Strife Nerf. Please Reconsider

mr_wazzabi

As we all know, strife is being nerfed with a 38% cost increase.

I know many people here have mentioned an 8% damage buff with destro staff, which they say will justify the cost increase.

But not everyone will use the destro staff. Magicka based nb tanks rely on strife to keep their health up. Such a huge cost increase will kill their build.

It'll be a similar story with dw magicka dps.

As many have pointed out, forcr siphon from destro staff already does more damage than strife. Strife heals, along with ultimate gain, which is great, but such a large cost increase is overkill.

If you plan to increase the cost, increase the damage with it, or the heal. Otherwise, drop the nerf altogether and leave strife alone.

If enough of us are vocal, it is possible to revert the changes.

Remember when bone shield was supposed to scale off stamina? Enough people complained about it and ZOS bent and reverted bone shield back to its original form to scale off health.

mr_wazzabi

Is the NB community letting the devs run over our builds? Come on!

We need to be more vocal or our class will continue to suffer.

Mataata

I dunno. Strife's healing lasts long enough that I think all it really means is that you can't spam it as much, and it didn't really do that much damage to begin with.

usmcjdking

I don't think there is anything wrong with the strife nerf TBH. The skill was a free spammable when weaved making sustain quite moot on a magblade. It nerfs PVP more than PVE by a large margin and considering magblades are pretty strong in PVP, it makes sense.

However, the nerf to shade and failure to buff underperforming skills like twisting (which does decent damage over it's duration, but pittance compared to say, engulfing flames) , reaper's mark, the very lackluster execute in impale, double shades, manifestation of terror and a host of other skills leaves magblade in a very undesirable spot.

Magblade needs a reliable source of major berserk to be competitive at this point. Reapers Mark giving major berserk for 8 seconds would honestly solve a lot of the classes issues immediately.

Rex-Umbra

It's the only skill NB tank can use with Sword and Board every thing else is too expensive and now NB tanks are being forced to use a frost staff.

Mx13

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

But not everyone will use the destro staff. Magicka based nb tanks rely on strife to keep their health up. Such a huge cost increase will kill their build.

Wut?

Have you actually tested the changes on PTS?
On my sapt tank 350 extra magicka cost for funnel health didnt hit my sustain at all, also with the new magickasteal(?) debuff my sustain probably will be better, havent tested it yet tho.

Rex-Umbra

What NB skill has magickasteal debuff?

Mx13

Nightblades dont have that debuff on any skill but it comes from Elemental Drain(destro), Siphon Spirit(resto) or Radiant Aura(templar).

Just realized that i also have 13 extra cp to allocate on cost reduction :P

Rohamad_Ali

/Support

Also we need a buff on Magblade abilities not nerfs .

RoyJade

This nerf is good, but strife need an other change.
One possible change would be to remove the healing component, the morph who heal two target would remain unchanged (cost included) or can get the other morph effect, and the other morph should have a great damage increase to make it competitive for end game dps.

mr_wazzabi

RoyJade wrote: »

This nerf is good, but strife need an other change.
One possible change would be to remove the healing component, the morph who heal two target would remain unchanged (cost included) or can get the other morph effect, and the other morph should have a great damage increase to make it competitive for end game dps.

Why is it good? It never hurt anyone in pvp and is weaker than force siphon for pve. There's no reason for the nerf as nobody asked for it.

There are builds that don't use staves that will suffer from this nerf, mainly nb magetanks. It will kill diversity as that build may not exist anymore.

I run a dw magicka nb dps build that I like very much, and this nerf will really hurt. If zos wants to pigeonhole every magicka player into using a staff then they're going against the "play how you want" mantra they advertised.

RoyJade

It's a good nerf because the damage/cost ratio was awfully high (and still is). More, it have great secondary effect (range and heal, plus passives).
I've said that the change is good but won't be if there are no other changes (at least for tank). We need a pure support morph and a pure damage one, and the pure support may gain a cost reduction as his effect.

Izaki

What we really need is an auto refresh on firing the Spectral Bow proc on Merciless Resolve and Relentless Focus. This would make both magicka NBs and stamina NBs stronger in PvE, as well as giving a huge buff to magicka NBs in PvP.

Strife is fine even with the nerf. The cost increase isn't nearly as problematic as you think because the base cost was ridiculously low. It used to cost under 900 magicka with 100 points into Magician (if you haven't been doing this, you were doing it wrong). Now it costs just over 1300. I can't see that impacting your sustain. It still costs less than Force Pulse. It heals you, gives you 8% more magicka, 3% healing done and it gives you ultimate. I fail to see how a cost increase for an ability that activates all passives and that has a healing component isn't justified. Sustain was meant to be tougher in this patch.

Izaki

Btw Force Siphon is a resto staff ability that gives magickasteal. I think you meant Force Pulse or Crushing Shock. Force Pulse only does more damage in a trial situation with a magicka DK who applies Engulfing Flames. Other than that, Strife is only a little behind in terms of raw damage. In Hard Mode trials, mageblades will always be asked to use Funnel Health. A slight damage loss in exchange for huge utility and support.

Also forgot to mention in my previous post: Twisting Path should be fixed and allowed to scale with Thaumaturge => big damage increase and helps mage NBs DPS in PvE. Power Extraction (2 effects: damage, major brutality) needs a serious buff to add an extra effect, much like Sap Essence (4 effects in one ability: damage, heal, major sorcerery, major brutality)

Auricle

Sometimes I feel like the people who main magblades must be less confrontational and more mellow than people who main other classes, because even though NBs aren't really in the best place, we usually don't rage on the forums about it (much). The strife issue is real though, if only because I don't get it. Rich posted his reasoning behind a bunch of changes in another thread, but never mentioned why they upped the cost on Strife. I was hoping for some clarification...

I would be totally fine with this move if these changes were made:

1. Merciless Resolve auto-renewed or auto-fired (something to make the rotation a bit less clunky, which I believe was his reasoning for changing the other classes' skills)

2. Twisting Path scaled with the Thaumaturge champion skill (which, honestly, why doesn't it already?)


I don't think that's a lot to ask, honestly. Seems pretty reasonable. Rich, Wrobel, c'mon guys, hear us out.

Izaki

@ZOS_RichLambert Hey didn't you say you guys wanted to simplify rotations? Well Grim Focus morphs should both renew the effect once you fire the spectral bow! That would not only simplify things, but also solve the lack of DPS from both stamina and magicka nightblades in PvE. And are you guys planning on fixing Twisting Path any time soon? Thanks!

SJD_Phoenix

I'm not on pts as I'm a console scrub but I worked out on my magblade last night that even when the cost increases crushing shock will still cost around 500 more magicka than my swallow soul, so I'm not particularly bothered as sustaining a magblade in pve is a piece of cake.

As for a tank, surely you only reapply it once every 8 seconds as you're only doing it for the heal. If it's costing you another 300 or so every 8 seconds, and that's going to ruin your sustain, I've got some bad news for you. Your sustain wasn't good enough to begin with.

Brrrofski

usmcjdking wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with the strife nerf TBH. The skill was a free spammable when weaved making sustain quite moot on a magblade. It nerfs PVP more than PVE by a large margin and considering magblades are pretty strong in PVP, it makes sense.

However, the nerf to shade and failure to buff underperforming skills like twisting (which does decent damage over it's duration, but pittance compared to say, engulfing flames) , reaper's mark, the very lackluster execute in impale, double shades, manifestation of terror and a host of other skills leaves magblade in a very undesirable spot.

Magblade needs a reliable source of major berserk to be competitive at this point. Reapers Mark giving major berserk for 8 seconds would honestly solve a lot of the classes issues immediately.

Magblades are strong in PvP?

Be honest, you don't PvP do you?

AzuraKin

Mataata wrote: »

I dunno. Strife's healing lasts long enough that I think all it really means is that you can't spam it as much, and it didn't really do that much damage to begin with.

all i gonna say is, if i lose my balanced sustainability on my nb's it will just make me all the more unlikely to keep playing this game once camelot unchained comes out.

mr_wazzabi

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What we really need is an auto refresh on firing the Spectral Bow proc on Merciless Resolve and Relentless Focus. This would make both magicka NBs and stamina NBs stronger in PvE, as well as giving a huge buff to magicka NBs in PvP.

Strife is fine even with the nerf. The cost increase isn't nearly as problematic as you think because the base cost was ridiculously low. It used to cost under 900 magicka with 100 points into Magician (if you haven't been doing this, you were doing it wrong). Now it costs just over 1300. I can't see that impacting your sustain. It still costs less than Force Pulse. It heals you, gives you 8% more magicka, 3% healing done and it gives you ultimate. I fail to see how a cost increase for an ability that activates all passives and that has a healing component isn't justified. Sustain was meant to be tougher in this patch.

For nb tanks with low sustain it could be a problem.

mr_wazzabi

If enough of us are vocal, it is possible to revert the changes.

Remember when bone shield was supposed to scale off stamina? Enough people complained about it and ZOS bent and reverted bone shield back to its original form to scale off health.

mr_wazzabi

Where my mageblades at?

mtwiggz

Strife needed a damage increase, not a cost increase.

Maybe @Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert confused the two. It's the only logical explanation for this beyond ignorant change.

RoyJade

mtwiggz wrote: »

Strife needed a damage increase, not a cost increase.

It need both for at least one morph. It already have a really low cost for it damage, and it need a damage increase, so damage + cost increase would be good.

mr_wazzabi

RoyJade wrote: »

mtwiggz wrote: »

Strife needed a damage increase, not a cost increase.

It need both for at least one morph. It already have a really low cost for it damage, and it need a damage increase, so damage + cost increase would be good.

But a cost increase with NOTHING as it is on pts is a no go

RoyJade

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

mtwiggz wrote: »

Strife needed a damage increase, not a cost increase.

It need both for at least one morph. It already have a really low cost for it damage, and it need a damage increase, so damage + cost increase would be good.

But a cost increase with NOTHING as it is on pts is a no go

Well, if we are looking about the cost/damage ratio, it have some sense. But changing that when magblade does pretty low damage is just… well, you know what I'm thinking.
I just don't want a damage increase without this cost increase. Strife need both (at least one "damage" morph, to keep tank safe). And if it got a damage increase, perhaps the heal would need to be toned down (still only for the "damage" morph).

bubbygink

Many on forums have pointed out that strife is the cheapest spammable in the game but the thing is that it is also the weakest. Its cheap cost was the one thing that made it feasible. Because of the cheap cost and magblade's siphoning attacks we could stack more into damage stats to actually make strife do moderate damage in PVP. If we are forced to stack more into recovery then strife will hit like a wet doodle.

If I am going to have to stack more into recovery anyway it may actually makes sense to go with force pulse. It has so many advantages:
1. In many cases, more damage (depends on racial passives which can boost it and enemy resistance since destro abilities ignore 10%).
2. Interrupts (or if you take the other morph it is certainly more damage than funnel)
3. Can apply status effects
4. Can proc many things at a 3x rate (makes things like the red mountain build feasible and effective)
5. is MUCH easier to weave with
6. And with the new changes it is unreflectable which is big because magicka DKs are a magblade worst enemy

Yes you get the heal with funnel and crushing shock is still substantially more expensive but if the nearly 40% increase in cost stands many may switch over to force pulse for PVP (which is already used much more than funnel in PVE if I am not mistaken). So while in a vacuum the the cost increase might make sense (since it was the cheapest spammable), in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't because the skill is so weak and received no corresponding buff (in fact, magblades received no buffs at all) and because there is a non-class alternative that is starting to look better.

usmcjdking

Brrrofski wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with the strife nerf TBH. The skill was a free spammable when weaved making sustain quite moot on a magblade. It nerfs PVP more than PVE by a large margin and considering magblades are pretty strong in PVP, it makes sense.

However, the nerf to shade and failure to buff underperforming skills like twisting (which does decent damage over it's duration, but pittance compared to say, engulfing flames) , reaper's mark, the very lackluster execute in impale, double shades, manifestation of terror and a host of other skills leaves magblade in a very undesirable spot.

Magblade needs a reliable source of major berserk to be competitive at this point. Reapers Mark giving major berserk for 8 seconds would honestly solve a lot of the classes issues immediately.

Magblades are strong in PvP?

Be honest, you don't PvP do you?

Yes they are.

If you stepped out of a 20 man ballgroup for more than 30 seconds you might have an opportunity to actually fight a decent one.

Lucky28

RoyJade wrote: »

It's a good nerf because the damage/cost ratio was awfully high (and still is). More, it have great secondary effect (range and heal, plus passives).
I've said that the change is good but won't be if there are no other changes (at least for tank). We need a pure support morph and a pure damage one, and the pure support may gain a cost reduction as his effect.

no it's not. if that nerf goes though strife is coming off my bar for force pulse. it's not worth it, i can get the HOT from something else if i need.

and force pulse is a better skill now anyways. higher damage with that ability. is going to make strife obsolete

mr_wazzabi

Lucky28 wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

It's a good nerf because the damage/cost ratio was awfully high (and still is). More, it have great secondary effect (range and heal, plus passives).
I've said that the change is good but won't be if there are no other changes (at least for tank). We need a pure support morph and a pure damage one, and the pure support may gain a cost reduction as his effect.

no it's not. if that nerf goes though strife is coming off my bar for force pulse. it's not worth it, i can get the HOT from something else if i need.

and force pulse is a better skill now anyways. higher damage with that ability. is going to make strife obsolete

This. It will join the long list of dead unused skills

code65536

I'm worried about this nerf for my saptank and for vMA runs, but I'd be okay with it if magblades got a bit of a boost elsewhere. At this point, we got nothing, and that makes a little bit salty.

@ZOS_RichLambert said that one of their balancing goals this patch is to simplify rotations. Make Assassin's Will/Scourge refresh on cast. That would help simplify the magblade rotation and make magblades more accessible to more players while at the same time giving magblades a much-needed boost to remain competitive with other classes. Make that change, and I'll go along with the Strife nerf.