ZOS, please explain reason for DK wings nerf

lucky_Sage

I really would like them to give use a reliable heal and make DoTs viable thing in open would and magicka sustain . I don't need wings to kill a sorc cause most cant play them anyways.

edited wanted to add now to need vampire as crutch I hate being one but cant survive in open world with out it. unless you zerg mindlessly which if yor doing that your build doesn't matter anyhow

Rohaus

I highly doubt you will get an explanation... any kind of post made by the devs about the nerf to wings will get lambasted!

Essentially, they are damned if they say something and damned if they don't say something.

Minalan

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Somehow the long anticipated "buff Dk" update turned out to be a "buff sorc" update. It almost makes the pre-nerf DK threads that came out before PTS seem silly and ridiculous. And by almost I mean completely and absolutely.

Never mind that magicka nightblades do better with destro staves AND EoTS. They got like one cheap skill cost increased to around force pulse, and it's the end of the world.

Anyone using pets in open world PVP is still going to be sorely disappointed.

@Minalan Wait, what? How do mNBs do better with destro staves and EOTS?

1. Hitting out of stealth, that 8% staff damage bonus gets a lot bigger.

2. They can spam gap close, and NB make much more effective bomb builds than a sorc does.

Are we playing the same game?

Anti_Virus

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you have difficulty countering or at the very least stalling a sorc as a magicka DK, you need to learn to play the class. That's on live. With the incoming changes, the net loss for dks in this match up is force pulse going through wings. The net gain is a much more potent heal than you have on live, 5+% raw damage on your spammable (and FYI I've had power lash hit sorcs for 7-9k in duels consistently), and a powerful ulti that will be the go to in this match up. And in the end, Force pulse going thru wings is probably a buff as that skill will never be what kills the DK and the change will result in more up time on wings.

Listening to some of these usual DK naysayers you'd think the class is pretty much unplayable right now and that's far from the case. They are too biased to take seriously. The changes incoming are strong and I look forward to playing my DK. But if any of you have a sorc, I'll gladly duel you on my DK next patch and we can see how helpless the poor, poor magicka DK is...

I can assure you, your fustration lvls will be at an all time high when a mSorcs smacks you around and there is nothing you can do about it. Almost all of your skills won't reflect, oh and good luck with daedric mines + EOtS combo.

Minalan

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Hopefully they give bow one attack that can not be reflected either.

On top of that i think reflect should have it´s projectile cap removed.
The duration should be set to 3s with cost reduced by 25%
One morph should reflect with increased dmg.
The other morph should deflect/absorb and remove/prevent snares and roots for it´s duration.

With the duration decreased and even more things going through it what are we supposed to do besides press this every 3 seconds and heal in between from all the stuff thats going through it? Imagine if mines only worked on Argonians and Khajits. It would be more useless than it stands to be now.

Wings need a working counter accessible for ranged playstyles of magica and stamina alike.

There should be no ability that hardcounters a complete playstyle.

Mines requires counter for mele magicka dk, where it is? Where counter for shield stacking?
Force shock(it's counted as 3 separate projectiles, did you know?) + LA weave = wings already down

I´ve never seen that confirmed ever.

Always takes me two light attacks and two shocks to take down wings - which is a very stupid thing to do in the first place.

I´m 100% against stacking hardened ward and harness magica and have been advocating to get it removed for over a year now.

Mines get hardcountered by mistform. Also my proposed changes for wings would give DKs an option to choose a softcounter for the mine root aswell.

Force Shock counted as 3 projectiles originally on 1.6 PTS but was changed before the update went live.

And we did weave Crushing Shock against magicka DKs with 2+ Sorcs. For most DKs, if they just spam wings they eventually die, if they don't, they die faster.

With the new patch 2 sorcs will drop 1 mDK so fast, it will be ridiculous. That unblocakble and undogable curse which can be casted several times on you from different Sorcs. That only @wrobel can design.

Unless said DK has one of those ice staff things and... you know blocks? It sucks, ZOS is practically nailing one to your hand this patch to survive in PVP.

Besides though, who said you had the god given right to 1v2 a pair of sorcs and survive? I can't do that to a pair of competent nightblades or MDK's for that matter. People are spoiled.

Derra

I simply don´t agree with the way of arguing shown by some people here.
MagicaDK is in a bad spot and this patch won´t fix most of the issues. The changes to gdb are a joke if we´re being nice.

However that´s no reason to restore one of the most grossly overpowered skills the game had to it´s former glory.

Buff whats underpowered not what´s already good (wings would be good if it wasn´t bugged to the point of being unusable).
Make the skill actually work in the first place.

Sugaroverdose

Derra wrote: »

I simply don´t agree with the way of arguing shown by some people here.
MagicaDK is in a bad spot and this patch won´t fix most of the issues. The changes to gdb are a joke if we´re being nice.

However that´s no reason to restore one of the most grossly overpowered skills the game had to it´s former glory.

Buff whats underpowered not what´s already good (wings would be good if it wasn´t bugged to the point of being unusable).
Make the skill actually work in the first place.

This topic is about "why the hell it was nerfed, while it's bugged as sh*t and don't reflect half of thing already", but not about buff

Anti_Virus

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Hopefully they give bow one attack that can not be reflected either.

On top of that i think reflect should have it´s projectile cap removed.
The duration should be set to 3s with cost reduced by 25%
One morph should reflect with increased dmg.
The other morph should deflect/absorb and remove/prevent snares and roots for it´s duration.

With the duration decreased and even more things going through it what are we supposed to do besides press this every 3 seconds and heal in between from all the stuff thats going through it? Imagine if mines only worked on Argonians and Khajits. It would be more useless than it stands to be now.

Wings need a working counter accessible for ranged playstyles of magica and stamina alike.

There should be no ability that hardcounters a complete playstyle.

Some guy standing in the back of a zerg shooting a bow isn't a playstyle I think we need to defend at the sake of a class. High reward should come with high risk. If we are talking 1v1 wings are not kept up 100% of the time, and poison injection in that scenario already works against wings because it's 100% invisible through animation canceling. Encase and mines is a hard counter to a melee class for the majority of the fight, but that is balanced out by things like wings.

DK's and Templars are alike, they are melee brawlers with no mobility, no escape, no ability to choose their fight. They rely on skills that lower the the number of surrounding people that are fighting them through abilities like blazing shield and wings. That is part of what makes them viable open world.

Sorry. I simply can´t agree with you.

I also did not say snipe should be unreflectable. I just said one bow skill should be. I would not have made forcepulse unreflectable but instead destructive touch/reach.

And for a 1v1 situation saying wings are not kept up 100% of the time is the same like a sorc saying shields are not kept up 100% of the time.
That´s a true statement in itself - but in both cases it fails to mention that the ability is only inactive when it´s absolutely not relevant to be used.

Comparing wings and mines also hardly works. Mines work as a softcounter for melee. You can still do your work if you´re willing to take the dmg (or you can just mistlol them away).
Wings can in comparison used reactively on projectiles already fired at you and for the period after that hardcounter any decently hitting skill available to a sorc.

The statement of DKs being melee brawlers is the main reason why wings got the nerfbat multiple times btw (imo). They were able to force every opponent into melee where they were the strongest class back then.
The changes i´ve proposed would also greatly help a DK in my opinion and make wings a really good skill again.

Sorry but you cannot belittle Mines like that, Daedric mines is integral to countering melee builds,

They deal High dmg AND root you, you can kite around 5 of them, shield stack for free crit immunity and if things really go hairy droo your now buffed Atro ON top of mine camping AND shield stack.

Compare that to 4 maximum reflected projects, which could easily be countered by Light attacking, timing your dmg, or using non reflectable skills ( so many of these)

CyrusArya

@Carbonised

1.) Regarding Whip: 5% more damage is huge when its a skill that is spammable, when that buff stacks with cps and dunmer passives and is amplified by sets like spell weave and sun, and when power lash has a tool tip in the range of ultimates. What does banner have to do with PvP? DK damage is seeing nothing but buffs in PvP and overall buffs in PvE too.

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

My comments are coming from a place of playing one and seeing how ridiculously strong it is in duels. I'm just sick of magicka DKs acting like the class is unplayable when I know that's simply not true from experience and from playing with actually good ones. The class is one of the best 1v1, and it is one of the best with group support. 1vX its not the best, but if it was made significantly better in that regard it would be unstoppable in the other types of PvP. Its seeing nothing but buffs this patch, but as I've said before some people will never be satisfied because their frame of reference is a time when Magicka DK was the most OP class to ever exist.

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

Hopefully they give bow one attack that can not be reflected either.

On top of that i think reflect should have it´s projectile cap removed.
The duration should be set to 3s with cost reduced by 25%
One morph should reflect with increased dmg.
The other morph should deflect/absorb and remove/prevent snares and roots for it´s duration.

3s is too short.

If the current functionality of wings is to remain and not be fixed (status effects going through the reflect, missing reflects, etc) then 4s with "unlimited" is totally fine.

Force shock being unreflectable is completely crap.

Derra

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Hopefully they give bow one attack that can not be reflected either.

On top of that i think reflect should have it´s projectile cap removed.
The duration should be set to 3s with cost reduced by 25%
One morph should reflect with increased dmg.
The other morph should deflect/absorb and remove/prevent snares and roots for it´s duration.

With the duration decreased and even more things going through it what are we supposed to do besides press this every 3 seconds and heal in between from all the stuff thats going through it? Imagine if mines only worked on Argonians and Khajits. It would be more useless than it stands to be now.

Wings need a working counter accessible for ranged playstyles of magica and stamina alike.

There should be no ability that hardcounters a complete playstyle.

Some guy standing in the back of a zerg shooting a bow isn't a playstyle I think we need to defend at the sake of a class. High reward should come with high risk. If we are talking 1v1 wings are not kept up 100% of the time, and poison injection in that scenario already works against wings because it's 100% invisible through animation canceling. Encase and mines is a hard counter to a melee class for the majority of the fight, but that is balanced out by things like wings.

DK's and Templars are alike, they are melee brawlers with no mobility, no escape, no ability to choose their fight. They rely on skills that lower the the number of surrounding people that are fighting them through abilities like blazing shield and wings. That is part of what makes them viable open world.

Sorry. I simply can´t agree with you.

I also did not say snipe should be unreflectable. I just said one bow skill should be. I would not have made forcepulse unreflectable but instead destructive touch/reach.

And for a 1v1 situation saying wings are not kept up 100% of the time is the same like a sorc saying shields are not kept up 100% of the time.
That´s a true statement in itself - but in both cases it fails to mention that the ability is only inactive when it´s absolutely not relevant to be used.

Comparing wings and mines also hardly works. Mines work as a softcounter for melee. You can still do your work if you´re willing to take the dmg (or you can just mistlol them away).
Wings can in comparison used reactively on projectiles already fired at you and for the period after that hardcounter any decently hitting skill available to a sorc.

The statement of DKs being melee brawlers is the main reason why wings got the nerfbat multiple times btw (imo). They were able to force every opponent into melee where they were the strongest class back then.
The changes i´ve proposed would also greatly help a DK in my opinion and make wings a really good skill again.

Sorry but you cannot belittle Mines like that, Daedric mines is integral to countering melee builds,

They deal High dmg AND root you, you can kite around 5 of them, shield stack for free crit immunity and if things really go hairy droo your now buffed Atro ON top of mine camping AND shield stack.

Compare that to 4 maximum reflected projects, which could easily be countered by Light attacking, timing your dmg, or using non reflectable skills ( so many of these)

Still someone who has not learned that mines require you to move into them - there is no such thing as countering melee if he does not let you counter him.

On the light attack thing: Really? Are we talking about DKs that don´t recognise when you´re preparing to break their wings with lightattacks?
Because that´s the same level of dumb as firing 4 snipes into a DK with wings up.
Both should be absolutely irrelevant.

arkansas_ESO

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you have difficulty countering or at the very least stalling a sorc as a magicka DK, you need to learn to play the class. That's on live. With the incoming changes, the net loss for dks in this match up is force pulse going through wings. The net gain is a much more potent heal than you have on live, 5+% raw damage on your spammable (and FYI I've had power lash hit sorcs for 7-9k in duels consistently), and a powerful ulti that will be the go to in this match up. And in the end, Force pulse going thru wings is probably a buff as that skill will never be what kills the DK and the change will result in more up time on wings.

Listening to some of these usual DK naysayers you'd think the class is pretty much unplayable right now and that's far from the case. They are too biased to take seriously. The changes incoming are strong and I look forward to playing my DK. But if any of you have a sorc, I'll gladly duel you on my DK next patch and we can see how helpless the poor, poor magicka DK is...

Finally, some sense in this thread! Ayra knows what he's talking about about.

arkansas_ESO

Minalan wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Somehow the long anticipated "buff Dk" update turned out to be a "buff sorc" update. It almost makes the pre-nerf DK threads that came out before PTS seem silly and ridiculous. And by almost I mean completely and absolutely.

Never mind that magicka nightblades do better with destro staves AND EoTS. They got like one cheap skill cost increased to around force pulse, and it's the end of the world.

Anyone using pets in open world PVP is still going to be sorely disappointed.

@Minalan Wait, what? How do mNBs do better with destro staves and EOTS?

1. Hitting out of stealth, that 8% staff damage bonus gets a lot bigger.

2. They can spam gap close, and NB make much more effective bomb builds than a sorc does.

Are we playing the same game?

1. Why would you gank on anything but stam NB
2. NB does have better AOE, but Streak works just as well for closing the gap (if you have to steak more than twice in a row you didn't bomb them in the right place) and sorc has vastly superior single target burst.

krathos

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

1.) Regarding Whip: 5% more damage is huge when its a skill that is spammable, when that buff stacks with cps and dunmer passives and is amplified by sets like spell weave and sun, and when power lash has a tool tip in the range of ultimates. What does banner have to do with PvP? DK damage is seeing nothing but buffs in PvP and overall buffs in PvE too.

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

My comments are coming from a place of playing one and seeing how ridiculously strong it is in duels. I'm just sick of magicka DKs acting like the class is unplayable when I know that's simply not true from experience and from playing with actually good ones. The class is one of the best 1v1, and it is one of the best with group support. 1vX its not the best, but if it was made significantly better in that regard it would be unstoppable in the other types of PvP. Its seeing nothing but buffs this patch, but as I've said before some people will never be satisfied because their frame of reference is a time when Magicka DK was the most OP class to ever exist.

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

@CyrusArya

The Destro ult WAS garbage on PTS. It was buffed last second to the damage we see now. Big difference. Also whip 5% is definitely meaningless in this comparison to sorc since most sorc builds will be getting an 8% to all single target OR AoE damage bonus themselves from destro staff passives. It is difficult for a magdk to run destro staff because we need a full sustain set and a full damage set and it is much more difficult to run 5 light. Most of the time 1h/shield is used for the same reason as heavy because the preventative damage is so important due to the lack of reliability from our own heals (which you even agree to in your post). The new CDB changes do nothing to alter this as it is still unreliable, even if it is potentially more potent. Also there is no room on our bars to slot a destro skill to activate the passive even if we do finagle it into our build.

I play magdk main. I am glad they didn't get over buffed and I don't wish to return to 1.5 glory days but the changes made are dumb. Give whip the 5% damage bonus, sure, make CDB a HoT, give power lash minor heroism, and normalize DP/EH skill costs. Forget the rest of the worthless buffs and nerfs we were handed this patch.

EDIT: Not to mention the normalization of CC immunity for break free hurts us the most too. That means fewer power lashes and fewer opportunities to lock someone down in order to make my way over to them.

lucky_Sage

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

1.) Regarding Whip: 5% more damage is huge when its a skill that is spammable, when that buff stacks with cps and dunmer passives and is amplified by sets like spell weave and sun, and when power lash has a tool tip in the range of ultimates. What does banner have to do with PvP? DK damage is seeing nothing but buffs in PvP and overall buffs in PvE too.

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

My comments are coming from a place of playing one and seeing how ridiculously strong it is in duels. I'm just sick of magicka DKs acting like the class is unplayable when I know that's simply not true from experience and from playing with actually good ones. The class is one of the best 1v1, and it is one of the best with group support. 1vX its not the best, but if it was made significantly better in that regard it would be unstoppable in the other types of PvP. Its seeing nothing but buffs this patch, but as I've said before some people will never be satisfied because their frame of reference is a time when Magicka DK was the most OP class to ever exist.

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

@CyrusArya

banner nerf hits hard in pvp it is the only way for a magdk to solo more than one Templar the dmg buffed helps a lot it makes us have a minor burst combo with deep breathes exhale and power lash mixed with major defile and also the dmg reduction it gave aswell the high cost and easy to avoid the nerf was not needed it was a main tools I used to kill big groups when in a small group.

they didn't fix our sustain which is awful in pvp and our self heals are not reliable the CDB buff wasn't a buff. now the heal wont save me from a gank at least before I could cast it ounce the igneous then again and be out of a NB execute range

CyrusArya

@krathos

yeah man these are decent suggestions, not ridiculously over the top like some of the others I've seen flying around. While I do agree that magicka DK could use some slight tweaking, my posts are largely in response to people acting like magicka DK is in a completely deplorable state or that they are basically fodder for sorcs next patch. You are one of the people on our server who plays magicka DK well and I'm sure you can attest to the fact that the class isn't nearly as bad as some make it seem. I also don't appreciate the envy and spite some DK's are showing towards sorcs when our class didn't really see much in the way of class specific (non pet) buffs while DK's are actually getting a few new toys.

On paper the dragon blood changes look good. It's becoming a heal that gets stronger the more you spam it and can crit. When you combine this with the fact that DK resource bars see-saw a lot due to battle roar, I can see it being very powerful. Can it be tweaked? sure. But due to the nature of how dragon blood mechanically works I gotta stress that it must be balanced with extreme caution, and ZOS is clearly aware of this fact. Its a fine line between making it work well and making magicka DK's immortal in the right hands...

All that being said, I would love to see CDB be a self sufficient heal if it isn't already on PTS. If DK's could survive between this, embers, and battle roar you could easily run a fire staff and sustain off of elemental drain. I don't need to explain to you how powerful a destro staff/sword and board magicka DK could potentially be.

krathos

@CyrusArya

I agree and the animosity towards sorcs is uncalled for - they have their woes as well. For me, I just wish we had a reliable self heal that wasn't complete crap. I'd take a near vigor strength HoT and lower the healing on embers over whatever unreliable mess CDB looks like it will be. I don't think the CDB changes are useless, like others, just that they are unreliable like the rest of the DK healing capabilities.

I don't really care about wings. I stopped running it months ago and imho it's a waste of a bar slot already. It's buggy af and in outnumbered scenarios i feel it absorbs more light attacks than any actual skill that hurts. But with that said, sorcs feel like almost a direct counter without them. They're hard to catch and if I do catch them I have to navigate through their mines and don't often have the burst to peel their shields off and get the kill quickly enough. Any win becomes a battle of attrition at that point and the sorc has to be dumb enough to stick around. I can understand my fellow DKs frustration with an already buggy skill continuing to see unnecessary nerfs on top of the indirect nerf to petrify (my best sorc counter atm, since it interrupts their burst combo with consistency or forces them to use up their stam pool), and direct and indirect buffs to sorc next patch. On live, any sorc who complains about magdk also needs to L2P.

That being said magdk is alright right now and will be better next patch. I don't like the direction of the buffs but they are buffs and hopefully we can see more improvements to the class and play style down the road.

I think if CDB proves to be worthwhile light armor magdk will make a comeback and not in the current 1h&shield or DW + resto style, either, but rather like you said destro/1h&shield or double 1h&shield. I think the CDB changes will do fine with my play style of balancing pots/battle roar for sustain. We'll have to wait and see, though, since the PTS doesn't provide much opportunity for open world testing.

Minalan

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Somehow the long anticipated "buff Dk" update turned out to be a "buff sorc" update. It almost makes the pre-nerf DK threads that came out before PTS seem silly and ridiculous. And by almost I mean completely and absolutely.

Never mind that magicka nightblades do better with destro staves AND EoTS. They got like one cheap skill cost increased to around force pulse, and it's the end of the world.

Anyone using pets in open world PVP is still going to be sorely disappointed.

@Minalan Wait, what? How do mNBs do better with destro staves and EOTS?

1. Hitting out of stealth, that 8% staff damage bonus gets a lot bigger.

2. They can spam gap close, and NB make much more effective bomb builds than a sorc does.

Are we playing the same game?

1. Why would you gank on anything but stam NB
2. NB does have better AOE, but Streak works just as well for closing the gap (if you have to steak more than twice in a row you didn't bomb them in the right place) and sorc has vastly superior single target burst.

1. Because nightblades gank entire zergs? Boom! It's hilarious.

2. My point: this patch is a nice buff for nightblades too. Calling it a 'sorc patch' is a tad disingenuous.

Stamden

This ability needs to have a buff attached to it. Magika steal or major expedition would work great. DK's really need better resource management and movement.

It also needs to cost much less than it does now.

lucky_Sage

CyrusArya wrote: »

@krathos

yeah man these are decent suggestions, not ridiculously over the top like some of the others I've seen flying around. While I do agree that magicka DK could use some slight tweaking, my posts are largely in response to people acting like magicka DK is in a completely deplorable state or that they are basically fodder for sorcs next patch. You are one of the people on our server who plays magicka DK well and I'm sure you can attest to the fact that the class isn't nearly as bad as some make it seem. I also don't appreciate the envy and spite some DK's are showing towards sorcs when our class didn't really see much in the way of class specific (non pet) buffs while DK's are actually getting a few new toys.

On paper the dragon blood changes look good. It's becoming a heal that gets stronger the more you spam it and can crit. When you combine this with the fact that DK resource bars see-saw a lot due to battle roar, I can see it being very powerful. Can it be tweaked? sure. But due to the nature of how dragon blood mechanically works I gotta stress that it must be balanced with extreme caution, and ZOS is clearly aware of this fact. Its a fine line between making it work well and making magicka DK's immortal in the right hands...

All that being said, I would love to see CDB be a self sufficient heal if it isn't already on PTS. If DK's could survive between this, embers, and battle roar you could easily run a fire staff and sustain off of elemental drain. I don't need to explain to you how powerful a destro staff/sword and board magicka DK could potentially be.

i thought about running dewtro resto 5 rattle 5 lich 2 blood spawn or grartharr but the down side is leasing healing or a dot and i dont really think making you slot a ability for passive when stam weapons dont have to to get crit dmg or pen

Veg

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

Getting facerolled by mDK's. Praise kek

arkansas_ESO

Minalan wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Somehow the long anticipated "buff Dk" update turned out to be a "buff sorc" update. It almost makes the pre-nerf DK threads that came out before PTS seem silly and ridiculous. And by almost I mean completely and absolutely.

Never mind that magicka nightblades do better with destro staves AND EoTS. They got like one cheap skill cost increased to around force pulse, and it's the end of the world.

Anyone using pets in open world PVP is still going to be sorely disappointed.

@Minalan Wait, what? How do mNBs do better with destro staves and EOTS?

1. Hitting out of stealth, that 8% staff damage bonus gets a lot bigger.

2. They can spam gap close, and NB make much more effective bomb builds than a sorc does.

Are we playing the same game?

1. Why would you gank on anything but stam NB
2. NB does have better AOE, but Streak works just as well for closing the gap (if you have to steak more than twice in a row you didn't bomb them in the right place) and sorc has vastly superior single target burst.

1. Because nightblades gank entire zergs? Boom! It's hilarious.

2. My point: this patch is a nice buff for nightblades too. Calling it a 'sorc patch' is a tad disingenuous.

1. You mentioned the 8% increase to single target damage, so I assumed you meant single target ganking
2. It's a nice patch for bomb blades, but for every other mNB it's a pretty bad one. I don't want to just spam SAP on my mNB as much as you don't want just spam Encase on your sorc

Veg

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

[*] I tested this ultimate thoroughly on the pts. Its not even close to stamina based Dawn-breaker of smiting.
https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

[*] By giving us a movement mechanic like cloak or streak. Not a speed buff from using a gap closer like they did.

pieratsos

Veg wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

[*] I tested this ultimate thoroughly on the pts. Its not even close to stamina based Dawn-breaker of smiting.
https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

[*] By giving us a movement mechanic like cloak or streak. Not a speed buff from using a gap closer like they did.

How about no. Nightblades and sorcs are designed around mobility. DKs are not designed around mobility so how about ask for buffs that actually help to play the DK the way its meant to be played. If you want to be mobile and burst people down fast just play a sorc and stop asking for DKs to be made into a fire version of sorc.
People asking for mobility and then they wonder how they end up with stupid speed buffs, no heals and no sustain.

Veg

pieratsos wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

[*] I tested this ultimate thoroughly on the pts. Its not even close to stamina based Dawn-breaker of smiting.
https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

[*] By giving us a movement mechanic like cloak or streak. Not a speed buff from using a gap closer like they did.

How about no. Nightblades and sorcs are designed around mobility. DKs are not designed around mobility so how about ask for buffs that actually help to play the DK the way its meant to be played. If you want to be mobile and burst people down fast just play a sorc and stop asking for DKs to be made into a fire version of sorc.
People asking for mobility and then they wonder how they end up with stupid speed buffs, no heals and no sustain.

well that is how you would change our play-style. never said it should happen. At this point in the pts nothing important will happen. mDKs got a very small buff that is blasted out by the nerf to heavy armor and the traniee set.

So rip mDK. The indirect nerfs are what killed us. From dynamic ult gen to stam regen while blocking.

The class was designed around mechanics that dont exist anymore and the devs dont know how to fix us. kinda funny how 1/10 players could fix mDK's but 0/10 developers can fix mDKs.

pieratsos

Veg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Carbonised

2.) Regarding Ferocious Leap: We will see. Let me just remind you of the destro ulti which people hysterically said similar things about, but then turned out to be extremely powerful. On paper there's no reason for a fire leap that is powerful, cheap, immune to roots and gives a huge damage shield to be anything short of excellent.

[*] I tested this ultimate thoroughly on the pts. Its not even close to stamina based Dawn-breaker of smiting.
https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

The one legitimate argument I see is that open world you're basically forced to play sword and board block knight. But how do you make other play styles strong without making the permablock magicka dk grossly overpowered?

[*] By giving us a movement mechanic like cloak or streak. Not a speed buff from using a gap closer like they did.

How about no. Nightblades and sorcs are designed around mobility. DKs are not designed around mobility so how about ask for buffs that actually help to play the DK the way its meant to be played. If you want to be mobile and burst people down fast just play a sorc and stop asking for DKs to be made into a fire version of sorc.
People asking for mobility and then they wonder how they end up with stupid speed buffs, no heals and no sustain.

well that is how you would change our play-style. never said it should happen. At this point in the pts nothing important will happen. mDKs got a very small buff that is blasted out by the nerf to heavy armor and the traniee set.

So rip mDK. The indirect nerfs are what killed us. From dynamic ult gen to stam regen while blocking.

The class was designed around mechanics that dont exist anymore and the devs dont know how to fix us. kinda funny how 1/10 players could fix mDK's but 0/10 developers can fix mDKs.

A reliable heal and some minor changes would make mDK a lot better but some people are so obsessed with obsidian shard, mobility, chains and burst so we end up with crap like major expedition on chains and double projectile speed on obsidian shard.

Sugaroverdose

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Hopefully they give bow one attack that can not be reflected either.

On top of that i think reflect should have it´s projectile cap removed.
The duration should be set to 3s with cost reduced by 25%
One morph should reflect with increased dmg.
The other morph should deflect/absorb and remove/prevent snares and roots for it´s duration.

With the duration decreased and even more things going through it what are we supposed to do besides press this every 3 seconds and heal in between from all the stuff thats going through it? Imagine if mines only worked on Argonians and Khajits. It would be more useless than it stands to be now.

Wings need a working counter accessible for ranged playstyles of magica and stamina alike.

There should be no ability that hardcounters a complete playstyle.

Mines requires counter for mele magicka dk, where it is? Where counter for shield stacking?
Force shock(it's counted as 3 separate projectiles, did you know?) + LA weave = wings already down

I've tested out it and it does not work this way, sorry for disinformation.
Still this nerf is just bad

Anhedonie

Neighbor wrote: »

It also needs to cost much less than it does now.

This is true for like...90% of mDK skills.

Master_Kas

Who slots wings nowadays even ?