Nerf Heavy armour before it is too late (Please add Feedback Thread)

Wizzo91

We can't wait another 3-5 months.

Master_Kas

Doesn't matter. ZOS can.

Wizzo91

Please add a feedback thread on this topic. Heavy armor outperforms so much it is not funny anymore.

Armitas

I think it over performs in respect to stamina and the change to blackrose will help some. Compared to magicka I think light armor just under performs.

Wizzo91

Armitas wrote: »

I think it over performs in respect to stamina and the change to blackrose will help. Compared to magicka I think light armor just under performs.

Black Rose isn't even that great, there are far better options. It is just meta.

Heavy armor generally used atm on anything but a shieldstacking magsorc or stamblade, with some exceptions.

There are two options:

- nerf heavy armour
- buff MA and LA

I'd definitely prefer the latter.

leepalmer95

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I think it over performs in respect to stamina and the change to blackrose will help. Compared to magicka I think light armor just under performs.

Black Rose isn't even that great, there are far better options. It is just meta.

Heavy armor generally used atm on anything but a shieldstacking magsorc or stamblade, with some exceptions.

There are two options:

- nerf heavy armour
- buff MA and LA

I'd definitely prefer the latter.

I'd prefer the former because power creep.

gard

Funny, over the last few days I've earned over 500k ap in Azura's . People wearing heavy armor don't seem to slow me down much.

Why so many tears over heavy armor? It's what you wear if you favor lots of resist.

Wizzo91

gard wrote: »

Funny, over the last few days I've earned over 500k ap in Azura's . People wearing heavy armor don't seem to slow me down much.

Why so many tears over heavy armor? It's what you wear if you favor lots of resist.

You're such a pro.

Heavy armor is what you wear if you want to be best at everything - that is the problem. You can dish out huge amount of damage with high resists.

Armitas

Wizzo91 wrote: »

- nerf heavy armour
- buff MA and LA

I'd definitely prefer the latter.

Me too. At least for MA you could take half of the "weapon type" passives (ex. Twinblade and blunt) off of weapons and put it on medium armor. Stamina's power is highly compact in it's weapons and carries over almost entirely to heavy armor.

I am not sure what needs to happen with LA but like you said the only ones that really shine in it right now are sorcs, and I think that is mainly because of their mine fortress and mobility. I think everyone else is fleeing LA to survive the incredible burst that still exists as well as the defiles rather than because there is a large performance draw from HA. Unfortunately I can't think of any simple buff for it, I think the bonuses are there just not the survival.

Dubhliam

gard wrote: »

Funny, over the last few days I've earned over 500k ap in Azura's . People wearing heavy armor don't seem to slow me down much.

Why so many tears over heavy armor? It's what you wear if you favor lots of resist.

They are playing gank proc builds.
They absolutely wreck any player NOT wearing HA in a matter of seconds.
They cry because Heavy Armor players don't die, and can fight back, in which case they always win.

It's like Scissors complaining why does Rock always beat them.

leepalmer95

gard wrote: »

Funny, over the last few days I've earned over 500k ap in Azura's . People wearing heavy armor don't seem to slow me down much.

Why so many tears over heavy armor? It's what you wear if you favor lots of resist.

asura's.

Xsorus

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

Say that to the 600 regen tanks with more damage than medium builds and better overall sustain.

olsborg

Wizzo91 wrote: »

We can't wait another 3-5 months.

Agreed. Heavy armor is far too strong compared to other armor types, it got damage, it got mitigation, it got sustain. It even has major evasion since those skills arent tied to wearing 5 medium armor pieces.

Id prefer if medium armor and light armor was buffed, but id also like heavy armor to be nerfed. Anythning but leaving it as it is on live atm, its broken.

Wizzo91

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

@Xsorus

Do you even play PVP regularly? I am not talking about PVE here. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, that heavy armor is outperforming LA and MA in PVP. You have all the benefits of heavy armor without losing almost any damage. You can still dish out huge amounts of damage.

Why do you think that everybody (at least the people that know what they are talking about and want to be competitive) but Nightlblades (cloak) and magsorcs (shieldstacking) are wearing heavy armor? Oh ye, many nightlbades and sorcs already switched to heavy because it is so OP.

It is utterly broken at the moment.

nCats

Restricting the use of, say, Shuffle to medium armour wearers would make some coherence (as it is with other skills in the game).

Otherwise I think Xsorus's comment is fine. From yet another perspective, TES series used to be not always well balanced in armour sense, with heavy often being a better choice. I do not see why some of this flavour cannot belong to TESO, with heavy being the preferred choice, and other armours being niché-sorts of things.

I sadly find that most of the moaning crowd have quite sketchy understanding of the balancing questions (that is not to say there is no decently-outlined critique). The whole uproar about the destro-ult and the consequences (even after the buff most considered it useless, and what is now in Cyro?) shows a lot in this regard. Finally, even if we look at the proposed RD-nerf as a result of similar threads, what did that solve?

blur

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

Say that to the 600 regen tanks with more damage than medium builds and better overall sustain.

This is utterly false.

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

@Xsorus

Do you even play PVP regularly? I am not talking about PVE here. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, that heavy armor is outperforming LA and MA in PVP. You have all the benefits of heavy armor without losing almost any damage. You can still dish out huge amounts of damage.

Why do you think that everybody (at least the people that know what they are talking about and want to be competitive) but Nightlblades (cloak) and magsorcs (shieldstacking) are wearing heavy armor? Oh ye, many nightlbades and sorcs already switched to heavy because it is so OP.

It is utterly broken at the moment.

Wrong.
The only thing that made heavy so strong was the ability to use proc sets like Viper, Velidreth, Selene's, and Tremor, etc. Of course every single one of these builds used one of 3 (mainly) sets, Black Rose, Fury, and or Reactive (and sometimes Alch). Now that these sets cannot crit anymore it's hardly a problem.

With the exception of certain tryhard streamers who whined everytime they died in a 1vX and saw a 3k viper in their death recount, the vast majority of complaints is largely hyperbole and monkey see monkey do parroting. Due to the laziness and overall inept minds who can't think for themselves ("Hey *insert twitch allstar here* I see you don't play x class, can you tell me what build to run on x class anyway (because I can't be bothered to figure things out for myself) ad nauseum?") you have narrow-minded builds and self sabotaged pigeonholing with everyone (who is trapped in this cycle) repeating the same tiresome rhetoric.

This type of behavior is nothing new and has been going through a vicious cycle of whining about stuff they don't understand since the game released.


edit:
Yet while whining about heavy armor, it blows my mind that people zerging in groups of 20-70+ get a free pass. Shuffle (a passive I WIN skill, yes, you hit a button and do nothing while you dodge tons of incoming damage that would otherwise destroy you) gets a free pass. Roll dodge spamming gets a free pass. blah blah blah the list of ridiculous crap goes on and on.

You guys just an extra 2 seconds added to CC immunity... you have an addon that stops NB gankers... you can hear people in invis/stealth... you have 100's of ways to counter stealth play... yet this doesn't stop the whining about NBs.

Soon ESO will become SSO.
Soon we will have Safe Space's Online.

Wizzo91

nCats wrote: »

Restricting the use of, say, Shuffle to medium armour wearers would make some coherence (as it is with other skills in the game).

Otherwise I think Xsorus's comment is fine. From yet another perspective, TES series used to be not always well balanced in armour sense, with heavy often being a better choice. I do not see why some of this flavour cannot belong to TESO, with heavy being the preferred choice, and other armours being niché-sorts of things.

I sadly find that most of the moaning crowd have quite sketchy understanding of the balancing questions (that is not to say there is no decently-outlined critique). The whole uproar about the destro-ult and the consequences (even after the buff most considered it useless, and what is now in Cyro?) shows a lot in this regard. Finally, even if we look at the proposed RD-nerf as a result of similar threads, what did that solve?

Obviously another non-pvper commenting... How would you even start comparing singleplayer titles with PVP (multiplayer)? Does not make a lot of sense.

We all know perfect balance is not possible, but stating that two of the three armor types should be reserved for niche builds is horrifically stupid in a MMO.

At least you can try to balance things out. Oh and yea, RD def. needed a nerf.

Wizzo91

blur wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

Say that to the 600 regen tanks with more damage than medium builds and better overall sustain.

This is utterly false.

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

@Xsorus

Do you even play PVP regularly? I am not talking about PVE here. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, that heavy armor is outperforming LA and MA in PVP. You have all the benefits of heavy armor without losing almost any damage. You can still dish out huge amounts of damage.

Why do you think that everybody (at least the people that know what they are talking about and want to be competitive) but Nightlblades (cloak) and magsorcs (shieldstacking) are wearing heavy armor? Oh ye, many nightlbades and sorcs already switched to heavy because it is so OP.

It is utterly broken at the moment.

Wrong.
The only thing that made heavy so strong was the ability to use proc sets like Viper, Velidreth, Selene's, and Tremor, etc. Of course every single one of these builds used one of 3 (mainly) sets, Black Rose, Fury, and or Reactive (and sometimes Alch). Now that these sets cannot crit anymore it's hardly a problem.

With the exception of certain tryhard streamers who whined everytime they died in a 1vX and saw a 3k viper in their death recount, the vast majority of complaints is largely hyperbole and monkey see monkey do parroting. Due to the laziness and overall inept minds who can't think for themselves ("Hey *insert twitch allstar here* I see you don't play x class, can you tell me what build to run on x class anyway (because I can't be bothered to figure things out for myself) ad nauseum?") you have narrow-minded builds and self sabotaged pigeonholing with everyone (who is trapped in this cycle) repeating the same tiresome rhetoric.

This type of behavior is nothing new and has been going through a vicious cycle of whining about stuff they don't understand since the game released.

@blur

I can give you plenty of HA builds that don't rely on any proc set that are ridiculously strong and outperform MA builds in every aspect but mobility (a non issue on stam sorc i.e.) and reduce the damage minimally (but having better sustain and defenses).

Just take a look into Cyrodiil what everybody is wearing.

And BTW I rarely watch streamers and test plenty of sets on my own. I talk to other players in game and discuss different options and opinions. Almost everybody (I talk to )agrees that HA is over-performing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and heavy armor builds usually have a low crit chance, so the change to proc sets won't matter (and everybody in his right mind is wearing impen). You'll see. Nothing will change.

leepalmer95

5x fury
3x agility
msa weps
1x kena
1x veli

As a heavy stam sorc you'll be at like 600 regen and you'll sustain just fine using dark deal.

With fury up and continuous up you'll be looking at 5k wpn dmg and 40k stamina.

While have perfectly fine sustain.

zyk

Heavy armor can't be nerfed because most tanks don't know how to play ESO and can't live without perma-blocking.

This is a game made for ultra-casuals. Their crutches come first.

nCats

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Obviously another non-pvper commenting... How would you even start comparing singleplayer titles with PVP (multiplayer)? Does not make a lot of sense.

We all know perfect balance is not possible, but stating that two of the three armor types should be reserved for niche builds is horrifically stupid in a MMO.

At least you can try to balance things out. Oh and yea, RD def. needed a nerf.

You want to discuss or insult and make unjustified claims?

I came into this game for PVP and have been pvping for quite a while, and dueling out of Cyro after U12. Have some knowledge of how both heavy and med armour work. And honestly sometimes non-dodgable attacks like RD or SA seem at time like a much bigger balance question, than this whole debate.

There are quite a few roleplay systems in existence, including online ones. An adaptation of a TES system to online play may have looked completely different. What we have now is in many ways pandering to the common way of thinking in MMORPG, not thinking out of the box completely.

What I see is that HA has become the generic answer, and LA and MA are more niché-like. I would personally prefer that it would not have been like that. Even more, I would really like to see the ``undaunted-mettle'' idea to be developed much better, with three-type combinations giving something unique. Eventually, I would be even fine with heavy becoming a niché thing.

But what happens is that there is a lot of negative outcry with people arguing between each other and often proposing questionable things (or just nothing but ``nerf''). And what we get (in response or not) is like this nerfed RD --- will it solve much in PVP? Not sure at all. Especially given that now magplars can have better sustain and so that the Radiant Oppression will be firing from maximal values of Magicka, meaning its ``60% more damage'' being realised in full much more often.

nCats

Wizzo91 wrote: »

EDIT: Oh yeah, and heavy armor builds usually have a low crit chance, so the change to proc sets won't matter (and everybody in his right mind is wearing impen). You'll see. Nothing will change.

That is not completely true if you can't really max out your impen (say a non-CP campaign). Problem is, again, those who win from non-crit procs are actually heavy wearers, meds would being hit hard anyway. What is even more appalling are those tremorscalers; at least you can dodge things like Selene or make a Velidreth lover proc their balloons from a distance.

I would cautiously suggest that a decent buff to med should consist of giving even higher dodge chance (say through modifying shuffle skill, or else), even close to that ``improved invisibility'' 50% chance we used to have back in the days of NWN (the DnD mechanics is really different, no comparison though). With some counters, perhaps, but the idea that medium means getting hit less sounds attractive. A unique thing would be an ability/chance to dodge the undodgeable, the attacks like RD or SA. Hence why I think Shuffle needs to be made armour-type-dependent, at least.

A nerf to HA, cautiously again, might be about gapclosers, so that their range was reduced while wearing HA.

But pessimistically, I would expect something very odd and different to happen, if any.

silky_soft

New traits.
7 light: 15/30% damage to shields
7 medium: 15/30% damage to blocking target
7 heavy: provide minor vitality to 5 allies within 12m.

Recalculate block to whole numbers like armor and pen. Don't allow it to go less than 60% initial cost.
Add block cost increase poison.
Wrath no longer works while blocking.
All resource proc sets have 1s icd.

leepalmer95

How to balance heavy:

Half wraith
Make constitution only give your biggest stat back.

That should be enough to stop the aids 600 regen builds.

If not then remove the 8% healing.

Sugaroverdose

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

@Xsorus

Do you even play PVP regularly? I am not talking about PVE here. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, that heavy armor is outperforming LA and MA in PVP. You have all the benefits of heavy armor without losing almost any damage. You can still dish out huge amounts of damage.

Why do you think that everybody (at least the people that know what they are talking about and want to be competitive) but Nightlblades (cloak) and magsorcs (shieldstacking) are wearing heavy armor? Oh ye, many nightlbades and sorcs already switched to heavy because it is so OP.

It is utterly broken at the moment.

Problem is in redguard % based passive, dark deal and couple of proc sets, is it actually armor issue? Nope, but I would prefer wrath passive or reverted back to block cost or converted to CCbreak cost reduction

leepalmer95

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Umm again, what exactly is the problem with Heavy Armor?

Medium Armor is used by pretty much all Gankers, and if you're doing Stamina DPS in PVE guess what you're wearing..Not heavy armor.

Light Armor is used by Magicka NBs/Sorcs while Heavy gets used by Templars/DK's usually..you know the classes that generally have to be up close and personal and even then you still have Medium Armor using Temps/Dk's

So yes there is some tanky ass toons out there..But that is miles better then there being nothing but Medium Armor Gankers and Light armor Magicka NB/Sorcs ....

The armor lines are balanced pretty good right now.

@Xsorus

Do you even play PVP regularly? I am not talking about PVE here. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The fact is, that heavy armor is outperforming LA and MA in PVP. You have all the benefits of heavy armor without losing almost any damage. You can still dish out huge amounts of damage.

Why do you think that everybody (at least the people that know what they are talking about and want to be competitive) but Nightlblades (cloak) and magsorcs (shieldstacking) are wearing heavy armor? Oh ye, many nightlbades and sorcs already switched to heavy because it is so OP.

It is utterly broken at the moment.

Problem is in redguard % based passive, dark deal and couple of proc sets, is it actually armor issue? Nope, but I would prefer wrath passive or reverted back to block cost or converted to CCbreak cost reduction

Even without proc sets heavy hits hard.

If you play pvp you'd notice literally everyone is in heavy.

tplink3r1

Heavy armor is fine.

Xsorus

Did some fool from EU question if I pvp? I pvp heavily right now on a magicka melee nb in light armor, a stamina nb in medium armor, a stam Templar in heavy armor, and a light armor magicka sorc.

If you think everyone is wearing heavy then you clearly aren't paying attention to your surrounding and lack depth in game mechanics to be able to tell what people are running.

This is backed up by the fact they've released numbers on this that show heavy isn't used the most right now. Because it's not good for every type of build. Also anyone who says heavy is useful because of mitigation isn't paying attention to the fact you can ignore most of the heavies mitigation flat out. Heavy biggest mitigation right now is going to be healing received as that stat is super good.

Doctordarkspawn

Bring back Bracing.

I'm a magicka tank who actually makes use of the bonus and I'd rather have bracing back.

Armitas

I think the ultimate cost reduction on light armor may be exactly what it needed to compete with heavy armor as a non sorc.