Proc Sets changes are Misdiagnosed - This is what needs to happen

usmcjdking

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

That seems to be the case doesn't it? People are angry because the armor designed to provide the most defense and survivability, actually does it...lol.

It also provides the best dual resource management by a huge margin.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

usmcjdking wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

That seems to be the case doesn't it? People are angry because the armor designed to provide the most defense and survivability, actually does it...lol.

It also provides the best dual resource management by a huge margin.

And the other armor types promote the best resource management for one specific resource. Heavy is a jack of all trades in terms of resource management. Which is intentional due to the nature of tanking. Medium promotes the most Stamina recovery and reduction. Light armor the most magicka recovery and reduction.

Izaki

A visual cue before you get hit by a proc is actually what is most needed imo. Like when a set procs, you get 1 sec before it actually does damage. That way you can see it coming. Monster sets have visuals. You can avoid that big green bear or those 3 balls. You can get out of grothdarr cause you can see it. Viper though? Red mountain? You just take a crap ton of damage and die.

STEVIL

mtwiggz wrote: »

Proc set damage needs to be reduced. Thats the fix.

You're welcome ZoS.

Really is ashen grip so Op it needs a reduction?

STEVIL

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

What would be the purpose of tanks in pvp?

Sorry but i really think you misinterpret this. Not dying has been the go to meta way back in 1.4 and 1.5 of the game before the CP system even got introduced (it became somewhat impossible in 1.6 and 1.7 before orsinium).

It´s not proccsets causing the heavy armor meta. It´s the ability to not die and wait for friends that is so appealing for players. Heavy compliments this best at the moment.

Heavy armor is intended to make it so you can't die nearly as easily. That is how it should be. The armor is heavy for a reason. The problem now is that due to all these new proccsets it's possible to make both very tanky and high damage builds simultaneously.

i tend to agree with both of you and i think the proc sets have exacerbated the issue by removing from play one of the main weaknesses in hvy armor builds - bad damage.

in the good old days - if you took hvy you got significantly less damage output in exchange for the healing.,. even the TG buffs with wrath did not really change it all that much. the offense was in light and med and survival in hvy esp if your hvy build meant spending significaant amounts on health.

But proc sets deliver damage based on their scale their traits not yours.

So a 64 stamina and a 64 health seem to output just the same with hvy procs. So if your character focuses on staying alive, maybe debuffing and DPS when its convenient and safe - and letting the sets do damage - you get the best of both worlds.

thats why i say they need to give proc sets a base damage level of at least half what they have now - thats the gear power source - and then factor in wpn or spl dmg as usual for the type of attack.

thats way, even with proc sets, the sacrifice of damage for both the armor and the lack of weapon damage traits is retained.

Still leaves the hvy survival build to wait for friends viable but loses the massive burst unless you build a damage dealing character to support the set.

STEVIL

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

That seems to be the case doesn't it? People are angry because the armor designed to provide the most defense and survivability, actually does it...lol.

i want hvy armor to be very survivable - i just dont want sets that proc ignoring completely the character's choice to sacrifice damage factors.

Betheny

Betheny wrote: »

Just throwing this out there, what if proc sets had different effects depending on the weight of the armour, so that a set with procs on light armour might do damage or make a shield or something but on heavy armour that proc would instead buff tanking capability and not damage, and so on for medium as well?

Still wouldn't mind some feedback on this idea.

LiquidPony

Betheny wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Just throwing this out there, what if proc sets had different effects depending on the weight of the armour, so that a set with procs on light armour might do damage or make a shield or something but on heavy armour that proc would instead buff tanking capability and not damage, and so on for medium as well?

Still wouldn't mind some feedback on this idea.

I don't see how it would work. Most of the potent proc sets (e.g., Viper, Widowmaker, Red Mountain) are dropped and only come in one weight. And what if I'm running a proc set as 3 jewelry and 2 weapons, or wearing multiple armor weights?

Betheny

LiquidPony wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Just throwing this out there, what if proc sets had different effects depending on the weight of the armour, so that a set with procs on light armour might do damage or make a shield or something but on heavy armour that proc would instead buff tanking capability and not damage, and so on for medium as well?

Still wouldn't mind some feedback on this idea.

I don't see how it would work. Most of the potent proc sets (e.g., Viper, Widowmaker, Red Mountain) are dropped and only come in one weight. And what if I'm running a proc set as 3 jewelry and 2 weapons, or wearing multiple armor weights?

The ones that come in one weight get only the effects that should go to that weight - if they only drop in Heavy then the effects should be for tanking, not for applying damage. So something like -

• Heavy - heal and taunt or damage mitigation (block boost or dodge boost) and taunt
• Medium - physical damage or dodge boost
• Light - spell damage or shields

Along those lines, effects obviously could be more creative that this, but that would be the general idea.

So that Heavy Armour never also boost damage.

Jewellery and weapon effects could also be dependent on main type of armour worn. So the effect for a Light Armour user equipped with the same jewellery or weapons would be different to that of a Heavy Armour user (with same jewellery or weapons), with different sets offering choices of boost.

Also where sets come in various armour weights you'd need the armour in same weight to get the set bonus for that weight, like you couldn't get the 5 set bonus for Medium Armour by using only one Medium and four Heavy, or even three Medium and two Heavy, and so on. Would need to be 5 Medium Armour to get the five set bonus for that weight.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

What would be the purpose of tanks in pvp?

Sorry but i really think you misinterpret this. Not dying has been the go to meta way back in 1.4 and 1.5 of the game before the CP system even got introduced (it became somewhat impossible in 1.6 and 1.7 before orsinium).

It´s not proccsets causing the heavy armor meta. It´s the ability to not die and wait for friends that is so appealing for players. Heavy compliments this best at the moment.

Heavy armor is intended to make it so you can't die nearly as easily. That is how it should be. The armor is heavy for a reason. The problem now is that due to all these new proccsets it's possible to make both very tanky and high damage builds simultaneously.

i tend to agree with both of you and i think the proc sets have exacerbated the issue by removing from play one of the main weaknesses in hvy armor builds - bad damage.

in the good old days - if you took hvy you got significantly less damage output in exchange for the healing.,. even the TG buffs with wrath did not really change it all that much. the offense was in light and med and survival in hvy esp if your hvy build meant spending significaant amounts on health.

But proc sets deliver damage based on their scale their traits not yours.

So a 64 stamina and a 64 health seem to output just the same with hvy procs. So if your character focuses on staying alive, maybe debuffing and DPS when its convenient and safe - and letting the sets do damage - you get the best of both worlds.

thats why i say they need to give proc sets a base damage level of at least half what they have now - thats the gear power source - and then factor in wpn or spl dmg as usual for the type of attack.

thats way, even with proc sets, the sacrifice of damage for both the armor and the lack of weapon damage traits is retained.

Still leaves the hvy survival build to wait for friends viable but loses the massive burst unless you build a damage dealing character to support the set.

This is precisely what my proposed changes are meant to achieve.

dsalter

Mojmir wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

This is what needs to happen .

And add salt for slip resistance

shouldn't the salt be applied into the swirl chamber to stop tear moisture getting into the air?

Domander

I think they need to balance some of these over performing sets. Some of these under performing sets need adjusted as well. Give players choices, right now it feels like there's a lot of cool set bonuses that don't get used because they aren't as powerful.

Derra

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

What would be the purpose of tanks in pvp?

Sorry but i really think you misinterpret this. Not dying has been the go to meta way back in 1.4 and 1.5 of the game before the CP system even got introduced (it became somewhat impossible in 1.6 and 1.7 before orsinium).

It´s not proccsets causing the heavy armor meta. It´s the ability to not die and wait for friends that is so appealing for players. Heavy compliments this best at the moment.

Heavy armor is intended to make it so you can't die nearly as easily. That is how it should be. The armor is heavy for a reason. The problem now is that due to all these new proccsets it's possible to make both very tanky and high damage builds simultaneously.

With the bonuses offered by heavy armor there can´t be a significant difference in dmg or sustain compared to medium or light (significant being more than 10%).
That means you can always build for very high dmg while wearing heavy while still keeping it´s other benefits. Which is ironically the reason why it´s been seeing an increased use since thieves guild.

Betheny

Derra wrote: »

With the bonuses offered by heavy armor there can´t be a significant difference in dmg or sustain compared to medium or light (significant being more than 10%).
That means you can always build for very high dmg while wearing heavy while still keeping it´s other benefits. Which is ironically the reason why it´s been seeing an increased use since thieves guild.

I suggested something above that could balance the armour types, so Heavy Armour can no longer stack high damage as well as high damage mitigation.

I'll post it again below.

Betheny wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Just throwing this out there, what if proc sets had different effects depending on the weight of the armour, so that a set with procs on light armour might do damage or make a shield or something but on heavy armour that proc would instead buff tanking capability and not damage, and so on for medium as well?

Still wouldn't mind some feedback on this idea.

I don't see how it would work. Most of the potent proc sets (e.g., Viper, Widowmaker, Red Mountain) are dropped and only come in one weight. And what if I'm running a proc set as 3 jewelry and 2 weapons, or wearing multiple armor weights?

The ones that come in one weight get only the effects that should go to that weight - if they only drop in Heavy then the effects should be for tanking, not for applying damage. So something like -

• Heavy - heal and taunt or damage mitigation (block boost or dodge boost) and taunt
• Medium - physical damage or dodge boost
• Light - spell damage or shields

Along those lines, effects obviously could be more creative that this, but that would be the general idea.

So that Heavy Armour never also boost damage.

Jewellery and weapon effects could also be dependent on main type of armour worn. So the effect for a Light Armour user equipped with the same jewellery or weapons would be different to that of a Heavy Armour user (with same jewellery or weapons), with different sets offering choices of boost.

Also where sets come in various armour weights you'd need the armour in same weight to get the set bonus for that weight, like you couldn't get the 5 set bonus for Medium Armour by using only one Medium and four Heavy, or even three Medium and two Heavy, and so on. Would need to be 5 Medium Armour to get the five set bonus for that weight.

TheHsN

i think classes should mean SOMETHING...

DPS should be dps
Healer should be healer
Tank should be tank...

in this game tank classes are making more DPS than the actual DPS classes... now u try to make people tank with wooden stick...(very very very meaningful really!!!???) If u give every class every options of course u cant make any balance cuz there will be tones of things to mess up...

People have Heavy Armor:
- Have almost same magicka like Light Armor has
- Have more sustain than Light Armor has
- Have more spell damage than Light Armor has
- Have more speed than Light Armor has...

And also:
-More Health
-More Stamina
-Moren Armor
-More resistance


i think first thing they need to do is balancing classes and Armors should have some meanings...

Ragnaroek93

Heavy armor, Redguard and Unchained are the reasons why these builds are OP, not proc sets lol. You have so much regen and survivability that you can just stack almost everything into damage. At least Unchained will get nerfed (sadly it will affect medium armor builds as well).
Introducing a cooldown for proc sets won't change anything because you can just use Viper and something with more defense like Troll King or Malubeth and move CP from blessed into more crit dmg. Nothing will change in this way. Removing the crit damage is the best solution (after removing them) that we could get actually, because nothing else will prevent this high dmg burst from single procsets. Stop comparing the meta proc sets with non meta proc sets. Ashen Grip is not viable in it's current state and it won't become viable unless it gets a rework, no matter if it gets nerfed or not in the next patch.

arkansas_ESO

"The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. "

Heavy armor has been the best armor choice since it received buffs in the Dark Brotherhood patch. Proc sets weren't viable until Velidreth and Viper were introduced in the Shadows of the Hist patch, which came after Dark Brotherhood. Obviously proc sets are an issue, but to say that the switch to heavy is just a reaction to the proc meta doesn't make sense, heavy armor was widely used before proc sets came about.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

The damage difference is pretty small, and heavy armor's sustain is actually phenomenal, because it gives stamina users (who would normally be in medium) enough magic regen to use skills like Dark Deal and Purifying Ritual frequently, and gives magic users (who would normally be in light) enough stamina regen to CC break frequently. It's also worth mentioning that the resource return from heavy armor isn't technically considered regen by the game, which allows players to maintain their stamina pool even when they're blocking, which allows things like permablock builds to exist.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

"The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. "

Heavy armor has been the best armor choice since it received buffs in the Dark Brotherhood patch. Proc sets weren't viable until Velidreth and Viper were introduced in the Shadows of the Hist patch, which came after Dark Brotherhood. Obviously proc sets are an issue, but to say that the switch to heavy is just a reaction to the proc meta doesn't make sense, heavy armor was widely used before proc sets came about.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

The damage difference is pretty small, and heavy armor's sustain is actually phenomenal, because it gives stamina users (who would normally be in medium) enough magic regen to use skills like Dark Deal and Purifying Ritual frequently, and gives magic users (who would normally be in light) enough stamina regen to CC break frequently. It's also worth mentioning that the resource return from heavy armor isn't technically considered regen by the game, which allows players to maintain their stamina pool even when they're blocking, which allows things like permablock builds to exist.

There is benefit to running Heavy as a Magicka user. I never denied that. Is the solution providing similar benefits for other armors? Such as Constitution? It has always been a nightmare for light armor users to maintain stamina.

Ankael07

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Be cause nightblades werent walking around with 4-5k weapon damage, 1 shotting people out of stealth back then.

Dubhliam

Viper is the real culprit.
It has a guaranteed proc chance unlike all other proc sets.

oibam

1.) Individual rework of all sets.
2.) Solution for the problem of stacking proc sets, weapon damage, spell damage, max ressource, shields.

worsttankever

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Heavy armor, Redguard and Unchained are the reasons why these builds are OP, not proc sets lol. You have so much regen and survivability that you can just stack almost everything into damage. At least Unchained will get nerfed (sadly it will affect medium armor builds as well).
Introducing a cooldown for proc sets won't change anything because you can just use Viper and something with more defense like Troll King or Malubeth and move CP from blessed into more crit dmg. Nothing will change in this way. Removing the crit damage is the best solution (after removing them) that we could get actually, because nothing else will prevent this high dmg burst from single procsets. Stop comparing the meta proc sets with non meta proc sets. Ashen Grip is not viable in it's current state and it won't become viable unless it gets a rework, no matter if it gets nerfed or not in the next patch.

Wow! You predicted Update 13 changes pretty well!!

Lucky28

These current changes to proc sets being unable to crit are just gonna facilitate the tank meta. because it takes out the option of using damage procs like Skoria etc instead people are just gonna go Bloodspawn, pirate skeleton etc. it's a shame, just diminishing choices.

idk

@austinwalter87ub17_ESO

I agree that your thinking is going in the right direction. However, the issue is that a player can effectively gear for great survival ansnstull do good damage.

That's the issue. If proc sets had a base and if scaled off our damage stats that would hinder the damage heavy armor with added survivability stats vs damage stats.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@austinwalter87ub17_ESO

I agree that your thinking is going in the right direction. However, the issue is that a player can effectively gear for great survival ansnstull do good damage.

That's the issue. If proc sets had a base and if scaled off our damage stats that would hinder the damage heavy armor with added survivability stats vs damage stats.

Being able to gear somewhat tanky and still maintain good burst is a problem separate from the insane burst as a whole. PVP is always more fun when the fights are challenging. It's not challenging if people can drop you in 2 seconds

willlienellson

First you say you don't like blanket nerfs and then you call for a global cooldown?

God forbid Bahrahas curse and some slow @ss dot like Vicecanon proc at the same time.

God forbid! So OP. *rolls eyes*

Just because your solution is "different" doesn't mean it's not guilty of exactly the same thing you are complaining about.