Day one of double AP

Sanct16 · February 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

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Satiar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

What exactly do you expect a group size limit of 12 to achieve? For the guild-raids it won't make a difference and the pugzerg is mostly ungroup anyway.

Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.

I run the same build for 12 or 24. So does 99% of my raid.

I'd also be vastly more effective running two groups of 10-12 than 1 24man, only reason I don't is laziness and a sense of ESO tradition.

I agree you would. Good players with good builds that make good decisions will shine in that environment.

In environments like this though:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/125422031

If your damage dealers died going through the doorway, you couldnt just run along with the rest of the other groups being a healer still. Today you can. You could pop a remembrance and be in no party there at that doorway and make a clutch play for pact militia raid party 1-3.

@FENGRUSH

Do you actually think that the fight would have been any different if they were in groups of 12? You kept holding bottom floor without moving for too long so even if they were all ungrouped you would have died there when they ulti you.

geonsocal · March 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

Were you at the Alswell farm last night in that epic 3 way?? haha that was so much fun.

howdy @Moglijuana ...it's always so hard for me to accurately judge player numbers (man, people move fast

)...i was in that area from around 11pm to 1am (e.s.t. - i'm actually out in cali, but easiest to reference est)...

it sure seemed like there were at least 60 to 80 players in the area...does that sound about right to you?

also, now that i think of it - other than when 3 or 4 destro ults were going off at once close by me, i don't really remember much lag...

Satiar · March 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

show previous quotes

Satiar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

What exactly do you expect a group size limit of 12 to achieve? For the guild-raids it won't make a difference and the pugzerg is mostly ungroup anyway.

Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.

I run the same build for 12 or 24. So does 99% of my raid.

I'd also be vastly more effective running two groups of 10-12 than 1 24man, only reason I don't is laziness and a sense of ESO tradition.

I agree you would. Good players with good builds that make good decisions will shine in that environment.

In environments like this though:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/125422031

If your damage dealers died going through the doorway, you couldnt just run along with the rest of the other groups being a healer still. Today you can. You could pop a remembrance and be in no party there at that doorway and make a clutch play for pact militia raid party 1-3.

In general numbers are more crushing than they used to be because damage is just very high. I can disrupt and wipe pretty much any group with only a few people if I follow them around and bomb when they're vulnerable; likewise if you are attempting to fight vastly outnumbered, no matter how many you kill, killing them will likely put you in a vulnerable position that allows them to counterattack to devastating effect.

Moglijuana · March 2017

geonsocal wrote: »

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Moglijuana wrote: »

Were you at the Alswell farm last night in that epic 3 way?? haha that was so much fun.

howdy @Moglijuana ...it's always so hard for me to accurately judge player numbers (man, people move fast )...i was in that area from around 11pm to 1am (e.s.t. - i'm actually out in cali, but easiest to reference est)...

it sure seemed like there were at least 60 to 80 players in the area...does that sound about right to you?

also, now that i think of it - other than when 3 or 4 destro ults were going off at once close by me, i don't really remember much lag...

Yep, my yellow guild was there from like 11-1 am eastern. Somehow we managed to wedge ourselves in between the main red and blue zergs and just wiped the survivors of each battle on the lumbermill flag lol. Made like 400k ap in those couple of hours.

And you are right, there really was no lag, just some frame rate drops for the most part when a bunch of ultis got dropped.

Joy_Division · March 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Id hope if they ... limiting effects of party buffs and AOE friendly skills to the group. They need to add some incentive for new players to find a group and make it clear, but itd go a long way to 'fixing' performance and behavior if that is the real end goal here than any CP changes would.

Can't get behind this at all. You are not incentivizing healers and support characters to group up, you are forcing them to just so they can play their build.

I understand you despise it when a templar heals someone you are trying to kill, but too bad, it's Alliance Vs. Alliance, not Battelgrounds, and I'm going to assist my Alliance mate. It would be incredibly frustrating for people who play healers not to be able to do a damn thing on say on a castle keep all with coldfire raining in simply because they aren't in a specific group.

Decado · March 2017

Wow well this thread certainly took off (and kinda got off topic a little haha) I originally made this thread to just say I believe Zos prediction of an action packed cyrodill with plenty of huge fights was correct and I have to say 3 days in and I havnt changed my mind, I only really play coming up to and during EU prime time (5/6-10/11) is normally when i play and it's been non stop during those times honestly sometimes I didn't know which part of the map to go to,

I have to say I agree with @visionality in her post and say I found the same things, lag hasn't been as bad (still there in some fights) but getting better, although I still sometimes get huge frame rate drops when faced with some of the massive groups, admittedly that could be one of my add ons since I'm too lazy to disable when I switch from PvP to PvE and visa versa.

As for group sizes I honestly don't see it making a difference we have all seen the mega zergs running around with 80+ people and some of them are majority guild groups coordinating, if it doesn't stop them now it wouldn't if you dropped it down to 12.

Oh and also I have to state 100% I disagree with making heals/buffs etc group based only, to be honest when they changed rapid to be group based that pissed me off, I used to stand and breaches and spam it to let randoms who didn't know any better through breaches which helped us take keeps etc,

Also the sheer amount of times when I running solo do I find a alliance member being Xv1ed or "ganked" by a group of 3/6 stealth heros picking off 1 person at a time and I ALWAYS jump in when I see that *** happening, most of the time first thing I do is healing ward the guy trying to survive against multiple people, and there is no way in hell I shouldn't be able to do that, last thing the gankers need is yet another advantage, I can't tell you how many times I've ended up stuck somewhere like a keep tower or whatever with me and another random blue both outnumbered and we put up a good fight because we can work together even if in a limited non communication way.

Like was mentioned earlier this isn't battleground this is alliance vs alliance, I should be able to heal and buff members of my alliance group member or not, it's called teamwork and common decency, I get that it's frustrating when your trying to cast a healing ward on a group member and someone else's gets it so maybe a priority to group members would be good but certainly never a group member only thing.

Katahdin · March 2017

The loading screens on PC/NA TF last night were OP.

Our group experienced quite a bit of lag and some had moments when their skills would not work. At one point 2/3 of our group was kicked from the server.

So after day 3, I remain unconvinced that CP is causing all the lag. I also stand by my earlier comments that the CP system needs tweeking, not total elimination.

xeNNNNN · March 2017

Katahdin wrote: »

The loading screens on PC/NA TF last night were OP.

Our group experienced quite a bit of lag and some had moments when their skills would not work. At one point 2/3 of our group was kicked from the server.

So after day 3, I remain unconvinced that CP is causing all the lag. I also stand by my earlier comments that the CP system needs tweeking, not total elimination.

this ^

or just get better hardware for number crunching in the server.

Sorry but if their parent company can afford to sue Facebook over oculus rift they can afford to spend a little more on servers. With that in mind they have absolutely no excuse to fully invest in their own product other than greed.

Yes ZoS some people were paying attention to Zenimaxs court battles.

You do not ignore reoccuring problems with a product and say yeah we wont bother because we dont want to spend money and the board isnt being nice. Present your case, argue for it and improve the experience for your customers. Profit.

Malamar1229 · March 2017

Derra wrote: »

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Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.

im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.

as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Derra I usually agree with you over the years but I gotta agree with Rinaldo. I have been having a blast (however, i do think the lag is just as bad if not worse).
I think people die just as fast because they are just not built as defensively (i have 12% in Hardy and Ele defender) on CP, nor do they have the infinite resources. I think Vigor needs a makeover, but on no CP i havent noticed it being an issue.
I really think CP has been a crutch.

Malamar1229 · March 2017

id also be able to enjoy this much more if i wasnt rooted in place for what seems like an enternity everytime I steak inside alessia bridge, milegate, or inside a keep

Minalan · March 2017

Malamar1229 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.

im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.

as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Derra I usually agree with you over the years but I gotta agree with Rinaldo. I have been having a blast (however, i do think the lag is just as bad if not worse).
I think people die just as fast because they are just not built as defensively (i have 12% in Hardy and Ele defender) on CP, nor do they have the infinite resources. I think Vigor needs a makeover, but on no CP i havent noticed it being an issue.
I really think CP has been a crutch.

I'm with Derra on this.

Taking away CP does make the game more 'balanced'. But what if ZOS took away all weapons, skills, and armor, then gave everyone five health and a stick that does one point of damage? That would be even more 'balanced'. It wouldn't be any fun however.

I look forward to Monday when I can go back to ignoring 90% of resource and especially imperial city mobs. Egads imperial city sucks with no CP, and it's my favorite place. I'm there to fight players, not NPC's.

Derra · March 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Id hope if they ... limiting effects of party buffs and AOE friendly skills to the group. They need to add some incentive for new players to find a group and make it clear, but itd go a long way to 'fixing' performance and behavior if that is the real end goal here than any CP changes would.

Can't get behind this at all. You are not incentivizing healers and support characters to group up, you are forcing them to just so they can play their build.

I understand you despise it when a templar heals someone you are trying to kill, but too bad, it's Alliance Vs. Alliance, not Battelgrounds, and I'm going to assist my Alliance mate. It would be incredibly frustrating for people who play healers not to be able to do a damn thing on say on a castle keep all with coldfire raining in simply because they aren't in a specific group.

That´s the problem with a healing system where the most powerful healing is 1-button mashing smartheals - instead of being targeted.

People complain about it because it´s too easy compared to killing stuff.

crusnik91 · March 2017

@Derra
I read through the whole thread and I have to disagree with you. I believe it is very very much still possible to PVP in a small scale group (2 to 4) in the busiest campaign in PC EU with no CP. It really depends on a few factors imo.
1. Team composition
2. Leader
3. Surroundings/Terrain

All the group highlights are taken from just 2 days of PVP-ing in EU PC TF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmqtxxmrnDs

As you can see in the video my 4 man group would take on 10 players in open field. Of course we did use oils and sieges on the bridge fight but that is just due to the lack of aoe damage from my group conposition.
I do agree on the part where you mention it is harder with no CP. But that being said everyone else do have limited resource too so working with magicka steal or repentance/ shards are extremely useful if you run in a small scale group.
Anyways, 2 more days and you get your CP back in cyrodiil so no biggie

Derra · March 2017

crusnik91 wrote: »

@Derra
I read through the whole thread and I have to disagree with you. I believe it is very very much still possible to PVP in a small scale group (2 to 4) in the busiest campaign in PC EU with no CP. It really depends on a few factors imo.
1. Team composition
2. Leader
3. Surroundings/Terrain

All the group highlights are taken from just 2 days of PVP-ing in EU PC TF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmqtxxmrnDs

As you can see in the video my 4 man group would take on 10 players in open field. Of course we did use oils and sieges on the bridge fight but that is just due to the lack of aoe damage from my group conposition.
I do agree on the part where you mention it is harder with no CP. But that being said everyone else do have limited resource too so working with magicka steal or repentance/ shards are extremely useful if you run in a small scale group.
Anyways, 2 more days and you get your CP back in cyrodiil so no biggie

Have i said it´s impossible?

I think i only stated nonCP is favoring numbers even more than CP enables does and that i personally don´t find it enjoyable.

We even fought and won (1 win 1 loose) against the emp group on had i think - about 20v4. It was a horrible fight though - because it came with the realisation that the most effective thing i could do was alternate between darkdeal, healingward and encase.
Limited resources also mean focusing on only using the most important parts of a build. I don´t like that.
I want using all skills at my disposal at the right time on the right target to be the most effective playstyle. Not conserving resources to spam the same broken skill over and over again because eventually my enemies will run out of resources.

Last but not least on noCP every person in grp matters aswell as teamcomposition.
Classes that don´t work well together in CP are flatout impossible to duo nonCP.
Every player in grp makes a noticeable difference (way more than on CP - where i think it´s more a certain class making a noticeable impact).

L2Pissue · March 2017

you obviously did not see derra's skills.
4 streaks in a row, 3 shields up for no reason, mines as spammable in towers etc.
no way you could sustain that in no cp because you need l2p

Derra · March 2017

L2Pissue wrote: »

you obviously did not see derra's skills.
4 streaks in a row, 3 shields up for no reason, mines as spammable in towers etc.
no way you could sustain that in no cp because you need l2p

And you are?

Pallio · March 2017

So far.it seems like pvp has been the most fun and stable ever, they should keep it this way.