Can We All Agree "Bow Builds" Aren't Viable?

SodanTok

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

Drop fang for TBS (or NMG), Ophidian for Agi, master bow for any bow with damage ench and its still probably 30k self buffed, perfectly viable for any content where you can get rest of the gear.

UrQuan

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

ITT: in order for a weapon to be viable it must do the best possible DPS and it must do that with all possible builds...

Also ITT: people who have no idea what the word "viable" means.

AverageJo3Gam3r

@masterbroodub17_ESO can't you say that about any build? Stam melee dps isn't "viable" without vMA weapons. Magicka dps isn't "viable" without BSW/IA/vMA weapons. How is saying bow isn't "viable" without vMA/vdsa weapons any different?

hedna123b14_ESO

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

I dont think you know what youre talking about. Melee stam dps only parse really high because of vMA weapons, so the high parses you keep bringing up involve the same BiS gear that you have an issue with. Have you looked at stam dps without vMA weapons? Its not impressive...

Tommy_The_Gun

"Can We All Agree "Bow Builds" Aren't Viable?"

Well... the are not the best in terms of DPS. But still - with a correct race & class combo + weapon & armour sets they can be really good.

The bows really shine in PvP. Unlike the destruction staff (which is supposed to be ranged AoE DPS), bows are ranged "single target" DPS.

btw. I find bow builds to be the most "fun to play". I re-rolled my argonian NB to stamina only to try out this playstyle. Then after some time I re-rolled to magicka with destro & staff. And although I was able to nuke every enemy (much greater DPS compared to bows) somehow it was not so enjoyable as using bow. So I re-rolled back to stamina and I am using a bow...
xD

UrQuan

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

I dont think Everyone can see you don't know what youre talking about. Melee stam dps only parse really high because of vMA weapons, so the high parses you keep bringing up involve the same BiS gear that you have an issue with. Have you looked at stam dps without vMA weapons? Its not impressive...

Fixed that for you

Edited because I screwed up my fixing of the quote and accidentally made it say the opposite of what I meant for it to say...

Artis

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

Yes, because someone found a way to make it viable it does mean that it's viable.

In non BiS gear it will work a little worse. Just like ANY BUILD will work worse with BiS setup of gear+ rotation.
It's not like any magicka DK, for example, works. You can run bis setup and hit high numbers, or you can run something like seducer or whatever and have numbers that are way lower. Any build will work better with vMA weapons than without. Does it make them nonviable?

Don't understand your definition. If Bows aren't viable, then what it viable?

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

@masterbroodub17_ESO You sir win the Internet for the day. You hit the nail perfectly on the head.

@Ch4mpTW you stop ignoring the fact that people with bow builds get higher DPS than most players in "viable " builds. That's the 3rd time I point that out, you still didn't comment on the links that were provided on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread.

UrQuan wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

I dont think Everyone can see you don't know what youre talking about. Melee stam dps only parse really high because of vMA weapons, so the high parses you keep bringing up involve the same BiS gear that you have an issue with. Have you looked at stam dps without vMA weapons? Its not impressive...

Fixed that for you

Fixed that for you.

cbaudersub17_ESO

The meaning of the word 'viable' is divorced from metric outcome...

unless Webster's is a total sack of crap.

AcadianPaladin

I think some of the disagreement may be the term 'viable'. I take viable to mean workable, practical, usable. Having played a bow/bow stamsorc I consider bow/bow viable.

If we mean that a bow/bow build is not 'optimal' (or even close to optimal) for a group dps player I could certainly agree. I should think the variety of attitudes, opinions, objectives and approaches seen in ESO demonstrates that not everyone plays the game to group with others. Nor do we all measure success by dps numbers.

UrQuan

Artis wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

Yes, because someone found a way to make it viable it does mean that it's viable.

In non BiS gear it will work a little worse. Just like ANY BUILD will work worse with BiS setup of gear+ rotation.
It's not like any magicka DK, for example, works. You can run bis setup and hit high numbers, or you can run something like seducer or whatever and have numbers that are way lower. Any build will work better with vMA weapons than without. Does it make them nonviable?

Don't understand your definition. If Bows aren't viable, then what it viable?

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

@masterbroodub17_ESO You sir win the Internet for the day. You hit the nail perfectly on the head.

@Ch4mpTW you stop ignoring the fact that people with bow builds get higher DPS than most players in "viable " builds. That's the 3rd time I point that out, you still didn't comment on the links that were provided on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread.

UrQuan wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

I dont think Everyone can see you don't know what youre talking about. Melee stam dps only parse really high because of vMA weapons, so the high parses you keep bringing up involve the same BiS gear that you have an issue with. Have you looked at stam dps without vMA weapons? Its not impressive...

Fixed that for you

Fixed that for you.

Oops, thanks, that's actually exactly what I meant to fix it to. Total fail on my part there...

Bobby_V_Rockit

Indeed

UrQuan

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I think some of the disagreement may be the term 'viable'. I take viable to mean workable, practical, usable. Having played a bow/bow stamsorc I consider bow/bow viable.

You "take viable to mean" that because that's literally exactly what it means... Anyone who's interpreting the word differently from you is simply wrong.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

If we mean that a bow/bow build is not 'optimal' (or even close to optimal) for a group dps player I could certainly agree. I should think the variety of attitudes, opinions, objectives and approaches seen in ESO demonstrates that not everyone plays the game to group with others. Nor do we all measure success by dps numbers.

Exactly - optimal is a totally different discussion from viable. I would even argue that it's more difficult to make a viable bow/bow build than it is to make a viable dual wield/dual wield build, but again that's a different discussion from "are bow builds viable".

I consider bow/bow to be viable as long as you've put sufficient thought into your build, you have gear that works for that build, and you understand how to play that build. I don't consider it viable in my hands because I haven't done the work required to do a build like that, so I only use bow as part of a build with another weapon (typically dual wield). But I know it's viable in the right hands.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I refer you to the impact of the English Longbow at the Battle Of Agincourt.

That Bow isn't viable as a main weapon just means the Bow Skill Lines are WRONG.


All The Best

idk

Theorycrafters and others search for builds that perform well to inspire is with what is possible.

One can look at these builds for days on end and will continue to see the same false premise this thread was created on if they gaze through a narrow mind.

Myyth

I will accept that bow builds arnt viable when I see some hard numbers.

Has anyone used a test dummy to compare bow dps with other weapons yet?
If not, could someone do that?

I am curious to see if bow really does less damage and by how much.

Izaki

The amount of noobness in this thread from all the people agreeing with OP is reaching critical levels. Evacuate plz. Bow builds are very much viable. Not optimal sure, but viable.

idk

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Im just going to leave this here;)
http://imgur.com/a/a3Neh#SB4A9gZ

Myyth wrote: »

I will accept that bow builds arnt viable when I see some hard numbers.

Has anyone used a test dummy to compare bow dps with other weapons yet?
If not, could someone do that?

I am curious to see if bow really does less damage and by how much.

@Myyth

What I quoted at the top of this post is hard proof that bow can dish the damage and breaks the entire premise this thread was based on.

STEVIL

UrQuan wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

ITT: in order for a weapon to be viable it must do the best possible DPS and it must do that with all possible builds...

Also ITT: people who have no idea what the word "viable" means.

True but the "second best is last/useless" mindset is rife thru mmo minmaxing.

A big part of it is fostered by the designers.

Right now most of the design centers around "you" - your traits, your stats etc and very little variance by "them" the target and the circumstance. most of the time your "best dps evah" will be the "best dps evah" in case after case after case. the main three weapon traits - precise -sharpened and nirn - all just try to up DPS by altering the variables - each a different variable but there is so little difference in the targets in PVE that the net result is mostly - one math wins out.

A way to break this mold to some extent would be a massive trait overhaul.

Weapons traits would mostly do "more damage" but against specific targets:
nirnhoned vs ??? maybe everything but at maybe 75% of the others
sharpened vs light armor and animals/beasts
precise vs medium armor and ogres/giants
crushing vs heavy armor and constructs/gargoyles
infused vs undead/daedra
smashing vs bugs/spiders/dretches
etc etc etc

Armor traits that do better vs types of damage:
nirn vs everything but at like 75%
infused vs elemental/nagic
reinforced vs direct single target
sturdy vs phsyical/poison/disease
well-fitted vs AOE
etc etc etc

this gets away from "best everywhere' builds and moves towards "everything is best somewhere and nothing is best everywhere" kind of different builds for different enemies and different objectives even if the role is the same.

GrigorijMalahevich

Why don't you calm down and let people play as they want? Furthermore there are various double bow builds that can do sustained >30k DPS single target.

Why should people even listen to you? Don't tell people what to do and they will not tell you where to go.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

STEVIL wrote: »

A way to break this mold to some extent would be a massive trait overhaul.

Weapons traits would mostly do "more damage" but against specific targets:
nirnhoned vs ??? maybe everything but at maybe 75% of the others
sharpened vs light armor and animals/beasts
precise vs medium armor and ogres/giants
crushing vs heavy armor and constructs/gargoyles
infused vs undead/daedra
smashing vs bugs/spiders/dretches
etc etc etc

Armor traits that do better vs types of damage:
nirn vs everything but at like 75%
infused vs elemental/nagic
reinforced vs direct single target
sturdy vs phsyical/poison/disease
well-fitted vs AOE
etc etc etc

this gets away from "best everywhere' builds and moves towards "everything is best somewhere and nothing is best everywhere" kind of different builds for different enemies and different objectives even if the role is the same.

LOTRO does this with Weapon Damage Type variables, some adversaries are more susceptible to Beleriand Damage, some more to Ancient-Dwarf for example. It worked fine during leveling where you may enter a zone with very different types of adversaries - Angmar and Moria for example - to most other zones; but by end-game 95% of players are running with Beleriand, just because of the type of adversaries you will face.

But in principle I like your general ideas.

All The Best

ForsakenSin

@Cherryblossom
"You overestimate the performance of Arrow's on Mail, having seen the results of a bodkin arrow on a mail wrapped dummy at 40 meters I can assure a 70lb bow will leave you with a bruise and not much else!"


I'm sorry buddy having knowledge regarding this type of things i have to say you are wrong if you are referring to arrow vs chain mail

just one of the examples and many many MAny more if you care to look OR experiment for your self as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gPgHyaG1Q

So lets dive into this shall we?

Chain mail splits open when the arrow hits this is due to the designed of the chain mail the chain mail was designed to protect from glancing blows or lessen blows that could have been fatal ( the effectiveness of individual chain mail would be
affected not just by the metal itself but also the layering and size of the circles)

Now in chain mail from the top to your knees is about 16 Kg now lets take a scutum shield for example as you want as much as protection as possible lets says its about 4.5kg lets take a helmet which is around 2kg you mentioned axe which is about 1-2 kg depending on the size and lets say 0.5kg for cloths of the under armor weight to protect you from the chafing of the chain mail.

So that is about 25 kg which is not much as in army you are required to wear more when running however there is one big difference that decides if the war is won or lost and that is the terrain.

If the archers are placed on the hill which they usually would be, you would need to run up the hills... now here is the problem have you ever had sandals or flats that had no grip in them? and tried to run on a morning grass and stop ? what happens? you slide ( yes heaps of fun as a kid) even with today's shoes its known to happen for you to slide ..and to fall lol

Now in those days the shoes they were wearing were flats so to speak not much support running over rocks, mud, and other obstacles and slippery when wet ( shush) and any one of those things will slow you down dramatically. And there is always mud and slippery terrain not just due to the rain ect but blood for example fit male 89kg has around 5.5l of blood not mentioned horses blood ect and due to this it will slow you down.

Now blood mud wet ect that is one thing but what about heat ? i presume you had chain mail on so you know in a hot weather those things get hot on you in which terms the heat is transferd to your body .. not hot ? what about cold then? snowing? ect , what about fatigue?? , OR the time wasted stepping over fallen comrades while running towards the archers ?

So imagine if you will.. running up the hill with chain mail while wearing 25kg of weight chain mail hitting your legs , having shield and axe in two hands your feet are getting stuck in mud your using the bottom side of you shield to balance while arrows are raining down.

PS they did have flaming arrows as well and it only takes one arrow to pierce you to slow you down , also your face was unprotected as well.

Now if your saying in perfect world one on one at the flat terrain within 100m yes you probably would have a chance but this is not a perfect world.

I agree with you on one part that is possible to run probably 1km in a flat ground in half a chain mail.

So i do apologize but i can't agree with you .. you are also forgetting that in those days the chain mail was made out of impurity metal unlike now days it was much more heavier and not as strong and as light as we have today with today's technology.

As for the other item you mentioned

"The fact still remains, bows are not a primary weapon, you have already mentioned they have daggers, not Bow and erm Bow."

Umm no i clearly mentioned as a archer well your primary weapon was a bow however they did have daggers or swords in close combat as a secondary or would pick up what ever available weapon was closest to them .. i mean even today's in military you have a for example, a M16 with a handgun or another secondary weapon and as you are aware its not just if your m16 runs out of bullets you change weapons ect you change weapons as situations demands for it its easier in very close quarters to use a hand gun then the long m16 ect.

Now if you mean PLATE armor well that is a different thing and another discussion.

Fun legend

"A commonly repeated legend claims that the two-fingered salute or V sign derives from a gesture made by longbowmen fighting in the English and Welsh[26] archers at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War, but no historical primary sources support this contention.[27] This origin legend dictates that the English and Welsh archers who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V Sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the enemy."



So in the end of the day i would rather be at the shooting end of the bow then receiving one .

The more you know

Anti_Virus

ForsakenSin wrote: »

@Cherryblossom
"You overestimate the performance of Arrow's on Mail, having seen the results of a bodkin arrow on a mail wrapped dummy at 40 meters I can assure a 70lb bow will leave you with a bruise and not much else!"


I'm sorry buddy having knowledge regarding this type of things i have to say you are wrong if you are referring to arrow vs chain mail

just one of the examples and many many MAny more if you care to look OR experiment for your self as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gPgHyaG1Q

So lets dive into this shall we?

Chain mail splits open when the arrow hits this is due to the designed of the chain mail the chain mail was designed to protect from glancing blows or lessen blows that could have been fatal ( the effectiveness of individual chain mail would be
affected not just by the metal itself but also the layering and size of the circles)

Now in chain mail from the top to your knees is about 16 Kg now lets take a scutum shield for example as you want as much as protection as possible lets says its about 4.5kg lets take a helmet which is around 2kg you mentioned axe which is about 1-2 kg depending on the size and lets say 0.5kg for cloths of the under armor weight to protect you from the chafing of the chain mail.

So that is about 25 kg which is not much as in army you are required to wear more when running however there is one big difference that decides if the war is won or lost and that is the terrain.

If the archers are placed on the hill which they usually would be, you would need to run up the hills... now here is the problem have you ever had sandals or flats that had no grip in them? and tried to run on a morning grass and stop ? what happens? you slide ( yes heaps of fun as a kid) even with today's shoes its known to happen for you to slide ..and to fall lol

Now in those days the shoes they were wearing were flats so to speak not much support running over rocks, mud, and other obstacles and slippery when wet ( shush) and any one of those things will slow you down dramatically. And there is always mud and slippery terrain not just due to the rain ect but blood for example fit male 89kg has around 5.5l of blood not mentioned horses blood ect and due to this it will slow you down.

Now blood mud wet ect that is one thing but what about heat ? i presume you had chain mail on so you know in a hot weather those things get hot on you in which terms the heat is transferd to your body .. not hot ? what about cold then? snowing? ect , what about fatigue?? , OR the time wasted stepping over fallen comrades while running towards the archers ?

So imagine if you will.. running up the hill with chain mail while wearing 25kg of weight chain mail hitting your legs , having shield and axe in two hands your feet are getting stuck in mud your using the bottom side of you shield to balance while arrows are raining down.

PS they did have flaming arrows as well and it only takes one arrow to pierce you to slow you down , also your face was unprotected as well.

Now if your saying in perfect world one on one at the flat terrain within 100m yes you probably would have a chance but this is not a perfect world.

I agree with you on one part that is possible to run probably 1km in a flat ground in half a chain mail.

So i do apologize but i can't agree with you .. you are also forgetting that in those days the chain mail was made out of impurity metal unlike now days it was much more heavier and not as strong and as light as we have today with today's technology.

As for the other item you mentioned

"The fact still remains, bows are not a primary weapon, you have already mentioned they have daggers, not Bow and erm Bow."

Umm no i clearly mentioned as a archer well your primary weapon was a bow however they did have daggers or swords in close combat as a secondary or would pick up what ever available weapon was closest to them .. i mean even today's in military you have a for example, a M16 with a handgun or another secondary weapon and as you are aware its not just if your m16 runs out of bullets you change weapons ect you change weapons as situations demands for it its easier in very close quarters to use a hand gun the the long m16 ect.

Now if you mean PLATE armor well that is a different thing and another discussion.

Fun legend

"A commonly repeated legend claims that the two-fingered salute or V sign derives from a gesture made by longbowmen fighting in the English and Welsh[26] archers at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War, but no historical primary sources support this contention.[27] This origin legend dictates that the English and Welsh archers who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V Sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the enemy."



So in the end of the day i would rather at the shooting end of the bow then receiving one .

The more you know

Got him. Nice post.

MLGProPlayer

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Shyfty wrote: »

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 22-25k single target DPS in PVE with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE? With trials being the only exception? Lol. Okay. Go do VICP, VCoS, or VRoM with the 2 Damage Dealers of the group as bowmen. Report to me with the results you find, compared to 2 Damage Dealers as staff users or DW users. Hell maybe even 2H users (if they're not the Uppercut spamming type). Matter of a fact. Not even those dungeons. Go hit up VCoA2 or VCoH2 with 2 archers, and return with your findings. As I'm interested to see how it'll turn out, although I already have an idea of how it will turn out.

What you guys are misunderstanding is that I mean not saying using a bow is 100% useless and garbage. No. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, it's not viable as the center of your strategy. It's not viable to go about making it your main source of damage.

I think the one misunderstanding is you.

Just because a build isn't at the top of the DPS ladder doesn't mean it's not viable as the "center of your strategy" and "main source of damage."

Viable (adjective): capable of working successfully; feasible.

Using a bow-exclusive build is very much feasible, depending on what you want to do with it. I wouldn't take my archer into the vet dungeons you listed, because I don't really like doing vet dungeons in the first place. They're just not my thing. But for normal dungeons, she does just fine. For solo PvE, she does just fine. For everything I want to do in the game, she does just fine.

What you consider "viable" is not what other people consider "viable." For me, it's "Can I solo PvE quest and have fun while not being completely steamrolled?" If the answer is "yes," I consider it viable.

If you are personally inconvenienced by a bow user, feel free to take it up with that individual player. In the meantime, stop judging other people's builds by your own standards of success.

Games are balanced around endgame content. Bows are not viable at that level.

Complaining about bows will hopefully get ZOS to buff/change them.

ForsakenSin

@Anti_Virus

Thank you

Well there is a difference between LARP and historical facts also i forgot to mentioned at some battles there was so much blood horses were getting stuck in the mud as well and could not go on.. just that can give you some idea how horrible things were.

Im glad you liked it.

Baconlad

Its already been proven that they are in fact viable built right for ENDGAME. As in trials. Problem here is that they are not optimal enough for the elitist pricks in this game. You show me an under geared DW/ bow nb whos never done a trial before do more damage than a properly geared bow/bow nb experienced trials runner. It wont happen. But unfortunatly many of you seem to rather take the dw new player over the bow veteran player...i mean...how dense can you get. Now if you tell me that you would require DPS parses from both players and choose the bow build to run with since he does better damage, than thats it, its the end of the argument. BOW IS VIABLE. not optimal...VIABLE. the ONLY TIME where his damage will matter is MAYBE speed runs...and and unless ur going for the achievement or grinding a helm from the instance, theres no reason to do a speed run. Just running pledfes does not require best uber damage possible. Does the bow need to buffed yes, but stop shitting all over it as if its only doing 1/5 the damage when its doing 9/10 the damage of a dw meta ***.

AcadianPaladin

STEVIL wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

So because someone found ONE way to make it viable that means it's viable?

Cool, let's start encouraging people to play this way all the way until they get the perfect gear setup.

Oh, you mean it ONLY works with BiS gear and a very specific build, and doing it before then is ***? So then it's not REALLY viable then is it?

Showing that something is within the realm of possibility does not mean it's viable. If it was truly viable you wouldn't need to play as a melee until you get the right gear and then reset skill points. That is not viability, that is a workaround. If you cannot go from a to z without being gimp it is not viable, period.

ITT: in order for a weapon to be viable it must do the best possible DPS and it must do that with all possible builds...

Also ITT: people who have no idea what the word "viable" means.

True but the "second best is last/useless" mindset is rife thru mmo minmaxing.

A big part of it is fostered by the designers.

Right now most of the design centers around "you" - your traits, your stats etc and very little variance by "them" the target and the circumstance. most of the time your "best dps evah" will be the "best dps evah" in case after case after case. the main three weapon traits - precise -sharpened and nirn - all just try to up DPS by altering the variables - each a different variable but there is so little difference in the targets in PVE that the net result is mostly - one math wins out.

A way to break this mold to some extent would be a massive trait overhaul.

Weapons traits would mostly do "more damage" but against specific targets:
nirnhoned vs ??? maybe everything but at maybe 75% of the others
sharpened vs light armor and animals/beasts
precise vs medium armor and ogres/giants
crushing vs heavy armor and constructs/gargoyles
infused vs undead/daedra
smashing vs bugs/spiders/dretches
etc etc etc

Armor traits that do better vs types of damage:
nirn vs everything but at like 75%
infused vs elemental/nagic
reinforced vs direct single target
sturdy vs phsyical/poison/disease
well-fitted vs AOE
etc etc etc

this gets away from "best everywhere' builds and moves towards "everything is best somewhere and nothing is best everywhere" kind of different builds for different enemies and different objectives even if the role is the same.

Oh my. I fear this would simply cause the meta players to fill their inventories with 7 sets of gear to change out instead of just 2 or three.

Cadbury

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Shyfty wrote: »

No bows are not bad for dolmens, world bosses, normal and vet dungeons, etc. I'll argue for the viability of the bow for pretty much anything but vet Trials because I haven't done them.I have used a bow as my main weapon since beta and it is not the absolute strongest but it is certainly viable and fun. I can pull 22-25k single target DPS in PVE with my bow build which is plenty for any of the content I have done. I can stand toe to toe with many people in PvP without having to gank them.

Just because many people haven't figured out how to maximize the combat system in the game and are familiar with the old Skyrim bow style doesn't mean the bow itself doesn't have potential. I am so tired of the misconception that the bow is useless as a main weapon...

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE. They're just not up to snuff for things where DPS matters, like Trials. If you don't care about being the very best, like no one ever was? A bow-exclusive build works fine.

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

Bow builds are absolutely viable for PvE? With trials being the only exception? Lol. Okay. Go do VICP, VCoS, or VRoM with the 2 Damage Dealers of the group as bowmen. Report to me with the results you find, compared to 2 Damage Dealers as staff users or DW users. Hell maybe even 2H users (if they're not the Uppercut spamming type). Matter of a fact. Not even those dungeons. Go hit up VCoA2 or VCoH2 with 2 archers, and return with your findings. As I'm interested to see how it'll turn out, although I already have an idea of how it will turn out.

What you guys are misunderstanding is that I mean not saying using a bow is 100% useless and garbage. No. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, it's not viable as the center of your strategy. It's not viable to go about making it your main source of damage.

I think the one misunderstanding is you.

Just because a build isn't at the top of the DPS ladder doesn't mean it's not viable as the "center of your strategy" and "main source of damage."

Viable (adjective): capable of working successfully; feasible.

Using a bow-exclusive build is very much feasible, depending on what you want to do with it. I wouldn't take my archer into the vet dungeons you listed, because I don't really like doing vet dungeons in the first place. They're just not my thing. But for normal dungeons, she does just fine. For solo PvE, she does just fine. For everything I want to do in the game, she does just fine.

What you consider "viable" is not what other people consider "viable." For me, it's "Can I solo PvE quest and have fun while not being completely steamrolled?" If the answer is "yes," I consider it viable.

If you are personally inconvenienced by a bow user, feel free to take it up with that individual player. In the meantime, stop judging other people's builds by your own standards of success.

Games are balanced around endgame content. Bows are not viable at that level.

Complaining about bows will hopefully get ZOS to buff/change them.

Buff bows, 2hnd, and Templars

STEVIL

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

A way to break this mold to some extent would be a massive trait overhaul.

Weapons traits would mostly do "more damage" but against specific targets:
nirnhoned vs ??? maybe everything but at maybe 75% of the others
sharpened vs light armor and animals/beasts
precise vs medium armor and ogres/giants
crushing vs heavy armor and constructs/gargoyles
infused vs undead/daedra
smashing vs bugs/spiders/dretches
etc etc etc

Armor traits that do better vs types of damage:
nirn vs everything but at like 75%
infused vs elemental/nagic
reinforced vs direct single target
sturdy vs phsyical/poison/disease
well-fitted vs AOE
etc etc etc

this gets away from "best everywhere' builds and moves towards "everything is best somewhere and nothing is best everywhere" kind of different builds for different enemies and different objectives even if the role is the same.

LOTRO does this with Weapon Damage Type variables, some adversaries are more susceptible to Beleriand Damage, some more to Ancient-Dwarf for example. It worked fine during leveling where you may enter a zone with very different types of adversaries - Angmar and Moria for example - to most other zones; but by end-game 95% of players are running with Beleriand, just because of the type of adversaries you will face.

But in principle I like your general ideas.

All The Best

Tahnks

one of the reasons i think it would serve well in ESO now is scaling. there isn't a "top folks stay in wrothgar" kind of limited area anymore. You might be running spindleclutch or might be running helRa or might be running ash ormaelstrom level by level varies etc. For PVP of course, it gets definitely quite diverse in terms of armor weight, undead, wolf, aoe vs direct etc. There is enough variety in content to sustain it, just right now that variety has little to no significant difference on your build.

DragonBound

One thing I learned about forums is to never start with can we all agree, it triggers certain people.

KimberlyannKitsuragi

I use a bow and DW