Magicka Sorcs got WAY to much love...

xboxNA corin6

Lord-Otto wrote: »

No chance.
Not only is it awkward to use and gets broken randomly by "allies", but I can't see space for it.
What are you giving up for it?

I use Healing Ward, Harness magicka, Surge, and curse on my backbar, with the choice between mines, rune, and boundless. Mines usually fits well on overload, and boundless is meh to me. Sometimes I put wrath on my backbar with magelight on the front, but I don't really like that setup as much.

Izaki

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

When three specific people curse you, yeah, you should die. Sorc defenses (shields) also fail miserably against any three people over you. Heck, they already fail against two hard hitters. Welcome to our world.

Can we talk about gapclosers completely negate our mobility in Streak?

What's different now than before? Curse is unchanged for the first 3.5 seconds. Don't tell me you can't deal with 8% more damage!

And oneshots from stealth are still uncounterable. Yes, you can slot Radiant M-Light and D-Rune, but please... You could also run Purge or Bone Shield.


You know how you people sound to me? You're crying over having become mortal again. I've seen stam builds constantly dodge trolling around trees for a very long time, annoying the heck out of groups that should vaporize them. Now these days are gone and you simply have to adapt to fighting for real.

So for you its "balanced" that 3 people press 1 key and the target dies after 3.5 seconds? lol

Why I am wasting my time with you. Curse been unblockable its a joke. And you saying sorcerers are perfectly balanced its unthinkable.

Running purge or boneshield on a medium armour stamina build? How unviable its that? Use purge ones and your entire magicka pool its gone, while you can spaam shields using your main stat, or use defensive rune like you said and prevent ganks (oh wait, it uses magicka and stays on for 30 seconds if its not more?) What a joke.

You know that Curse used to be unblock able for the majority of the lifetime of the game, right? It was blockable for 2 patches.

Izaki

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

When three specific people curse you, yeah, you should die. Sorc defenses (shields) also fail miserably against any three people over you. Heck, they already fail against two hard hitters. Welcome to our world.

Can we talk about gapclosers completely negate our mobility in Streak?

What's different now than before? Curse is unchanged for the first 3.5 seconds. Don't tell me you can't deal with 8% more damage!

And oneshots from stealth are still uncounterable. Yes, you can slot Radiant M-Light and D-Rune, but please... You could also run Purge or Bone Shield.


You know how you people sound to me? You're crying over having become mortal again. I've seen stam builds constantly dodge trolling around trees for a very long time, annoying the heck out of groups that should vaporize them. Now these days are gone and you simply have to adapt to fighting for real.

I can definitely agree that gap closers are a problem simple remove the snare and your class would be fine.

I disagree with you stance on roll dodge, it's countered by multiple undodgeable skills addtionaly a successful dodge roll requires LOS something than anyone can do even mSorcs with Daedric mines

Lastly imo Curse became OP once they made it unblockable, then slapped non sorcs in the face by allowing it to potentially blow up twice without casting it again.

Not to quite that extent.

Dodge also breaks roots and dodges unlimited, dodgable, moves for a long time that persists even while attacking.You can cancel into it, unlike shields and streak. And it helps with snares, as it travels a set distance.
It's not the same with sorcs and mines. Mines tickle now since there's a cooldown on their damage. They were dangerous when you crit rushed through three, but now you'll only take one damage. They are also a death sentence when outnumbered, as they're immobile. A stationary sorc is a dead sorc. Streak also lets you eat all damage aimed at you while you're wasting 1.5 global cooldowns for one streak. Dodge is FAR superior.

It's okay that dodge has counters because of that. Mind you those counters are fairly weak.
I'm fine with removing them if you give me magicka dodgeroll. Other than that, it should stay this way. Actually needs I-frames nerfed. No dodge while you're swinging your club, that's ridiculous!

The double whammy on curse is a waste in open combat, trust me. I can tell you that a curse every four secs is outhealed by vigor. It became unblockable because we lost unblockable streak CC. Now, do you prefer an unblockable curse or an unblockable meteor? Your choice.
But trust me, you got a big boon from streak CC nerf.

It also has a stacking cost and is vulnerable to AoEs and Beam attacks like RD and Soul Assault.

I wouldn't be opposed to magic dodge rolling however you would quickly revert back to shields since it will probably have a stacking cost machanic and dealing with all the AoEs and Beam attacks in cyrodil, shields are superior imo allows you to wear infused/Divines.

If Meteor became unblockable it wouldn't matter to me most people cast meteor and follow up with an unblockable CC to make sure it hits.Can't dodge it, Reflect it, or Cloak it might as well make it unblockable like EOtS and make it that much easier to use. I would rather have Curse be blockable since it's up more than meteor.

Shields don't allow you to wear divines if you run them on the back bar. With a shield on the front bar, yeah its possible, with shields on back bar, don't even dream of it. Lets face it, its much much better to have shields on the back bar for proper stacking in outnumbered situations. Shields also scale very badly with numbers, 3 people will have you shielding up more than doing damage and with 4 people you're just delaying the inevitable. You know stamina classes have access to this skill, called Blade Cloak, that reduces AoE damage by 20%. Pair that with roll dodge and block, superior mobility due to the fact that you can purge snares, you have a very tough to kill stamina build, even in medium armor. I agree with the fact that no one needed the damage buffs this patch, including sorcerers, but a change to shields would be an extremely healthy thing.

My thoughts on the whole shield thing, is that they should not be stackable (aside from Healing Ward) and they need to be buffed in strength. At this point, Sorcerer survivability will be literally terrible and we'll get something like a self heal or another source of damage mitigation. either that, or change harness magicka/dampen magicka to something completely different aka not a shield. This would indirectly prevent Sorcs from shield stacking (stupid mechanic) 3 shields and would give sorcs a unique shield.

Anti_Virus

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

When three specific people curse you, yeah, you should die. Sorc defenses (shields) also fail miserably against any three people over you. Heck, they already fail against two hard hitters. Welcome to our world.

Can we talk about gapclosers completely negate our mobility in Streak?

What's different now than before? Curse is unchanged for the first 3.5 seconds. Don't tell me you can't deal with 8% more damage!

And oneshots from stealth are still uncounterable. Yes, you can slot Radiant M-Light and D-Rune, but please... You could also run Purge or Bone Shield.


You know how you people sound to me? You're crying over having become mortal again. I've seen stam builds constantly dodge trolling around trees for a very long time, annoying the heck out of groups that should vaporize them. Now these days are gone and you simply have to adapt to fighting for real.

I can definitely agree that gap closers are a problem simple remove the snare and your class would be fine.

I disagree with you stance on roll dodge, it's countered by multiple undodgeable skills addtionaly a successful dodge roll requires LOS something than anyone can do even mSorcs with Daedric mines

Lastly imo Curse became OP once they made it unblockable, then slapped non sorcs in the face by allowing it to potentially blow up twice without casting it again.

Not to quite that extent.

Dodge also breaks roots and dodges unlimited, dodgable, moves for a long time that persists even while attacking.You can cancel into it, unlike shields and streak. And it helps with snares, as it travels a set distance.
It's not the same with sorcs and mines. Mines tickle now since there's a cooldown on their damage. They were dangerous when you crit rushed through three, but now you'll only take one damage. They are also a death sentence when outnumbered, as they're immobile. A stationary sorc is a dead sorc. Streak also lets you eat all damage aimed at you while you're wasting 1.5 global cooldowns for one streak. Dodge is FAR superior.

It's okay that dodge has counters because of that. Mind you those counters are fairly weak.
I'm fine with removing them if you give me magicka dodgeroll. Other than that, it should stay this way. Actually needs I-frames nerfed. No dodge while you're swinging your club, that's ridiculous!

The double whammy on curse is a waste in open combat, trust me. I can tell you that a curse every four secs is outhealed by vigor. It became unblockable because we lost unblockable streak CC. Now, do you prefer an unblockable curse or an unblockable meteor? Your choice.
But trust me, you got a big boon from streak CC nerf.

It also has a stacking cost and is vulnerable to AoEs and Beam attacks like RD and Soul Assault.

I wouldn't be opposed to magic dodge rolling however you would quickly revert back to shields since it will probably have a stacking cost machanic and dealing with all the AoEs and Beam attacks in cyrodil, shields are superior imo allows you to wear infused/Divines.

If Meteor became unblockable it wouldn't matter to me most people cast meteor and follow up with an unblockable CC to make sure it hits.Can't dodge it, Reflect it, or Cloak it might as well make it unblockable like EOtS and make it that much easier to use. I would rather have Curse be blockable since it's up more than meteor.

Shields don't allow you to wear divines if you run them on the back bar. With a shield on the front bar, yeah its possible, with shields on back bar, don't even dream of it. Lets face it, its much much better to have shields on the back bar for proper stacking in outnumbered situations. Shields also scale very badly with numbers, 3 people will have you shielding up more than doing damage and with 4 people you're just delaying the inevitable. You know stamina classes have access to this skill, called Blade Cloak, that reduces AoE damage by 20%. Pair that with roll dodge and block, superior mobility due to the fact that you can purge snares, you have a very tough to kill stamina build, even in medium armor. I agree with the fact that no one needed the damage buffs this patch, including sorcerers, but a change to shields would be an extremely healthy thing.

My thoughts on the whole shield thing, is that they should not be stackable (aside from Healing Ward) and they need to be buffed in strength. At this point, Sorcerer survivability will be literally terrible and we'll get something like a self heal or another source of damage mitigation. either that, or change harness magicka/dampen magicka to something completely different aka not a shield. This would indirectly prevent Sorcs from shield stacking (stupid mechanic) 3 shields and would give sorcs a unique shield.

Well IIRC Sorcs do have a burst self-heal right? You just have to have a pet active on two bars. I can play my fine with one shield (gardens ward) and the heal pet which has heals the can equal BoL for templars.

If they allowed shield to have there full strength, make them non stack able, and non refresh able I think it would be a great start.

[Edit]

Yes great assessment I cannot disagree with the fact that shield do not scale effectively as dodgerolling when faced with multiple opponents.

Anti_Virus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

When three specific people curse you, yeah, you should die. Sorc defenses (shields) also fail miserably against any three people over you. Heck, they already fail against two hard hitters. Welcome to our world.

Can we talk about gapclosers completely negate our mobility in Streak?

What's different now than before? Curse is unchanged for the first 3.5 seconds. Don't tell me you can't deal with 8% more damage!

And oneshots from stealth are still uncounterable. Yes, you can slot Radiant M-Light and D-Rune, but please... You could also run Purge or Bone Shield.


You know how you people sound to me? You're crying over having become mortal again. I've seen stam builds constantly dodge trolling around trees for a very long time, annoying the heck out of groups that should vaporize them. Now these days are gone and you simply have to adapt to fighting for real.

I can definitely agree that gap closers are a problem simple remove the snare and your class would be fine.

I disagree with you stance on roll dodge, it's countered by multiple undodgeable skills addtionaly a successful dodge roll requires LOS something than anyone can do even mSorcs with Daedric mines

Lastly imo Curse became OP once they made it unblockable, then slapped non sorcs in the face by allowing it to potentially blow up twice without casting it again.

Not to quite that extent.

Dodge also breaks roots and dodges unlimited, dodgable, moves for a long time that persists even while attacking.You can cancel into it, unlike shields and streak. And it helps with snares, as it travels a set distance.
It's not the same with sorcs and mines. Mines tickle now since there's a cooldown on their damage. They were dangerous when you crit rushed through three, but now you'll only take one damage. They are also a death sentence when outnumbered, as they're immobile. A stationary sorc is a dead sorc. Streak also lets you eat all damage aimed at you while you're wasting 1.5 global cooldowns for one streak. Dodge is FAR superior.

It's okay that dodge has counters because of that. Mind you those counters are fairly weak.
I'm fine with removing them if you give me magicka dodgeroll. Other than that, it should stay this way. Actually needs I-frames nerfed. No dodge while you're swinging your club, that's ridiculous!

The double whammy on curse is a waste in open combat, trust me. I can tell you that a curse every four secs is outhealed by vigor. It became unblockable because we lost unblockable streak CC. Now, do you prefer an unblockable curse or an unblockable meteor? Your choice.
But trust me, you got a big boon from streak CC nerf.

It also has a stacking cost and is vulnerable to AoEs and Beam attacks like RD and Soul Assault.

I wouldn't be opposed to magic dodge rolling however you would quickly revert back to shields since it will probably have a stacking cost machanic and dealing with all the AoEs and Beam attacks in cyrodil, shields are superior imo allows you to wear infused/Divines.

If Meteor became unblockable it wouldn't matter to me most people cast meteor and follow up with an unblockable CC to make sure it hits.Can't dodge it, Reflect it, or Cloak it might as well make it unblockable like EOtS and make it that much easier to use. I would rather have Curse be blockable since it's up more than meteor.

Nailed it. Sorcs don't have unblockable CC anymore. Streak used to. That got removed in favor of curse unblockable. Ever eaten a meteor+fossilize? Fear? Trust me, you're much better off now. Look, with streak's old CC, I could drop your block, anyway. I don't have to spell out the implication, right?

You can wear infused with shields. You still need impen on small pieces, plus CP in resistance. GG. You'll get smoked with 0 impen, despite shields.

If I'm not mistaken dark prison and it's morphs go through Block.

Lord-Otto

So it works like this.

You can put Defensive Rune on Overload bar, no problem. You can also put Rune Cage on backbar.

If you use Overload, you waste the Meteor slot. Destro ult is strong, but you just need extreme burst against certain healing-intensive builds. You can also use Meteor from your Overload bar, but that'll cost you a skill slot and I can't see spending two slots on utility affordable.

If you backbar Rune Cage (or Defensive), you'll have to pay for that with your mines, buff or boundless. It is a hefty price to pay and will put you at a severe disadvantage. Even if you were willing to pay that price, btw, you'd be better off with Mist to counter these root destro ult groups.

It simply comes down to the massive slot waste we have in shields. People easily overlook how dodge and block are slot-free skills.
It was all good when Streak had the unblockable CC. And I can't remember anyone complaining about it. You can't just look at Curse and complain about it while ignoring the Streak nerf that came along with it.

Anti_Virus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So it works like this.

You can put Defensive Rune on Overload bar, no problem. You can also put Rune Cage on backbar.

If you use Overload, you waste the Meteor slot. Destro ult is strong, but you just need extreme burst against certain healing-intensive builds. You can also use Meteor from your Overload bar, but that'll cost you a skill slot and I can't see spending two slots on utility affordable.

If you backbar Rune Cage (or Defensive), you'll have to pay for that with your mines, buff or boundless. It is a hefty price to pay and will put you at a severe disadvantage. Even if you were willing to pay that price, btw, you'd be better off with Mist to counter these root destro ult groups.

It simply comes down to the massive slot waste we have in shields. People easily overlook how dodge and block are slot-free skills.
It was all good when Streak had the unblockable CC. And I can't remember anyone complaining about it. You can't just look at Curse and complain about it while ignoring the Streak nerf that came along with it.

You're right Dodge and Block are slot free skills but one has to evaluate two things.

- Dodge and Block are used in conjunction with Stamina based classes main Dmg skills, and if OOS(Out of stamina) you die, if you run OOM you can still survive with block/dodge.

- You yourself can also use Dodge/Block to the same effectiveness as a stamina build Albiet not as much. A stam build cannot use Magicka based shields to the same effect as magicka builds so the reverse is untrue.

Lord-Otto

Anti,
your first point is exactly what solves the second. Stamina builds can use magicka freely for utility. Magicka builds NEED the stamina to break free or they die.
Blocking and dodging is therefore very risky for magicka builds, especially sorcerers. You typically pay for it in some way, be that tri-stat food instead of bi-stat, serpent mundus instead of thief, or expensive immo potions.
This is all good and well, until root spam gets involved. It's a big problem that has slipped unter the radar, but is catching up attention. When stamina builds complain about undodgable curse and EotS, they ignore the undodgable roots magicka has to deal with.

I'll ignore the shields for now, post too long already. xD Basically, stamina HoTs should equal magicka burst heal/shield, and dodge/mobility is there to make sure the HoTs run the duration.

Mojomonkeyman

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti,
your first point is exactly what solves the second. Stamina builds can use magicka freely for utility. Magicka builds NEED the stamina to break free or they die.
Blocking and dodging is therefore very risky for magicka builds, especially sorcerers. You typically pay for it in some way, be that tri-stat food instead of bi-stat, serpent mundus instead of thief, or expensive immo potions.
This is all good and well, until root spam gets involved. It's a big problem that has slipped unter the radar, but is catching up attention. When stamina builds complain about undodgable curse and EotS, they ignore the undodgable roots magicka has to deal with.

I'll ignore the shields for now, post too long already. xD Basically, stamina HoTs should equal magicka burst heal/shield, and dodge/mobility is there to make sure the HoTs run the duration.

This "one pool vs two pools" argument is so nonsense, it was used by stamina players back in vanilla eso for a year to make the same point against domination of sticks & dresses... "ZOS, look at those op mag classes having 2 pools to make use of, while we poor stam classes only have one" "They can still defend when they have used all their offensive ressources, while we can`t"

They were as wrong as you are. You will never hear any good player who is experienced in both aspects (stam & mag) bringing that up as a reason for discrepancy in balance, because it just isnt.

Your next argument is as uninformed. When I`m magicka starved on my stamsorc, I am dead meat. I need to manage both pools just as much as I did when playing magsorc. Stam classes face the problems you do, not only that, theres a multitude of regular skills cutting through the most important defensive mechanics of stam classes (dodge roll & block), while there`s only one shield breaker.

Stop being so biased.

Lord-Otto

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

zuto40

sorcs just need shield to be critable and 20 seconds long again then boom class is fine, nightblades are fine, templars are fine, dk's however need to be nerfed into the ground, stomped on, lit on fire, and left to burn in a ditch far away from me

Lord-Otto

zuto40 wrote: »

sorcs just need shield to be critable and 20 seconds long again then boom class is fine, nightblades are fine, templars are fine, dk's however need to be nerfed into the ground, stomped on, lit on fire, and left to burn in a ditch far away from me

Errr... Mag DKs are permanently on fire, you'd do them a favor. If you really want to torture them, force them to eat ice cream!
>;)

Minalan

A few notes here:

Remember that sorcs and templars can block now too, just pick up a frost staff and it drains your Magicka pool. It's just *much* more effective with a sturdy shield and heavy armor because of the extra mitigation. But the option is there for magicka.

The sorc 'heal' is tied to using a pet. LOL pets. Again. I love it when they stop moving as soon as 12-18 people are around. I had one running into a keep wall a week ago doing god only knows what.

Sorcs get the overload bar, so there's no reason not to have rune cage except that you already use the anti-ganking morph. Stop crying about mandatory slots, plenty of sorcs use pots for both major sorcery and to proc the clever alchemist set. There's Another one.

I'm sorry it's hard now for some of you nightblades to 1v5 sorcs and win, but you really shouldn't have been able to in the first place. Again. Your class was overpowered, and some of you mistakenly thought you were much better than you are. Incendiary comment, but it's true. After the shield nerf I had to get much BETTER at the game. During TG I thought I was good, but I really wasn't because double stacking two twenty second shields was terribly unbalanced.

thankyourat

zuto40 wrote: »

sorcs just need shield to be critable and 20 seconds long again then boom class is fine, nightblades are fine, templars are fine, dk's however need to be nerfed into the ground, stomped on, lit on fire, and left to burn in a ditch far away from me

Or make shields unable to be stacked and then unerf streak and also fix cloak so builds don't need to rely on shield stacking, they can use mobility like they were designed to do... And then yes nerf dks into the ground

Anti_Virus

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti,
your first point is exactly what solves the second. Stamina builds can use magicka freely for utility. Magicka builds NEED the stamina to break free or they die.
Blocking and dodging is therefore very risky for magicka builds, especially sorcerers. You typically pay for it in some way, be that tri-stat food instead of bi-stat, serpent mundus instead of thief, or expensive immo potions.
This is all good and well, until root spam gets involved. It's a big problem that has slipped unter the radar, but is catching up attention. When stamina builds complain about undodgable curse and EotS, they ignore the undodgable roots magicka has to deal with.

I'll ignore the shields for now, post too long already. xD Basically, stamina HoTs should equal magicka burst heal/shield, and dodge/mobility is there to make sure the HoTs run the duration.

This "one pool vs two pools" argument is so nonsense, it was used by stamina players back in vanilla eso for a year to make the same point against domination of sticks & dresses... "ZOS, look at those op mag classes having 2 pools to make use of, while we poor stam classes only have one" "They can still defend when they have used all their offensive ressources, while we can`t"

They were as wrong as you are. You will never hear any good player who is experienced in both aspects (stam & mag) bringing that up as a reason for discrepancy in balance, because it just isnt.

Your next argument is as uninformed. When I`m magicka starved on my stamsorc, I am dead meat. I need to manage both pools just as much as I did when playing magsorc. Stam classes face the problems you do, not only that, theres a multitude of regular skills cutting through the most important defensive mechanics of stam classes (dodge roll & block), while there`s only one shield breaker.

Stop being so biased.

This.

Anti_Virus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes common sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta in one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then you simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simply because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

Waffennacht

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

Gotta say, a magicka based dodge roll may become OP. They tested stamina based wards and found dodge roll + wards based on the same pool =way too much.

thankyourat

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti,
your first point is exactly what solves the second. Stamina builds can use magicka freely for utility. Magicka builds NEED the stamina to break free or they die.
Blocking and dodging is therefore very risky for magicka builds, especially sorcerers. You typically pay for it in some way, be that tri-stat food instead of bi-stat, serpent mundus instead of thief, or expensive immo potions.
This is all good and well, until root spam gets involved. It's a big problem that has slipped unter the radar, but is catching up attention. When stamina builds complain about undodgable curse and EotS, they ignore the undodgable roots magicka has to deal with.

I'll ignore the shields for now, post too long already. xD Basically, stamina HoTs should equal magicka burst heal/shield, and dodge/mobility is there to make sure the HoTs run the duration.

This "one pool vs two pools" argument is so nonsense, it was used by stamina players back in vanilla eso for a year to make the same point against domination of sticks & dresses... "ZOS, look at those op mag classes having 2 pools to make use of, while we poor stam classes only have one" "They can still defend when they have used all their offensive ressources, while we can`t"

They were as wrong as you are. You will never hear any good player who is experienced in both aspects (stam & mag) bringing that up as a reason for discrepancy in balance, because it just isnt.

Your next argument is as uninformed. When I`m magicka starved on my stamsorc, I am dead meat. I need to manage both pools just as much as I did when playing magsorc. Stam classes face the problems you do, not only that, theres a multitude of regular skills cutting through the most important defensive mechanics of stam classes (dodge roll & block), while there`s only one shield breaker.

Stop being so biased.

Alot of staminas dependency on magicka though is because they run such low stam regen. The only class as a stam build that really needs magicka to survive is stamblade. But generally it is true that stamina is alot more important to maintain for magicka build than it is vice versa. Also most magicka builds can't use shields to face tank you are only thinking of sorc in this situation. Even on a light armor magblade (unless you are running necro and pirate skeleton) if you try shield stacking you will get smacked and zerged down so fast. Magicka builds have different ways to stay alive. Also shields aren't strong, sheild stacking is strong. Like how often do you see a light armor dk with dampen same with Templar they don't really exist because it's just not very strong. So shields have a counter the counter is they only really absorb 1 or 2 hits like if I see a light armor magplar in cyrodiil I could burst through his shield and probably 75℅ of his health with one burst combo. Shield stacking is completely broken no one likes it not even sorcs.

As for the balance between two pools I completely agree in a 1v1 seting there is no imbalance and there also is no imbalance for group play. you don't really notice how important stamina is until you play solo PvP. If your walk around solo in cyrodiil with 9k stamina you are going to have a bad time, it's doable but alot more difficult than playing stamina. You can really see a imbalance there. it's basically pushing solo PVPers into stamina builds. A low stamina pool combined with roots is a death trap.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

A few notes here:

Remember that sorcs and templars can block now too, just pick up a frost staff and it drains your Magicka pool. It's just *much* more effective with a sturdy shield and heavy armor because of the extra mitigation. But the option is there for magicka.

The sorc 'heal' is tied to using a pet. LOL pets. Again. I love it when they stop moving as soon as 12-18 people are around. I had one running into a keep wall a week ago doing god only knows what.

Sorcs get the overload bar, so there's no reason not to have rune cage except that you already use the anti-ganking morph. Stop crying about mandatory slots, plenty of sorcs use pots for both major sorcery and to proc the clever alchemist set. There's Another one.

I'm sorry it's hard now for some of you nightblades to 1v5 sorcsand win, but you really shouldn't have been able to in the first place. Again. Your class was overpowered, and some of you mistakenly thought you were much better than you are. Incendiary comment, but it's true. After the shield nerf I had to get much BETTER at the game. During TG I thought I was good, but I really wasn't because double stacking two twenty second shields was terribly unbalanced.

1. The Pet heal was mentioned to debunk the notion that Sorcs do not have a good self heal which is a lie. Your claim that pets "run into walls" is merely anecdotal at best and at worst a lie plenty of mSorcs that run pet builds don't report this problem so why do you?

If you don't like pet builds that's fine no one should be forced to play them but ths class was designed to use them whether you like them or not and it only hurts you if you ignore them, also Zos has buffed pets every single patch.

2. You keep up with these assumptions, who here said that anyone should be able to 1v5? This is about balance here. When on the topic of what class is "OP" that claim for any class is merely an opinion. And is shoutes the loudest

Each class has there respective role and NBs role is to hit and run.

If you are tired of getting "ganked" perhaps instead of complaining and having prejudice against the class and players that play it, you need to discuss ways for NBs to be more survivable in Open combat which would undermind the build philosophy of 'hit and run' for NBs

Atm my only gripes with mSorcs is simply Curse not Being blockable ( I don't care about double explosion) force pulse change going through wing butchering a class defining skill even further and Staff dmg being equal to melee in PVP and especially in PVE while having superior survivability( shields) and satfy of range and at ths same time making stam builds useless.

Minalan

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Agreed. But its there now I guess it can be used in an emergency if shields are down.

Anti_Virus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

Gotta say, a magicka based dodge roll may become OP. They tested stamina based wards and found dodge roll + wards based on the same pool =way too much.

Well I wish they kept the stam shield only for PVE to help with survivability in dungeons and Trials.

Minalan

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Agreed. But its there now I guess it can be used in an emergency if shields are down.

If it's an emergency, it's better to stamina block with a higher damage staff.

You see, Every GOOD player in this game balances their build to have enough stamina, Magicka, and health to survive.

Bad players Min/Max damage to the moon, then come crying on the forums when their stam nightblade with 17K health and all divines dies to two or three curses. Or mag sorcs with 9K stamina and 600 regen die to a couple of CC's, then wonder why. Or mag sorcs with no impen get one shotted with shields down and think that snipe is OP..

Put some stamina regen on your sorc, get some stam regen monster pieces (blood spawn) and glyphs, and use food and enchants that add stamina. Put some impen and health on your stamina nightblade, so that every curse isn't an auto-crit with 80% extra damage and instant death.

Everyone needs to stop the blubbering. Fix your damn build. Find the weaknesses and take care of business. It's not worth 10% more damage if you die super easy. Glass cannon builds are not MEANT to be viable.

thankyourat

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Agreed. But its there now I guess it can be used in an emergency if shields are down.

If it's an emergency, it's better to stamina block with a higher damage staff.

You see, Every GOOD player in this game balances their build to have enough stamina, Magicka, and health to survive.

Bad players Min/Max damage to the moon, then come crying on the forums when their stam nightblade with 17K health and all divines dies to two or three curses. Or mag sorcs with 9K stamina and 600 regen die to a couple of CC's, then wonder why. Or mag sorcs with no impen get one shotted with shields down and think that snipe is OP..

Put some stamina regen on your sorc, get some stam regen monster pieces (blood spawn) and glyphs, and use food and enchants that add stamina. Put some impen and health on your stamina nightblade, so that every curse isn't an auto-crit with 80% extra damage and instant death.

Everyone needs to stop the blubbering. Fix your damn build. Find the weaknesses and take care of business. It's not worth 10% more damage if you die super easy. Glass cannon builds are not MEANT to be viable.

This would probably clear up 95℅ of the topics on the forums

Lokey0024

Love watching people focus all their energy avoiding my massive 3k Whips while a sorc goes full magikachainsaw CS/LA spam and nukes them.

Valencer

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I haven`t found a single top EU mSorc who wouldnt agree that mSorc was more close to being balanced last patch before buffs. After reading this disussion, I feel there´s three kinds of mSorcs:

Those who know, but stay quiet.
Those who know, but downplay.
Those who simply don`t know, because they are not on the level evaluate correctly.

It`s pretty easy to tell in this thread who is who. Sadly the last group seems to be the loudest.

I don't think there's ever been an ESO version where magicka sorcs have really struggled with anything PvP-related.

And good for them... but it gets old fast when people try to argue that buffs were somehow desperately needed.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Agreed. But its there now I guess it can be used in an emergency if shields are down.

If it's an emergency, it's better to stamina block with a higher damage staff.

You see, Every GOOD player in this game balances their build to have enough stamina, Magicka, and health to survive.

Bad players Min/Max damage to the moon, then come crying on the forums when their stam nightblade with 17K health and all divines dies to two or three curses. Or mag sorcs with 9K stamina and 600 regen die to a couple of CC's, then wonder why. Or mag sorcs with no impen get one shotted with shields down and think that snipe is OP..

Put some stamina regen on your sorc, get some stam regen monster pieces (blood spawn) and glyphs, and use food and enchants that add stamina. Put some impen and health on your stamina nightblade, so that every curse isn't an auto-crit with 80% extra damage and instant death.

Everyone needs to stop the blubbering. Fix your damn build. Find the weaknesses and take care of business. It's not worth 10% more damage if you die super easy. Glass cannon builds are not MEANT to be viable.

Are you replying to my other post? Or this one because your response here to this post makes no sense.

And yes glass cannon builds are meant to be viable, but only good at one thing dealing high dmg that's it. So people that complain about NBs makes me laugh I have no problem fighting them on my Stam DK but the NB class is revolved around glass cannon to an extent, but asking for survivability is wrong unless you sacrifice the dmg to gain it.

Waffennacht

Valencer wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I haven`t found a single top EU mSorc who wouldnt agree that mSorc was more close to being balanced last patch before buffs. After reading this disussion, I feel there´s three kinds of mSorcs:

Those who know, but stay quiet.
Those who know, but downplay.
Those who simply don`t know, because they are not on the level evaluate correctly.

It`s pretty easy to tell in this thread who is who. Sadly the last group seems to be the loudest.

I don't think there's ever been an ESO version where magicka sorcs have really struggled with anything PvP-related.

And good for them... but it gets old fast when people try to argue that buffs were somehow desperately needed.

These buffs aren't even what people are complaining about. No one here has mentioned, as an example, stacking fire staff + slimecraw with say BSW and Alchemist hitting insane numbers + unblockable Curse.

No, That's not the issue, it's Curse goes off twice!

All joking aside the only reason people are complaining is because every FOTM player that just watched X streamers video is re roling to Sorc and now there is even 5 sorcs to cast Curse.

Member when, "I've seen maybe two magicka sorcerers in Cyrodiil." (Actual forum quote) ?

I member.

Get mad that the monkey horde has no preference and will run whatever X streamers tell them.

KisoValley

I do find some of the posts on this thread funny.

Minalan

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biased, he says, then tells me about his stamsorc and resource management...
xD
Riiight.

Matter of fact, when your magicka is out, you can still block, dodge, heal, attack, run...
When my stamina is out, I get stunned for three seconds and die.

Yes you are bias, looking through your post history you seem deny facts and sometimes commom sense when presented to you in defence of your opinion to continue to validate it.

I remember you claimed that heavy armor is the meta i one thread when you're claim was debunked by a graph from the devs proving your claim false you ignored it and belittled it without any evidence of your own.

Here I and others simply gave our opinions then reinforced it with facts, then yoy simply once again belittled it with none of your own.

Like Minalan said if you want to block you can now use an Ice staff it will drain your magicka but its possible similarly to a stamina build except you can shield yourself on top of it. If Zos added a magic based dodge roll I wouldn't be opposed to that either although I suspect that just like the Ice staff change and if possible a magic based dodgeroll it will not popular among magicka builds simplely because shields are superior In my Opinion.

Of course this will go through one ear and out the other and you will say i'm biased.

If they gave us a magicka dodge roll I'd use it all day and drop to only using one shield.

Block unfortunately doesn't synergize with shields, so we don't use it. When you block something with an ice staff it takes off Magicka and health. The spill damage isn't shield mitigated, and since we don't have heavy armor or a sturdy wooden shield it's expensive (and painful). It's not like a stamina tank block where so much damage is mitigated with 35/37K resists.

You really need to make a Magicka block BUILD to make it work, like a heavy armor Magicka Templar with 40K plus max magicka, malubeth, and a sword and board on the back bar to switch and stamina block while Magicka regenerates. Slot heals and purges, and then rarely die.

I guess my point is. You can't stick an ice staff on a light armor streaking mag sorc and call it a 'block tank'.

Agreed. But its there now I guess it can be used in an emergency if shields are down.

If it's an emergency, it's better to stamina block with a higher damage staff.

You see, Every GOOD player in this game balances their build to have enough stamina, Magicka, and health to survive.

Bad players Min/Max damage to the moon, then come crying on the forums when their stam nightblade with 17K health and all divines dies to two or three curses. Or mag sorcs with 9K stamina and 600 regen die to a couple of CC's, then wonder why. Or mag sorcs with no impen get one shotted with shields down and think that snipe is OP..

Put some stamina regen on your sorc, get some stam regen monster pieces (blood spawn) and glyphs, and use food and enchants that add stamina. Put some impen and health on your stamina nightblade, so that every curse isn't an auto-crit with 80% extra damage and instant death.

Everyone needs to stop the blubbering. Fix your damn build. Find the weaknesses and take care of business. It's not worth 10% more damage if you die super easy. Glass cannon builds are not MEANT to be viable.

Are you replying to my other post? Or this one because your response here to this post makes no sense.

And yes glass cannon builds are meant to be viable, but only good at one thing dealing high dmg that's it. So people that complain about NBs makes me laugh I have no problem fighting them on my Stam DK but the NB class is revolved around glass cannon to an extent, but asking for survivability is wrong unless you sacrifice the dmg to gain it.

I was trying to say that Magicka sorcs were better using a stamina block in an emergency than an ice one.

People need to tailor their builds to be more survivable, that's all. More health. More stamina. Impen. Not just weapon damage and spell damage. A sorc should be able to stam block in an emergency. That was my point. It would eliminate half of the PVP forum crying.