Why do Crown Crates penalize previous store customers?

charlmgn

Since the Crown Store opened, I've bought most of the items made available in it. Unfortunately, that has really penalized me since I bought some Crown Crates. Since about 90% of the drops from the Crates are consumables that are - by design - inferior to those available in game, that leaves the rare drop of a permanent item from the Crates, such as costumes, pets or mounts. If you, like me and everyone I know, have no use for the food and drink, you can sell them back for about 1/3 the number of Crown Gems they would cost of you purchased them. Also, since the rare permanent drops are completely random (not only those you haven't purchased before), if you get an item you've already purchased, it automatically goes back to the store and grants you - again - about 1/3 the number of Crown Gems it would take to buy the item. Because I've bought so many items from the store in the past (supporting ZOS in making the game I enjoy), I rarely get an item I don't already own, and have very few Crown Gems to enable me to replace all the lost "rare drops" it keeps sending me duplicates of.

I'm not asking for something for nothing. If I win a prize, let me have a prize. Either don't grant me an item I already own (since I couldn't purchase a duplicate of it even if I tried) by limiting the options to those items I don't own, or grant me the Crown Gems it would take for me to purchase a replacement of equal value. Oddly enough, when I submitted a ticket about this, because I felt it was either bugged or unbalanced, the response I got was to come here and post a forum thread. This in itself doesn't give me great confidence that ZOS is anxious to balance the Crown Crates. Make them worth buying and I'll keep giving you money for them. Otherwise, why waste my crowns on stacks of consumables I won't use and can't even trade for equivalent value?

Danikat

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

charlmgn

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

I know this is how they work, obviously, since I gave enough detail in my original post to illustrate that. The point of the Crown Store is to bring in money to ZOS. Players who have already purchased many Crown Store items already spend more than the casual Crown Store shopper. To penalize the group of people who already support the game more than others does not give as much value for the money spent to everyone. It's not about RNG at this point, since the more you support the company, the less likely you are to get something of value.

SydneyGrey

I totally agree with the OP. The Crown Crates are a much worse deal for people who have been playing the game for the past couple of years and have bought a lot from the Crown Store. They're a better deal for newer players who haven't gotten anything from the Crown Store before, or who have gotten very little from it. It would be wise of ZOS to address this and make them a better deal for more seasoned players.

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

Yes, but if they lose sales from anyone who's been playing this game for a year or more, then that's not really a great formula for making money. If they really wanted to make more money, they'd address this issue and make the Crates a better deal for people who already have a lot of Crown Store items. If they made the gems worth more than they are now, it would solve the issue.

Danikat

charlmgn wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

I know this is how they work, obviously, since I gave enough detail in my original post to illustrate that. The point of the Crown Store is to bring in money to ZOS. Players who have already purchased many Crown Store items already spend more than the casual Crown Store shopper. To penalize the group of people who already support the game more than others does not give as much value for the money spent to everyone. It's not about RNG at this point, since the more you support the company, the less likely you are to get something of value.

I didn't mean that's how they work as in "the mechanics of the process you described are correct" - I meant the end result of that process, which is frustrating you, is exactly what ZOS want from it.

It's annoying for you because it means you have to spend more money to get what you want. It's good for ZOS because you have to spend more money to get what you want.

Yes it does mean they'll lose some customers - just like the RNG nature of the crates means they lose some customers who would have bought those items if they were sold directly. But if, for example, half the people who already have everything in the crown store are put off, but the remaining half are spending 3 times as much as they would otherwise then ZOS is still making more profit by doing it this way.

Of course I have no idea what the actual numbers are. Even ZOS can only extrapolate from data on direct sales vs. crown crate sales (and some forum feedback). But annoying as it is I really wouldn't be surprised if they are making more money this way because for every person who refuses to buy into it there's someone who considers it a fraction of their beer money for the week and couldn't care less if it's a good deal or not.

The problem is there's no zero sum game here - a system like crown crates does not allow for both customers and vendors to get a good deal - it's one or the other, and unsurprisingly it tends to be the vendors who win.

charlmgn

Danikat wrote: »

I didn't mean that's how they work as in "the mechanics of the process you described are correct" - I meant the end result of that process, which is frustrating you, is exactly what ZOS want from it.

I don't think the intent of their implementation is to frustrate. I think it's just been improperly executed, which is why I've brought it up.

Danikat wrote: »

It's annoying for you because it means you have to spend more money to get what you want. It's good for ZOS because you have to spend more money to get what you want.

The result is not for me to spend more to get what I want. The result is for me (and many other players I've discussed this with in game) to stop buying them because there is a decrease in value proportional to the amount of items I've previously purchased.

Danikat wrote: »

Yes it does mean they'll lose some customers - just like the RNG nature of the crates means they lose some customers who would have bought those items if they were sold directly. But if, for example, half the people who already have everything in the crown store are put off, but the remaining half are spending 3 times as much as they would otherwise then ZOS is still making more profit by doing it this way.

As you mention later in your post, you have no basis for proposing any sales figures. Logically though, players who have already purchased most items available in the store are more likely to purchase additional items as long as they feel the purchase 1. has value, and 2. treats them fairly. The current situation with the Crown Crates does neither. It is unbalanced, and that is a cornerstone of every facet of the game, regardless of how you may wish to gloss over it with vague and unfounded guesses of ZOS's motives and profit figures.

Danikat wrote: »

Of course I have no idea what the actual numbers are. Even ZOS can only extrapolate from data on direct sales vs. crown crate sales (and some forum feedback). But annoying as it is I really wouldn't be surprised if they are making more money this way because for every person who refuses to buy into it there's someone who considers it a fraction of their beer money for the week and couldn't care less if it's a good deal or not.

Those who have purchased most items available in the Crown Store are obviously not concerned with pinching pennies, but if you're not concerned with getting value for what you spend there is no response necessary. Continue on your merry way, and have fun. Regardless of what percentage of my disposable income I wish to spend, I expect a fair value in exchange. Since this product does not currently offer that, but has the potential to do so if ZOS makes some minor - and fair - changes, I have brought it up.

What I really am interested in is a response by @ZOS_GinaBruno or another employee with actual data rather than speculation.

harvester100b16_ESO

I have spent £100's on items in the store since it started but I also see me being penalised for doing so with regards to crown crates I had some saved crowns so I got enough to get a lightning wolf mount but I'm going to be very hesitant on future crates as my last MMO SWTOR went down this gambling preying money route and that killed it for me.

Please ZoS rethink the way these crates work for your loyal long term people who spend money and at least give us better exchange rate for the gems

sadownik

harvester100b16_ESO wrote: »

I have spent £100's on items in the store since it started but I also see me being penalised for doing so with regards to crown crates I had some saved crowns so I got enough to get a lightning wolf mount but I'm going to be very hesitant on future crates as my last MMO SWTOR went down this gambling preying money route and that killed it for me.

Please ZoS rethink the way these crates work for your loyal long term people who spend money and at least give us better exchange rate for the gems

Lol you are amazing, really are. You write you saw SWTOR going that way and it killed it for you and yet you already proven another devs that this exact system works. And NOW you have problems with it?

Turelus

The simple answer? Because these crates are not in any way designed for the customer.

I have a screenshot somewhere of my first batch of crates where 4/5 cards were things I owned previously before crates were released. I felt pretty robbed, but don't worry! Wonderful gems very valuable! Or whatever that stupid cat says.

charlmgn

Turelus wrote: »

The simple answer? Because these crates are not in any way designed for the customer.

I have a screenshot somewhere of my first batch of crates where 4/5 cards were things I owned previously before crates were released. I felt pretty robbed, but don't worry! Wonderful gems very valuable! Or whatever that stupid cat says.

They are just designed with a flaw in them. To accept that without saying anything, or asking ZOS for an explanation, doesn't help to fix it. If ZOS responds with a comment such as "it's working as intended," as they've done on some things in the past, at least we'll know. If they respond with a statement saying they realize there's a problem, or that they're working to increase player satisfaction with the items, then that's at least what I'd like to hear. In a situation like that, I'd happily buy some more crates and hang onto them until ZOS says it's fixed.

Turelus

charlmgn wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The simple answer? Because these crates are not in any way designed for the customer.

I have a screenshot somewhere of my first batch of crates where 4/5 cards were things I owned previously before crates were released. I felt pretty robbed, but don't worry! Wonderful gems very valuable! Or whatever that stupid cat says.

They are just designed with a flaw in them. To accept that without saying anything, or asking ZOS for an explanation, doesn't help to fix it. If ZOS responds with a comment such as "it's working as intended," as they've done on some things in the past, at least we'll know. If they respond with a statement saying they realize there's a problem, or that they're working to increase player satisfaction with the items, then that's at least what I'd like to hear. In a situation like that, I'd happily buy some more crates and hang onto them until ZOS says it's fixed.

Don't expect anything from ZOS at all apart from announcements of the new seasons.

Players have done the maths on how bad they are for specific items, but fine for general random collection of items (@Enodoc I believe was the one with the info to link previous).

I was away from game for launch of these (part of the reason I walked) and when I came back and read the thread about them it was full of all the well constructed arguments as to why RNG boxes in cash shops are scum and no benefit to the consumer, ZOS just ignored that and carried on.

When it comes to the Crown Store there is no talking about it. There is a department at ZOS which figures the best way to extract your money for the least effort/love and they just keep on going.

There are loads of ways to make this better for us, but making it better for us makes less money for them so they're not going to change it at all.

charlmgn

Turelus wrote: »

There are loads of ways to make this better for us, but making it better for us makes less money for them so they're not going to change it at all.

There is a middle ground where both parties can receive some benefit. With no incentive, established players won't spend the money. With too high a drop rate, ZOS will effectively give items away.

But that gets away from the original point of my post, which is the fact that the crates do not evenly distribute rewards to all players. Since some players benefit more than others, it violates the principle of fair treatment to all players. Not whether or not players receive enough rewards from them in general.

Again, we can speculate all day long over their motives, but until we get an official response from @ZOS_GinaBruno or other employee, that's all it is: speculation.

bluemanjoe_ESO

charlmgn wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

I know this is how they work, obviously, since I gave enough detail in my original post to illustrate that.

if you know how the crown crates work then what's the point of this thread. The crown crates gets ESO money, people spend the money. If you don't like it don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it they will change the rate. Unfortunately lot of suckers in this world.

bluemanjoe_ESO

charlmgn wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The simple answer? Because these crates are not in any way designed for the customer.

I have a screenshot somewhere of my first batch of crates where 4/5 cards were things I owned previously before crates were released. I felt pretty robbed, but don't worry! Wonderful gems very valuable! Or whatever that stupid cat says.

They are just designed with a flaw in them. To accept that without saying anything, or asking ZOS for an explanation, doesn't help to fix it. If ZOS responds with a comment such as "it's working as intended," as they've done on some things in the past, at least we'll know. If they respond with a statement saying they realize there's a problem, or that they're working to increase player satisfaction with the items, then that's at least what I'd like to hear. In a situation like that, I'd happily buy some more crates and hang onto them until ZOS says it's fixed.

there is no bug lol

charlmgn wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

There are loads of ways to make this better for us, but making it better for us makes less money for them so they're not going to change it at all.

But that gets away from the original point of my post, which is the fact that the crates do not evenly distribute rewards to all players. Since some players benefit more than others, it violates the principle of fair treatment to all players.

guess what, life isn't fair.. deal with it. If ZOS wasn't making money on crates they would change the price. They don't need a forum post to tell them if they're making money or not.

Turelus

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

charlmgn wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

I know this is how they work, obviously, since I gave enough detail in my original post to illustrate that.

if you know how the crown crates work then what's the point of this thread. The crown crates gets ESO money, people spend the money. If you don't like it don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it they will change the rate. Unfortunately lot of suckers in this world.

I guess I am a sucker then? Because I wanted a lightning mount for my lightning themed sorcerer, and rather than just buy what I wanted I had to play their game.

This is what bugs me, people are demonised by the community and called whales for buying items to get something they want, when the issue is that ZOS are forcing people to play RNG games rather than just buy items like before.
I didn't want any of the other items I got, I just wanted that mount. I would have gladly paid the 5k Crowns I had to spend on boxes to just buy that item outright, but ZOS wouldn't let me.

charlmgn

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

charlmgn wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

This is how crown crates work, the entire point is to make you spend more than you would for a direct sale.

If crates were guaranteed to give you only drops you didn't already have, or if duplicates gave you enough gems to purchase another item of the same value everyone would only need to buy enough crates to get an item (any item) of the same value as the one they want. This way you have to buy at least 3 times that many.

I know this is how they work, obviously, since I gave enough detail in my original post to illustrate that.

if you know how the crown crates work then what's the point of this thread. The crown crates gets ESO money, people spend the money. If you don't like it don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it they will change the rate. Unfortunately lot of suckers in this world.

Re-read the post more carefully, and you'll understand the point of it. If not, I can't help.

havgin

so maybe the solution is to guarantee one item in every box is something you do not own? I'm not sure they could fix it this way but it might be better then raising the gem return rate to match the cost of a direct purchase.

SydneyGrey

charlmgn wrote: »

... With too high a drop rate, ZOS will effectively give items away ...

Only there are literally no items to give away, and it costs them nothing to make the crown crates a better deal for people. These are pixels in a game file that cost them NOTHING except what it cost them to pay their employees to make the item originally.

I know that you know that. I see what you're saying, but I'm just making a point. It would literally cost them nothing to give us more gems per item. They're making the crates a bad deal on purpose, and I just don't understand why. Maybe they think that if people are TOO happy, they won't buy from the crown store any more after a while? Weird way of thinking, if you ask me.

Danikat

I think what you're missing is that this discussion, and many others on various similar issues with crown crates already happened back when they were on the PTS. We're not disagreeing with you, we know it's a bad deal for various kinds of customers, but we also know ZOS know that too and we know (from the fact that they released them anyway) they don't care.

If you're curious this is the main topic about it, and there are many others in the PTS section: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/292545/official-discussion-thread-for-crown-crates/p1

Their response to the feedback was to promise to make a few token improvements, and then pull them from the PTS so the new version couldn't be tested and no one could provide feedback without spending real money to buy crates after they went live months later.

Here's the post where Gina outlined the planned changes:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3384769#Comment_3384769

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

I think they also updated the number of gems you get - it used to be each item gave you just under 1/3 of it's value, so you had to get 4 duplicate items of the same value to be able to buy one, and then you'd have a small number of gems left over.

That produced the current version of the crates.

At this point I suspect all we can do is vote with our wallets. If crown crates don't sell they may show some interest in determining why and seek to make them more appealing. Or they may just add a new colour of mounts and hope for the best.

ADarklore

So long-term players won't spend money... that's completely not true. IF there is something a long-term player wants, they WILL spend money to get it. If they don't, then they clearly didn't want it bad enough in the first place. I swore I'd never spend a cent on the Crown Crates, yet when I returned to the game after a couple months hiatus and saw the Storm Atronach Senche, I decided I would invest the money necessary until I either received the Senche or had enough Gems to buy it outright. Thankfully, the RNG goddess was looking out for me because I only had to buy two 15-packs to receive it. Yet, even if I hadn't, I would have spent the necessary money because it was something I wanted.

Danikat

ADarklore wrote: »

So long-term players won't spend money... that's completely not true. IF there is something a long-term player wants, they WILL spend money to get it. If they don't, then they clearly didn't want it bad enough in the first place. I swore I'd never spend a cent on the Crown Crates, yet when I returned to the game after a couple months hiatus and saw the Storm Atronach Senche, I decided I would invest the money necessary until I either received the Senche or had enough Gems to buy it outright. Thankfully, the RNG goddess was looking out for me because I only had to buy two 15-packs to receive it. Yet, even if I hadn't, I would have spent the necessary money because it was something I wanted.

Depends on the player.

There are several things in the crown crates I'd like to have and would happily have bought if they were sold directly. It really bothers me that I don't have some of them, like the clouded leopard cub and the red wolf pup. But I really hate gambling with real money so no matter how badly I want them I refuse to let myself buy them. Even if I knew it'd be cheaper to gamble I would not do it.

I suppose you'll say that means I don't want them enough, but to me how much I want the things in the crates and how much I do not want to gamble are two separate things, it's just that in this case they're in conflict.

Duiwel

+1 OP

holosoul

I don't like gambling, please let me buy crown gems directly.

bluemanjoe_ESO

SydneyGrey wrote: »

charlmgn wrote: »

... With too high a drop rate, ZOS will effectively give items away ...

Only there are literally no items to give away, and it costs them nothing to make the crown crates a better deal for people. These are pixels in a game file that cost them NOTHING except what it cost them to pay their employees to make the item originally.

I know that you know that. I see what you're saying, but I'm just making a point. It would literally cost them nothing to give us more gems per item. They're making the crates a bad deal on purpose, and I just don't understand why. Maybe they think that if people are TOO happy, they won't buy from the crown store any more after a while? Weird way of thinking, if you ask me.

lost money is a cost. By lowing the price they would be losing money so it does cost them something. The price they have it at is what they have researched that will make them the most profit. If their research changes they will change the price, but it seems like it's working for them.

holosoul

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

charlmgn wrote: »

... With too high a drop rate, ZOS will effectively give items away ...

Only there are literally no items to give away, and it costs them nothing to make the crown crates a better deal for people. These are pixels in a game file that cost them NOTHING except what it cost them to pay their employees to make the item originally.

I know that you know that. I see what you're saying, but I'm just making a point. It would literally cost them nothing to give us more gems per item. They're making the crates a bad deal on purpose, and I just don't understand why. Maybe they think that if people are TOO happy, they won't buy from the crown store any more after a while? Weird way of thinking, if you ask me.

lost money is a cost. By lowing the price they would be losing money so it does cost them something. The price they have it at is what they have researched that will make them the most profit. If their research changes they will change the price, but it seems like it's working for them.

I bought 15 crates to try it out, mostly wanted a single 40 crown gem item. I was unsatisfied with the outcome, although I got the one cheap thing I wanted in the end with the refund gems. As a result however, I will not buy more crates. I don't like the assigned drop rates. Any staff member who looked at my purchase history while my account is active will be able to assure you my lack of participation should be counted as a loss.

Slurg

Danikat wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So long-term players won't spend money... that's completely not true. IF there is something a long-term player wants, they WILL spend money to get it. If they don't, then they clearly didn't want it bad enough in the first place. I swore I'd never spend a cent on the Crown Crates, yet when I returned to the game after a couple months hiatus and saw the Storm Atronach Senche, I decided I would invest the money necessary until I either received the Senche or had enough Gems to buy it outright. Thankfully, the RNG goddess was looking out for me because I only had to buy two 15-packs to receive it. Yet, even if I hadn't, I would have spent the necessary money because it was something I wanted.

Depends on the player.

There are several things in the crown crates I'd like to have and would happily have bought if they were sold directly. It really bothers me that I don't have some of them, like the clouded leopard cub and the red wolf pup. But I really hate gambling with real money so no matter how badly I want them I refuse to let myself buy them. Even if I knew it'd be cheaper to gamble I would not do it.

I suppose you'll say that means I don't want them enough, but to me how much I want the things in the crates and how much I do not want to gamble are two separate things, it's just that in this case they're in conflict.

I agree with Danikat. There are items locked behind the crate that I really wanted. I have plenty of money to throw at the crates - but I won't. I will not support gambling real cash for cosmetic items in a virtual game. It's not a matter of not wanting the items enough at all. That's ridiculous. If I don't rob a bank, that means I must not want to have more money bad enough?

SydneyGrey

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

lost money is a cost. By lowing the price they would be losing money so it does cost them something.

I wasn't talking about them lowering the price. I was talking about letting us have more gems per item. It would literally cost them nothing.

Danikat

SydneyGrey wrote: »

bluemanjoe_ESO wrote: »

lost money is a cost. By lowing the price they would be losing money so it does cost them something.

I wasn't talking about them lowering the price. I was talking about letting us have more gems per item. It would literally cost them nothing.

Getting more gems per item means you need less duplicate items to buy the one/s you want, which means you will need to buy less crates, which means it costs you less to get the items you want. It's not direct but the end result is you spend less money on those items, which is the same as reducing the price.