Warden class p2w?

Peekachu99 · April 2017

No one has even seen the patch notes or play tested a Warden outside of the dev team. This whole thread is rubbish.

I don't think most of you (complainers) have a clue what P2W actually is or means. Go pay NW (or any Perfect World game) where you can buy top tier gear and character enchants with currency bought from real cash and then get back to me about how P2W ESO is. Adding a new class via expansions has been a staple of like every MMORPG ever made--this isn't new.

I find the disconnect as jarring as all the hyperbole over crown crates.

idk · April 2017

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

jlboozer · April 2017

It won't be stronger than others.....so no.

DMuehlhausen · April 2017

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Yea, it's pay2win.

But pay2win is bad so just like any other game that has it players will defend, deny and justify by any means. This includes insults and philosophies on how paying to have things that help to win battles isn't paying to win. Lol

It's fine to put cosmetics, skins, motifs, mounts, etc. behind pay walls but eso has put a ton of combat behind them. One tamerial made dungeon drops non tradable so players who don't have dlc cant get it.

Other games being worse offenders doesn't justify it here. Still an enjoyable game. Just one that limits non payers in combat.

It's not pay to win. There is no other MMO that doesn't do this. Anytime WoW introduced a new class or or race it was in an expansion. SWTOR does it as well, Everquest 1 and 2 any of them do. Stop complaining.

Izaki · April 2017

So vMA weapons are P2W too right?

[Deleted User] · April 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

ADarklore · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

brimstone74 · April 2017

These threads keep popping up.

It's been an MMORPG standard for years that xpacs can include a new class.

It is not true that these classes are always OP. I give you the Monk from MoP in WoW at it's inception....lackluster. One of it's specs became OP in the following xpac in pvp...

Pay 2 Win means you're paying for character power, not a class. For instance.... we each have whatever class, and I buy golded bis gear with crowns while you grind it...that's pay 2 win.

This whole idea that the class being in the xpac is pay 2 win is absurd. Are you telling me that you are going to abstain from Morrowind? Everyone that has morrowind will have access to the warden.

By this logic all the gear that is bound and the skill points provided is also pay to win. By this logic TG, DB, Orsinium, and all DLC is pay to win. Are we going to cry about this too?

Where did this crying about "paywalls" come from? We're not ok with paying devs for actual content, but we're ok with paying artists for clown crates?

I guess I'm an old man...I don't get it, unless this is a thinly veiled attempt at begging for this content for free...in that case...the entire premise is gross and a large reason this genre is suffering. This isn't a MOBA.

Banana · April 2017

JKorr · April 2017

neutronenstern wrote: »

Isnt it per definition p2w if you can play the warden class only by buying the "expansion" when the class will be stronger than others?

So many things not right with this....

Where have you seen evidence that the warden class is going to be stronger than the current ones? Since this hasn't hit the PTS yet, no one but the devs know anything concrete.

Is any Warden you create going to be an automatically already maxed cp601 character, with all the monter helms/shoulders gold, all gold jewelry, gold maelstrom weapons, and the emperor achievement? If the answer is yes, then yes, it is pay to win. If the answer is no, then guess what? It is not.

Terror · April 2017

A company has the right to gate new character classes/races behind expansions... it's part of the appeal of buying an expansion in every MMO and always has been standard. Not P2W in any way.

Elsonso · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year.

It is possible that, with the release of each new Chapter, the previous chapter is rolled up into the base game. I don't think they will do that. I think they will do that no more frequently than every other Chapter. That means 2019 before Morrowind becomes part of the base game, at the soonest. If I am right.

It all sort of depends on where they are with revenue projections, when the time comes to be making these sorts of decisions.

idk · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

@ADarklore

Have they added a class before? No

Have the added an expansion like this before? No

Have they ever changed how they add content? Yes, multiple times.

In other words no one can say what will or will not happen long term about any of this. Zos seems to do what they want when it feels like it.

ADarklore · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

@ADarklore

Have they added a class before? No

Have the added an expansion like this before? No

Have they ever changed how they add content? Yes, multiple times.

In other words no one can say what will or will not happen long term about any of this. Zos seems to do what they want when it feels like it.

Some things make sense and others do not. You have to add a bit of logic and financial argument to the situation and them adding Morrowind to the base game defies both logic and financial arguments.

idk · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

ADarklore wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is my guess that the expansion will eventually become part of the game. I have seen games make expansions available to all after 6 months to a year. This would be no different. Even if the class is a little to powerful at first it will be brought in line with the others. P2W would only be the case if they kept it behind the pay wall and kept it more powerful than the other classes.

Have they added DLCs as part of the game after a period of time? NO. Besides that, most other game's expansions were not also separately boxed and distributed as a completely different 'edition/chapter'... and many of those will still be floating around in retail locations for much longer than six months to a year, and it would cost ZOS/ZENI a lot of money to pull those back and destroy them just to offer it for free. Further, if they did that with Morrowind, then future chapters people would not buy and would just wait for them to add it for free... so no, I don't think Morrowind will ever be added to the base game for free.

@ADarklore

Have they added a class before? No

Have the added an expansion like this before? No

Have they ever changed how they add content? Yes, multiple times.

In other words no one can say what will or will not happen long term about any of this. Zos seems to do what they want when it feels like it.

Some things make sense and others do not. You have to add a bit of logic and financial argument to the situation and them adding Morrowind to the base game defies both logic and financial arguments.

Yet other major games with similar business models have done it.

Further, how can one speak of logic and how Zos handles the business side of ESO when it's constantly in flux. Defies logic. 3 years. 3 business models.

Eleusian · April 2017

Pay 2 play. No gaurentee of winning , how does one even define winning on ESO ? Like it's a 25min vet maelstrom class ?

Egonieser · April 2017

Miss_Morphine wrote: »

No. You're not buying in game items or a maxed toon or the skill to play it. You're supporting the game by paying for content you will have to level and master.

That can be said about any piece of purchasable content.

shadow071179 · April 2017

No.
Your just buying a expantion to a game with new content just like bij every other MMO.

Kodrac · April 2017

Yay more bait.

STEVIL · April 2017

Hilarious!

AFrostWolf · April 2017

No.

[Edit to remove insulting content]

t3hdubzy · April 2017

I think we need a new class.

Integral1900 · April 2017

How can it be pay to win when it's so weak?

On eso live it was only the cheats keeping the dam thing alive, against basic trash!

Egonieser · April 2017

People are missing the point here.
It's not so much about the cost or the fact you have to pay for it at all.

It's about ZoS not being upfront and honest about it in advance. Not very long ago, Firor himself said that the game will have quarterly DLC's and expansions as a content model will not be considered. "Content will be delivered in bite-size chunks" - His own words. Also promises that a subscription will cover any future content (free or paid) - again - not a single mention about expansions or extra costs.
And I'm sure they didn't just build Morrowind in last 2 months - it was in development since 2013 as it was showcased in QuakeCon along with other content we are only receiving now and are yet to receive. So it's not like they didn't know about the future - they bloody well did, but decided to remain silent about it. And now everyone is wondering why people are angry about it.
People have the right to be angry as ZoS was deliberately misleading. Maybe not in a legal sense as I'm sure there is a loophole somewhere in the ToS/Eula about it, but in terms of openly discussing about future plans, payment model, or just giving a friendly heads-up about possible change in content structure and payment models related to it.
We were only given 2 very definitive choices for paid content - either subscription or one time crown store purchase. And now we don't get either. It takes a fool not to realize this, and why people are upset about it, especially people like me who have supported this game since it's very first closed beta tests and now are given a big middle finger for our support, as the money some of us paid are a lot more than we ever got in return.

Do I have a problem with paid expansions? No, i do not. I have played games since before a lot of people here were born and am used to paying for anything extra as even just 10 years ago almost every MMO had mandatory subscription models + paid DLC's and Expansions on top, but that was never the issue. My issue is their dishonesty and misleading behaviour.
One day we promise them this, but hold on - no we changed our minds, we will drop the ball and do something entirely different, because we can.
It's a matter of the principle here more than the associated costs.

Sn1per0 · April 2017

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

again sigh.....

No it is not pay to win because you are not gaining any significant advantage for being a warden.
Whether it is OP when it comes out does not change a thing as it will be toned down to be in line with the other classes.

Woopy · April 2017

Lokryn wrote: »

It won't be intentionally stronger than the other classes so no.

It actually IS intentionally stronger than other classes currently as a marketing strategy. It will be nerfed within a month or two of release though. But in my opinion, it still is not P2W.

brimstone74 · April 2017

Woopy wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

It won't be intentionally stronger than the other classes so no.

It actually IS intentionally stronger than other classes currently as a marketing strategy. It will be nerfed within a month or two of release though. But in my opinion, it still is not P2W.

No one is even quantifying what OP is for this? What context?

VMA MAG?
VMA STAM?
Dung Tank?
Dung Heal?
Dung Stam DPS?
Dung Mag DPS?
Trial Heal?
Trial Tank?
Trial Mag DPS?
Trial Stam DPS?
BG/Arena PVP MAG?
BG/Arena PVP STAM?
Cyro PVP Group-Zerg MAG?
Cyro PVP Group-Zerg STAM?
Cyro PVP solo Small Group MAG?
Cyro PVP solo Small Group STAM?

Let's see those numbers in all of the above...

DaveMoeDee · April 2017

"Pay to win" has become such a stupid term.

Bad for game: a design where people's power correlates to how much they spend such that if I throw 5k at the game, I will have a more powerful character than someone who only spends 1k.

Fine design: a design where players need to spend a set amount and then the playing field is level, even if they spend past that. There is no problem with the game reaching the point where you are at a disadvantage if you don't buy the expansions. That essentially just means you are required to spend that $40/yr to be competitive. That is completely reasonable.

If the latter is "p2w", then p2w can be fine. But the term is now becoming stupid in that case because people aren't winning by being the person who spends the most and there is no arms race pushing people to spend more and more. What we actually have is people not liking certain decisions and trying to find how they can spin it as p2w.

This fear about wardens is a bit silly anyway. Remember when people said Imperials were p2w? Who says that now?

masterbroodub17_ESO · April 2017

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

This fear about wardens is a bit silly anyway. Remember when people said Imperials were p2w? Who says that now?

It's the same type of tard saying it too.

Sounds more like an attempt to get something for free by making it seem "unfair" if they don't get it.

Stop playing with mommy and daddy's credit card.

Rev Rielle · April 2017

Peekachu99 wrote: »

No one has even seen the patch notes or play tested a Warden outside of the dev team. This whole thread is rubbish.

I don't think most of you (complainers) have a clue what P2W actually is or means. Go pay NW (or any Perfect World game) where you can buy top tier gear and character enchants with currency bought from real cash and then get back to me about how P2W ESO is. Adding a new class via expansions has been a staple of like every MMORPG ever made--this isn't new.

I find the disconnect as jarring as all the hyperbole over crown crates.

*nods*.

It's another example of a term being widely misused. Forums over the years have evolved into notorious places for users using incorrect terms or terms in the wrong way. The worst thing is new players will hear/read it and see its usage and think that is the correct way (not knowing any different), and so the falsehood is perpetuated.

There is not one single thing in ESO that is even remotely 'p2w'. I wish players would take the time to understand what the acronym actually means, but... wishful thinking.