Proc Sets changes are Misdiagnosed - This is what needs to happen

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

A popular opinion is that heavy armor is too strong. Armor in general doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. Some of the well known ESO Celebs like FENGRUSH might disagree with me on that, but I can intellectually defend this statement. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets.

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers. People will figure this out then everyone will make very tanky characters. Which is what people are doing more and more already. And that's definitely not all! They build these tanky characters with proc sets in order to give them both survivability and good reliable damage.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further. You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit. Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper Widowmaker, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling. Offensive proc sets currently are a main source of both burst and DPS. They should compliment your DPS not become the major source of it.

For example. There is a heavy armor set called "The Way of Fire" which drops in Craglorn/Skyreach Catacombs. It has a 20% chance to proc for 4000 flame damage. That set is actually a good set and would be about the ideal benchmark for how high the damage of a proc set can be. Compare that to things like Velidreths and Selenes hitting for over 12k without a crit. That's the core issue. The ceiling of the really high DPS proc sets needs a drastic reduction in order to more closely equalize the proc sets to the more average ones. Do that then add a cool down to prevent proc stacking, and you're golden.

As for Light Armor Defensive Proc sets? They need buffs! The defensive light armor proc sets are not substantial enough to be of any substantial value in PVP and really not even in PVE. You're better off running Heavy armor over a Light Armor defensive proc set as a Magicka user. There is some sets which are exceptions. Desert Rose is an exception of a great defensive light armor proc set.

Let me clarify this again. YOU CANNOT DO BLANKET NERFS/BUFFS. You MUST target the problematic sets INDIVIDUALLY. Failing to do this will result in nerfing all the sets which already underperform. Especially the defensive proc sets which heal. They can't crit heal anymore. So why bother using them? There was very little incentive to using the healing proc sets anyway. Now there is absolutely 0 reason to use them. Blanket nerfing reduces all sets, so the sets which are problematic will remain at the top and the useless will remain useless. Your change does nothing to equalize the ceiling between weak and strong proc sets. It will achieve a reduction in some burst damage, but not enough to matter due to proc stacking.

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1) Lower the extremely high burst/dps offensive proc sets (target these sets individually) to bring them closer in line with the lesser desirable ones (by reducing their base damage). This will resolve a lot of issues in Cyrodil as well as making gear variety greater as a whole.

2) Make it impossible for proc sets to simultaneously proc at the exact same time. The way it is now is simply too much burst, even with the crit removal changes. The only exception is if you're a tank. And if everyone has to play a tank to prevent their death from proc sets by themselves that doesn't make PVP very fun does it?

3) Reverse the crit removal changes. Allow them to still crit to ensure they aren't slapped too hard. Also, to prevent undesirable sets from getting nerfed as a consequence of the poor choice.

4) Buff many of the Light Armor defensive proc sets to make them more desirable and effective in survivability. This way, people will have greater incentive to still use things besides Heavy armor in Cyrodil.

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You're a multi-million dollar company. Act like it. The current approach is lazy as well as counter-productive.That laziness will create even farther issues which i have outlined (yes that is what blanket nerfs are -- laziness) I suggest you pull in some over-time at the office, pack a bag with some extra clothes so you can sleep at the office, and really crack down on the glaring issues. Instead of skirting around the issue and misdiagnosing the issues entirely.

Draxys

I agree 100%, but I honestly don't expect them to do what's best for the game. They seem to love crutch sets, and I'm guessing the majority of their player base (most likely people who quest and know nothing of end game balance) does as well.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Draxys wrote: »

I agree 100%, but I honestly don't expect them to do what's best for the game. They seem to love crutch sets, and I'm guessing the majority of their player base (most likely people who quest and know nothing of end game balance) does as well.

People will always use what is the most effective. Which is why some of the sets need to be drastically toned down and greater equalized. People are aware of which sets, and so are the Developers.

Dovahmiim

The most powerful meta currently is heavy armour proc set users... which is precisely why removing crit chance for procs makes proc sets even more powerful for heavy than other armour types that recieve bonuses to crit. The issue atm is that players are able to be extremely tanky, while dishing out stupid high damage from procs alone. Well, that and stamina proc burst damage in general, but the fix to both of these is the same. NO blanket nerfs, take the time to individually reevaluate many of the proc sets out there, both in their damage and cooldowns (looking at you tremorscale >.>).

agegarton

Blimey, a well written and though-provoking forum post. I've got to stop waking up in the Twilight Zone !!

I'm not against the original crit-nerf plan per se, but this is the REAL solution. I hope someone pays attention, if only to show that really good feedback on the forums isn't just binned and ignored.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please please please......

silky_soft

TLDR:
Remove crit changes.
Introduce proc gcd.

Betheny

Just throwing this out there, what if proc sets had different effects depending on the weight of the armour, so that a set with procs on light armour might do damage or make a shield or something but on heavy armour that proc would instead buff tanking capability and not damage, and so on for medium as well?

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

silky_soft wrote: »

TLDR:
Remove crit changes.
Introduce proc gcd.

TLDR is why you aren't in charge of balance.

It requires more than just those 2 changes.

Certain sets simply have to high of a base damage value.

Saint_Bud

Sharpend is to strong, thats why people use heavy armour.

Rohamad_Ali

This is what needs to happen .

Kaghei

i definitely agree with buffing light armour defensive sets.

Biro123

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

2) Make it impossible for proc sets to simultaneously proc at the exact same time. The way it is now is simply too much burst, even with the crit removal changes. The only exception is if you're a tank. And if everyone has to play a tank to prevent their death from proc sets by themselves that doesn't make PVP very fun does it?

People keep saying this, but I can't see how this is doable without a system that people will complain about.. How would it work, really....?

Lets say you have 3 proc sets (yes actual values are wrong but it soesn't matter for the example) - viper to proc 6k dmg every 4 seconds, Selene to have a 10% chance to 12k every 10 seconds, and something that procs a heal when you get below 30% health... And lets say your change allows no procs within 2 seconds of each other...

Ok, you start the fight and hit someone.. viper procs, does dmg.. 4 seconds later it procs again.., and selene procs too - but no, you can't do both together... which shall take effect? lets say it rolls a dice and decided viper.. ok, so next attack weave , viper procs from the light attack, a split second later, selene procs from the ability - oo no, not allowed.. next weave, selene tries again, nope within 2 seconds... couple of seconds later, viper procs again, then your health suddenly drops below 30% and you want that life-sving heal proc.. oo nononono, can't have that - viper just procced.. you die..

So whole fight, because of the change, 2 out of the three procced sets were prevented from going off at all. That WILL make players complain, they won't understand what's going on, and why their big-hitting selene isn't working, why the heal proc didn't go off.. and will complain. I know its a contrived example.. but that kind of thing would happen.

You can ONLY have cooldowns on abilities that players have direct control of. It just doesn't work otherwise.

I do think that the weaker/stronger proc sets need balancing though..

RoyJade

Instead of a limiter on multi-proc, ZOS can also make most of the high-burst set a dot instead. The average damage will not change, but the burst component will be nerfed even more than with a global cooldown. Viper, velindreth and widowaker especially , some other also really need to apply a dot instead of doing their absurd damage in one hit.

J2JMC

Biro123 wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

2) Make it impossible for proc sets to simultaneously proc at the exact same time. The way it is now is simply too much burst, even with the crit removal changes. The only exception is if you're a tank. And if everyone has to play a tank to prevent their death from proc sets by themselves that doesn't make PVP very fun does it?

People keep saying this, but I can't see how this is doable without a system that people will complain about.. How would it work, really....?

Lets say you have 3 proc sets (yes actual values are wrong but it soesn't matter for the example) - viper to proc 6k dmg every 4 seconds, Selene to have a 10% chance to 12k every 10 seconds, and something that procs a heal when you get below 30% health... And lets say your change allows no procs within 2 seconds of each other...

Ok, you start the fight and hit someone.. viper procs, does dmg.. 4 seconds later it procs again.., and selene procs too - but no, you can't do both together... which shall take effect? lets say it rolls a dice and decided viper.. ok, so next attack weave , viper procs from the light attack, a split second later, selene procs from the ability - oo no, not allowed.. next weave, selene tries again, nope within 2 seconds... couple of seconds later, viper procs again, then your health suddenly drops below 30% and you want that life-sving heal proc.. oo nononono, can't have that - viper just procced.. you die..

So whole fight, because of the change, 2 out of the three procced sets were prevented from going off at all. That WILL make players complain, they won't understand what's going on, and why their big-hitting selene isn't working, why the heal proc didn't go off.. and will complain. I know its a contrived example.. but that kind of thing would happen.

You can ONLY have cooldowns on abilities that players have direct control of. It just doesn't work otherwise.

I do think that the weaker/stronger proc sets need balancing though..

The best way to balance proc sets would be to require specific actions to set them off instead of random chance on damage. That way skilled players could perform specific actions and actually time their burst to kill an oponnent quickly. ZOS won't do this though because a change like this would have a high chance of making certain sets difficult to use with common set ups and people would complain about not being able to play as they want.

STEVIL

I disagree.

One global change would "fix" what is broken with recap sets.

Not to say there aren't recap sets that dont suck but there are sucky sets of all types.

but to "fix" recap sets, just make the damage they do scale off character stats - specifically weapon/spel damage.

The issue with the hvy armor tanky builds iirc is that someone can run tons of health and defensive etc, skip all the damage related buffs of light/heavy and STILL gain sufficient burst on a lucky set-burst to take out enemies.

This is made possible cuz those set damage just happen as a result of material and level of the set.

if those procs hit like mid-tier damage when used with a hvy armor mostly health low damage build, it would become a fine idea for " a tank with a little extra dps" for groups and what not but no longer be the PC killer burst monsters folks seem to portray them as.

PETS damage scales off the character stats, why not the freakin' daedroths and dunerippers from the gear?


Imagine it as the gear is providing the "energy" for the damage, so instead of magica+spelldam or stamina+wpndam to get total yields its Cp*Qual + spelldam/wpndam for the sets - replacing your "maxmag" with the gear's "qual-cp".

Viper hits for what, 7k, now at gold-160?

What if that were changed to 2500 + 1xWpnDam at gold-160 or some other number scheme? The 2500 would vary by gear quality and level.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The most powerful meta currently is heavy armour proc set users... which is precisely why removing crit chance for procs makes proc sets even more powerful for heavy than other armour types that recieve bonuses to crit. The issue atm is that players are able to be extremely tanky, while dishing out stupid high damage from procs alone. Well, that and stamina proc burst damage in general, but the fix to both of these is the same. NO blanket nerfs, take the time to individually reevaluate many of the proc sets out there, both in their damage and cooldowns (looking at you tremorscale >.>).

It goes both ways. Everyone is rocking heavy to survive and finding ways to boost their damage.

WhiteMage

I see people saying no blanket nerfs like it's become a trend recently, but what do you mean by no blanket nerfs? Is no crits on proc set damage a blanket nerf? What makes this blanket nerf bad? Would the removal of CP be a blanket nerf, and would that make it bad?

Here's what I think people mean to convey: don't merely look at something, see it is unbalanced, and make a 1-size-fits-all fix to it when not everything is the same size, so to speak. Different sets and builds offend differently and to varying degrees, and so a blanket nerf would not be helpful, it would preserve the imbalance, but everything would be in a weaker state, perhaps so you notice it less. A blanket nerf to everyone who, on the other hand, use the exact same system, like stat caps, attribute points, or CP points, can be nerfed in this way. Now, yes, this does preserve the imbalances in much that same way as the previous example, one could argue, and truth be told it is no substitute for targeted nerfs, but things get really out of hand when you can stack them.

Stacking. Stacking is probably the biggest issue in any imbalanced system. That is where the problem is and that is where it needs to be fixed, and preventing crits on a proc set (which really should have been the case from the start) does not affect stacking proc sets.

Blanket nerfs are for reducing power creep, which NEEDS TO BE DONE, but folks are right when they say a blanket nerf will not fix a problem with stacking.

mtwiggz

Proc set damage needs to be reduced. Thats the fix.

You're welcome ZoS.

LorDrek

Repair impenetrable trait. That is fix.

silky_soft

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

TLDR:
Remove crit changes.
Introduce proc gcd.

TLDR is why you aren't in charge of balance.

It requires more than just those 2 changes.

Certain sets simply have to high of a base damage value.

Nope.

Damage is fine. Single target always higher then aoe. Learn to defend yourself. You want wet noodle fight, go play no cp.

All damage procs need to share same cool down. Just like poisons in this patch.

People wear heavy because it's op. You can survive and dps better in pvp. Block cost is op, it's way too low. They nerfed dodge, streak, but forgot consecutive block.

Mojmir

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

This is what needs to happen .

And add salt for slip resistance

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

WhiteMage wrote: »

I see people saying no blanket nerfs like it's become a trend recently, but what do you mean by no blanket nerfs? Is no crits on proc set damage a blanket nerf? What makes this blanket nerf bad? Would the removal of CP be a blanket nerf, and would that make it bad?

Here's what I think people mean to convey: don't merely look at something, see it is unbalanced, and make a 1-size-fits-all fix to it when not everything is the same size, so to speak. Different sets and builds offend differently and to varying degrees, and so a blanket nerf would not be helpful, it would preserve the imbalance, but everything would be in a weaker state, perhaps so you notice it less. A blanket nerf to everyone who, on the other hand, use the exact same system, like stat caps, attribute points, or CP points, can be nerfed in this way. Now, yes, this does preserve the imbalances in much that same way as the previous example, one could argue, and truth be told it is no substitute for targeted nerfs, but things get really out of hand when you can stack them.

Stacking. Stacking is probably the biggest issue in any imbalanced system. That is where the problem is and that is where it needs to be fixed, and preventing crits on a proc set (which really should have been the case from the start) does not affect stacking proc sets.

Blanket nerfs are for reducing power creep, which NEEDS TO BE DONE, but folks are right when they say a blanket nerf will not fix a problem with stacking.

I have already addressed why proc set blanket nerfs are bad.

silky_soft wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

TLDR:
Remove crit changes.
Introduce proc gcd.

TLDR is why you aren't in charge of balance.

It requires more than just those 2 changes.

Certain sets simply have to high of a base damage value.

Nope.

Damage is fine. Single target always higher then aoe. Learn to defend yourself. You want wet noodle fight, go play no cp.

All damage procs need to share same cool down. Just like poisons in this patch.

People wear heavy because it's op. You can survive and dps better in pvp. Block cost is op, it's way too low. They nerfed dodge, streak, but forgot consecutive block.

Anyone who says damage is fine has no idea what they're talking about. More than likely they play a gankblade which pops on top of light armor users and they instantly die. I imagine that is what you do and you've hate to lose that crutch.

People wear heavy because it's the greatest survivability against proc sets. If you're running light armor, 90% of the time you're an easy and free kill for anyone running the high burst/dps proc sets. So people started running heavy armor even on caster and Magicka builds.

I run black rose/desert rose on my Templar healer because instantly dying to selene, veledreth, red mountain, viper, and widow maker isn't very fun.

saten

My Suggestion for Proc Sets:
Every Proc set will do a DoT instead of BURST DAMAGE while in Cyrodil.

Regarding heavy Armor:
A certain Passive will not Work in Cyrodil.

What does our PvP Veterans think of this? Should also fairly easy to code.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

saten wrote: »

My Suggestion for Proc Sets:
Every Proc set will do a DoT instead of BURST DAMAGE while in Cyrodil.

Regarding heavy Armor:
A certain Passive will not Work in Cyrodil.

What does our PvP Veterans think of this? Should also fairly easy to code.

Disagree with disabling passive to heavy armor in Cyrodil.

As I stated in my OP.

The rampant usage of heavy armor is a symptom of the cause and not the cause itself.

Proc sets are too strong. So people gravitate towards heavy armor for survivability as well as combining proc sets with heavy armor to blend high dps armored survivability.


ALL of this is the result of proc sets being so potent. Should have never been launched being so potent.

WhiteMage

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

I see people saying no blanket nerfs like it's become a trend recently, but what do you mean by no blanket nerfs? Is no crits on proc set damage a blanket nerf? What makes this blanket nerf bad? Would the removal of CP be a blanket nerf, and would that make it bad?

Here's what I think people mean to convey: don't merely look at something, see it is unbalanced, and make a 1-size-fits-all fix to it when not everything is the same size, so to speak. Different sets and builds offend differently and to varying degrees, and so a blanket nerf would not be helpful, it would preserve the imbalance, but everything would be in a weaker state, perhaps so you notice it less. A blanket nerf to everyone who, on the other hand, use the exact same system, like stat caps, attribute points, or CP points, can be nerfed in this way. Now, yes, this does preserve the imbalances in much that same way as the previous example, one could argue, and truth be told it is no substitute for targeted nerfs, but things get really out of hand when you can stack them.

Stacking. Stacking is probably the biggest issue in any imbalanced system. That is where the problem is and that is where it needs to be fixed, and preventing crits on a proc set (which really should have been the case from the start) does not affect stacking proc sets.

Blanket nerfs are for reducing power creep, which NEEDS TO BE DONE, but folks are right when they say a blanket nerf will not fix a problem with stacking.

I have already addressed why proc set blanket nerfs are bad.

I'm just a talking about aversion to blanket nerfs for the sake of avoiding blanket nerfs. I saw the bold and everything else became TL;DR at that point. Anything else I don't necessarily agree or disagree with, because I was speaking generally anyway.

Derra

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

tplink3r1

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

Derra

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

What would be the purpose of tanks in pvp?

Sorry but i really think you misinterpret this. Not dying has been the go to meta way back in 1.4 and 1.5 of the game before the CP system even got introduced (it became somewhat impossible in 1.6 and 1.7 before orsinium).

It´s not proccsets causing the heavy armor meta. It´s the ability to not die and wait for friends that is so appealing for players. Heavy compliments this best at the moment.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thieves guild patch is what started the heavy armor meta.
There were no proccsets back then.

Everyone was running heavy blackrose or reactive back then already. It was terrible without proccsets. It´s heavy armor that´s the problem not proccsets.

Black Rose/Reactive will always be popular due their bonuses. Black Rose especially due to the missing sustain it provides for heavy users.

Reactive nor Black Rose I consider imbalanced. It's meant to make tanks capable of surviving in the thick of big battles. Black Rose does this as well. Those two sets have given tanks a purpose in PVP.

When proc sets came out, the desire for these sets magnified tenfold. Because they became necessary to survive for everyone, and not just tanks. So the introduction of proc sets is still what caused the heavy armor meta.

Addressing proc sets will make it so people don't feel forced to run heavy on every build, and on every character.

What would be the purpose of tanks in pvp?

Sorry but i really think you misinterpret this. Not dying has been the go to meta way back in 1.4 and 1.5 of the game before the CP system even got introduced (it became somewhat impossible in 1.6 and 1.7 before orsinium).

It´s not proccsets causing the heavy armor meta. It´s the ability to not die and wait for friends that is so appealing for players. Heavy compliments this best at the moment.

Heavy armor is intended to make it so you can't die nearly as easily. That is how it should be. The armor is heavy for a reason. The problem now is that due to all these new proccsets it's possible to make both very tanky and high damage builds simultaneously.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Heavy armor already gives less damage and less sustain, at this point people just want heavy armor to be useless again.

That seems to be the case doesn't it? People are angry because the armor designed to provide the most defense and survivability, actually does it...lol.