Don't Complain about Crown Store, this is a Free to Play game after all.

Tan9oSuccka

Banana wrote: »

No ones telling me I cant complain.

Surely, there's logic behind your complaint?

Zenimax doesn't run a charity for neckbeards. They have to make money.

Good for them. Keep adding Barbie stuff to the Crown Store.

jircris11

reguvin wrote: »

People are forgetting that ESO is a Free to Play Game,

Would you rather spend Real money to play ESO?

The Crown Store does not include any items that are Pay to Win.

I support them 100% by adding Motifs, Mounts, Crafted pieces onto the Store.

Buy to play (b2p) not free to play.

MEBengalsFan2001

Danikat wrote: »

I came to say the exact same thing - buy to play is not the same as free to play.

But also it's not like there are only 2 options - games don't have to have a mandatory subscription and then make everything free or have a cash shop and use every tactic ever invented to get players to spend money there.

There's probably as many different business models as there are games. Even cash shops aren't all the same. Some are purely cosmetics with no impact on gameplay, some (like ESO) are a mix of cosmetics and convenience items, or they can be pure pay-to-win (selling better equipment than you can get in-game for example), or screwing players over with things like mounts and costumes which 'expire' after a certain time or a mix of things.

So I think it makes complete sense to let ZOS know which ideas we're happy with and which we don't like so they can try to strike the right balance between making a profit and keeping their customers happy. (And in the long run getting that right will make more of a profit.)

Perfect World Entertainment MMOs like Neverwinter are all F2P but are all Pay to Advance games. In a true F2P game you don't have to spend anything to advance to the very end of the game. If you grind out the game you can get all the items you want; however, it will take longer to acquire them. If you pay money you can advance your character and get items resulting in going from nothing to having the best stuff almost over night.

DCUO at the start of 2011 was sub only, moved to F2P later in 2011 and as the game added DLC it became a Free to Try game due to limited content for free. Now the game is a sub game that also has the pay to advance model attached to it and still uses the Free to Try model. I quit because of this model.

WoW and FF XIV are both sub games only. They both are successful.

I like ESO model it is pay to play, has cosmetic items in the shop and some utility items that you can acquire in game. Subbing provides a nice member perk if you craft anything or simply want to free up some inventory space. I support this game by buying things in the market. Though right now I'm short on cash or else I would buy another set of crates.

To me ESO is a good game with a good model. Its not perfect but than nothing is. I want crafting to be a thing again as I liked to craft my gear. I noticed that now crafting gear has not real impact to my character so I am forgoing crafting and just focusing on using the gear given to me for now.

I like action games that keep me engaged with combat. It is why I played DCUO and NW. It is why I like ESO; you have blocking, interrupting, and dodging which adds the action element to combat.

Gorgoneus

Right - F2P game I bought for 60 buks and got "compensation" what make me laugh after it chage the payment method to buy for everything. With subscription still presist (with unique bonuses) but price is doubled.

magnusthorek

Most of us do not complain about Crown Store itself because it's, I dare say, the second source of incomes for the company.

What most of us complain about is the low number of content being delivered (relatively speaking) compared to the number of Crown Store items' being developed month after month.

Of course, a good part of Crown Store purchases do not result in profit for ZOS as they are bought with free Crowns freely earned by ESO + Members, but there's a good portion of legitimate buyers, be it non-subscribers or former subscribers that woke up.

Most of us complain that, estimatively speaking, considering the increasing number of ESO + subscriptions and the, again, relatively speaking, the low content delivering, ZOS might be making a hell of cash and we do not see part of this as investment in the game, be it in infrastructure or, I know this will sound harsh, more competent developers to fix the game

We also complain about Rigged Numbers Generator, the worst I've seen. Anything dependable on RNG in this game just sucks, be it loot drops or proc chances and even up to Crown Crates that could become ZOS' cash cow.

And, let's not forget Wrobel's stubbornness. ^_^

Do not generalize! Generalizing is always a mistake (pun intended)!

kevlarto_ESO

Like many have pointed out the Elder Scroll Tameriel One is buy to play with a sub option, you still have to purchase the client to play the game at least for now, the crown store is nothing to complain about there is nothing in that store I NEED to play the game there is a few thing I might WANT but nothing to make my character, bigger, better , stronger, more competitive, it is all fluff and a little utility, I have bought one item out the crown store when it first started with the crowns I get from my sub, I have never cracked my wallet open outside that, and will not spend at money outside my sub until I see zos make some changes to the game, and crack down on cheaters and exploiters.

Elsonso

Abeille wrote: »

No, look.

You bought the game in order to play it.

That means you had to buy it to play it.

Buy to Play. That's what it means.

Free to Play means you can create an account and play the game without paying anything. They are different business plans, have different target audiences and the players have different expectations for them. The moment when you made your purchase, if it is in the past or in the present, doesn't erase the fact that you had to make a purchase in order to play the game.

You are mistaking Buy to Play for Pay to Play. Pay to Play is a game that requires you to, as you said, "keep paying in order to play". It is yet another business plan, different from both Buy to Play and Free to Play.

People tend to make this all a lot more complicated than it really is.

Seriously, there are really two business models for MMO games. Pay to Play, which requires a subscription or purchase of game time, and Free to Play, which does not, and depends on optional purchases that unlock in-game features. Everything else is a variation. MMO games depend on sustained revenue over time, and the business model has to reflect that. Burst revenue from game sales are nice, but very hard to sustain over time.

This is a Free To Play game. It needs to be treated as a F2P game, and it is. They need to add motifs, mounts, costumes, cosmetics, and conveniences to the Crown Store because that is what is required of the Free to Play business model in order to get the sustained revenue over time. The Crown Store does not include Pay to Win items commonly found in other MMO games, which is a liability and cuts into their revenue potential. On this last thing, I thank them, but I don't expect them to hold to it.

We can make subtle nuances about needing to buy the game. At the end of the day, ESO is still a Free To Play game, and has been since March 2015. Our clinging to that "B" does does not change the fact that the OP is looking at this from the proper perspective.

Cadbury

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

No, look.

You bought the game in order to play it.

That means you had to buy it to play it.

Buy to Play. That's what it means.

Free to Play means you can create an account and play the game without paying anything. They are different business plans, have different target audiences and the players have different expectations for them. The moment when you made your purchase, if it is in the past or in the present, doesn't erase the fact that you had to make a purchase in order to play the game.

You are mistaking Buy to Play for Pay to Play. Pay to Play is a game that requires you to, as you said, "keep paying in order to play". It is yet another business plan, different from both Buy to Play and Free to Play.

People tend to make this all a lot more complicated than it really is.

Seriously, there are really two business models for MMO games. Pay to Play, which requires a subscription or purchase of game time, and Free to Play, which does not, and depends on optional purchases that unlock in-game features. Everything else is a variation. MMO games depend on sustained revenue over time, and the business model has to reflect that. Burst revenue from game sales are nice, but very hard to sustain over time.

This is a Free To Play game. It needs to be treated as a F2P game, and it is. They need to add motifs, mounts, costumes, cosmetics, and conveniences to the Crown Store because that is what is required of the Free to Play business model in order to get the sustained revenue over time. The Crown Store does not include Pay to Win items commonly found in other MMO games, which is a liability and cuts into their revenue potential. On this last thing, I thank them, but I don't expect them to hold to it.

We can make subtle nuances about needing to buy the game. At the end of the day, ESO is still a Free To Play game, and has been since March 2015. Our clinging to that "B" does does not change the fact that the OP is looking at this from the proper perspective.

Semantics

hmsdragonfly

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

No, look.

You bought the game in order to play it.

That means you had to buy it to play it.

Buy to Play. That's what it means.

Free to Play means you can create an account and play the game without paying anything. They are different business plans, have different target audiences and the players have different expectations for them. The moment when you made your purchase, if it is in the past or in the present, doesn't erase the fact that you had to make a purchase in order to play the game.

You are mistaking Buy to Play for Pay to Play. Pay to Play is a game that requires you to, as you said, "keep paying in order to play". It is yet another business plan, different from both Buy to Play and Free to Play.

People tend to make this all a lot more complicated than it really is.

Seriously, there are really two business models for MMO games. Pay to Play, which requires a subscription or purchase of game time, and Free to Play, which does not, and depends on optional purchases that unlock in-game features. Everything else is a variation. MMO games depend on sustained revenue over time, and the business model has to reflect that. Burst revenue from game sales are nice, but very hard to sustain over time.

This is a Free To Play game. It needs to be treated as a F2P game, and it is. They need to add motifs, mounts, costumes, cosmetics, and conveniences to the Crown Store because that is what is required of the Free to Play business model in order to get the sustained revenue over time. The Crown Store does not include Pay to Win items commonly found in other MMO games, which is a liability and cuts into their revenue potential. On this last thing, I thank them, but I don't expect them to hold to it.

We can make subtle nuances about needing to buy the game. At the end of the day, ESO is still a Free To Play game, and has been since March 2015. Our clinging to that "B" does does not change the fact that the OP is looking at this from the proper perspective.

Witcher 3 Best Free to play game! Battlefield, Total War, Rocket League, GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect etc, all awesome free-to-play games!

No, this isn't F2P game. If this is a F2P game, so are Battlefield, Total War, Rocket League, GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Witcher etc.

Sigtric

lordrichter wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

No, look.

You bought the game in order to play it.

That means you had to buy it to play it.

Buy to Play. That's what it means.

Free to Play means you can create an account and play the game without paying anything. They are different business plans, have different target audiences and the players have different expectations for them. The moment when you made your purchase, if it is in the past or in the present, doesn't erase the fact that you had to make a purchase in order to play the game.

You are mistaking Buy to Play for Pay to Play. Pay to Play is a game that requires you to, as you said, "keep paying in order to play". It is yet another business plan, different from both Buy to Play and Free to Play.

People tend to make this all a lot more complicated than it really is.

Seriously, there are really two business models for MMO games. Pay to Play, which requires a subscription or purchase of game time, and Free to Play, which does not, and depends on optional purchases that unlock in-game features. Everything else is a variation. MMO games depend on sustained revenue over time, and the business model has to reflect that. Burst revenue from game sales are nice, but very hard to sustain over time.

This is a Free To Play game. It needs to be treated as a F2P game, and it is. They need to add motifs, mounts, costumes, cosmetics, and conveniences to the Crown Store because that is what is required of the Free to Play business model in order to get the sustained revenue over time. The Crown Store does not include Pay to Win items commonly found in other MMO games, which is a liability and cuts into their revenue potential. On this last thing, I thank them, but I don't expect them to hold to it.

We can make subtle nuances about needing to buy the game. At the end of the day, ESO is still a Free To Play game, and has been since March 2015. Our clinging to that "B" does does not change the fact that the OP is looking at this from the proper perspective.

You state there are variations, and that is the crux of it. All else is twisting words to fit the way you think it is.
F2P and B2P are two different business models that share quite a few similarities. Both use a cash shop to sustain

With B2P all your base game features, that are usually considered as a requirement by players to get by unhindered in the game is included behind the mandatory paywall you have to get through. The stuff found in the cash shop is usually all cosmetic or utility + new content areas and in some games may or may not be P2W type items.

On the other hand, F2P has no entrance paywall and you are getting basic/limited features and content for free. If you want things like the ability to group, use the mail system, get hotbars, get inventory, have more than X-amount of gold at any given time, these are the types of things hidden behind a non-mandatory paywall. The stuff found in the cash shop here will include these paywalled features, and also cosmetics, utility, usually P2W items and more content.

So yeah. Variations, but they are distinct and relevant to the type of game experience you get.


In the case of ESO, all the stuff that came with the game at release for the retail price is included in that entrance paywall. The base game and core features are all there. If it were a true F2P game, it wouldn't have an entrance fee, and we'd likely either be forced to sub or buy microtransaction items for things like mail system, more than 4 characters, more than 1 guild. There could be limited caps on inventory with no option to upgrade for gold, but for crowns only, caps on horse training, only allowed to use one pledge a day, etc.

Go pick any true f2p game with no box price and look at the kind of crap you have to buy for QOL/mmo standard features, and compare it to what you get right out of the box for buying ESO for whatever you paid for it.

Slurg

I'll have to bookmark this thread so I can come back to it after the official base-game-is-going-F2P announcement is released.

hmsdragonfly

Slurg wrote: »

I'll have to bookmark this thread so I can come back to it after the official base-game-is-going-F2P announcement is released.

It will be, in a few years down the line, like every other B2P or sub-based MMO, when the game has become too old. No argument in that.
Even EVE is F2P now.

Sigtric

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I'll have to bookmark this thread so I can come back to it after the official base-game-is-going-F2P announcement is released.

It will be, in a few years down the line, like every other B2P or sub-based MMO, when the game has become too old. No argument in that.
Even EVE is F2P now.

I can't think of any game that has changed business models twice? Usually from Sub to b2p or f2p and then never again. In some instances it was b2p to f2p.

We were reminded in this thread time and time again though that this is already (essentially) a f2p game, so what's there for them to change now?

Wifeaggro13

reguvin wrote: »

People are forgetting that ESO is a Free to Play Game,

Would you rather spend Real money to play ESO?

The Crown Store does not include any items that are Pay to Win.

I support them 100% by adding Motifs, Mounts, Crafted pieces onto the Store.

I would agree with your assessment if zos actually sold content that enriched and expanded the mmo game experience. But they don't they sell Ken and barbie items . And the content they do put out equates to a single player dlc you would see out of dragon age or mass effect.

Iliaz

Emencie wrote: »

I literally never hear(read) the phrase B2P anywhere else but the ESO forums.

Everyone else calls this type of game mode F2P, even the GW2 boards call their game F2P

I wonder why so many people here are obsessed with this B2P.

That's because the core Game "Guild Wars 2" is F2P. You can download the game for free now without paying anything. You have some restriction on the Auction House and a few other things.
On the other Hand "Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns" is B2P, you pay for the Expansion, so you can download and play it. And since the core game is free, if you purchase the expansion you get the core game with it.

You have to buy ESO in order to play it, so you still think F2P is the same as B2P?

Elsonso

@hmsdragonfly, Comparing an MMO business model to a single player game is rather pointless, even if you toss a few multiplayer games in there for good measure.

Sigtric wrote: »

You state there are variations, and that is the crux of it. All else is twisting words to fit the way you think it is.
F2P and B2P are two different business models that share quite a few similarities. Both use a cash shop to sustain

With B2P all your base game features, that are usually considered as a requirement by players to get by unhindered in the game is included behind the mandatory paywall you have to get through. The stuff found in the cash shop is usually all cosmetic or utility + new content areas and in some games may or may not be P2W type items.

On the other hand, F2P has no entrance paywall and you are getting basic/limited features and content for free. If you want things like the ability to group, use the mail system, get hotbars, get inventory, have more than X-amount of gold at any given time, these are the types of things hidden behind a non-mandatory paywall. The stuff found in the cash shop here will include these paywalled features, and also cosmetics, utility, usually P2W items and more content.

So yeah. Variations, but they are distinct and relevant to the type of game experience you get.


In the case of ESO, all the stuff that came with the game at release for the retail price is included in that entrance paywall. The base game and core features are all there. If it were a true F2P game, it wouldn't have an entrance fee, and we'd likely either be forced to sub or buy microtransaction items for things like mail system, more than 4 characters, more than 1 guild. There could be limited caps on inventory with no option to upgrade for gold, but for crowns only, caps on horse training, only allowed to use one pledge a day, etc.

Go pick any true f2p game with no box price and look at the kind of crap you have to buy for QOL/mmo standard features, and compare it to what you get right out of the box for buying ESO for whatever you paid for it.

Don't get hung up on this whole "true F2P game" stuff, based on what other games are doing. A lot of the things that are done in other F2P games will probably never come to ESO, so it is really pointless to sit down and say that ESO would be this or that. More importantly, it is pointless to use other games as some sort of a F2P checklist.

For one thing, when they drop the need to buy the game, I doubt they will change the game. The base game will be the same, with the same features and capabilities, that we have today. Nothing they have done, or said, leads me to think they would carve up the game like described above in order to insert paywalls around existing base game features.

However, like they are doing with Homestead, there will continue to be places they can exploit for Crowns and ESO Plus. While we do not know the full extent of their plans for the Crown Store and ESO Plus, we can be sure that they will use upcoming changes to drive Crown purchases and ESO Plus subscriptions.

This is the core message from the OP. Bethesda is treating the game like a Free To Play game, and they need to be treating the game like a Free To Play game. We should be expecting them to be treating the game like a F2P game. This is because they have Free To Play as their core business model, and this barrier of having to buy the game is a meaningless distraction. It is a distraction that I feel Bethesda will get rid of as soon as it becomes a liability they cannot afford.

Again, don't get hung up with all the things that other F2P games are doing. We won't see all those things here.

tplink3r1

lordrichter wrote: »

B2P is F2P with an entry fee.

P2P is a F2P with a montly fee.

hmsdragonfly

lordrichter wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly, Comparing an MMO business model to a single player game is rather pointless, even if you toss a few multiplayer games in there for good measure.

Battlefield, Rocket League, Titanfall, Call of Duty, Total War, GTA Online etc aren't single player games.

Arguing a B2P game is a F2P game is the very definition of pointless.

http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/5-awesome-buy-to-play-mmos-1000009594

Mitoice

Im all in favor of them.making money... Crown crates? Crown houses.... I dont care...

The problem with B2P is when it becomes just a money grab....

How many months have passed since they added a new zone??? More than 8 months...
PVP hasnt seen new content in YEARS....

Thats my complain it seems that every patch from now on will be cosmetic with no new content besides cosmetic like non functional housing.... motifs etc... just to get money... Its harder to create a new zone for 3000 crowns when you can create a house which is easier to develop for 10000 crowns

Agobi

I would take a sub over the crown store any day.

So I reserve my right to *** over the moneysucking "store"

CromulentForumID

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly, Comparing an MMO business model to a single player game is rather pointless, even if you toss a few multiplayer games in there for good measure.

Battlefield, Rocket League, Titanfall, Call of Duty, Total War, GTA Online etc aren't single player games.

Arguing a B2P game is a F2P game is the very definition of pointless.

http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/5-awesome-buy-to-play-mmos-1000009594

Check the bolded part in the quote above. Then check what you wrote. Now look at this:
"Witcher 3 Best Free to play game! Battlefield, Total War, Rocket League, GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect etc, all awesome free-to-play games!"

You didn't say "Mass Effect 3" or "GTA Online."

Is arguing B2P versus F2P more pointless than correcting something that was completely accurate?

hmsdragonfly

CromulentForumID wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly, Comparing an MMO business model to a single player game is rather pointless, even if you toss a few multiplayer games in there for good measure.

Battlefield, Rocket League, Titanfall, Call of Duty, Total War, GTA Online etc aren't single player games.

Arguing a B2P game is a F2P game is the very definition of pointless.

http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/5-awesome-buy-to-play-mmos-1000009594

Check the bolded part in the quote above. Then check what you wrote. Now look at this:
"Witcher 3 Best Free to play game! Battlefield, Total War, Rocket League, GTA, Skyrim, Mass Effect etc, all awesome free-to-play games!"

You didn't say "Mass Effect 3" or "GTA Online."

Is arguing B2P versus F2P more pointless than correcting something that was completely accurate?

There's nothing wrong with saying "Mass Effect" and "GTA". My point still stands.

I don't even need to argue. I will just put this here: http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/5-awesome-buy-to-play-mmos-1000009594

It's not my fault when some special snowflakes want to call a banana "orange".

jircris11

reguvin wrote: »

People are forgetting that ESO is a Free to Play Game,

Would you rather spend Real money to play ESO?

The Crown Store does not include any items that are Pay to Win.

I support them 100% by adding Motifs, Mounts, Crafted pieces onto the Store.

It is buy to play(no clue where people keep getting f2p) ,but yes a game we could compare this too is BDO. their costumes cost 30-40 bucks. furniture (THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET VIA CASH SHOP is 10-20 bucks a set (bed/dresser and 2 random items) and not to mention the dyes are a one time use for 4-6 bucks for a RANDOM loot box of them. compared to dbo/swtor and such eso's crown store is tame.BUT i know someone will down vote me because its all the forums is good for, arguing and complaining about stuff we have no power over..

Spottswoode

Cadbury wrote: »

Semantics

3/4 of this thread is semantics.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

B2P is F2P with an entry fee.

P2P is a F2P with a montly fee.

Actually it's not. P2P never includes a cash shop by default and doesn't make the majority of it's money with store purchases.

unjulationb16_ESO

personally, I wouldn't be here if it was not b2p

I understand that a sub might change the dynamics of the game and maybe for the better, I don't know?

but I'm so glad that it is b2p because its the only way I could afford to play this game

I log in on almost a daily basis and have a top time enjoying the game in all the various aspects

as for the crown store, it is what it is, I don't feel the need to buy 'owt if I don't want to, of course there are stuff that I'd like to get but hey I don't have the RL coin to do so and I accept that and don't have a hissy fit about it

but hey that's just me

corrosivechains

yes, let's just trivialize the entirety of the discussion by boiling it down to "don't complain about the cash shop". Which no one is doing.

What they are complaining about is the pricing.

Mojmir

Games going f2p very soon,just look at those crates and prices in the crown store. #esoisonitslastleg #devsgotthisonautopilot #failedonyourfirstgamezos #ruinedanIP

mb10

Who remembers this thread??

"Free to play game" Good times

Elsonso

tplink3r1 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

B2P is F2P with an entry fee.

P2P is a F2P with a montly fee.

Sure, you can say that, but I don't think it really applies here.

In the case of ESO B2P, you can play the game for free... and by that, I mean log into the game and play endlessly, for hours, every day, logging out only when the servers shut down for maintenance, for nothing more than buying the initial game. That is why B2P is F2P with an entry fee. All the tropes that people dig up about other F2P games, and what they do, are nice, but it boils down to apples and oranges. If ESO decides to follow them, they can do everything that all those F2P games do, including chest drops requiring keys, pay for this, pay for that, shove the cash store in your face, make announcements to the world when you open a Crown Crate, and whatever else F2P games do that people don't like, and they can still make people buy the game on top of that.

Until 1/31, I felt that ESO was a F2P game simply because ZOS and Bethesda seemed to be treating it like one. The part about buying the game was irrelevant, like a vestigial limb that no one bothered to amputate.

I am thrilled about Morrowind, for this very reason. I don't want this game to go any further down the F2P trail than it already is. I want them making boatloads of cash on selling Morrowind Edition and I want them to stop thinking with their Crown Store brain. I might not get what I want, but I certainly like what I am seeing, so far. Hopefully, they are, too.

Ajaxduo

Just in case you haven't been told enough already, it's Buy2Play bruh.