Day one of double AP

Malamar1229

Hard to tell when server queues were like 200 last night, but im pretty sure the "worse lag" has to do with more ppl playing suddenly.

I havent played on AZ in a long time. I forgot how fun no CP can be. I didn't have any 1 shots last night out of stealth, and far less of the infinite resource rock humpers.

Derra

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

Ghost-Shot

Derra wrote: »

The zergfights are not normal - that´s the thing @Decado

People die like flies in keepfights in situations where they previously did not drop HP. The zergfights end superfast compared to cp enabled campaign. There was not one stalled keepfights the whole afternoon. Everything was breach breach keep gone.

That was rare on trueflame before today.

I played there every day and i also zergsurfed quite a bit when playing casually. It´s a night and day difference in playerbehavior and ability.

I'm finding an entirely different situation on NA, the emp dethrone on TF yesterday afternoon was a fairly long engagement with probably 150 players present at a minimum, all three factions were there with 2 scrolls at one point. I had pretty poor performance when I first logged on yesterday afternoon but after I reset my router and restarted my PC it was great, the load screens were atrocious though.

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

If you have no sustain on no CP you will not be effective. Smaller scale fighting is better outside of poisons being more effective, but you can alleviate this issue by killing targets more quickly and avoiding drawn out draining with LOS.

CP campaigns are infinite sustain and I dont know how you kill larger groups effectively, competent or not - templar healers layered in groups are unbelievable to kill. They must not even be present at the keyboard if youre killing them on CP.

Moglijuana

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

If you have no sustain on no CP you will not be effective. Smaller scale fighting is better outside of poisons being more effective, but you can alleviate this issue by killing targets more quickly and avoiding drawn out draining with LOS.

CP campaigns are infinite sustain and I dont know how you kill larger groups effectively, competent or not - templar healers layered in groups are unbelievable to kill. They must not even be present at the keyboard if youre killing them on CP.

Lmao. So true.

Minno

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

If you have no sustain on no CP you will not be effective. Smaller scale fighting is better outside of poisons being more effective, but you can alleviate this issue by killing targets more quickly and avoiding drawn out draining with LOS.

CP campaigns are infinite sustain and I dont know how you kill larger groups effectively, competent or not - templar healers layered in groups are unbelievable to kill. They must not even be present at the keyboard if youre killing them on CP.

Or that one EP group on TF that are all Templars lol.

Derra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

If you have no sustain on no CP you will not be effective. Smaller scale fighting is better outside of poisons being more effective, but you can alleviate this issue by killing targets more quickly and avoiding drawn out draining with LOS.

CP campaigns are infinite sustain and I dont know how you kill larger groups effectively, competent or not - templar healers layered in groups are unbelievable to kill. They must not even be present at the keyboard if youre killing them on CP.

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

Pallio

Excellent idea,.they should keep it this way, PvP is actually fun again and feels worth playing with higher rewards and level playing feild.

IcyDeadPeople

Pallio wrote: »

Excellent idea,.they should keep it this way, PvP is actually fun again and feels worth playing with higher rewards and level playing feild.

They could simply increase the AP on Azura's star. I imagine that would encourage more people to play there.

Derra

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Excellent idea,.they should keep it this way, PvP is actually fun again and feels worth playing with higher rewards and level playing feild.

They could simply increase the AP on Azura's star. I imagine that would encourage more people to play there.

Why does noCP need encouragement?

Just let people play where and how they want?

RinaldoGandolphi

FENGRUSH wrote: »

If you have no sustain on no CP you will not be effective. Smaller scale fighting is better outside of poisons being more effective, but you can alleviate this issue by killing targets more quickly and avoiding drawn out draining with LOS.

CP campaigns are infinite sustain and I dont know how you kill larger groups effectively, competent or not - templar healers layered in groups are unbelievable to kill. They must not even be present at the keyboard if youre killing them on CP.

ROTFL

@FENGRUSH

Just nailed it here man! How true!

IcyDeadPeople

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Excellent idea,.they should keep it this way, PvP is actually fun again and feels worth playing with higher rewards and level playing feild.

They could simply increase the AP on Azura's star. I imagine that would encourage more people to play there.

Why does noCP need encouragement?

Just let people play where and how they want?

I think it would help encourage PVE'ers to play. There are tons of them in Cyrodiil right now.

Maybe once per month some kind of double AP weekend across the board in all campaigns.

Etaniel

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Excellent idea,.they should keep it this way, PvP is actually fun again and feels worth playing with higher rewards and level playing feild.

They could simply increase the AP on Azura's star. I imagine that would encourage more people to play there.

Why does noCP need encouragement?

Just let people play where and how they want?

I think it would help encourage PVE'ers to play. There are tons of them in Cyrodiil right now.

Maybe once per month some kind of double AP weekend across the board in all campaigns.

More people that have no shame in Xv1ing you to the edges of the map? No thanks. I'd like to keep Cyrodiil populated with people who enjoy PvP.

olsborg

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I spent about 2hrs or so playing this evening.

While I appreciate the spirit of the test and hope that ZoS is able to gain meaningful data.... I am with @Derra. I hate noCP gameplay. It's horrible with the current gear, poisons, and zergs. Utterly atrocious.

No CP is a shock. Losing 25% damage, 16% cost reduction, 25% regen, 25% dodge and break free, 25% crit damage, etc takes some getting used to.

No CP shows all the problems with the current CP system (everyone can be a house) and that's simply not good for the game long term.

I was saying for quite awhile that resource cost poisons can't stay as they are for no cp, the 4-5k Stam , Mag, and health lost when cp started needs return, and a few other tweaks for no cp.

TF with CP was the zergiest campaign ever. Just stack eye of the storm with grothdar in a ball group with others and CP and chase down 1-3 guys with 20 choo choo and call it fun pvp.

I have no desire to return to cp pvp and im staying in Azura. The fights are far better, no one has infinite sustain, insane damage, or stupid tankiness. Pvp feels much more fair. I'll use my CP in pve when I do dungeons, trials, and VMA.

If they made a few solid tweaks no cp would be perfect

Entirely subjective.

I don´t enjoy noCP because it punishes soloing and smallgrps far more than it does with large grps.
Furthermore I can´t customize builds there but simply have the choice between 3 sets realisticly and i´m still limited compared to other specs and classes.
Proccsets are far better on nonCP than they are on CP.
It´s biased towards pure dmg builds (because they loose much less with no CP than sustain builds do).

For me pvp on noCP feels much more biased towards outnumbering opponents than it does on CP (imo it´s a joke that this is even possible).

I have no desire to ever play nonCP pvp again after this farce of a test is over.

My opinion aswell.

Celas_Dranacea

Minalan wrote: »

Alright one thing to keep in mind, this whole event is all about one thing and one thing only:

Experienced PVPers clubbing baby seals to death in Cyrodiil.. This event has drawn so many new people to play that never step foot in PVP, for the promises of easy riches and quick AP. And it's hunting season for those of us who live there.

I had one guy trying to kill me by spamming elemental blockade and liquid lightning. I had to literally stop and watch for a minute while he tried so hard to keep his dots on me...

This is going to be fun while it lasts, and it's a great change of pace, but I wouldn't want this permanently.

Lol kinda true about clubbing seals @minalan though if No CP stuck around I hope more people would adapt.

I was having a great time but understand how the experience could maybe suck for folks who are not prepared.

I really enjoy the quicker pace of fights (I.e. People die faster). The lag is much better for me and it totally makes sense why ... I'm a lot more thoughtful about when I cast abilities versus spamming the crap out of certain things. Probably way fewer calculations.

RinaldoGandolphi

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

Derra

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

Moglijuana

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

Derra

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

RinaldoGandolphi

Derra wrote: »

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

And thats fine. You know i'll always be respectful towards you.

RinaldoGandolphi

Moglijuana wrote: »

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

this is it right here. In CP you can make mistakes and still win. Sypher had a huge rant about this about 8 months ago talking about it, and why dueling sucked.

There is a far smaller margin for error on No-CP. Just re-casting a shield when you don't need to can cause you to lose. Just dodge rolling one time when you don't need to = dead. Yes, it makes 1vX harder but thats ok, 1vX shouldn't be easy anyways, you should have outplay your opponent.

Again i know folks won't always agree, but go duel on Azura's Star, see for yourself how different it is 1v1 or 2v2 vs CP. it feels more balanced overall. Try it for yourself. Don't take me at my word.

Minalan

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Hard to tell when server queues were like 200 last night, but im pretty sure the "worse lag" has to do with more ppl playing suddenly.

I havent played on AZ in a long time. I forgot how fun no CP can be. I didn't have any 1 shots last night out of stealth, and far less of the infinite resource rock humpers.

Server queues don't contribute to lag, TF is always pop locked every night and queues are usually around 20 players. Having 200 people waiting instead of 20 doesn't make it more 'full'.

It was a fun change of pace, I made one small change to my skill loadout and it's been destroying people.

Moglijuana

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Um, no. I get hit harder, and more consistently in no CP when compared to CP. Because everyone is doing the same damage as their counterparts for the most part. It's not possible to stack 25% into a damage mitigation against certain specs anymore and resource management matters more than ever.

In CP campaigns you will literally see people on the ground out of stamina getting hit and somehow they can stay alive if all their CP points are placed to counter w.e is currently hitting them. No CP, if you're on the ground helpless, ANYTHING can kill you.

FENGRUSH

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

Pretty much nailed it. You dont have as much room for error or overextending in non CP. As mentioned, fights are not endless. I can get in so many fights on CP campaign on stream where I sit there sighing 3-4minutes in realizing niether of us are going to die and we simply walk away. And both are invested heavily into offensive builds - its just managing resources and having a minimal amount of survival requires so little.

I do think soloing is oppressive and brutal on nonCP. There are very few builds that can make this a reality - but the game has not been balanced around it in a long time. However the small group play, is absolutely awesome, and rewarding when compared to CP campaigns where I wouldnt bother crashing into a large group of templars that have ample amount of time to react and instantly heal people to full in one click. Theres no point using things like reverb. Youre only killing people who cannot react at all in a timely fashion with heavy burst while maintaining an infinite sustain and only dying to stupid mechanics like gap closer spam freezing your character.

I respect your point of preference @derra on what you like to play on, but you dont lose 50% of your damage on players in nonCP and them lose nothing either. If youre dumping damage into them, theyre spending a lot of resources to stay alive. If you dont manage to kill them and you dont have sustain, you will die afterwards. If you have a manageable level of sustain and make good choices and choose proper targets, you will win. You can actually pressure templars down on nonCP and use debuffs like defile. Try using major defile on CP campaign - what an absolute slap in the face. Its worthless - along with so many other mechanics that used to be relevant. It wasnt as bad until all of the new gear choices allowed you to build new levels of sustain and survival together. But that is a reality since Tamriel One.

If you want a good sorc build, use amber/bsw/pirate(or other monster sets) with dark conversion and stam mundus. Mag sorc is fierce in no CP when played right. You mentioned stam sorcs not having sustain issues? They sustain well but.. it aint some magical formula. When Im making a group, I have no place for a stam sorc. I run a support build and let the mag sorcs do the heavy lifting. Mag sorcs and mag temps are king of the meta.

Derra

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Um, no. I get hit harder, and more consistently in no CP when compared to CP. Because everyone is doing the same damage as their counterparts for the most part. It's not possible to stack 25% into a damage mitigation against certain specs anymore and resource management matters more than ever.

In CP campaigns you will literally see people on the ground out of stamina getting hit and somehow they can stay alive if all their CP points are placed to counter w.e is currently hitting them. No CP, if you're on the ground helpless, ANYTHING can kill you.

Sorry but you need to get better at math.

25% dmg specced dmg reduction vs 25% specced dmg will result in 7.5% less dmg compared to 0% dmg reduction vs 0% dmg increase.
However you don´t figure in critdmg, critpassive and statgain from CP. The counter to those require the same points as dmg reduction. As a result you can get less dmg reduction from CP than you can gain dmg increases.
Also basically nobody specs 25% into one reduction because it leaves them vulnerable towards other specs (ie if you dump everything into magic dmg reduction our stamblade is gonna have a great time with you).

Lastly you can simply have a look at cp dmg to hp ratio and noncp dmg to hp ratio.
On CP i can hit for 14k fragments on targets with 22k hp.
On nonCP i hit 8k fragments on targets with 20k HP.

I kill people a lot faster on CP - unless they´re only setup to tank. In which case i comfortably ignore them.

Derra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I do think soloing is oppressive and brutal on nonCP. There are very few builds that can make this a reality - but the game has not been balanced around it in a long time. However the small group play, is absolutely awesome, and rewarding when compared to CP campaigns where I wouldnt bother crashing into a large group of templars that have ample amount of time to react and instantly heal people to full in one click. Theres no point using things like reverb. Youre only killing people who cannot react at all in a timely fashion with heavy burst while maintaining an infinite sustain and only dying to stupid mechanics like gap closer spam freezing your character.

I honestly think we have a different definition of smallgrp play.
We usually play with two or three people. We exceed 4 maybe once a month (our grp is so small that 95% of the time we play without a templar and i´m a support dmg hybrid on sorc - a role impossible to fill on nonCP).

I think EU and NA are vastly different in playstyle just judging from your (and other NA players) videos. You can not pressure a healplar here. It´s wasted and gets you killed. If you don´t pressure dmgdealers they tear you apart.
On the server we play on you have to always pressure DDs in the process eliminating a source of dmg and keeping the healer healing.

Edit: I´m playing with amber willp pirate on noCP. I don´t think it´s a good setup - but there are hardly any choices.
Also we have a very mobile playstyle (because otherwise you will always die to zergs) - which is basically impossible on nonCP. Our heavy lifter dmg dealer is our stamblade.

Moglijuana

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Um, no. I get hit harder, and more consistently in no CP when compared to CP. Because everyone is doing the same damage as their counterparts for the most part. It's not possible to stack 25% into a damage mitigation against certain specs anymore and resource management matters more than ever.

In CP campaigns you will literally see people on the ground out of stamina getting hit and somehow they can stay alive if all their CP points are placed to counter w.e is currently hitting them. No CP, if you're on the ground helpless, ANYTHING can kill you.

Sorry but you need to get better at math.

25% dmg specced dmg reduction vs 25% specced dmg will result in 7.5% less dmg compared to 0% dmg reduction vs 0% dmg increase.
However you don´t figure in critdmg, critpassive and statgain from CP. The counter to those require the same points as dmg reduction. As a result you can get less dmg reduction from CP than you can gain dmg increases.
Also basically nobody specs 25% into one reduction because it leaves them vulnerable towards other specs.

Lastly you can simply have a look at cp dmg to hp ratio and noncp dmg to hp ratio.
On CP i can hit for 14k fragments on targets with 22k hp.
On nonCP i hit 8k fragments on targets with 20k HP.

I kill people a lot faster on CP - unless they´re only setup to tank. In which case i comfortably ignore them.

I'm pretty sure I did no math? It was more of a hypothetical statement to explain how certain people can stay alive easier against certain specs in CP campaigns. 15% - 25% in any defense tree is a large portion of mitigation which is something you don't see in non CP.

Tanks actually die in non-CP. Again...it's all about resource management which in turn, shortens the amount of time it takes for them to die. CP carries people, whether it be offensively or defensively. When you remove that crutch, fights all come down to timing the correct burst WAYYYY more than on CP campaigns. And you have to time it quickly, or else you too will be out of resources.

P.S. I actually stack 25% in elemental defender, soooooo, wrong again.

Derra

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Um, no. I get hit harder, and more consistently in no CP when compared to CP. Because everyone is doing the same damage as their counterparts for the most part. It's not possible to stack 25% into a damage mitigation against certain specs anymore and resource management matters more than ever.

In CP campaigns you will literally see people on the ground out of stamina getting hit and somehow they can stay alive if all their CP points are placed to counter w.e is currently hitting them. No CP, if you're on the ground helpless, ANYTHING can kill you.

Sorry but you need to get better at math.

25% dmg specced dmg reduction vs 25% specced dmg will result in 7.5% less dmg compared to 0% dmg reduction vs 0% dmg increase.
However you don´t figure in critdmg, critpassive and statgain from CP. The counter to those require the same points as dmg reduction. As a result you can get less dmg reduction from CP than you can gain dmg increases.
Also basically nobody specs 25% into one reduction because it leaves them vulnerable towards other specs.

Lastly you can simply have a look at cp dmg to hp ratio and noncp dmg to hp ratio.
On CP i can hit for 14k fragments on targets with 22k hp.
On nonCP i hit 8k fragments on targets with 20k HP.

I kill people a lot faster on CP - unless they´re only setup to tank. In which case i comfortably ignore them.

P.S. I actually stack 25% in elemental defender, soooooo, wrong again.

Well then you either take enourmous critdmg or physical dmg builds destroy you. We have both types of dmg in our grp. One of them will have an advantage.

Your hypothetical statement is only true for tanks. But tanks are irrelevant in esos meta.

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I do think soloing is oppressive and brutal on nonCP. There are very few builds that can make this a reality - but the game has not been balanced around it in a long time. However the small group play, is absolutely awesome, and rewarding when compared to CP campaigns where I wouldnt bother crashing into a large group of templars that have ample amount of time to react and instantly heal people to full in one click. Theres no point using things like reverb. Youre only killing people who cannot react at all in a timely fashion with heavy burst while maintaining an infinite sustain and only dying to stupid mechanics like gap closer spam freezing your character.

I honestly think we have a different definition of smallgrp play.
We usually play with two or three people. We exceed 4 maybe once a month (our grp is so small that 95% of the time we play without a templar and i´m a support dmg hybrid on sorc - a role impossible to fill on nonCP).

I think EU and NA are vastly different in playstyle just judging from your (and other NA players) videos. You can not pressure a healplar here. It´s wasted and gets you killed. If you don´t pressure dmgdealers they tear you apart.
On the server we play on you have to always pressure DDs in the process eliminating a source of dmg and keeping the healer healing.

Edit: I´m playing with amber willp pirate on noCP. I don´t think it´s a good setup - but there are hardly any choices.

I think Im in line with you, 2-4 I consider small, 4-8 medium, 8-12 large group/raid. I dont really believe groups should go beyond 12, nor heals/buffs function outside if they really want to fix server calculations and reduce the benefit of stacking up. It depends though if were on CP or noCP though what we would target though. On nonCP, theres a lot of damage dealers we will focus first, like stamblades and some sorc builds, they can go easily. But a healer can be targeted legitimately with another DPS. On a CP campaign, the healers go last, and thats kind of the problem. I wouldnt bother targeting those templars, youre just begging for them to heal to full and have all efforts wasted.

Theres a lot broken on nonCP. Medium is mostly useless of ganking or being in a group as a follow up DPS. Try to solo with it and it quickly becomes apparent why heavy is so damn good. Theres a lot of sets that shine way more there. But again, its not really balanced for it, but I prefer the flow of battles there. I hate having to ignore so many targets that are built to be tanky. I see those guys trying that on nonCP and you know you can wear down their stam before another ult is up.

Yesterday was the first time I ran a full group, but with every campaign having a que, I think we knew what we were getting into. Cyro isnt perfect, but I find myself having to ignore and walk away from so many battles on a CP campaign. I dont like that, I just cant even live like that. I like to take any battle, and on no CP even when I know our chances are virtually 0 of winning, I know we can bang in on the enemy for a good hit.

Id hope if they want to reduce calculations theyd seriously consider reducing group sizes, removing AOE caps entirely, and limiting effects of party buffs and AOE friendly skills to the group. They need to add some incentive for new players to find a group and make it clear, but itd go a long way to 'fixing' performance and behavior if that is the real end goal here than any CP changes would.

Moglijuana

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you have no sustain but simply kill every enemy instantly because you fight them 3v10 it hardly matters that you have no sustain.
Especially as your enemies can no longer kite and draw you out as it costs too much resources.

I´m having the same HP basically ~600 difference while missing effectively ~5% dmg from CP, 12% crit, 7000 magica and 23% critdmg. In what world do you (in a small grp of two or three people) kill targets faster than on CP.

I´m doing 50% of my usual dmg on targets that have about 10% less HP than usual. They do not die faster - atleast for me.

So in the end we kill targets slower and run out of resources faster. But stamsorcs are go(o)d there. So i get where you´re coming from

My Magsorc seems to kill about as fast on No-Cp as cp if built correctly. People are squishier(even in Heavy Armor) but you also deal a little less damage so its a trade. People die faster because resource sustain is an issue. I got my Sorc up to 3900 mag recovery after taking a resource under certain conditions and if im not careful i can run dry even with that. it helps a little against poisons, but isn't a silver bullet.

CP is a huge crutch in this game, and outside of PVE the game really isn't designed around it like many people say. They designed the CP system solely for PVE and just included it in PVP. There isn't a single skill in the game that was re-designed for CP. they changed the numbers and such....instead of having 3k health in 1.5 you have 29k health or whatever now.

All the CP system does for PVP is allow everyone to be their own tank, healer, and DPS. it causes massive class imbalances due to thinks like Bastion, increased Crit damage, etc....Every class actually feels balanced without CP. No one is immortal anymore...not everyone is running around as gods in Cyrodiil.


im really hoping they remove CP completely from PVP and give us back the 4k health, mag, and stam they took away from us in 1.5 and hid behind the CP system. They cna then tweak poisons a little bit, and tweak a few armor sets, and we will have a more skill based pvp.

Small scale engagements are much more rewarding with No CP. !vX should be a bit harder, but 2v2 and 3v3 is where no cp really shines.

I had an EPIC 3v3 with a few EP at Blackboot Farm last night....those guys fought really well and that fight could have went either way....but none of us were immortal....the DK couldn't just tape his right mouse button down forever, the two Sorcs(myself and the other one) just couldn't endlessly shield, and the two Templars couldn't just wave their hand once and get back to full health. Even if my 3 man lost that fight, I still would have thought it was was fun, and I would have congrats to the other 3 guys....this is how PVP felt in the 1.0-1.5 iteration of the game...its what got me hooked on PVP in the first place,.


as i said regardless, im staying in Azura...CP is terrible for PVP and thats become really apparent to me now....

And i simply not agree with you - because it´s personal preference.
I hope they keep the option to pvp with and without cp and let people choose how they want to play.

Also i have no idea how you kill as fast as on CP campaign. It´s simply not possible as you can´t make up for the dmg lost.

The reason people are able to kill faster is because people have less resources to be defensive. Yes you lose damage, but players are now susceptible to critical mistakes that allow enemy combos to actually work the first time they hit. No more holding block forever until a pot is up, no more endless shield stacking, no more excessive amount of dodge rolling etc. You mess up, you will die. CP lets you make plenty of mistakes and still stay alive.

If you make a mistake in CP you will die because i deal enough dmg to kill you.

NoCP is a lot more forgiving in that regard.

But hey maybe it´s just NA/EU difference again.

Um, no. I get hit harder, and more consistently in no CP when compared to CP. Because everyone is doing the same damage as their counterparts for the most part. It's not possible to stack 25% into a damage mitigation against certain specs anymore and resource management matters more than ever.

In CP campaigns you will literally see people on the ground out of stamina getting hit and somehow they can stay alive if all their CP points are placed to counter w.e is currently hitting them. No CP, if you're on the ground helpless, ANYTHING can kill you.

Sorry but you need to get better at math.

25% dmg specced dmg reduction vs 25% specced dmg will result in 7.5% less dmg compared to 0% dmg reduction vs 0% dmg increase.
However you don´t figure in critdmg, critpassive and statgain from CP. The counter to those require the same points as dmg reduction. As a result you can get less dmg reduction from CP than you can gain dmg increases.
Also basically nobody specs 25% into one reduction because it leaves them vulnerable towards other specs.

Lastly you can simply have a look at cp dmg to hp ratio and noncp dmg to hp ratio.
On CP i can hit for 14k fragments on targets with 22k hp.
On nonCP i hit 8k fragments on targets with 20k HP.

I kill people a lot faster on CP - unless they´re only setup to tank. In which case i comfortably ignore them.

P.S. I actually stack 25% in elemental defender, soooooo, wrong again.

Well then you either take enourmous critdmg or physical dmg builds destroy you. We have both types of dmg in our grp. One of them will have an advantage.

Your hypothetical statement is only true for tanks. But tanks are irrelevant in esos meta.

100 into ele defender, 50 into hardy, 50 into resistant in heavy impen. I do not take much damage in general. And I'm not even a tank =0.

To reiterate my point. Said CP placements above allow me to do tons of stupid things while getting frags to the face, sitting in destro ulti's etc. Move into no CP. A little level CP 100 can destro ulti into me, and If i don't react quick enough or am low on resources, I die. Resulting in a faster TTK. End of story and the entire point of me commenting.