Can't kill anybody anymore..

NightbladeMechanics

Should retitle this thread "help me build my sorc for Homestead" then actually listen to feedback.

BuggeX

Ishammael wrote: »

mSorc is basically hard counter to mDK. Your combat tools should make this an un-loseable fight.

Of course, no SINGLE thing will win the fight. However, you have an unblockable DoT, unreflectable Spam, the best defense, superior mobility, and the best ultimate.

Granted, if the mDK player is competent you won't win on the first burst, or maybe even the third. But you have a yuge sustain and defense advantage.

i would say temp is hard Counter to mdk, sorc just a good Counter

NightbladeMechanics

BuggeX wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

mSorc is basically hard counter to mDK. Your combat tools should make this an un-loseable fight.

Of course, no SINGLE thing will win the fight. However, you have an unblockable DoT, unreflectable Spam, the best defense, superior mobility, and the best ultimate.

Granted, if the mDK player is competent you won't win on the first burst, or maybe even the third. But you have a yuge sustain and defense advantage.

i would say temp is hard Counter to mdk, sorc just a good Counter

They both resist mdk damage well, except sorc actually has kill pressure on the mdk.

BuggeX

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

mSorc is basically hard counter to mDK. Your combat tools should make this an un-loseable fight.

Of course, no SINGLE thing will win the fight. However, you have an unblockable DoT, unreflectable Spam, the best defense, superior mobility, and the best ultimate.

Granted, if the mDK player is competent you won't win on the first burst, or maybe even the third. But you have a yuge sustain and defense advantage.

i would say temp is hard Counter to mdk, sorc just a good Counter

They both resist mdk damage well, except sorc actually has kill pressure on the mdk.

dont be so sure about, purify *** light, eos, a few Jabs and Radiant will end your life pretty fast

timidobserver

BuggeX wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

mSorc is basically hard counter to mDK. Your combat tools should make this an un-loseable fight.

Of course, no SINGLE thing will win the fight. However, you have an unblockable DoT, unreflectable Spam, the best defense, superior mobility, and the best ultimate.

Granted, if the mDK player is competent you won't win on the first burst, or maybe even the third. But you have a yuge sustain and defense advantage.

i would say temp is hard Counter to mdk, sorc just a good Counter

They both resist mdk damage well, except sorc actually has kill pressure on the mdk.

dont be so sure about, purify *** light, eos, a few Jabs and Radiant will end your life pretty fast

Sorc is more effective due to not needing to build up the damage of their curse and not needing to be melee. I would trade backlash for curse easy.

rivenjr

DK were strongest before update and then they made them stronger. Even Alcast and Sypher were scratching their heads on this one.

Minalan

rivenjr wrote: »

DK were strongest before update and then they made them stronger. Even Alcast and Sypher were scratching their heads on this one.

My guess? I think the devs tried to unchain mag DK's from vampire this patch. I don't think it worked.

NBrookus

Minalan wrote: »

rivenjr wrote: »

DK were strongest before update and then they made them stronger. Even Alcast and Sypher were scratching their heads on this one.

My guess? I think the devs tried to unchain mag DK's from vampire this patch. I don't think it worked.

Not really. I tried running stage 4 and no vamp skills last night. Chains help with mobility, but it require a target so it may be out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then there are just too make roots and snares to relay solely on our stam pool to get out of them; we need mistform. As a sorc I got away with it because I had strong shields and I could streak while rooted.

Biro123

Soo - spent a few hours playing tonight with spinners.. seems very promising so far. I'm not seeing the kind of hits I used to against light armoured targets - but I'm making good dents in the multitude of DK's now.

I think its partly spinners and partly more bar space from no pets.. Where I used to have to use CS as my only staff ability (to get the staff dmg bonus), I've dropped it for wrath and added in ele drain instead. So yeah, almost 20k pen when I use it. And getting the burst back from wrath as opposed to the tickle from CS is making a big difference too.
I'm running an odd setup tho.. Sharpened staff but NOT spinners.. (don't have the gold to buy one and spent over 500k AP on trying to get the spinners stuff I'm using) - and no resto staff - so no heals aside from surge and pots. Yeah, I know its a weakness.. Still have a bit of tweaking to do but its certainly looking promising.

leepalmer95

rivenjr wrote: »

DK were strongest before update and then they made them stronger. Even Alcast and Sypher were scratching their heads on this one.

Mag dk and stam dk are different things.

Mag dk wasn't strongest by far

Stam dk didn't get any buff's.

caeliusstarbreaker

Biro123 wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

It's also almost like its a class that by weapon choice, their main spammable was taken of the reflect roster and they can equip a staff that's heavy attack isn't dodgeable, all the while negating enemy crit due to their active defense, with an ultimate that gives them something to LoS in the middle of a field, with a direct melee counter skill and the best mobility in the game...

I dunno..... What to do... What to do....

ooh, I don't know where to start....

Main spammable not reflected... Reflect isn't the problem. never was with this skill. It still gets dodged/blocked and it still does poor dmg. Nobody is gonna kill a semi-competent tankiy build by spamming CS.

Lightning heavy attacks.. the ones whereby equipping instead of fire means all your single target burs effectively has a 8% dmg nerf.. Lightning heavy attacks which are weaker than resto heavy attacks,,, and you cannot weave them either. Nobody is gonna kill a semi-competent tankiy build by spamming lightning heavy attacks.

Shields - another topic - I'm not gonna go there - but defence isn't the problem here..

Mines? too easily counterd nowadays.. everyone either just walks straight over them holding block or just mist-froms over them. Hardly worth a slot now.

Mobility.. If only. Maybe once upon a time. Maybe if I drop pets I could fit boundless AND streak on my bars.. but would lose my only burst heal, and about 5k magicka.. Streak on its own?? lol - doesn't get you out of gap-close range, forces a 'pause' after streaking. Also is bugged and doesn't work half the time, leaving you CC'd - not to mention increased cost for spamming it.. Boundless on its own? 5 seconds of major expedition.. That alone doesn't exactly give you the best mobility in game.. especially when you have no stam to sprint with.. Now any stam build with a bow .. that's a million times better mobility - and doesn't even take up any skill-slots...

I dunno man... I know a bunch of sorc's that are excelling this patch using a lot of the gear I eluded to... It may just be a learn to adapt issue.

Minalan

Biro123 wrote: »

Soo - spent a few hours playing tonight with spinners.. seems very promising so far. I'm not seeing the kind of hits I used to against light armoured targets - but I'm making good dents in the multitude of DK's now.

I think its partly spinners and partly more bar space from no pets.. Where I used to have to use CS as my only staff ability (to get the staff dmg bonus), I've dropped it for wrath and added in ele drain instead. So yeah, almost 20k pen when I use it. And getting the burst back from wrath as opposed to the tickle from CS is making a big difference too.
I'm running an odd setup tho.. Sharpened staff but NOT spinners.. (don't have the gold to buy one and spent over 500k AP on trying to get the spinners stuff I'm using) - and no resto staff - so no heals aside from surge and pots. Yeah, I know its a weakness.. Still have a bit of tweaking to do but its certainly looking promising.

Next step, pick a decent mundus stone. Thief or shadow. Either goes great with light armor. You'll need that resto staff too.

Valencer

Tbh, that double shield stack youve got going most likely seems just as unbreakable to the DK youre fighting. Heavy armour and magicka sorcs are both really tough to beat

PandaIsAPotato

Ishammael wrote: »

mSorc is basically hard counter to mDK. Your combat tools should make this an un-loseable fight.

Of course, no SINGLE thing will win the fight. However, you have an unblockable DoT, unreflectable Spam, the best defense, superior mobility, and the best ultimate.

Granted, if the mDK player is competent you won't win on the first burst, or maybe even the third. But you have a yuge sustain and defense advantage.

If this was 1.6 and the mDK wasn't wearing Nirn I'd agree with you, a competent mDK and mSorc fight will go on forever now. Just keep wings up to deny him fraggle waggle, heal through everything else and walk away as you drop ultimates on him for sustain. Though, with DK having access to chains now, provided it works, fight could actually be more in favor of the DK, yank him out of mine bubble into damage.

Rickter

thankyourat wrote: »

Lol stam dk is ridiculous I hate fighting them. Honestly I don't know if anyone has found something different but stam dk doesn't seem to have any counters. Great damage, great healing, great defense. I would say just destro ulti them and try to land your frag, curse,wrath combo in the ultimate. That'll usually finish him. as someone said earlier use spinner set it's pretty much best in slot in cyrodiil right now for magicka builds. To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

I just recently switched from my long time run (3 years) as magicka DK to Stamina (yeah i know everyone said this wasnt the patch to do it but, gotta follow your heart ya me?) and your comments here are curious. . . what healing do you speak of that makes Stam DK unique? my two biggest heals are Vigor and Rally. . . literally every other class gets access to the same heals.

Magicka DK seems to be superior from a CC and Survivability stand point. Fossilize, Talons, Inhale, Burning Embers, Igneous Shields, hell even Dragon Blood - all of these are DK specific, all increase a DK's survival, and ALL dictated by the magicka resource pool.

So again, how is it that Stam DK's

thankyourat wrote: »

doesn't seem to have any counters

and

thankyourat wrote: »

Great damage, great healing, great defense

and

thankyourat wrote: »

To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

Rickter

frozywozy wrote: »

The main problem is the champion points system. Everytime the cap increase, we just make juggernauts even stronger. CPs should be all about utility, not damage, defense and sustain. Also, healing should scale off a different stat than wd/sd.

The problem with this mentality is that negating CP passive effectiveness has an inherently negative affect on PVE. I know this is hte PVP forum but as a player that enjoys both aspects of the game, I'd hate to see more "nerfs" for the sake of PVP balance when those abilities are extremely beneficial for a different aspect of the game.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on healing however. healers make great dps simply because their power scales off the same stats. sounds kinda op right? yes.

BuggeX

Rickter wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lol stam dk is ridiculous I hate fighting them. Honestly I don't know if anyone has found something different but stam dk doesn't seem to have any counters. Great damage, great healing, great defense. I would say just destro ulti them and try to land your frag, curse,wrath combo in the ultimate. That'll usually finish him. as someone said earlier use spinner set it's pretty much best in slot in cyrodiil right now for magicka builds. To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

I just recently switched from my long time run (3 years) as magicka DK to Stamina (yeah i know everyone said this wasnt the patch to do it but, gotta follow your heart ya me?) and your comments here are curious. . . what healing do you speak of that makes Stam DK unique? my two biggest heals are Vigor and Rally. . . literally every other class gets access to the same heals.

Magicka DK seems to be superior from a CC and Survivability stand point. Fossilize, Talons, Inhale, Burning Embers, Igneous Shields, hell even Dragon Blood - all of these are DK specific, all increase a DK's survival, and ALL dictated by the magicka resource pool.

So again, how is it that Stam DK's

thankyourat wrote: »

doesn't seem to have any counters

and

thankyourat wrote: »

Great damage, great healing, great defense

and

thankyourat wrote: »

To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

the Keyword is igneous shild.

Major mending, shild, stam recover, minor brutallity and recovering ulti.
that one skill is making Stamina dk what he is

not saying mdk weak, but different, and i wouldnt say supperior to stam dk

Biro123

Yay - got my first l2p whisper from a stam DK tank today after using the perfect counter - kiting him all the way around the keep.

I must be doing something right!

Takes-No-Prisoner

Minalan wrote: »

My only advice is to keep mage wrath on them ahead of your burst, so they explode before they can hit their little OP heal button.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This

I've been running burning spell weave and the burst is pretty good. Vicious death and BSW is pretty lol when my sorc drops a EoTS

Solariken

I feel you OP, PvP is rough for a solo player these days. Everybody runs a heavy armor tank loadout but has easy access to animation cancelling, good burst combos, INSANE self-healing, coordinated ultis, etc. We just have to face the music and come to the realization that with regard to ESO game design, there is no game design.

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

I feel you OP, PvP is rough for a solo player these days. Everybody runs a heavy armor tank loadout but has easy access to animation cancelling, good burst combos, INSANE self-healing, coordinated ultis, etc. We just have to face the music and come to the realization that with regard to ESO game design, there is no game design.

t3hdubzy

Biro123 wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

It's also almost like its a class that by weapon choice, their main spammable was taken of the reflect roster and they can equip a staff that's heavy attack isn't dodgeable, all the while negating enemy crit due to their active defense, with an ultimate that gives them something to LoS in the middle of a field, with a direct melee counter skill and the best mobility in the game...

I dunno..... What to do... What to do....

ooh, I don't know where to start....

Main spammable not reflected... Reflect isn't the problem. never was with this skill. It still gets dodged/blocked and it still does poor dmg. Nobody is gonna kill a semi-competent tankiy build by spamming CS.

Lightning heavy attacks.. the ones whereby equipping instead of fire means all your single target burs effectively has a 8% dmg nerf.. Lightning heavy attacks which are weaker than resto heavy attacks,,, and you cannot weave them either. Nobody is gonna kill a semi-competent tankiy build by spamming lightning heavy attacks.

Shields - another topic - I'm not gonna go there - but defence isn't the problem here..

Mines? too easily counterd nowadays.. everyone either just walks straight over them holding block or just mist-froms over them. Hardly worth a slot now.

Mobility.. If only. Maybe once upon a time. Maybe if I drop pets I could fit boundless AND streak on my bars.. but would lose my only burst heal, and about 5k magicka.. Streak on its own?? lol - doesn't get you out of gap-close range, forces a 'pause' after streaking. Also is bugged and doesn't work half the time, leaving you CC'd - not to mention increased cost for spamming it.. Boundless on its own? 5 seconds of major expedition.. That alone doesn't exactly give you the best mobility in game.. especially when you have no stam to sprint with.. Now any stam build with a bow .. that's a million times better mobility - and doesn't even take up any skill-slots...

Is this a troll post? Its setup really well i cant tell

thankyourat

Rickter wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lol stam dk is ridiculous I hate fighting them. Honestly I don't know if anyone has found something different but stam dk doesn't seem to have any counters. Great damage, great healing, great defense. I would say just destro ulti them and try to land your frag, curse,wrath combo in the ultimate. That'll usually finish him. as someone said earlier use spinner set it's pretty much best in slot in cyrodiil right now for magicka builds. To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

I just recently switched from my long time run (3 years) as magicka DK to Stamina (yeah i know everyone said this wasnt the patch to do it but, gotta follow your heart ya me?) and your comments here are curious. . . what healing do you speak of that makes Stam DK unique? my two biggest heals are Vigor and Rally. . . literally every other class gets access to the same heals.

Magicka DK seems to be superior from a CC and Survivability stand point. Fossilize, Talons, Inhale, Burning Embers, Igneous Shields, hell even Dragon Blood - all of these are DK specific, all increase a DK's survival, and ALL dictated by the magicka resource pool.

So again, how is it that Stam DK's

thankyourat wrote: »

doesn't seem to have any counters

and

thankyourat wrote: »

Great damage, great healing, great defense

and

thankyourat wrote: »

To kill a good stam dk you are going to have to have a lot of burst damage and make sure you are setting up your combos.

I can get my vigors to tic for 6k crits on my stam dk. And I've had over 15k rally heals. Combine that with great resource management. I feel like I can't die while playing stam dk. I've never played mag dk maybe it has better survivability idk but I do know stam dk is ridiculous from playing one and fighting them. I just run a very basic set up 5 fury, 5 viper, 2 bloodspawn, sword and board. I create and play classes I struggle to beat on my main so I can learn how to fight them better, and I have never played anything that feels as survivable as a stam dk. Every 1v1 is a stam dks fight to lose. Every class has acsess to vigor but stam dk has major mending to pump it up

NBrookus

Mag DK doesn't have better survivability. We have -- finally! -- a solid heal plus some situational heals, but every tough, hard to kill mDK you see built for that. My stam DK has the survivability PLUS the ability to do lots of damage in the first build I tried.

Stam can't spam talons or fossilize... but magicka doesn't have poison injection, crit rush, executioner or dizzying swing.

mtwiggz

Issue here is that "tanks" since One Tamriel can deal ridiculous damage as well as have ridiculous survivability.

The reason it's coming into the light more now than then is that players are finally catching on or being able to afford what they wanted to run. Usually takes a good few months before the mass of the playerbase picks up on some very "slap you in the face" builds or they wait for prices of items to drop.

MagSorc is in a pretty good place now. Seems like you're just running a very terrible build.

Biro123

mtwiggz wrote: »

Issue here is that "tanks" since One Tamriel can deal ridiculous damage as well as have ridiculous survivability.

The reason it's coming into the light more now than then is that players are finally catching on or being able to afford what they wanted to run. Usually takes a good few months before the mass of the playerbase picks up on some very "slap you in the face" builds or they wait for prices of items to drop.

MagSorc is in a pretty good place now. Seems like you're just running a very terrible build.

Yes, and no.. I've been experimenting with a LOT of different builds for this. The problem is 2-fold imho - first the sheer number of tanks in cyro at the minute - especially off-peak time. Its seriously hard to find anyone who isn't a tank - or isn't hiding behind one. I suspect its more of an issue common now because I'm seeing much, much less NB's around. I guess with the proc-set nerf, a number of them have decided to switch from straight out DD setups to their tank toons instead. I mean, I never had much of a problem with the gankers.. yeah, they can kill me quick with a well-executed gank - but I can kill them quick when caught in the open - that feels like balance to me.

Second is that these tanks seem able to do an inordinate amount of damage too for the amount of tankiness they have when they stop turtling and decide to hit back.
I've been running a new setup with 20k penetration and stam-cost poisons lately - and yesterday it was taking over 5 minutes for 4 of us to defeat a single DK. Every single attack was blocked.. often with the sword/shield ulti - and what damage got through was simply healed through by him. My hardest hitting ability was the obviously unblockable curse which was hitting for around 3.5k every 3.5 seconds - which he was easily healing through. Then when he decides to hit back - I'm seeing burst of 10k from him.
I mean, I'm not expecting to take down a tank 1 on 1. I'm only expecting to be able to have more of an impact when 3 or 4 of us a re focussing on him. But surely if someone can build to be so tanky to take a concentrated beating from 4 people for a long period of time (when one of them has built especially for high-penetration damage-dealing) - surely he should only be able to hit back as hard as he is getting hit?
I mean yeah, 1v1 he couldn't kill me (unless I made a mistake) - but I have no chance of killing him.. 1v4, I drop like a fly - yet he brushes off everything and still has a chance of winning when the attackers make mistakes. So you get engaged in any of these fights in open-world, the advantage is with the tank.. if any friendlies come along, he can still fight em off. If any enemies come along, I'm dead.

There's simply too much in one package... massive tankiness, great self-heals, great ulti-regen, good damage dealing - and now it feels like everybody is doing it.

Subversus

Dude above me must be overexagerrating, I can't fathom how 3 competent players can't kill a single player.

Iyas

Clearly a l2p issue

Biro123

I shall go away and learn to play then. Thanks for the advice..

Iyas

Biro123 wrote: »

I shall go away and learn to play then. Thanks for the advice..

Youre welcome