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Why do they keep nerfing classes, skills, and gear?

justin.a.hairb14_ESO
I play ESO and all mmo's for that matter for the PVE dungeons, raids, and item drops. In ESO it seems that they are so worried about balancing PVP that they on the other hand are destroying things for people who play for PVE. Why can't they make all nerfs to classes, skills, and gear only take effect when you zone into cyrodill so they can stop ruining the PVE side of the game. Seems like all they care about is endgame PVP and if they ruin the PVE in the process then oh well. What I and most PVE players want is constant updates with more powerful gear, skills, harder dungeons, and raids (trials). I like running raids to get better and better gear so I move on to even harder stuff. I fell like after playing this game from launch my character isn't growing stronger anymore because all they do is nerf making me weaker. Due to this I may be forced to sign up for FFXIV A Realm Reborn because they actually care about End Game raiding and making an awesome tier based raiding and dungeon experience for PVE players to enjoy. I feel abandoned in the cold as a PVE player in ESO and PVE just is not what it could or should be due to them only seeming to care about PVP endgame..
  • OnThaLoose
    OnThaLoose
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    Because pvpers whine. It ALWAYS people that play pvp that complain about something being overpowered. In every game, not just ESO.
  • fastolfv_ESO
    fastolfv_ESO
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    simple answer is power creep is making the game too easy, skills and sets need to be rebalanced so dps isnt so high it makes content trivial. You can blame pvp all you want but when people pull 80k+ dps theres a problem
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    Because they cant handle the power creep they've created.
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  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    Hey look! It's our daily post by a PVEr blaming PVP for nerfs that have nothing to do with PVP! Even better, it was instantly followed by someone whining about PVP whiners.

    Take two seconds to look in the mirror. People are soloing Vet 4 man dungeons in PVE. That is exactly the type of thing that needs to be nerfed and it has nothing to do with PVP.
  • zuto40
    zuto40
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    Hey look! It's our daily post by a PVEr blaming PVP for nerfs that have nothing to do with PVP! Even better, it was instantly followed by someone whining about PVP whiners.

    Take two seconds to look in the mirror. People are soloing Vet 4 man dungeons in PVE. That is exactly the type of thing that needs to be nerfed and it has nothing to do with PVP.

    hey! just because i can blindfold myself and solo almost every vet dungeon doesnt mean there's a problem
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  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    zuto40 wrote: »
    Hey look! It's our daily post by a PVEr blaming PVP for nerfs that have nothing to do with PVP! Even better, it was instantly followed by someone whining about PVP whiners.

    Take two seconds to look in the mirror. People are soloing Vet 4 man dungeons in PVE. That is exactly the type of thing that needs to be nerfed and it has nothing to do with PVP.

    hey! just because i can blindfold myself and solo almost every vet dungeon doesnt mean there's a problem

    Step it up Zuto! All the cool kids are soloing 12 man vet trials these days! :)

    #balance
  • Dawnblade
    Dawnblade
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    ESO is NOT a typical progression type game where one gains power by completing the toughest content, and where the next content is tuned assuming one has progressed through the current.

    ESO is a grind game where one gains power (CP) by grinding XP as well as repetitive content for gear, and where the real level cap is CP 160 and what the content is all balanced against.

    When players gain too much power, typically through CP but also gear, anim cancelling, set stacking, whatever, they toss out nerfs to reset the treadmill.

    The difference is instead of running content for gear to power your character, then having all your gear made irrelevant when new content with new gear is released, the power you gain is constrained and reduced by nerfs, while you get to keep running the same old content.
    Edited by Dawnblade on January 15, 2017 5:18AM
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    There really are only 3 ways that you can balance PVE.

    - Completely change boss mechanics, which sounds fun and all but will be rendered pointless within days.
    - Add resources to the bosses, usually health.
    - Nerf players.

    None of these have anything to do with PVP, which I'll set aside for the moment.

    When it comes to PVE there are 2 groups, people who think it's balanced and those who don't. I personally do not. I just spent 2 hours in a group delve and never even came close to dying while fighting 10 skeletons at once. Many people can solo group content as well. This is not balanced as far as I'm concerned and as pointed out already is a power creep issue due to people being 400+ CP above the gear cap of 160.

    What this game needs, if not nerfs, is to keep the CP cap at 600 in the next update and add in CP600 gear ASAP. Even if it costs 1300 stupidium per piece it would allow ZOS to raise the mobs to CP600 and now we have nerf free balance.

    Of course it would make it necessary to have an actual group to do group content again, and most of us would no longer feel like Batman fighting a group of infants so people would still cry.

    Please note that PVP has nothing to do with any of this.

    Also, on a totally side note, never forget that if you asked most Deadra, who can't make forum posts, about balance they'd probably have a pretty different view point of the need for PVE nerfs than the OP.
    Edited by THEDKEXPERIENCE on January 15, 2017 5:36AM
  • Emmagoldman
    Emmagoldman
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    I pvp and pve and by 300 cp I had no problem with a vast majority of pve content. I think the only time I died regular questing after cp 160, was letting my dogs out and being afk. If we balanced based on pve, i would personally want big nerfs because it is way to easy a majority of the time. Your comment about stronger and stronger is over the top. There should be a limit and there should be challenge.

    The balances on pvp shouldnt.....in an ideal world....be that massive. Small buffs and nerfs and changes to a handful of sets. People offered great feedback and zos went in a direction nobody on either side was asking for.
  • Sausage
    Sausage
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    Rift has much better Raid content than Final Fantasy.

    Thats is exactly the reason why ESO didnt choose to go with raiding, becaus theres so many damn Raid Games. One thing is for sure, ESO's success doesnt depend on raid content, instead it sinks them further down. Innovative Content is 1000% time better.
    Edited by Sausage on January 15, 2017 7:32AM
  • Astanphaeus
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    It' funny, because as primary PvPer, I can easily see that many of these nerfs have zero impact on PvP and are obviously directed at PvE. Which with the amount of whining and wailing from the PvEers, they obviously think these are actually big nerfs. And honestly, PvE nerfs were needed. When I can solo almost all of the non-DLC dungeons in my PvP gear, there is a problem.

    I don't think ZOS is really that good at designing dungeons and making them difficult since they seem to mostly just use health buffs to falsely make dungeons appear more difficult rather than adding actual mechanics to the fights; but the point still stands that something needed/needs to be done, an these nerfs are a first step.

    So I'll just continue to laugh at all these PvEers who think these nerfs were intended for us PvPers, while somewhat crying inside that none of the nerfs we actually wanted to happen have occurred.
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    "Why do they keep nerfing classes, skills, and gear?"

    because people keep coming to the forums and commenting that they want certain skills or ultimates or class weakened in some way. and they do this repeatedly untill they get what they want.
    they even keep makeing new threads about that certain thing they want weakened and calling it "revisited" or "is this skill nerfed yet" type titles.
    it is kept fresh and constant untill they get that item nerfed or weakened.
  • Syrani
    Syrani
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    Like someone mentioned above, there is a lack of end game PVE progression content. It seems to me like they nerf us to keep that old content challenging, rather than provide any sort of progression through regular release of raids. That, and they are now having to deal with a CP system that is getting out of control, even though many people pointed out the potential issues of power creep way back when they announced it.

    Plus, it seems they are very heavy handed when it comes to "balance". They make really powerful sets/changes to skills without thinking things through, and then our damage goes through the roof. When our damage goes through the roof, out comes the nerf hammer. That's the real "end game" right there - dealing with their heavy handedness and lack of forethought.
  • Rev Rielle
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    It's all part of the process of trying to work towards overall balance.
    And yes, balance will basically never be truly found due to all the complexities and variabilities in place.
    But, that is no excuse to stop trying. The day ZoS stop trying to balance the game is the day we should really be worried.

    And the PvP v PvE argument is nonsencial. ZoS said so themselves that the change in place were in response to balance in both parts of the game.

    At the end of it all equipment is there for one real reason only; to enable our characters to complete content in the game. No developer ever has knowingly made changes that have resulted in their own content becoming impossible.
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  • Iselin
    Iselin
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    Because they don't. People normally stay quiet about the buffs (downright silent if they over-buff) and whine about nerfs. That's what you're seeing in the forums.
  • Emencie
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    OnThaLoose wrote: »
    Because pvpers whine. It ALWAYS people that play pvp that complain about something being overpowered. In every game, not just ESO.

    Uhh...
    Yea?

    Of course PvPers are the ones that point out when a certain combo is too powerful...

    When you are solo farming a vet dungeon you expect the npcs to come to the forum and complain about you being too powerful?

    PvPers are the ones who point it out because they are on the receiving end of an overpowered skill. PvE players don't complain because they only benefit from being overpowered, and npcs don't complain because they are npcs.
    Edited by Emencie on January 15, 2017 9:50AM
  • Spottswoode
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    The root reason for nerfs for the past year is by and large the champion system. The passives it gives coupled with newer and better high end gear make a number of abilities quite a lot more powerful than they were intended to be when they were created. Balancing out high cp, abilities, equipment, gear sets, and content difficulty is going to be an ongoing process.
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  • pattyLtd
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    The thing with this this "power creep" is that its somehow unavoidable (if you do the dungeons and even vet trials enough it all becomes easy after a while).

    I dont know why they go about balance the way they do and while i dont agree with many of the changes i also have to admit that it often turns oht to be not as bad as i first thought or maybe we just adept and forget how it used to be.

    I dont think its pvp vs pve at all personally and idont even care about balanceas long as i cant be in cyrodiil for longer then 10 minutes without crashing.

    You say all they care about is pvp but i beg to differ.
    If they really want the pvp vs pve debate to stop they need to either add more skill morphs or make them work differemtly against players same goes for sets.

    An option easily switch between pvp and pve builds would be nice too but i guess thats offtopic.
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  • RazorCaltrops
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    Because they cant handle the power creep they've created.

    This in a nutshell.

    There's no new real content for ages, new sets/scaled ones took charge and the damage potential in PVE is so ridiculous that organized groups can literally ignore most, if not all mechanics in an environment where even trash mobs have nearly the same health as dungeon bosses.

    The solution was to bring new content, but instead they chose to "balance" skills only for PVE. PVP demands still suffering from lack of meaningful balance changes imo.
    PS4 EU
  • Easily_Lost
    Easily_Lost
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    To all the PVP'ers and PVE'ers:
    Who's the one ( don't want to mention any names ) that asks, "Would you like some Cheese with that Whine"
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  • Kolache
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    Because as of 1T, the majority of the world is supposed to be end-game content. The scaling introduced is supposed to make players of similar knowledge/ability comparable to each other performance-wise so that everyone can group together. Everyone being able to group together makes the progression that they do offer less likely to kill the game over time by spreading out the population across a massive power-curve.

    When there are some outliers, (gear, skills, mechanics), and when they are combined together, they wreck this concept. That being said, they still allow quite a bit of shenanigans. None of the upcoming nerfs are going to stop me from doing VMA with just a couple lazy-deaths, (not because I am good, but because my class/gear carries me). They're not going to stop me from soloing every world boss or almost every vet dungeon boss that doesn't have some sort of enrage timer equivalent or team mechanic.

    Besides, from what I've seen it takes a loooong time for people to realize how much power they can squeeze out of their character. Hell, it took me a long time anyway. Having pugged soooo many dungeons I can tell you the number of people that have really unlocked their character/class/role's potential is extremely small, and it definitely isn't merely indicated by CP. It's easy to spot because they're the ones that will be soloing the run and/or melting vet mobs like they're on the starter island.

    TLDR1:
    1T wants to scale the content for everyone to play together effectively; they have to reign in (just a bit) demigods coming down from the heavens to smite all content before mere mortals in order for mortals to have fun

    TLDR2:
    You (in general) probably have a lot more power to muster for your character(s) anyway
    Edited by Kolache on January 15, 2017 12:32PM
    Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    Bravo to the 15 or so posters who all realize that this isn't a "PVP whiner" issue. We have come a long way.
  • Tabbycat
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    "Why do they keep nerfing classes, skills, and gear?"

    because people keep coming to the forums and commenting that they want certain skills or ultimates or class weakened in some way. and they do this repeatedly untill they get what they want.
    they even keep makeing new threads about that certain thing they want weakened and calling it "revisited" or "is this skill nerfed yet" type titles.
    it is kept fresh and constant untill they get that item nerfed or weakened.

    Does this mean it can be countered by having twice as many people whine and complain on the forums wanting specific skills, ultimates or classes buffed in some way and do so repeatedly until we get what we want?

    What's good for the goose and all that.
    Edited by Tabbycat on January 15, 2017 1:51PM
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  • FloppyTouch
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    Pvp is the true end game of any mmorpg. You grind dungeons and trials to get the gear you need to pvp not to do that same trial and dungeons a little faster and better what's the point in that(please don't say leader boards)?

    They nerf anything that needs it for balance(they don't do it well at all btw)can't have one class or set that way out performs the others or what's the point in playing others classes or useing other sets.

    Edited by FloppyTouch on January 15, 2017 3:24PM
  • PurifedBladez
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    I wish all the devs cared about was endgame pvp.. that would be *** sweet.
  • Sylosi
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    OnThaLoose wrote: »
    Because pvpers whine. It ALWAYS people that play pvp that complain about something being overpowered. In every game, not just ESO.

    And the reason most PvE players don't "whine" is because they are Skinner Box addicts who play the game for rewards, so don't care how broken OP something is, because that just means they get their rewards faster, whilst a nerf would mean those rewards take longer, PvE players save all their whining for any nerf regardless of how merited it is, it's pathetic.

    On and a PSA for all the PvE players who are ignorant enough to think all nerfs are for PvP, if you were any good at PvE you would know the powercreep in this game is such that many mechanics in PvE are being bypassed or completely trivialized, so is basically broken, hence nerfs to PvE are needed.







    Edited by Sylosi on January 15, 2017 2:27PM
  • ZOS_Ragnar
    ZOS_Ragnar
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    We have removed several threads that were off topic and disruptive. Please keep your posts civil and constructive.
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  • J2JMC
    J2JMC
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    Where was everybody complaining about the power creep when the CP system first came out or when ZOS blatantly said they knew the system was broken but didn't think it would ve a problem so soon?

    Knee Jerk, L2P, Obtuse, Casual, Entitled, All The Best, unnecessary mention of CoD

    Battle leveling for pve content defeats the idea of progression. Remove CP

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  • Cadbury
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    Tabbycat wrote: »
    "Why do they keep nerfing classes, skills, and gear?"

    because people keep coming to the forums and commenting that they want certain skills or ultimates or class weakened in some way. and they do this repeatedly untill they get what they want.
    they even keep makeing new threads about that certain thing they want weakened and calling it "revisited" or "is this skill nerfed yet" type titles.
    it is kept fresh and constant untill they get that item nerfed or weakened.

    Does this mean it can be countered by having twice as many people whine and complain on the forums wanting specific skills, ultimates or classes buffed in some way and do so repeatedly until we get what we want?

    What's good for the goose and all that.

    Well, it worked for the Sorc players....j/s
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  • jarydf
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    There should be a difference in the way ZOS deal with power creep and over performing skills/gear.

    They should deal with the over performing skills and gear directly and for the overall power creep stuff they should lower the values of commonly taken passives in the champion point system that will effect us all equally.

    If mighty and elemental expert maxed out at 20% rather than 25%, elfborn and precise strikes went to 10%, etc, it would "lower the ceiling" for us all equally. There are common cp passives we all take that only increase damage overall.

    They could even take out 14 attribute points and the associate buffs to make 50 total at level 50 again.

    The thing that seems frustrating to me is when they try to get tricky and clever by "balancing" changing / nerfing things that have been perfectly fine for years to avoid changing something that got added and mucked up more recently and caused the imbalance. They make it harder on themselves having to find skills across the classes / weapons to nerf but by doing it in this way there are guaranteed to be winners and losers in who uses that skill or gear that gets nerfed.

    Of course people naturally just try and change their setup to the 2nd most OP setup but the "ceiling lowering" would be fairer and probably more acceptable to the community as a whole.

    Your average cp160 player is generally not OP for the content but by the time you get to cp600 it is starting to be a different story.
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