflated because you would only get 60 - 80 gems on average from 40 USD, but unlike opening crates when you buy the gems directly you get no bonus goods. Therefor, if I wanted an apex mount I could pay 100 USD, get the apex mount and nothing else.

Edit: Or hey, you could just make it fun and enjoyable to buy the crates. Get rid of the things you see people selling back to you instantly everytime would be a good start.

bluemanjoe_ESO

I think you proved why it's setup this way.. you paid a ton more than you normally would for an item. The only way to change it is to stop buying, but it seems like people are buying and justifying their prices.

If you don't want to see it as gambling then just assume you will always have to buy the item you want with gems. You spent 60 crates to get the gems so just assume the apex rewards cost 60 crates. If that is too much for you I would just move on..

Duiwel

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

You spent 6K crowns to get the gems so just assume the apex rewards cost 6k crowns.

Didn't spend 6k crowns at all mate, spent 22k.

Agree with what's been said by everyone especially you @Turelius it truly is scummy and they would have probably made more had it been limited offers.

Unfortunately you're forced into it holo either you participate or lose out and if you really want an awesome atro mount you had to "lose out via participation "

bluemanjoe_ESO

Duiwel wrote: »

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

You spent 6K crowns to get the gems so just assume the apex rewards cost 6k crowns.

Didn't spend 6k crowns at all mate, spent 22k.
"

yea typo I meant spent 60 crates = 20K crowns.

From my calculations 24K crowns is around the price to get an apex reward with gems only and no luck.

It's funny, I just did a search on the forums for the frost mare mount and it used to cost 3K crowns, in the crates it would take around 6K crowns to buy it with gems now.

People were complaining on the forums release post at the 3K crowns price, now it costs double. Maybe people shouldn't have complained so much at the 3K price if they didn't want to see things like crates which get people to spend spend spend. People want to buy each item separately but why would they do that when people just complain that the prices are too high? They were complaining at 3K when it's not even close to what they could get with crates. The RNG seems the way to go to get the most money.

Turelus

You might find this topic interesting. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/306955/demystifying-crown-crate-drop-chances-with-80-000-simulations

Slurg

You are not forced to buy anything, as much as you might want it. When you get mad about it, come post here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

And this is not an "abusive relationship". ZOS is a company that wants your money. You are a customer who can choose whether or not to give them money. It's just business.

But you're on the right track with not expecting anything to change. They're clearly a very successful business since so many customers have posted in various threads they feel forced to buy these things.

holosoul

Slurg wrote: »

You are not forced to buy anything, as much as you might want it. When you get mad about it, come post here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

And this is not an "abusive relationship". ZOS is a company that wants your money. You are a customer who can choose whether or not to give them money. It's just business.

But you're on the right track with not expecting anything to change. They're clearly a very successful business since so many customers have posted in various threads they feel forced to buy these things.

I think saying ESO was successful is really pushing it. As far as MMOs go, it was barely not a failure.

redspecter23

You did exactly what ZOS was hoping you'd do. Why would they stop? They are fully aware that some people will feel like they were absolutely scammed when they are done buying and they are fine with that. That's why people say this is a scummy move by ZOS. They are completely aware of these negative buying experiences and are happy to keep having it happen.

Slurg

holosoul wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

You are not forced to buy anything, as much as you might want it. When you get mad about it, come post here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

And this is not an "abusive relationship". ZOS is a company that wants your money. You are a customer who can choose whether or not to give them money. It's just business.

But you're on the right track with not expecting anything to change. They're clearly a very successful business since so many customers have posted in various threads they feel forced to buy these things.

I think saying ESO was successful is really pushing it. As far as MMOs go, it was barely not a failure.

I can't ride through a town without seeing multiple atronach mounts and at least a quarter of the people I see in every bank are wearing crate exclusive costumes and/or using crate vanity pets. If I never saw any of it in the game I wouldn't be calling it a success.

Turelus

Slurg wrote: »

You are not forced to buy anything, as much as you might want it. When you get mad about it, come post here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

And this is not an "abusive relationship". ZOS is a company that wants your money. You are a customer who can choose whether or not to give them money. It's just business.

But you're on the right track with not expecting anything to change. They're clearly a very successful business since so many customers have posted in various threads they feel forced to buy these things.

I hate this argument so much.

This is how it works, no on the very base line of your argument we are not forced to do anything, we can play the game and never once touch the Crown Store.

However, there are items in the store which we want. As an ESO+ member you get some "free" crowns to spend on these items and you could choose what you wanted.

However the change to the crates does force the player into something they don't want for something they want.

To use a horrible analogy.

Imagine TES VI comes out and you really wanted to play it. It costs £50. Now normally you could just go and buy TES VI in the store for £50 and be happy.

However this time Bethesda wants more money form you, so what they did is they said stores can't sell you TES VI directly and you have to play a game if spin the wheel first to find out what you get.

Tickets cost £5 each and the wheel is split up as follows in regards to chances.

TES VI - 5%
Other new Bethesda game - 10%
Random store game - 25%
Cuddly toy - 25%
Candy bar - 35%

Now in order to get something which you want and are more than willing to spend £50 on you have to play 20 times (£100) in order to have an statistically probably (not guaranteed chance) to get what you want.

But remember, you're not forced to play this game, you could just not get TES VI.

Duiwel

Slurg wrote: »

You are not forced to buy anything, as much as you might want it.

@Slurg Unfortunately I believe you read my title out of context without reading the main content thoroughly and I will take a moment to clarify some context i.e. I will quote the line:

Duiwel wrote: »

...I want an Atro mount, yet I am forced to gamble for it until I get it. .../quote] as you can see you are forced to GAMBLE in order to obtain said mount.

So while I never said you are being forced to buy the crates I did state that if one wishes to own a certain item which is hidden behind this devious paywall and gamble system you are indeed forced to gamble and hope for the best.

Hope that clarification sorts out any misconception.

Edit because had your reply tag inside the quote

Jitterbug

One need only look at the game world to see how many atro mounts there are, and thus how many people have bought crates.
If we as a community refused to buy them ZOS would see it, but as it is it seems only a select few forum warriors are making a big deal about it. The rest are just buying crates.

Slurg

Wow that was a horrible analogy. And guess what, I still wouldn't buy it.

Okay, all of you carry on with feeling "forced" to buy things from a company you "love" and are having an "abusive relationship" with in your minds. I'll stop trying to point out that everyone has choices because clearly some of you really are that helpless.

Oh and bottom line, this:

Jitterbug wrote: »

One need only look at the game world to see how many atro mounts there are, and thus how many people have bought crates.
If we as a community refused to buy them ZOS would see it, but as it is it seems only a select few forum warriors are making a big deal about it. The rest are just buying crates.

Turelus

Jitterbug wrote: »

One need only look at the game world to see how many atro mounts there are, and thus how many people have bought crates.
If we as a community refused to buy them ZOS would see it, but as it is it seems only a select few forum warriors are making a big deal about it. The rest are just buying crates.

It's easier to say than do when you actually want something.

I purchased crates and was lucky enough to get a Storm Horse in my first set (15 crates), I didn't want anything else in there, just that mount because I wanted a whole lightning/storm theme for my character.

Now I agree these are a huge rip-off and I would rather not buy them, but... the only option I have for new mounts I want is these now, because ZOS are very unlikely to produce anything really nice as stand alone sales now.

It's basically the choice of "never have anything you want" or "accept this is how it is but don't be lured into the spending trap"

Duiwel

Turelus wrote: »

It's basically the choice of "never have anything you want" or "accept this is how it is but don't be lured into the spending trap"

Darkstorne

Duiwel wrote: »

The reason for this post is I want an Atro mount, yet I am forced to gamble for it until I get it.

You were not forced into anything. Many of us, myself included, wanted those mounts (I really wanted that black mane lion so congrats there) but realized the costs involved in obtaining what we wanted were flat out disgusting.

Is that shiny collection of pixels dancing across my screen worth ~$100?

• If yes - buy Crown Crates
• If no - don't buy Crown Crates

Sadly a lot of people, who you are now honoured to be a part of, don't think that through and go ahead and gamble anyway. These crate items will never be sold separately at a fair price until this mentality changes:

Duiwel

Darkstorne wrote: »

You were not forced into anything.

I refer you to post #14 Please read it

Turelus

Darkstorne wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

The reason for this post is I want an Atro mount, yet I am forced to gamble for it until I get it.

You were not forced into anything. Many of us, myself included, wanted those mounts (I really wanted that black mane lion so congrats there) but realized the costs involved in obtaining what we wanted were flat out disgusting.

Is that shiny collection of pixels dancing across my screen worth ~$100?

• If yes - buy Crown Crates
• If no - don't buy Crown Crates

Sadly a lot of people, who you are now honoured to be a part of, don't think that through and go ahead and gamble anyway. These crate items will never be sold separately at a fair price until this mentality changes:

The mentality won't change though, because people want what ZOS is selling.

It's fine to say "just don't buy it" until it's something you really want, what you're asking is for people to never buy anything they want in this game again because a company are being scummy about it.

See my stupid analogy above, at the end of the day something will be in a crate you want enough to pay for, and you will pay for it regardless of the stupid RNG and stacked odds. This is what ZOS know and prey on and it's why they're scum for it.

They're going to keep putting all the good and unique items in crates now and just throw trash on the normal store. Wait until furnishing or housing appears as apex items and see how much worse ZOS can make these.

anitajoneb17_ESO

A crown crate item isn't a product, ware or service. It is a PRIZE. Which means you're not entitled to buy it at any given price. You may only buy a chance to get it. You might just as well spend your entire savings on crates and still not get it. (Although in ESO it's limited by the crown gem system).

If TESVI was changed from a product into a prize, I wouldn't buy it either.

If you (OP) weren't fully aware of this being only a PRIZE, well at least now you know.
If you really, really want one of those crate items, you must consider the crown gems price of it (in this case, around 20K crowns), see if you're ready to pay that price, and go. That way you don't risk paying higher than planned - only cheaper.

And as to your question "why the greed ?" : well, a company wants and needs to make money, and your testimony, unfortunately, proves once again that crown crates are very efficient at making money. Simple as that.

If it didn't work, crates wouldn't exist. As a consequence, for people who don't like crates, the efficient option is not to whine nor to protest. It is, plain and simple, to not buy them.

Turelus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

A crown crate item isn't a product, ware or service. It is a PRIZE. Which means you're not entitled to buy it at any given price. You may only buy a chance to get it. You might just as well spend your entire savings on crates and still not get it. (Although in ESO it's limited by the crown gem system).

If TESVI was changed from a product into a prize, I wouldn't buy it either.

I'm truly surprised that adults, educated people don't seem to get that... but if you (OP) didn't, well at least now you know.

And as to your question "why the greed ?", well, a company wants and needs to make money, and your testimony, unfortunately, proves once again that crown crates are very efficient at making money. Simple as that.

If it didn't work, crates wouldn't exist. As a consequence, for people who don't like crates, the efficient option is not to whine nor to protest. It is, plain and simple, to not buy them.

A company can make money without being scummy about it. There are plenty of MMO games (including ones which offer B2P or F2P service) without resorting to RNG boxes. Granted that most of these need to have P2W elements to drive sales.

If you want a nice example of just how horrible this becomes take a look at SWTOR.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

A company can make money without being scummy about it. There are plenty of MMO games (including ones which offer B2P or F2P service) without resorting to RNG boxes. Granted that most of these need to have P2W elements to drive sales.
If you want a nice example of just how horrible this becomes take a look at SWTOR.

Sure, a company can make money without being scummy. There's no denying that. But within the limits of the law, a company is totally free to use scummy means to make money. It's their decision.

The answer to "why crown crates" is => to make money.
The answer to "why the greed" is => because as a company we want/need to make money
The answer to "why crown crates and not something more ethical" => THAT could only be answered by ZOS. Part of the answer is probably, though, that no design is as profitable than crown crates.

The only power we as customers have, is to buy or not to buy. Some people, like @Lysette , have quit the game entirely over crown crates. I can only approve of such consistency.
I disapprove of crates but in my opinion it doesn't make the entire ZOS company completely despicable (after all their monetization scheme could be much worse, as many other games have demonstrated), so my choice is to keep on playing while ignoring the crates and never ever buy one.
But disapproving of crates, buying 100$ worth of them, and then come whining (here or ingame or whatever) about scam and all ? That's the most inconsistent thing anyone can do.

Darkstorne

Duiwel wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

You were not forced into anything.

I refer you to post #14 Please read it

Turelus wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

The reason for this post is I want an Atro mount, yet I am forced to gamble for it until I get it.

You were not forced into anything. Many of us, myself included, wanted those mounts (I really wanted that black mane lion so congrats there) but realized the costs involved in obtaining what we wanted were flat out disgusting.

Is that shiny collection of pixels dancing across my screen worth ~$100?

• If yes - buy Crown Crates
• If no - don't buy Crown Crates

Sadly a lot of people, who you are now honoured to be a part of, don't think that through and go ahead and gamble anyway. These crate items will never be sold separately at a fair price until this mentality changes:

The mentality won't change though, because people want what ZOS is selling.

It's fine to say "just don't buy it" until it's something you really want, what you're asking is for people to never buy anything they want in this game again because a company are being scummy about it.

See my stupid analogy above, at the end of the day something will be in a crate you want enough to pay for, and you will pay for it regardless of the stupid RNG and stacked odds. This is what ZOS know and prey on and it's why they're scum for it.

They're going to keep putting all the good and unique items in crates now and just throw trash on the normal store. Wait until furnishing or housing appears as apex items and see how much worse ZOS can make these.

Yeah, I completely disagree with both of you when the majority of consumers are having to pay around $100 just to get that cosmetic item. It is JUST a cosmetic. It doesn't matter how frickin' awesome these things look (and believe me, my main is a Stamina Sorc who blitzes around in a thunderous storm of lightning and fury - I really wanted these mounts), I'm never going to pay that much money for an intangible collection of pixels.

It's the same reason I didn't buy the Elk mount. I absolutely wanted the mount, but it was not worth spending $30-40 on. These $100+ mounts in Crown Crates can go **** themselves, and until the rest of the community wakes up to smell the **** we'll be stuck with this system. One single mount is not the worth cost of Horizon Zero Dawn and For Honor combined. Who in their right mind thinks that's a good idea?

DeadlyRecluse

The worst part is the atro mounts look like poop...

Shiny poop though!

holosoul

The worst part is you can't even preview the polymorph

Duiwel

@anitajoneb17_ESO The problem with your entire post is it's trying to explain to me what the system is/ why they are doing it. I think you miss the point. I am stating that I am not happy with the system, I didn't ask for the forums to: "please explain how / why did ZOS do the crown crates, I don't understand"


Enticing people into gambling / something that is even more addictive than gaming or sometimes even drugs is a bad thing and should be condemned as a whole. In fact is shouldn't be legal imo. Not without a gambling license.

Also your analogy about it being a prize is incorrect because:

"A crown crate item isn't a product, ware or service. It is a PRIZE." as you put it, keep in mind that these "prizes" you so bluntly refer them to use to be sold as items / separately. Thus your argument is tremendously flawed and one sided.

I didn't ask for a PRIZE I asked for a Storm atro mount. ( like Turelus, I would also have been happy with any one of them ).

AlienSlof

Unfortunately, all those people buying crates are telling ZO$ that the ploy is working. I see enough crate-only things running around to know that people are buying into this gambling farce en masse. Vote with your wallet, and these crate buyers have done just that.

The devs are NOT the ones to blame - they just make what they're asked to make. Many of them are also gamers. The marketing department - and the person who brought the crate idea into the mix - these people are NOT gamers. They're the ones to place the blame firmly on, and by buying endless numbers of crates, you're giving them the clear message that their scam is working as intended.

There were many things I really wanted, including a storm horse and senche. I really would have liked those and would have paid money to get them - directly. That is a sale they've lost out on. Crate buyers are ensuring that the nicest stuff will remain behind the gamble wall.

Thanks for that.

Darkstorne

Duiwel wrote: »

I didn't ask for a PRIZE I asked for a Storm atro mount. ( like Turelus, I would also have been happy with any one of them ).

You DID ask for a prize. You knew that by purchasing a Crown Crate you were paying for the chance to get an item you wanted, and not directly buying the item. It's a scummy business practice, but you fell for it. You wilfully handed over $100+ to secure that mount, so as much as you dislike it, you only have yourself to blame. More to the point, because you and so many others cave so easily to this crap, you're ensuring this trend will continue.

AlienSlof wrote: »

There were many things I really wanted, including a storm horse and senche. I really would have liked those and would have paid money to get them - directly. That is a sale they've lost out on. Crate buyers are ensuring that the nicest stuff will remain behind the gamble wall.

Thanks for that.

Exactly. I didn't buy the storm crates, I didn't buy the elk mount, and I won't buy the wild hunt crates. I DID buy the ice wolf, and numerous other crown store mounts. It's up to each individual to decide whether the price is justified, but to continue financially supporting crown crates is to say "I'm happy with this system and want it to continue".

Duiwel