Should ZOS balance PvE and PvP separately?

rfennell_ESO

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

I get why they want to only balance both at once, it's obviously less time consuming.

However.. if failure is the result (and it mostly has been) they might want to think of diverging abilities with a pve element and a pvp element.

It was done in Everquest 2 for the pvp servers and imo worked quite well.

akl77

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Yes, duh

jediodyn_ESO

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Yes. This is pure common sense.

The point of PvE is to feel like an awesome hero. In PvP the same combat mechanic that make PvE awesome make a player broken. Ridiculous damage burst, crazy survivability, massive empowerment, miraculous escapes... all awesome in PVE but crap in PvP.

SirAndy

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Just add additional logic to Battle Spirit, this isn't rocket surgery ZOS ...

Hyperion616

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Pve and Pvp should both be balanced separately, if not you run in to issues where changes made in one area end up effecting the other area negatively.

Uryel

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Kadoin wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

You'll still get nerfed in both and see overbuffing in both. All such a change will do is create more barriers between PvP and PvE. The funny part is that people seem to think that PvP and PvE builds don't suffer from the same brokeness, yet PvP is what helps you find exactly what kind of broken builds to use in PvE.

The tank build I use in PvE when parties suck too much to use the meta one is the same one I use in PvP.
The heal build I use in PvE when parties suck too much to use the meta one is the same one I use in PvP.
The DPS build I use in PvE for solo content like vMA is the same, hybridized one I use in PvP (yeah, I actually did that ).

The reality of it is that something that is broken in one place is almost always broken in another (like infiniblocking before it was nerfed, infinite mag builds with no need to heavy attack + infinite stam through passives or skills that exchange it & tanking before nerfs, etc.). Just because a majority of the player base refuses to test or actually create their own build and exploit these things does not mean it isn't a problem and should be overlooked by the dev team.

Your whole post is a perfect expression of what is wrong in this game, community, or MMO in general.

It would create more barriers ? By all means, please, create them ! I would rather not see my Bosmer lose her stealth because some sore loser whiners comlained about snipe builds. I sould rather not suffer from yet another "nerf nightblade" thing bacuse yet another idiot doesn't use any utility to counter a mere 3 second stealth skill.

Parties are stupid if they don't use the meta ? The word "meta" itself is stupid and improperly used, as "meta" means "above" or "encompassing". Metamagic would be the magic that improves magic, metacognition would be how one thinks about how they think. "Meta" alone is meaningless. It has one single use : spot jerks. Anyone who says "use meta or you're stupid" is someone I'd rather never play with. That kind of bulldung is the best way to kill creativity in games.

If something is broken in one place, it's broken in the other ? OK, I may agree to it, provided that you mean "not functional". However, something can be perfectly functional in one place, and entirely useless in another. Like, stealth detection, entirely useless in PvE. Stealth was useful, stealth detection is a mess. And if by "broken" you mean "OP" or "doesn't perform as I expected", then I fully disagree. PvP is a game of rock, paper, scissors, so you're always supposed to be the counter to something, and something is alwasy supposed to be the counter to you. "Nerf this" usually means "i don't want no counter, I just want to win". Sadly, the dev teams listens to that.

And pretty please, don't use in the same post "they are stupid if they don't use the meta" and "a majority of player base refuse to create their own build". Contradicting yourself isn't very wise.

Someone's mad their character got nerfed and wants to bait Mods! Help! I'm being baited again!

I'm not mad my haracter got nerfed, I am angry that after 4+ years, my character got broken. I created a Bosmer specifically for stealth, as in every Elder Scroll games prior to that one. And after 4 + years, dev suddenly say "yeah, let's remove that". For no other reason that sore losers got to whine. I don't PvP at all, so I don't care some creativity-lacking competitive (understand "wants to win but doesn't use brain") whined because they got sniped. I do mind that they butchedred lore for that.

I didn't mention it, but I'm ALSO angry that Argonians are no longer resistant to poison, even though most Argonians eat poison for breakfast, that quests still mention them as extremely resistant to poison, that it's part of their lore. And let's talk about Altmers regenerating stamina with SPELL recharge, shall we ? I don't even have an Altmer, and that also rubs me the wrong way.

So non I'm not "baiting"', I'm underlining the fact that most changes are against the lore, against the most basic common sense (you don't fully remove a character defining trait after YEARS), and mor importantly, I'm underlining the fact that those things happen because for some reason I can not even begin to fathom, devs seem to listen to the feedback from little *** that complain about PvP, and them only.

Which, in the end, means they don't care about a large part of their customers, those who don't care about PvP all that much, or not at all. I guess they don't want our money.

But in the end, the whole point of my post was merely "stop acting all high an mighty when you can't even use a word you don't understand properly, and don't contradict yourself, you look like a fool".

CrimsonGTX

This game won't ever reach it's fullest potential if PvE and PvP changes aren't separated, along with the year long bugs not being resolved. If it stays like this we're just going to keep seeing bi-polar patches.

jcm2606

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

I don't think completely separating the two is a good thing, but I do think that if something is fine in PVE yet overperforming in PVP, the nerf bat should swing only for PVP through Battle Spirit.

Having gear and skills work relatively the same in both sides of the game is good for any players new to the game or to their character(s). Any of these players can currently start leveling their character(s) in PVE, leveling any skills and skill lines they may wish to use in PVP, and naturally get a feel for how the class, weapon(s) and playstyle perform. Completely separating the two will force players to relearn their character(s), which will absolutely turn some players off of learning PVP (or end game PVE if they prefer PVP).

Separating the two may also hurt build depth and diversity, as you can bet that the gear and skill options will be limited for balance reasons -- you already have players making threads asking for gear and skill standardisation in PVP, to make fights fairer, at the expense of depth and diversity. One of the reasons why I love ESO's PVP so much is just the amount of variables you can play with, how you can use certain gear and skill setups to tailor your build/character around your playstyle -- non-CP especially, since your choices will introduce weaknesses in your build.

But, at the same time, a line has to be drawn in the sand, and balancing has to be done with respect to that line. PVE and PVP are two very different game modes, with their own ecosystems and requirements. Rarely are balancing issues the exact same between the two, so you can't balance the two in the exact same way, at some point you will have to change how you balance one or the other, depending on the circumstances.

Take petsorc. In PVE, I believe petsorc can be summed up with a simple "meh". It's not the best, but it's not the worst. In PVP, however, petsorcs are overperforming to an extreme extent, allowing players to easily stack max magicka and max health, deal constant damage through the pet, use an instant heal through the pet that heals for as much as a Templar's Breath of Life cast, all the while giving the petsorc free line of sight thanks to targeting shenanigans. All that, backing magsorc's already strong burst and mobility, pushes petsorcs far beyond what other builds are capable of, and potentially makes them downright oppressive to fight.

The petsorc experience between the two are completely different, so petsorc shouldn't be balanced with the same adjustments between the two. Balance the PVE side first, since the PVE side will filter over to the PVP side (ie straight nerfing pet damage hits both PVE and PVP), then use Battle Spirit to balance the PVP side further if necessary. Have Battle Spirit cut the damage and healing of each pet by a certain amount, so that way the nerfs only affect PVP.

The above balancing steps should be applied to all problems specific to PVP, so that the fixes only affect PVP. If you or Zenimax are worried about whether it will be obvious that a skill works slightly different in PVP compared to PVE, have a little note in the tooltip that outlines how it differs. If the damage or effectiveness is halved when used against players, "The damage/effectiveness is halved when used on a player." If the healing effectiveness is reduced by 30% while affected by Battle Spirit, ie in a PVP-enabled zone, "The effectiveness is reduced by 30% while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." If a damage shield only factors half your resistances into the damage calculation, "Resistances are half as effective while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." Etc.

Alphawolf01A

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

jcm2606 wrote: »

I don't think completely separating the two is a good thing, but I do think that if something is fine in PVE yet overperforming in PVP, the nerf bat should swing only for PVP through Battle Spirit.

Having gear and skills work relatively the same in both sides of the game is good for any players new to the game or to their character(s). Any of these players can currently start leveling their character(s) in PVE, leveling any skills and skill lines they may wish to use in PVP, and naturally get a feel for how the class, weapon(s) and playstyle perform. Completely separating the two will force players to relearn their character(s), which will absolutely turn some players off of learning PVP (or end game PVE if they prefer PVP).

Separating the two may also hurt build depth and diversity, as you can bet that the gear and skill options will be limited for balance reasons -- you already have players making threads asking for gear and skill standardisation in PVP, to make fights fairer, at the expense of depth and diversity. One of the reasons why I love ESO's PVP so much is just the amount of variables you can play with, how you can use certain gear and skill setups to tailor your build/character around your playstyle -- non-CP especially, since your choices will introduce weaknesses in your build.

But, at the same time, a line has to be drawn in the sand, and balancing has to be done with respect to that line. PVE and PVP are two very different game modes, with their own ecosystems and requirements. Rarely are balancing issues the exact same between the two, so you can't balance the two in the exact same way, at some point you will have to change how you balance one or the other, depending on the circumstances.

Take petsorc. In PVE, I believe petsorc can be summed up with a simple "meh". It's not the best, but it's not the worst. In PVP, however, petsorcs are overperforming to an extreme extent, allowing players to easily stack max magicka and max health, deal constant damage through the pet, use an instant heal through the pet that heals for as much as a Templar's Breath of Life cast, all the while giving the petsorc free line of sight thanks to targeting shenanigans. All that, backing magsorc's already strong burst and mobility, pushes petsorcs far beyond what other builds are capable of, and potentially makes them downright oppressive to fight.

The petsorc experience between the two are completely different, so petsorc shouldn't be balanced with the same adjustments between the two. Balance the PVE side first, since the PVE side will filter over to the PVP side (ie straight nerfing pet damage hits both PVE and PVP), then use Battle Spirit to balance the PVP side further if necessary. Have Battle Spirit cut the damage and healing of each pet by a certain amount, so that way the nerfs only affect PVP.

The above balancing steps should be applied to all problems specific to PVP, so that the fixes only affect PVP. If you or Zenimax are worried about whether it will be obvious that a skill works slightly different in PVP compared to PVE, have a little note in the tooltip that outlines how it differs. If the damage or effectiveness is halved when used against players, "The damage/effectiveness is halved when used on a player." If the healing effectiveness is reduced by 30% while affected by Battle Spirit, ie in a PVP-enabled zone, "The effectiveness is reduced by 30% while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." If a damage shield only factors half your resistances into the damage calculation, "Resistances are half as effective while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." Etc.

YES! exactly. If battle spirit already adjusts health, healing rate and shields, it just needs other balancing adjustments added to it.

And please fix the wonky targeting. I love having a ranged enemy in the cross hairs, only to have my attack veer off and hit a rat or bug on the ground that is no threat just set dressing. But hey, at least I got crawlers or guts out of it as the enemy tries to kill me. LOL

DjMuscleboy02

No keep it the way it is, it's obviously working as there are next to no complaints about the state of PvP or PvE /s

p00tx

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Yes, please. I know they have the skill and the knowledge to do it, but they have to see how beneficial it would be and how it could potentially end this constant re-balancing nightmare and the ridiculous US vs THEM infighting between the two playstyles. End game players of both already roll separate toons for both anyway, since you'd have to constantly pay to swap out CP and change skill morphs and ain't nobody got time (or gold) for that.

Battle Spirit was a good step in the right direction, but it was only a bare beginning. This needs to be pursued further.

DeathStalker_X

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

They should be created and advanced SEPARATELY and neither should be dependent on the other. That way PvE skills have no impact on PvP and vice-versa.

Design/logic-wise, this is NOT tremendously hard to develop, I can't speak to the underlying coding required.

albertberku

NO - ZOS should continue its policy of balancing for both PvP/PvE so that everything behaves the same in both environments

why would you need anything special for pve? Every patch all you do is recalculate your rotation your gear for the highest dps possible. One skill nerfed? You dont use it in your rotation anymore. And then you do the same content over and over to be proud of how high your guild`s score on the leaderboards.

p00tx

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

albertberku wrote: »

why would you need anything special for pve? Every patch all you do is recalculate your rotation your gear for the highest dps possible. One skill nerfed? You dont use it in your rotation anymore. And then you do the same content over and over to be proud of how high your guild`s score on the leaderboards.

That's an extreme oversimplification, and kinda not necessary. Solutions, not snark.

Daedric_NB_187

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Necro thread is Necro. On topic. I'm a pvper and I firmly believe skills should work differently in pvp and pve. I am sick of my skills being nerfed/ruined because of pvp and pve balance. It is the one thing I have hated in every MMO I have played.

Alphawolf01A

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

albertberku wrote: »

why would you need anything special for pve? Every patch all you do is recalculate your rotation your gear for the highest dps possible. One skill nerfed? You dont use it in your rotation anymore. And then you do the same content over and over to be proud of how high your guild`s score on the leaderboards.

Well, not everyone is a DPS. Tanks and healers are affected by this too.
Not every guild cares about leader boards.

ArcaneBlue

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

pve and pve work differently and as primarily a pve healer I feel the most gutted by the proposed springs/orb changes. these kinds of balance changes always kick middle tier, lesser geared/skilled players where it hurts the most. sure, the very top tier players most likely will find a way to adapt alright but for learners, proggers and what have you... it is painful to say it mildly

Gandrhulf_Harbard

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Best PvP in any MMORPG I have ever played was in LOTRO.

Where once side of the PvP (actually PvMP) was made up of toons with different classes and skills that ONLY existed in PvP.

That left the normal Player Character Toons to be just balanced against "content", and the the Monster-Toons in PvP to be balanced against them.

PvE was a lot less prone to nerf and buff swings.
PvP was LOT more balanced, not perfect - no system ever is.


All The Best

Lady_Arikel

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Simple reason for me: balancing both at the same time is actually impossible. What they've been doing is trying to balance PVP regardless of how the changes will affect PVE. While I *do* understand balancing PVP is super important, what ends up happening is PVE play styles keep getting more and more restrictive.

It is particularly impactful when the changes happen on skills that aren't locked to any particular class, since those skills often help a certain class to overcome their specific weaknesses when performing a certain role (think of silver leash and non-DK tanks, for example).

WhisperLFE

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Best PvP in any MMORPG I have ever played was in LOTRO.

Where once side of the PvP (actually PvMP) was made up of toons with different classes and skills that ONLY existed in PvP.

That left the normal Player Character Toons to be just balanced against "content", and the the Monster-Toons in PvP to be balanced against them.

PvE was a lot less prone to nerf and buff swings.
PvP was LOT more balanced, not perfect - no system ever is.


All The Best

I agree, LOTRO was able to balance them separately; ESO could at least try to do the same. If it crashes and burns, hey, at least they gave it a shot.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

jcm2606 wrote: »

I don't think completely separating the two is a good thing, but I do think that if something is fine in PVE yet overperforming in PVP, the nerf bat should swing only for PVP through Battle Spirit.

Having gear and skills work relatively the same in both sides of the game is good for any players new to the game or to their character(s). Any of these players can currently start leveling their character(s) in PVE, leveling any skills and skill lines they may wish to use in PVP, and naturally get a feel for how the class, weapon(s) and playstyle perform. Completely separating the two will force players to relearn their character(s), which will absolutely turn some players off of learning PVP (or end game PVE if they prefer PVP).

Separating the two may also hurt build depth and diversity, as you can bet that the gear and skill options will be limited for balance reasons -- you already have players making threads asking for gear and skill standardisation in PVP, to make fights fairer, at the expense of depth and diversity. One of the reasons why I love ESO's PVP so much is just the amount of variables you can play with, how you can use certain gear and skill setups to tailor your build/character around your playstyle -- non-CP especially, since your choices will introduce weaknesses in your build.

But, at the same time, a line has to be drawn in the sand, and balancing has to be done with respect to that line. PVE and PVP are two very different game modes, with their own ecosystems and requirements. Rarely are balancing issues the exact same between the two, so you can't balance the two in the exact same way, at some point you will have to change how you balance one or the other, depending on the circumstances.

Take petsorc. In PVE, I believe petsorc can be summed up with a simple "meh". It's not the best, but it's not the worst. In PVP, however, petsorcs are overperforming to an extreme extent, allowing players to easily stack max magicka and max health, deal constant damage through the pet, use an instant heal through the pet that heals for as much as a Templar's Breath of Life cast, all the while giving the petsorc free line of sight thanks to targeting shenanigans. All that, backing magsorc's already strong burst and mobility, pushes petsorcs far beyond what other builds are capable of, and potentially makes them downright oppressive to fight.

The petsorc experience between the two are completely different, so petsorc shouldn't be balanced with the same adjustments between the two. Balance the PVE side first, since the PVE side will filter over to the PVP side (ie straight nerfing pet damage hits both PVE and PVP), then use Battle Spirit to balance the PVP side further if necessary. Have Battle Spirit cut the damage and healing of each pet by a certain amount, so that way the nerfs only affect PVP.

The above balancing steps should be applied to all problems specific to PVP, so that the fixes only affect PVP. If you or Zenimax are worried about whether it will be obvious that a skill works slightly different in PVP compared to PVE, have a little note in the tooltip that outlines how it differs. If the damage or effectiveness is halved when used against players, "The damage/effectiveness is halved when used on a player." If the healing effectiveness is reduced by 30% while affected by Battle Spirit, ie in a PVP-enabled zone, "The effectiveness is reduced by 30% while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." If a damage shield only factors half your resistances into the damage calculation, "Resistances are half as effective while in a PVP-enabled zone, or while affected by Battle Spirit." Etc.

PvP and PvE don't need separate skills sets. All they need do is create two sets of skills tables that can be adjusted uniquely for each environment. If the pet has too much DPS in PvP with two tables they can adjust the PvP side without screwing up PvE. The same goes for any skill attribute. It really shouldn't be that hard with the way ESO isolates PvP from the larger world.

Eraldus

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Separating PVP from PVE for balancing is the only way that a game like ESO, which is supposed to let the player build their character the way they want, will ever be fun and enjoyable to play, without the PVP crybabies that sucks at PVPing crying for nerfs all over the place, because they can't learn strategies to win.

It doesn't takes a genius to see that.

BennyButton

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

The thing that it seems most PvP players don't get is that PvE is all about "built-in mechanics" which does not allow for much adapting while PvP is literally all about adapting. These nerfs that PvP players bring about by complaining is ruining end-game raiding and hindering mid to lower tier progression groups. For EXAMPLE: springs and orbs are a crutch when spammed by healers, which is useful to mid-lower tier prog. groups, springs and orbs are used tactfully by healers in high-tier progression groups.

I agree with the battle spirit suggestions and believe that's the route that should be taken...unless @ZOS_BrianWheeler wants to go back and re-do all the mechanics in all trials (both veteran and HM).

Fang_of_Lorkhaj

YES - ZOS should allow certain skills, abilities and combat dynamics to behave differently in PvP and PvE

Yes. PvE should NOT have to SUFFER because of PvP, Simple.