Streamers who went to zenimax

notimetocare

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I think ZOS needs to answer a few questions here as the streamers are bound and gagged under the NDA.

Questions for @ZOS_GinaBruno

• How many people were asked to come to ZOS and by what criteria were they chosen?
• How long till they NDA will be COMPLETELY lifted so they can talk about their experiences?
• It parts or all of it will NEVER be lifted please state so.
• Is there anything they can talk about before the NDA is lifted? See @usmcjdking questions above, if so please specify.

I feel the ESO community should be given a date on which the NDA can be lifted so we can discuss the protocol of this meeting and how much actual influence this group had on gameplay and design.

1. People with skill, knowledge, and, likely most important, a following.
2. When all content is announced tends to be the norm for NDAs
3. Refer to 2
4. Anything other than what they saw or played? Mostly they could jusy say 'i liked what i did/saw'
5. It is stupid to ask the forum mods because they have nothing to do with the NDA and most likely know nothing about the terms
6. Your feelings mean nothing. On top of that, that information would tell you nothing of what you want to speculate.

Wreuntzylla

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

makeumrage wrote: »

NDA's carry some hefy consequences. I wouldnt even tell my friends or family. You saw how good them Zenimax lawyers are... just took down facebook for 500mill. Lol poor streamers wouldnt stand a chance!

They also wanted 4billion though in total, got 1/8th of what they wanted still pretty good though

They sued for $2B. Zenimax was awarded $300M from Facebook. The remaining balance is owed by individual execs of Occullus, although Facebook will almost certainly pay for their loss, and the tax gross up for doing so. If they actually end up paying anything. It's primarily a case over trade secret theft involving high level execs that came over to Facebook in the Occulus purchase, and the verdict on theft was it didn't happen. I highly doubt an appeals court won't either overturn the decision or greatly reduce the award, as its difficult to see how Zenimax sustained such high damages on the remaining counts.

In any case, it's a far different case from Zenimax having customers come in and give them advice. I'm wondering what consideration existed on Zenimax's part of the agreement to make it worth anything more than toilet paper. Zenimax had to give the streamers something for what they were asking for from the streamers. I am curious if they paid them and if some of the streamers are suddenly much less critical...

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

runagate

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As one of the people that went to Zenimax I just want to remind you and others that we that went are under a strict NDA (a non-disclosure agreement), we can't say anything. So any new info about the game that might have come out of this will be from the devs here on the forums, the main website or on ESO Live.

About everything discussed or about Morrowind?

I'm actually much more interested in your feedback and their responses than anything about Morrowind.

Everything we spoke about is under NDA.

Did Fengrush and Sypher wrestle at ZOS HQ? I bet that cannot be under NDA :^)

Thanks to @LadyLavina we can show you Fengrush wrestling Gina:

https://youtu.be/cZK5ewkRBdM

LadyLavina

runagate wrote: »

Thanks to @LadyLavina we can show you Fengrush wrestling Gina:
-snip-

My first idea was to match the woofs to the tone and beat of this song but sadly I don't have the technical know how

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CS93CdMv_E

JinMori

runagate wrote: »

I'm not interested in the Morrowind information. Just the interactions and impressions of the place. For those who know where to look there's plenty of information about Morrowind already out there. Many do not enjoy spoilers though.

What is this ability? never saw it
Warden screenshot leaked?
Anyway it looks very good.

Mr_Nobody

Someone who actually has ever played a solo magicka templar probably was not invited. Total majority of the streamers, including the popular ones - only play HA meta builds or Stamina. So expect some blocking nerfs, shield buffs and such.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi guys,

First, just to clarify, the event last week wasn't exclusively for streamers. Yes, there were some streamers present, but there were also other content creators, and some that only post on the forums and never show their face. In general, we were looking for theorycrafters, players who know the game inside and out, and those who really get into the math and numbers. We also wanted a good mix of PvP and PvE players, and make sure all platforms were accounted for. All in all, we felt we met these goals.

We invited these players to give us some early feedback specifically on the Warden and battlegrounds. We also had a larger open Q&A about the game in general for a couple hours on their last day. While it's true they are currently under an NDA, they will be able to talk more about their experiences at the studio in just a couple weeks.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Surprised they invited Fengrush. Surprised he even went. Last vids I watched of him he was giving them harsh, constructive criticism. Maybe it's a love hate relationship...

Not everyone who was invited give us nothing but glowing reviews. But, like you said, Fengrush does give us constructive criticism, and that's ok. He is extremely knowledgable and passionate about the game, which was what we were looking for.

MyNameIsElias

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys,

First, just to clarify, the event last week wasn't exclusively for streamers. Yes, there were some streamers present, but there were also other content creators, and some that only post on the forums and never show their face. In general, we were looking for theorycrafters, players who know the game inside and out, and those who really get into the math and numbers. We also wanted a good mix of PvP and PvE players, and make sure all platforms were accounted for. All in all, we felt we met these goals.

We invited these players to give us some early feedback specifically on the Warden and battlegrounds. We also had a larger open Q&A about the game in general for a couple hours on their last day. While it's true they are currently under an NDA, they will be able to talk more about their experiences at the studio in just a couple weeks.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Surprised they invited Fengrush. Surprised he even went. Last vids I watched of him he was giving them harsh, constructive criticism. Maybe it's a love hate relationship...

Not everyone who was invited give us nothing but glowing reviews. But, like you said, Fengrush does give us constructive criticism, and that's ok. He is extremely knowledgable and passionate about the game, which was what we were looking for.

I can't wait to hear the story of how Lord FENGRUSH's first meeting with Wrobel went!

kyle.wilson

This is how I imagine the meeting went.

Malamar1229

Paulington wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As one of the people that went to Zenimax I just want to remind you and others that we that went are under a strict NDA (a non-disclosure agreement), we can't say anything. So any new info about the game that might have come out of this will be from the devs here on the forums, the main website or on ESO Live.

About everything discussed or about Morrowind?

I'm actually much more interested in your feedback and their responses than anything about Morrowind.

Everything we spoke about is under NDA.

When you guys flew into Maryland, was there a long loading screen?

Tonnopesce

How was the food?

But more important.... Did someone found this plant anywhere?

paulsimonps

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As one of the people that went to Zenimax I just want to remind you and others that we that went are under a strict NDA (a non-disclosure agreement), we can't say anything. So any new info about the game that might have come out of this will be from the devs here on the forums, the main website or on ESO Live.

About everything discussed or about Morrowind?

I'm actually much more interested in your feedback and their responses than anything about Morrowind.

Everything we spoke about is under NDA.

When you guys flew into Maryland, was there a long loading screen?

Loading Screen from Stockholm to Baltimore was insane....

ColoursYouHave

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Some form of game testing/balancing.

By an extremely narrow micro-section of the playing community.

Many of whom are involved in revenue generation schemes based on their "superior" knowledge of the game.

And some of whom are advertising mouthpieces for ESO whose income depends on that relationship.

And who are only allowed to discuss what happened on ZeniMax's terms.

And no one sees a problem with this.


I bet the corporate bean-counters are so glad that healthy cynicism is almost non existent among the ESO playerbase - makes crass monetisation even easier.


All The Best

Some form of game testing/balancing.

By an extremely knowledgeable micro-section of the playing community.

Many of whom spend hours per day playing this game as their job.

And some of whom have primarily positive feedback about ZOS, while others have a lot of negative feedback.

And who are not permitted to discuss their experience playing an update that has yet to have been released (as is the norm for situations like this; NDAs are a thing for a reason).

Sounds like a pretty damn good testing method if you ask me. Sure, people may gripe that it is only a small number of players participating, but ZOS can't realistically invite a large number of players to their studio, and they invited a diverse group of players, both in regards to how they play and how they view the development of ESO. People may also gripe that it is unfair that only dedicated, well-known members of the community were invited, but those people typically also have far more knowledge of both the game and the meta-game then your average player. I'd much rather have people who are currently dedicating a large portion of their time to playing this game providing feedback than some random players they pulled off the forums who just now realized the game needs an auction house and flying mounts. It would be very difficult for somebody to provide useful feedback if they don't understand the game very well, and ZOS invited people who they know understand the game very well.

kevlarto_ESO

I don't watch the streamers any longer it turned out to be hours upon hours of people whining about something, I am sure they will return and have new material to whine about, why anyone wastes time watching these people is beyond me, boring, arrogant and useless, that's my opinion and if you like that stuff rock on.. and no I am not whining about the whiners I am just pointing out what I came away with big difference.

Seems like the are constantly trying to get the dev's to change the direction of the game in a direction it was never intended to be, I bought the game to play like it was sold to me not have it redone by some arm chair dev wannabes.

sickboy2808

Was it only players from The U S of A invited?

runagate

sickboy2808 wrote: »

Was it only players from The U S of A invited?

No. @Paulington posted just above.

idk

Some in this thread may not be aware of the ESO Live this past Friday which included @FENGRUSH and @Sypher which some generic conversation about the meetings this past week.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys,

First, just to clarify, the event last week wasn't exclusively for streamers. Yes, there were some streamers present, but there were also other content creators, and some that only post on the forums and never show their face. In general, we were looking for theorycrafters, players who know the game inside and out, and those who really get into the math and numbers. We also wanted a good mix of PvP and PvE players, and make sure all platforms were accounted for. All in all, we felt we met these goals.

We invited these players to give us some early feedback specifically on the Warden and battlegrounds. We also had a larger open Q&A about the game in general for a couple hours on their last day. While it's true they are currently under an NDA, they will be able to talk more about their experiences at the studio in just a couple weeks.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Surprised they invited Fengrush. Surprised he even went. Last vids I watched of him he was giving them harsh, constructive criticism. Maybe it's a love hate relationship...

Not everyone who was invited give us nothing but glowing reviews. But, like you said, Fengrush does give us constructive criticism, and that's ok. He is extremely knowledgable and passionate about the game, which was what we were looking for.

Thanks for the clarification Gina. This was what I was looking for. I also like that you made it a point to invite people that are known for providing criticism so that you didn't just create an echo chamber of starry eyed fanboys. I think if this sort of post was submitted a bit earlier, it would have prevented a lot of the speculation and concerned threads. I'm glad you consider this successful and I hope you will let the community know in advance if this is to occur again so we can bring our concerns to those planning to attend. It would help the entire community feel more represented.

willlienellson

Surely there must be a way to find expert players who "get into math and numbers" while still excluding players that are making a living from trying to help players exploit game imbalance, not just videos for views.., but actually charging hundreds of dollars to individuals for expert training.

I don't understand why these are treated as mutually exclusive.

I have no problem with players profiting or charging others for their expertise.
And I have no problem with Zos looking for experts to help balance the game.

But they should be different experts. The appearance of impropriety should exclude those individuals from participation.

ZOS_GinaBruno

willlienellson wrote: »

Surely there must be a way to find expert players who "get into math and numbers" while still excluding players that are making a living from trying to help players exploit game imbalance, not just videos for views.., but actually charging hundreds of dollars to individuals for expert training.

I don't understand why these are treated as mutually exclusive.

I have no problem with players profiting or charging others for their expertise.
And I have no problem with Zos looking for experts to help balance the game.

But they should be different experts. The appearance of impropriety should exclude those individuals from participation.

Food for thought: Why should players who stream the game be excluded if they are just as knowledgable and passionate as someone who doesn't stream? We included both.

Mojmir

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Surely there must be a way to find expert players who "get into math and numbers" while still excluding players that are making a living from trying to help players exploit game imbalance, not just videos for views.., but actually charging hundreds of dollars to individuals for expert training.

I don't understand why these are treated as mutually exclusive.

I have no problem with players profiting or charging others for their expertise.
And I have no problem with Zos looking for experts to help balance the game.

But they should be different experts. The appearance of impropriety should exclude those individuals from participation.

Food for thought: Why should players who stream the game be excluded if they are just as knowledgable and passionate as someone who doesn't stream? We included both.

I'm guessing here,but your basically helping them make money indirectly?

Rohamad_Ali

Of all the things ZOS gets flak for , this one positive thing they have done gets pooped on by a few people still . When this should of been one of the things a bunch of people should be thankful for as they have finally been making great strides to embrace the community . I see no reason at all to make a stink over this great step ZoS made . No reason at all . They invited their biggest critics and supporters with some in between . That's as good as it gets really . Not to mention I can't think of any other game companies out there that are even cool enough to do that .

leepalmer95

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Surely there must be a way to find expert players who "get into math and numbers" while still excluding players that are making a living from trying to help players exploit game imbalance, not just videos for views.., but actually charging hundreds of dollars to individuals for expert training.

I don't understand why these are treated as mutually exclusive.

I have no problem with players profiting or charging others for their expertise.
And I have no problem with Zos looking for experts to help balance the game.

But they should be different experts. The appearance of impropriety should exclude those individuals from participation.

Food for thought: Why should players who stream the game be excluded if they are just as knowledgable and passionate as someone who doesn't stream? We included both.

They shouldn't.

That guy has been making threads ever since it was announced. He's very salty about the whole thing.

willlienellson

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Food for thought: Why should players who stream the game be excluded if they are just as knowledgable and passionate as someone who doesn't stream? We included both.

I'm glad you asked.

Some of these guys are running websites where they charge individual players up to $400 to be taught how to master the game and become "elite" powerful players.

If you were making money directly from helping players bridge a power gap, would it be in your interest to increase the gap or to make it more narrow?

It's a lot like Tax Preparing companies (Turbo Tax, etc) that lobby for the tax code to remain complex because it creates demand for their services.

This game is one of the most complex MMOs in terms of the sheer number of variables that go into determining the output of an ability. @Zos has officially stated as much when they described why lag in Cyrodiil is due to all the calculations that are taking place on a single attack that a player makes.

These variables can and are manipulated to find powerful synergies that generate exponentially more powerful players than average players that don't understand them. And I don't think that's a problem. But I do think it's a problem when people who profit from explaining these variables and profit from training people to exploit these variables have more opportunity than others to influence those variables.

To be fair, I acknowledged that they were experts in the post to which you replied, and also stated why they should be excluded from the pool of experts helping to balance the game because of the appearance of impropriety when they profit from training players how to maximize the power from the mechanics they have more influence in balancing than most players.

I mean, I know very few are going to agree with me, and a Zos employee probably least of all, but I believe if this model were applied to another industry it would lead to more broad rebuke.

I personally find it absurd that people who's primary goal isn't to play the game for enjoyment but to profit from the game are given priority for feedback and access to early information.

This game has a constantly increasing power gap problem, where average and max DPS that used to be 15k vs 30k has spread to being 20k vs 70k. And the very people who are charging people (sometimes hundreds of dollars individually) to bridge that gap are influencing the mechanics that cause that gap and getting early access to information so their performance can be even further above average when the next patch drops.

And that's just specifically DPS, to say nothing of all the other factors that come into play even more in a PVP setting.

After all that special feedback and extra info, maybe the "Master Training" course will increase from $400 to $600 for the next update. And why shouldn't it? It may make you so much more powerful than the average player, it may be worth every penny. Why should these lobbyists be worth any less than other lobbyists with special access?

I could be wrong. I could be wrong about every single thing. But the appearance of impropriety itself is a big enough problem (or would be in almost any other circumstances).

Metafae

Is there a list of the people who were invited to this event, I'm curious to see who was chosen, and what reason each was chosen for.

willlienellson

leepalmer95 wrote: »

That guy has been making threads ever since it was announced. He's very salty about the whole thing.

1 thread. Singular. And you seem kinda salty about that single thread to be honest. Lol

runagate

Metafae wrote: »

Is there a list of the people who were invited to this event, I'm curious to see who was chosen, and what reason each was chosen for.

No, somewhere someone mentioned that they were leaving it up to the individual participants to mention that they'd been invited there.

ColoursYouHave

willlienellson wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Food for thought: Why should players who stream the game be excluded if they are just as knowledgable and passionate as someone who doesn't stream? We included both.

I'm glad you asked.

Some of these guys are running websites where they charge individual players up to $400 to be taught how to master the game and become "elite" powerful players.

If you were making money directly from helping players bridge a power gap, would it be in your interest to increase the gap or to make it more narrow?

It's a lot like Tax Preparing companies (Turbo Tax, etc) that lobby for the tax code to remain complex because it creates demand for their services.

This game is one of the most complex MMOs in terms of the sheer number of variables that go into determining the output of an ability. @Zos has officially stated as much when they described why lag in Cyrodiil is due to all the calculations that are taking place on a single attack that a player makes.

These variables can and are manipulated to find powerful synergies that generate exponentially more powerful players than average players that don't understand them. And I don't think that's a problem. But I do think it's a problem when people who profit from explaining these variables and profit from training people to exploit these variables have more opportunity than others to influence those variables.

To be fair, I acknowledged that they were experts in the post to which you replied, and also stated why they should be excluded from the pool of experts helping to balance the game because of the appearance of impropriety when they profit from training players how to maximize the power from the mechanics they have more influence in balancing than most players.

I mean, I know very few are going to agree with me, and a Zos employee probably least of all, but I believe if this model were applied to another industry it would lead to more broad rebuke.

I personally find it absurd that people who's primary goal isn't to play the game for enjoyment but to profit from the game are given priority for feedback and access to early information.

This game has a constantly increasing power gap problem, where average and max DPS that used to be 15k vs 30k has spread to being 20k vs 70k. And the very people who are charging people (sometimes hundreds of dollars individually) to bridge that gap are influencing the mechanics that cause that gap and getting early access to information so their performance can be even further above average when the next patch drops.

And that's just specifically DPS, to say nothing of all the other factors that come into play even more in a PVP setting.

After all that special feedback and extra info, maybe the "Master Training" course will increase from $400 to $600 for the next update. And why shouldn't it? It may make you so much more powerful than the average player, it may be worth every penny. Why should these lobbyists be worth any less than other lobbyists with special access?

I could be wrong. I could be wrong about every single thing. But the appearance of impropriety itself is a big enough problem (or would be in almost any other circumstances).

I think you are vastly overstating the profit certain players make from training other players. You also act as though these players are playing strictly to profit by training others, rather than using their skill and expertise to sell training to make a little extra money on the side. There is not nearly enough money to be made selling training in ESO for it to be a remotely significant source of income, and no amount of feedback anybody could ever provide will change that. You're basically saying players who are incredibly passionate about this game would be willing to make the game worse for a minuscule amount of additional income, which is simply ridiculous. Plus, if these players are streamers, the majority of their income comes from Twitch, and the cost of making the game worse in losing viewers, subs, etc. would far outweigh any gains they could make by making the game more difficult so they could charge more for training.

Honestly, I feel ridiculous even having this discussion. You really think people have dedicated hundreds upon hundreds of hours playing this game over several years not because they enjoy it, but because they might be able to make a couple hundred dollars training other players? Come on now.

Metafae

runagate wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

Is there a list of the people who were invited to this event, I'm curious to see who was chosen, and what reason each was chosen for.

No, somewhere someone mentioned that they were leaving it up to the individual participants to mention that they'd been invited there.

Good to know, I hope they all had a good time.