Day one of double AP

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  • Asgari
    Asgari
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    Having zero CP just makes any issues with classes even more blatantly obvious. You dont have the cp to make up for it. Besides that i HATE that your gear choices are even further limited in no cp.

    There are so many sets in this game but with no cp you are forced into using even less of them.
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
    Princess Asgari | Sorc
    Asgari | NB
    -Asgari | Stamplar
    Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
    Banner Down!
    No Mercy
    Youtube: Asgari
  • Minalan
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    Lol kinda true about clubbing seals @minalan though if No CP stuck around I hope more people would adapt.

    I was having a great time but understand how the experience could maybe suck for folks who are not prepared.

    I really enjoy the quicker pace of fights (I.e. People die faster). The lag is much better for me and it totally makes sense why ... I'm a lot more thoughtful about when I cast abilities versus spamming the crap out of certain things. Probably way fewer calculations.

    Here's something I want everyone to keep in mind. Pretty soon 'open season' will be done when double AP is over. There will be no more potato hordes to fight. No more groups of five people spamming light attacks or PVE AOE skills, then dying in two shots.

    It'll be just us. Experienced PVPers trying to cheese eachother with poisons, root spam, and Destro ultimate trains. Cheese is easier to deal with while having CP, I think that's why @Derra and I prefer it.

  • FENGRUSH
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    There will always be potato o:)
  • Minno
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »

    I think Im in line with you, 2-4 I consider small, 4-8 medium, 8-12 large group/raid. I dont really believe groups should go beyond 12, nor heals/buffs function outside if they really want to fix server calculations and reduce the benefit of stacking up. It depends though if were on CP or noCP though what we would target though. On nonCP, theres a lot of damage dealers we will focus first, like stamblades and some sorc builds, they can go easily. But a healer can be targeted legitimately with another DPS. On a CP campaign, the healers go last, and thats kind of the problem. I wouldnt bother targeting those templars, youre just begging for them to heal to full and have all efforts wasted.

    Theres a lot broken on nonCP. Medium is mostly useless of ganking or being in a group as a follow up DPS. Try to solo with it and it quickly becomes apparent why heavy is so damn good. Theres a lot of sets that shine way more there. But again, its not really balanced for it, but I prefer the flow of battles there. I hate having to ignore so many targets that are built to be tanky. I see those guys trying that on nonCP and you know you can wear down their stam before another ult is up.

    Yesterday was the first time I ran a full group, but with every campaign having a que, I think we knew what we were getting into. Cyro isnt perfect, but I find myself having to ignore and walk away from so many battles on a CP campaign. I dont like that, I just cant even live like that. I like to take any battle, and on no CP even when I know our chances are virtually 0 of winning, I know we can bang in on the enemy for a good hit.

    Id hope if they want to reduce calculations theyd seriously consider reducing group sizes, removing AOE caps entirely, and limiting effects of party buffs and AOE friendly skills to the group. They need to add some incentive for new players to find a group and make it clear, but itd go a long way to 'fixing' performance and behavior if that is the real end goal here than any CP changes would.

    This paragraph is a good recap on the changes we need to see for pvp. Completely agree.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Moglijuana
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    Minno wrote: »

    This paragraph is a good recap on the changes we need to see for pvp. Completely agree.

    +1
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
    Latest Vid:https://youtu.be/WZp_IdyrL6Q
  • Sanct16
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    What exactly do you expect a group size limit of 12 to achieve? For the guild-raids it won't make a difference and the pugzerg is mostly ungroup anyway.
    - EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
    AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
    EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
    AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
    AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
    EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
    AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
    AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
    EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
    EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
    DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
    DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB

    >320.000.000 AP
  • FENGRUSH
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    Sanct16 wrote: »
    What exactly do you expect a group size limit of 12 to achieve? For the guild-raids it won't make a difference and the pugzerg is mostly ungroup anyway.

    Youd see the difference when AOE busts tear through lines and springs/remembrance/BOL isnt covering a wide amount of options - only those in your group. Note; NO AOE CAPS (like having reactive 5pc bonus when standing next to enough potatoes).
  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Etaniel wrote: »

    More people that have no shame in Xv1ing you to the edges of the map? No thanks. I'd like to keep Cyrodiil populated with people who enjoy PvP.

    What is your concept of a healthy PVP population?

    It is currently a fraction of what it used to be. At launch we had 10 campaigns, each of them with much higher pop lock, all kinds of battles all over the map 24/7, even weeknights.

    Now on PC NA we have one high pop campaign, two that are usually kind of dead with not much going and I have no idea about BWB. Trueflame which has the highest population, is sometimes dead late at night Pacific time.

    This week suddenly we have a lot of players all over the place again, all night long on multiple campaigns. It's fun! Have you never played on a dead campaign where you have to run around trying to find somebody to fight?

    .
    Edited by IcyDeadPeople on February 28, 2017 7:11PM
  • Giraffon
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    You know what? I think I'll take this week off from PvP. All 8 of my characters already have Vigor so AP means nothing to me except rank which so far doesn't count for much of anything.
    Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!
  • Derra
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    Moglijuana wrote: »

    100 into ele defender, 50 into hardy, 50 into resistant in heavy impen. I do not take much damage in general. And I'm not even a tank =0.

    To reiterate my point. Said CP placements above allow me to do tons of stupid things while getting frags to the face, sitting in destro ulti's etc. Move into no CP. A little level CP 100 can destro ulti into me, and If i don't react quick enough or am low on resources, I die. Resulting in a faster TTK. End of story and the entire point of me commenting.

    I just realized you´re a magDK - we ignore those entirely :( i´m sorry for what zos did to your class.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Etaniel
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    What is your concept of a healthy PVP population?

    It is currently a fraction of what it used to be. At launch we had 10 campaigns, each of them with much higher pop lock, all kinds of battles all over the map 24/7, even weeknights.

    Now on PC NA we have one high pop campaign, two that are usually kind of dead with not much going and I have no idea about BWB. Trueflame which has the highest population, is sometimes dead late at night Pacific time.

    This week suddenly we have a lot of players all over the place again, all night long on multiple campaigns. It's fun! Have you never played on a dead campaign where you have to run around trying to find somebody to fight?

    That wasn't my point, I agree that it sucks having very few active campaigns. But I don't like it when the campaigns are filled with people who'se goal isn't to pvp, but just to unlock their vigor/caltrops etc and who have no respect for other players because they just see them as walking bags of AP.

    A guild group of PvPers who have a bit of decency won't chase a solo to the edges of the map, while some PvErs new to Cyro might be inclined to follow the herd wherever.

    Of course there's a place for everyone, and PvErs are welcome to join, but I don't want them to be the overwhelming majority of the Cyrodiil playerbase.
    Noricum | Kitesquad

    Youtube

    AR 41 DC DK

  • Minno
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    Sanct16 wrote: »
    What exactly do you expect a group size limit of 12 to achieve? For the guild-raids it won't make a difference and the pugzerg is mostly ungroup anyway.

    Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

    Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • FENGRUSH
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    Minno wrote: »

    Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

    Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.

    Yep - even beyond that, at large keep fights, if a healing spring hits inside a keep and ticks 4x and roughly 30-40 players are running around the flag where its at... its checking all 30-40 HP and seeing who is lowest to apply the heal. When you fire off regen, its checking all 40 in the area to see where it should apply. When you ward and hit someone outside of group, its checking to see who is lowest. Every buff you cast that applies minor <X> as a passive, its checking everybody..... all the time... times a few dozen per second on both sides.

    If it was *FORCED* to only ever check 12, its much easier to say if <X> or <Y> works in Cyrodiil to scale. Today, they cant do that. And as they always add more content and skills (which we want, and is good) it has negative impacts on Cyrodiil. Essentially, more is worse.. and it sucks. Beyond that, if there is no benefit to having 2 groups of 12 stacked on top of each other... why would they? Would they assume the risk for any reason outside of keeping their 12 together to function as a group? Rather than 2 raids of 24 functioning as a horde? Do you want strategy at all or just brute force and lag?
  • NBrookus
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    Minno wrote: »

    Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

    Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.

    Limiting group size alone won't stop the zerg guilds from just stacking more multiple groups of 12 instead of multiple groups of 24. And will have no effect on the ungrouped PUG zergs and zerg surfers. There were a good 150 players at one BRK battle on Haderus last night. At that point, "groups" are totally irrelevant other than coordinating specific maneuvers.

    It would only work if most buffs were limited to groups and possibly even healing prioritized group members.

    Another option is to revise the emp requirements to include alternate ways of getting/losing emp other than just controlling the ring keeps. Spitballing here: but what if emp was controlling all your faction home keeps plus 3 other ring keeps? Or all your home keeps plus any 5 enemy keeps? If suddenly Brindle/Dragon/Drake was strategic for more than just transit and home keep bonuses, they would attract more steady action and there'd be less last emp keep stacking.
  • Ishammael
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    Derra wrote: »

    I just realized you´re a magDK - we ignore those entirely :( i´m sorry for what zos did to your class.

    MDK is really dreadful. All of its problems are completely exacerbated on noCP.
  • FENGRUSH
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    NBrookus wrote: »

    Limiting group size alone won't stop the zerg guilds from just stacking more multiple groups of 12 instead of multiple groups of 24. And will have no effect on the ungrouped PUG zergs and zerg surfers. There were a good 150 players at one BRK battle on Haderus last night. At that point, "groups" are totally irrelevant other than coordinating specific maneuvers.

    It would only work if most buffs were limited to groups and possibly even healing prioritized group members.

    Another option is to revise the emp requirements to include alternate ways of getting/losing emp other than just controlling the ring keeps. Spitballing here: but what if emp was controlling all your faction home keeps plus 3 other ring keeps? Or all your home keeps plus any 5 enemy keeps? If suddenly Brindle/Dragon/Drake was strategic for more than just transit and home keep bonuses, they would attract more steady action and there'd be less last emp keep stacking.

    Try to zergsurf out of group without any heals on your bar. See if you get any heals. Chances are - you will get *a lot*. This is the point. If youre missing it, I dont know what to say.
  • WhiteMage
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    Derra wrote: »

    If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

    NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

    But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again. :wink:

    You're doing it wrong.
    The generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?
  • NBrookus
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »

    Try to zergsurf out of group without any heals on your bar. See if you get any heals. Chances are - you will get *a lot*. This is the point. If youre missing it, I dont know what to say.

    Totally agree. Thanks for that mutagen spam where I'm stealthed up. :/ And when I'm healing, it's frustrating have my heals go to randoms instead of group member X who desperately needs it.

    I mostly avoid zerg surfing but this week it's almost mandatory unless you want to constantly steamrolled.
  • Satiar
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    Minno wrote: »

    Instead of the server checking how many of your 24+ players were hit by a buff, it would cap it to 12 and thus, reducing the need of the server to keep checking on players outside of this.

    Also limiting the group size means you need to organize your builds around 12 people not 24 player stacks.

    I run the same build for 12 or 24. So does 99% of my raid.

    I'd also be vastly more effective running two groups of 10-12 than 1 24man, only reason I don't is laziness and a sense of ESO tradition.
    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
    Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost



  • Minno
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    NBrookus wrote: »

    Limiting group size alone won't stop the zerg guilds from just stacking more multiple groups of 12 instead of multiple groups of 24. And will have no effect on the ungrouped PUG zergs and zerg surfers. There were a good 150 players at one BRK battle on Haderus last night. At that point, "groups" are totally irrelevant other than coordinating specific maneuvers.

    It would only work if most buffs were limited to groups and possibly even healing prioritized group members.

    Another option is to revise the emp requirements to include alternate ways of getting/losing emp other than just controlling the ring keeps. Spitballing here: but what if emp was controlling all your faction home keeps plus 3 other ring keeps? Or all your home keeps plus any 5 enemy keeps? If suddenly Brindle/Dragon/Drake was strategic for more than just transit and home keep bonuses, they would attract more steady action and there'd be less last emp keep stacking.

    Who said anything about stopping? AOE cap removal+ nCP with a will timed ulti burst will do that.

    The reduced group size is too get players to start thinking about how they play pvp. And to help reduce the calculations needed. If group buffs are limited for 12 man raid only, the second raid that you stack with need the same leadership and same build makeup.

    Sure you can stack numbers, but in nCP this proves bad and the group's that move as 12 have longer survivability than the 24 zergs pressing a few buttons; it's about pvp identity and the ability to play the game as fair as possible.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Etaniel wrote: »

    That wasn't my point, I agree that it sucks having very few active campaigns. But I don't like it when the campaigns are filled with people who'se goal isn't to pvp, but just to unlock their vigor/caltrops etc and who have no respect for other players because they just see them as walking bags of AP.

    A guild group of PvPers who have a bit of decency won't chase a solo to the edges of the map, while some PvErs new to Cyro might be inclined to follow the herd wherever.

    Of course there's a place for everyone, and PvErs are welcome to join, but I don't want them to be the overwhelming majority of the Cyrodiil playerbase.

    Are we playing the same game? On EU server, groups are polite and don't kill solo players? In NA I get rolled over constantly and teabagged and honestly doesn't even bother me, I just respawn and ride back. At least when we have lots of battles all over the place, if I die I can quickly find some more trouble to get into.

    Incidentally how do you imagine all the existing players in Cyrodiil ended up here? Some have been here since beta, but many initially came just to get vigor or some PVE skill, got hooked and never left. Maybe they are still looking for the wayshrine =P
  • Moglijuana
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    Derra wrote: »

    I just realized you´re a magDK - we ignore those entirely :( i´m sorry for what zos did to your class.

    Don't be sorry. I do very well =D.
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
    Latest Vid:https://youtu.be/WZp_IdyrL6Q
  • FENGRUSH
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    Satiar wrote: »

    I run the same build for 12 or 24. So does 99% of my raid.

    I'd also be vastly more effective running two groups of 10-12 than 1 24man, only reason I don't is laziness and a sense of ESO tradition.

    I agree you would. Good players with good builds that make good decisions will shine in that environment.

    In environments like this though:


    If your damage dealers died going through the doorway, you couldnt just run along with the rest of the other groups being a healer still. Today you can. You could pop a remembrance and be in no party there at that doorway and make a clutch play for pact militia raid party 1-3.
  • Minno
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »

    I agree you would. Good players with good builds that make good decisions will shine in that environment.

    In environments like this though:


    If your damage dealers died going through the doorway, you couldnt just run along with the rest of the other groups being a healer still. Today you can. You could pop a remembrance and be in no party there at that doorway and make a clutch play for pact militia raid party 1-3.

    This is what I was basically going to write next. Because the healing can jump between groups, you can escape many mistakes. Currently having two 12 man raids is the same as one because if one wipes the other can carry the healing; ultimately extending the fight and adding additional server calculations that are not needed.

    Forcing the group limit only goes hand in hand in reviewing how groups recieve these buffs/debuffs. And discussing what that means for groups to make it an enjoyable pvp experience for all.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • visionality
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    Guys, contrary to all the complaints in this thread, I actually enjoy this no-cp-week!

    Some assesments from my side:

    WAY less lag in tf!!! Even when deffing the last emp keep with everybody from every alliance there, my ping NEVER went higher than 320. Before this week, 999+ would have been normal.I can't say why some players still complain about lag (addons?), but mine is gone - not totally, but a lot. I have never died from a non-existent shield that I casted 2 seconds ago and that still didn't pop due to the lag.

    Fights are shorter but also more enjoyable. Heavy tanks either loose their crazy damage mitigation or they are nothing but walking stones (annoying, but harmless and good to fill ultimates). The perma-healers run out of magica. All of a sudden, skill IS a factor again despite the proc-sets.

    A lot more movement on the map. Due to the shorter fights, the map-dynamic is much higher. Endless fights over 1 stupid outpost are not totally gone, but they are not typical anymore.

    Cold harbor weapons and sieges in general are op. TF-players learned to focus siege weapons on the same target a long time ago. Now no heal/purge can help anymore, a triple-hit is insta-death to everybody. Same about entering keeps or outposts - the unavoidable damage is too high imo.

    Many skills are just too expensive for their costs. It's self-explanatory, I think.


    If I had to choose between old lag and new no-cp, I would prefer the no-cp, tbh. It requires some adjustements in playstile, but I really enjoy being able to count on my skills again instead of being dependent on how well (and quickly) the server handles my requests. Or not.
  • geonsocal
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    loved seeing everyone dropping like flies (myself included)...

    on ps4/na last night we had some excellent AvAvA action at the aleswell farm (always appreciate AD making the trip north)...probably had somewhere in the range of 60 to 80 players in the area for at least a couple of hours...

    it was kinda funny - not sure if it was "planned", but it definitely seems like we were all playing capture the flag...just taking turns at the flag and destroying the tower there...

    so nice to see most folks not camping for d-ticks...at one point got 23k for taking the farm...

    sure at times it can be hard to visually recognize the destro ult before it kills ya - but, if there is a group of players heading your way - chances are very good they're trying to bring the pain with their "eye of whatever"...

    watch the flow of battle, do some quick back stepping when you see a surge, let them spend their ult - then return the favor and clean up :)
    PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place
  • Derra
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    WhiteMage wrote: »

    You're doing it wrong.

    Or maybe your enemies are not doing it right?

    Honestly though what am i doing wrong?
    That i can spam dark conversion while also being spammed with crushing shock and the cast still goes through on a 50:50 chance - and if i get interrupted nothing happens because the dmg is too pitiful to be threatening?
    Edited by Derra on February 28, 2017 8:36PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • cdobratz
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    Having zero CP just makes any issues with classes even more blatantly obvious. You dont have the cp to make up for it. Besides that i HATE that your gear choices are even further limited in no cp.

    There are so many sets in this game but with no cp you are forced into using even less of them.

    I agree with the sentiment about limiting possible gear sets, but CP is also responsible for cancer builds, but if it helps performance out AND gets rid of the cancer builds I'd take the sacrifice.
    NA-PC
    Calamity Ganon - DC Magic Sorc
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    dafack - AD Magic NB
  • RinaldoGandolphi
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    Having zero CP just makes any issues with classes even more blatantly obvious. You dont have the cp to make up for it. Besides that i HATE that your gear choices are even further limited in no cp.

    There are so many sets in this game but with no cp you are forced into using even less of them.

    Playing Devil's Advocate,

    One could argue having all those CP bonuses makes the class issues even worse. The best example being a few Sword and Board Templars in a group...What it takes to kill one of those guys(without Negate) is incredible..they would have to be asleep at the keyboard to die.

    why is it these immortal tank Templar healers that nothing short of Negate + Root spam will kill on a CP campaign can be dealt with and killed like anyone else on No-CP?

    Because resource management keeps them from being gods. When they get focused on by 2-3 people in a Non-CP campaign they are out of stam to block quickly, and they have to wave their hand 3-4 times with Breath of Life to get back to full health instead of just one cast. Making them mortal and able to be killed.

    As i have said, No-CP is far from perfect, but the Champ System needs a complete Overhaul. The percentages need to be reduced by 75%....25% is way too much should be 7%, 16% is way too much should be like 6%.....all these percentages are too high, and you should only be able to invest in say Regen or Cost reduction but not both...if you put points in Stam Regen, then Stam Cost reduction, sneak cost reduction, tumbling, sprint cost reduction, etc should be off limits and not able to put points there.

    the CP system has no compromises, you give up nothing, and its worse now that everyone has 600 points. If they were willing to revamp the CP system completely and lower those percentages to reasonable levels and prevent folks from being able to invest in everything id be fine with it. its doubtful however that comes to pass :(
    Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
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    Co-GM - MVP



    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Moglijuana
    Moglijuana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    geonsocal wrote: »
    loved seeing everyone dropping like flies (myself included)...

    on ps4/na last night we had some excellent AvAvA action at the aleswell farm (always appreciate AD making the trip north)...probably had somewhere in the range of 60 to 80 players in the area for at least a couple of hours...

    it was kinda funny - not sure if it was "planned", but it definitely seems like we were all playing capture the flag...just taking turns at the flag and destroying the tower there...

    so nice to see most folks not camping for d-ticks...at one point got 23k for taking the farm...

    sure at times it can be hard to visually recognize the destro ult before it kills ya - but, if there is a group of players heading your way - chances are very good they're trying to bring the pain with their "eye of whatever"...

    watch the flow of battle, do some quick back stepping when you see a surge, let them spend their ult - then return the favor and clean up :)

    Were you at the Alswell farm last night in that epic 3 way?? haha that was so much fun.
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
    Latest Vid:https://youtu.be/WZp_IdyrL6Q
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