ZOS, please explain reason for DK wings nerf

fred4

I am, of course, referring to Force Shock. The 2.7.0 patch notes state:

Force Shock: This ability and its morphs can no longer be reflected. Beam-type attacks cannot be reflected, but are able to be blocked.

Compared to the 2.7.2 patch notes this is a rather flippant comment. I know that beam type attacks, such as lightning / resto heavies, Soul Assault, J-Beam, and so on, cannot be reflected. Obviously Force Shock was not, up to now, in the same category. I really hope there is a better explanation than "oh we changed it, because we now think it's a beam-type attack".

The primary users of Force Shock are magicka sorcs. I main a melee (stam) DK and find my fights against them quite balanced and rather interesting. Yes, wings will negate much of what a sorcerer does, but a sorc typically also impedes me a great deal with mines and shields. Wings are expensive. I cannot maintain them continuously.

I guess this may turn out to be a double edged sword. Since wings only reflect 4 projectiles, there may be more uptime against Crystal Frags (or Merciless Resolve) by letting Force Shock through. It still seems like a DK nerf though.

Bashev

mDk will be hard countered by mSorcs. If you want to mitigate Force shock you have to block, if you want to gap close them you have to be prepared to activate the mines if you want to mitigate curse you have to purge. This will be the best patch since 1.6 for mSorcs.

Cinbri

Because stamknights were completely shutting down magicka range opponents. Eclipse suffer from this change too, btw.

DoJohn

I guess they did it because it was misleading and breaking a whole build? It's ok i guess

RoyJade

It's not wing who suffer the most, but the rally high number of defensive stance the pvp have.
Yes, Dk will now have much more difficulties against sorc. Is it good or bad ? I don't know. But what I know is S/B utility took a great hit, and that's good.

Armitas

You can't keep reflect up 24/7 so most use them reactivley. Things reactive cast wings don't reflect

• Fully animation canceled poison injections
• Point Blank frags
• Point blank overload
• All portions of the lightning channel, even the particle now
• Stone fists due to increased speed
• Javelin due to increased speed
• Everything its supposed to reflect but doesn't for reasons unknown
• Force shock
• Meteor
• Projectiles from stealth

ZOS wrecked any balance we had with sorcs in this update. The update we have waited so long for was a major failure. cDB is joke, wings were wrecked, our balance against a class was wrecked, leap that they say works while rooted doesn't work while rooted. Stuff we never asked for was buffed, everything we have been asking for except damage was ignored, like a real heal and sustain. Whoever thought DK's would be happy with an unreliable heal that may or may not be useless when you need it, and that cheaper encase spam mine fortress shock spam would be a good addition to the mDK struggle has seriously lost touch with reality as well as any hope the DK player base might have had left.

Edziu

so, if inow sorc got unblockable curse beauce of reflectable mostly his skills and permblock dk, so if now many sorc skills cant be reflected then return to old curse which can be blocked

Aquanova

Armitas wrote: »

You can't keep reflect up 24/7 so most use them reactivley. Things reactive cast wings don't reflect

• Fully animation canceled poison injections
• Point Blank frags
• Point blank overload
• All portions of the lightning channel, even the particle now
• Stone fists due to increased speed
• Javelin due to increased speed
• Everything its supposed to reflect but doesn't for reasons unknown
• Force shock
• Projectiles from stealth

ZOS wrecked any balance we had with sorcs in this update. The update we have waited so long for was a major failure. cDB is joke, wings were wrecked, our balance against a class was wrecked, leap that they say works while rooted doesn't work while rooted. Stuff we never asked for was buffed, everything we have been asking for except damage was ignored, like a real heal and sustain. Whoever thought DK's would be happy with an unreliable heal that may or may not be useless when you need it, and that cheaper encase spam mine fortress shock spam would be a good addition to the mDK struggle has seriously lost touch with reality as well as any hope the DK player base might have had left in you.

I agree 100%. I don't even slot wings on my magdk anymore since it was nerfed to 4 sec or 4 reflects as it cost too much to keep up and dampen/harness magicka are a better option.

This is a huge nerf for stam DKs in pvp though. With such a drastic change ZOS should lower the cost for this skill at the very least although I'd rather them just reverting it.

Sugaroverdose

fred4 wrote: »

I am, of course, referring to Force Shock. The 2.7.0 patch notes state:

Force Shock: This ability and its morphs can no longer be reflected. Beam-type attacks cannot be reflected, but are able to be blocked.

Compared to the 2.7.2 patch notes this is a rather flippant comment. I know that beam type attacks, such as lightning / resto heavies, Soul Assault, J-Beam, and so on, cannot be reflected. Obviously Force Shock was not, up to now, in the same category. I really hope there is a better explanation than "oh we changed it, because we now think it's a beam-type attack".

The primary users of Force Shock are magicka sorcs. I main a melee (stam) DK and find my fights against them quite balanced and rather interesting. Yes, wings will negate much of what a sorcerer does, but a sorc typically also impedes me a great deal with mines and shields. Wings are expensive. I cannot maintain them continuously.

I guess this may turn out to be a double edged sword. Since wings only reflect 4 projectiles, there may be more uptime against Crystal Frags (or Merciless Resolve) by letting Force Shock through. It still seems like a DK nerf though.

If it's "unreflectable beam" it also should be undodgable, but @Wrobel

luen79rwb17_ESO

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

Luigi_Vampa

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

I think it is the totality of the problems with wings. They reflect nearly nothing anymore. Hell, half the time they fail to reflect the things they are supposed to reflect. If they want to remove wings from the game, do so, but please don't leave us with a useless skill.

Waffennacht

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

Thank you @luen79rwb17_ESO

Stamden

Because Zenimax hates DKs with a passion.

Riggsy

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So MAGDKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

MAGDKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

FIFY

Armitas

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

Why are you getting facerolled by mDKs?

KramUzibra

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

As a Medium armor stam dk I relied heavily on reflective scales. Now with the nerf to shuffle, reflect scales and the increase in single target dps from a sorc running fire destro and the extra pop from curse with shield stacking and not to mention the sorcs free proc damage from emplosion! Yeah sorcs will be out performing this patch. At least against medium armor players.

fred4

KramUzibra wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So DKs can't faceroll sorcs not using a lightning staff anymore. Your main strat of dotting, rooting, hard knocking and whipping to death remains unchanged AND buffed with faster projectiles and stronger whip. You can now also close gap with no problem now!

DKs got ALOT of tools with this patch and I find it hard to believe they're still complaining for an ability anyone can use (force pulse) not only sorcs. And sorcs are happy cause curse remained basically the same in PVP with just an extra blow 5 seconds later? And that makes Sorc OP now?

As a Medium armor stam dk I relied heavily on reflective scales. Now with the nerf to shuffle, reflect scales and the increase in single target dps from a sorc running fire destro and the extra pop from curse with shield stacking and not to mention the sorcs free proc damage from emplosion! Yeah sorcs will be out performing this patch. At least against medium armor players.

This is who I am, by the way, a medium armor stam DK. And, yes, my playstyle is to back off, pop wings, and buff up when I'm in trouble or my buffs have run out. I do not agree with the people who say wings are already useless.

While sorcs run a spectrum, I am worried. I've been doing reasonably well against them in duels, won some, lost some. I have never been able to take down a pet sorc, in IC though. These are people who run Necropotence + Imperial Physique.

Once I run into the more powerful sorcs, in duels, those heavily specced into damage (and shields running from the same magicka stat!), I have to consciously force myself to use wings. It is the only way I know to survive and it already hampers my attack rotation, since I have no magicka left for Fossilize.

fred4

More than anything, I am looking for an explanation from ZOS themselves. Their reasoning behind this change makes it look like it was done on a whim, and that just annoys the crap out of me.

Armitas

fred4 wrote: »

More than anything, I am looking for an explanation from ZOS themselves. Their reasoning behind this change makes it look like it was done on a whim, and that just annoys the crap out of me.

Same, I would love to hear an explanation for how this leaves DK vs Sorc in a balanced state.

Lexxypwns

Bashev wrote: »

mDk will be hard countered by mSorcs. If you want to mitigate Force shock you have to block, if you want to gap close them you have to be prepared to activate the mines if you want to mitigate curse you have to purge. This will be the best patch since 1.6 for mSorcs.

You're not wrong about mSorc being super strong this patch, its probably the toughest spec.

However, I just want to point out that mistform mitigates curse, stops the frag proc from knocking you down, and lets you eat those mines. Sorcs are not hard coutnering mDK because the talons and fossilize work to completely negate the sorcs ranged advantage and renders streak totally useless.

I think sorc has the advantage, I also think mDK can still win the fight if he outplays said sorc. Curse+crushing shock+execute probably isn't killing good players, at least not more than once.

Rohamad_Ali

It hardly makes slotting wings even worth it anymore . A few seconds of meaningless reflects .

Lexxypwns

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It hardly makes slotting wings even worth it anymore . A few seconds of meaningless reflects .

I gotta disagree here. Wings, even its its current pathetic state, is the only thing keeping DK from being squishy AF. There's fights where that 1 reflected frag or lethal arrow keeps you from playing horse sim. I hate that they made crushing shock unreflectable, its dumb AF, but wings is still worth a bar slot for sure

Minalan

Armitas wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

More than anything, I am looking for an explanation from ZOS themselves. Their reasoning behind this change makes it look like it was done on a whim, and that just annoys the crap out of me.

Same, I would love to hear an explanation for how this leaves DK vs Sorc in a balanced state.

Force pulse does so little damage really. And now wings won't be easily pulled down by two ani-cancelled force pulses weaved with light attacks in two seconds. The reflected damage on that is laughable for the cost.

Wings will be there, waiting for that juicy proc'ed frag.

Yeah FP sucks, but that's not what's killing tanky heavy armored magDK's. Lets be honest.

Lastly, I think the big reasoning was that ice staff blocking with wings on a 40K Max mag DK was too much. It probably is, we'll see.

sneakymitchell

The force plus is whatever would u rather get hit by that with a heavy attack and force plus again light attack frag. Oh wait u died by the frag. That's 4 projectiles u reflected but then a frag hit u super hard. And then does another rotation again and another stunned by a frag with huge amount of missing health. But if Crystal frag projectile speed would increase in one the updates then it's a definite RIP wings pretty much.

Rohamad_Ali

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It hardly makes slotting wings even worth it anymore . A few seconds of meaningless reflects .

I gotta disagree here. Wings, even its its current pathetic state, is the only thing keeping DK from being squishy AF. There's fights where that 1 reflected frag or lethal arrow keeps you from playing horse sim. I hate that they made crushing shock unreflectable, its dumb AF, but wings is still worth a bar slot for sure

@Lexxypwns

Do you really think it's wings that does this ? I'm playing MagDK and I don't find them necessary for survivability . I will a lot a purge in their place and stay up longer in most fights . I guess it depends on the build so I'm not saying you are wrong .

Wings got nerfed already on time and what is reflectable . I don't think they need more nerfs to boost other classes but then again I don't know all the ins and outs of every class change this patch .

Yuke

I was the biggest Wings hardliner i have to say, but even i dont use them anymore because they are utter ***. They were once excellent to reduce pressure on you for a short time, so your heals can be more effective.

I play with a well respected mSorc on a daily basis (Derra), who has a wide understanding of PvP mechanics and even he said, that he cant understand where this is leading to.

mSorc are already insane to fight with Infernal Guardian/Pirate Sekelleton, unblockable curse/mines and the second best Destruction Ulti. (Pets on top of that in duel situations)

Its really pissing me of i have to say...i like many, many of the changes in the patchnotes but unblockable force pulse and nerfed trainee set will really wreck our DKs. You dont have to be a psychic to see that.

WillhelmBlack

I usually play Vampires for PvP so Mines and projectiles really ain't a thing. Only trouble is the Dawnbreaker's hurt A LOT!

You could try it? Just Mist Form round the mines popping all of them and they're gone. If you're getting ranged Mist Form in their face and get them locked down. You also get a nice cheap healing ultimate.

Armitas

Minalan wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

More than anything, I am looking for an explanation from ZOS themselves. Their reasoning behind this change makes it look like it was done on a whim, and that just annoys the crap out of me.

Same, I would love to hear an explanation for how this leaves DK vs Sorc in a balanced state.

Force pulse does so little damage really. And now wings won't be easily pulled down by two ani-cancelled force pulses weaved with light attacks in two seconds. The reflected damage on that is laughable for the cost.

Force pulse is deceptively small, it may have a lower tooltip than class based abilities but it also comes with 10% spell penetration and potentially 8% more damage. So now when you fight a sorc, you will be rolling through encases, and navigating around mines while taking lit channels, mortars and now a steady stream of force shocks while trying to create an opportunity to rush the sorc.

It's not burst for sure, but it's like getting hit with whip over and over again while not being able to return fire for a good bit of time.

fred4

My stam DK is a WW.

Due to role-playing reasons, I will NEVER play a vampire. I hate the look.

As for combos, here's another one. I often pop wings when I hear a Meteor. I then also block, but they will hit me with FP now. The server desyncs frequently enough that Meteor takes much longer to arrive than it should, all the while you stand there, stupidly, blocking when you could be doing stuff. At least if I put my wings up, I feel somewhat in control.

Anti_Virus

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Armitas

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Msorc is going to be the new meta,

-Curse will explode twice now
-still unblockable
-EOtS is still OP
-Force pulse now unreflectable
-Lightning staff goes through reflect and with the 8% AoE it will probably be meta
-Mines still deal high dmg AND root you
- Storm Atro got 25% buff in dmg
- Pets got resistance buffs( pretty tanky now)
- flame staff got 8% single target buff

Rip DK be it Magicka or Stamina. -___-

Somehow the long anticipated "buff Dk" update turned out to be a "buff sorc" update. It almost makes the pre-nerf DK threads that came out before PTS seem silly and ridiculous. And by almost I mean completely and absolutely.