My experience in a PuG daily with players less than <100 CPs. CP system ought to be reformed.

Joy_Division

This was my group:
Level 36 DPS
CP 60 DPS
CP 109 Tank
Me healing (on my sorcerer)



I've healed Veteran Crypt of Hearts hundreds of times. I know what I'm doing.

Our original group had a 561 DPS (in place of the 60). After the first boss took a loooong time to kill, he just simply quit and dropped out.

It has been a long, long time since I been in a group where trash packs last more than 30 seconds and bosses last long enough to do their special attack more than once. In this CoH run, these bosses were living for 4+ minutes and I was genuinely shocked just how many adds were spawning. The “Guardian” boss in the bedroom had upwards to 20 skeletons at some point! What would we have done if I didn’t have a Negate? I knew we’d never finish, but unlike the guy who just quit, I was determined to do the best I could and, since I am a teacher, help these folks out the best I could and try to offer them some advice that might make them better players.

I have felt for a long time that ESO, as much as I like this game, does a poor job preparing players on how to play the game effectively and its game mechanics are dangerously misleading in that it is too easy to make a bad build without realizing it. This run reinforced these sentiments and brought out three points that I feel the developers have been negligent in.

There is too much power in the Champion System.

For those who do not know or were not around before update 6 (1.6 patch February 2015), ZoS at that point took away power that was in the base combat system – stuff wide ranging as critical hit chance, resource return on heavy attacks, cost reduction, etc. – and placed it in the champion system (presumably on the assumption that we’d get it back). This isn’t even fine in theory; what are those people who have few champion points supposed to do? Just about everything you can do can be modified by up to 25% and these 25% effects are cumulative in that my damage is increased by 25% by this star and 25% by that star, to say nothing of the additional 25% type bonuses we get (such as damage reduction, resource regeneration, etc.), to go along with some (too) powerful boons like unchained.

This is a huge problem. How is ZoS supposed to balance around this? If they cut it across the middle at 300 CPs, then content is too easy for people like me at 561 and too hard for the other people who were in my group. Zos, we understand some sort of end-game progression is desirable, but this is way too much. The CP system should mostly be a way to customize our characters by picking stuff that either augments our abilities or allows us to do interesting things beyond the scope of our skill-lines. Also, give back the power that was taken away from the base game back so everyone has access to it. This would make such that you aren’t strictly more powerful the more CPs you get (yeah balance!), rather your character is more versatile and unique (yeah build variety!). If damage is going to increase, then it should be very specific such that a characterize specializes in just one skill rather than increasing all their damage! Stuff like:

• Ranges abilities can shoot/cast further
• Faster speed & less stamina consumption
• Your Breath of Life hits an additional target
• You generate ultimate faster
• Your Molten Whip now is a stamina based ability
• You are an Ice master, your fire/shock effects are weaker but Ice is stronger and does X.
• The medium armor Athletics passive applies to you in Light Armor
• Your potions last a little longer.
• Your synergies are 10% more effective

So a little power, yes, but this is subtle stuff that allows us to personalize our characters more. Personally speaking I would be much more interested in becoming an Ice Master than just taking out my calculator to see whether or not this generic +damage star is mathematically better than this other generic +damage star.

Why not just remove it altogether?

I do agree that some sort of end game progression is desirable. Removing it would also remove a potential mechanism to customize our characters and make them different from other players. It’s too easy of a solution. No. The problem is that there is too much power and obvious +%damage and -resource cost stars that we all take, which eliminates the very customization the CP system was supposed to provide.

The game has too many bad abilities.

I would venture to say more skills/morphs are suboptimal, inefficient, niche, or overly impractical than there are ones that make for effective builds. That is a frightening statement: this means an inexperienced player is more apt to be running a poor skill than a good one. So until you are told what these bad abilities are (because you’ll never find out in the Overland solo PVE content since it is so easy, it’s possible to finish it with poor skills without a problem), you’re going to be running a poor build that, even if played well, just won’t cut it in competitive situations (which is why I personally think we see so many “vMA is too hard” threads). As a templar, there are actually 4 abilities that I think there is a legitimate argument that can make your build worse just by using: Eclipse (both morphs), Healing Ritual (both morphs), Radiant Aura, and on all by high speced out health builds, Sun Shield (both morhps). There are only 15 total skills for a class! That means more than ¼ of all Templar abilities are detracting from a build’s potential.

As it is, we only have 4 classes and very few abilities to pick from. So what all these poor abilities lead to are a bunch of cookie-cutter builds that stifles build diversity … at least for those who eventually figure out which skills ought to be use and which to be completely discarded. So frustrating for new players. Not interesting for experienced players. I view it as a huge problem that another sorcerer can mathematically assert my build is “wrong” because I am not using the Bound Aegis skill. Please fix.


The game does not teach you how to play.

My level 30 DPS was an archer. All he did was stand at maximum distance away from the boss and snipe. And why not? Snipe is his highest damaging skill and there is a passive in the bow line that suggests players should stand far away. Even after I tried to nicely tell him multiple times that:

• staying way out there makes healing him difficult
• also using the AoE volley skill every 10 seconds would be a huge help against all the adds
• the poison injection ability, even though it’s damage doesn’t look impressive, is still great

We were still struggling (and I didn’t see many Volleys). I don’t mind helping people out (as I said I am a teacher), but why do I have to be the first to impart this knowledge on him? Shouldn’t the game sort of hint that this is basic stuff that players wishing to actually complete a daily pledge do?

I spent much of my time scrambling between healing the three of them (who were in three different places) while numerous adds were chasing me (I had a crystal frag proc active 70% of time, i.e. I had a hard time just using it!), that I did not get a good sense of what the CP 60 Templar was doing, but whatever it was, it was not effective.
Here are two DPS parses I took. Pay attention to the Group and % damage.



Look at all those skeletons adds...



Had him down to execute range. So close!

It should not be possible that the healer, just by using ground DoTs and a Negate ultimate, to account for 60% of the groups DPS! I wasn’t even trying or have a build to do damage.

Are these bad habits picked up by players not challenged by ZoS easy solo Overland PvE content? Players who just trust that ZoS’s tooltips are accurate assessments of how the game should be played? Unfortunate players who had veterans just constantly quit on them like my first max level DPS without even trying to teach them how to play better? Symptoms of uniformed strategic decisions made because ZoS does not provide these players with tools such as DPS meters to assess their play?

This was my first MMO and just thinking back to at Launch, I do remember being more impressed with effects that were instant and “flashy.” Well, ZoS, that’s the impression that’s fostered when you want a game with minimal UI and no DPS meters. I also remember being challenged by the solo PvE overland content so even though I was playing very inefficiently, I was motivated to improving my build and trying out new strategies. I also remembered after becoming accustomed to healing what was then called “Normal” dungeons (i.e. below level 50), developing a lot of bad habits and being totally unprepared in my first “Veteran” Dungeon Spindleclutch. (How many of you remember the Old Spindleclutch, where the Gargoyle was a legit group DPS check and the Praxin fight was the end of the line for PuG groups? Ahh memories…). It is not instinctive for DPS players to ignore annoying adds on the periphery, to group up and trust their healer to get them through danger, or for their brain to process the wimpy ground AoE is damaging on a far greater magnitude than a showy ability like dizzying swing. And having individual solo content so easy to reinforce such bad habits aren't helping.
.
These are all pipe-dreams, but I’m going to suggest them anyway.

• ZoS did the first thing I would recommend: make the Overland PvE bosses legitimately challenging. There must be something in this game that a player can quickly and easily just go fight on their own that taxes their build and tests their skills. Many of them can be soloed and I would encourage players looking to get better to try and do just that (you are going to need a good source of resource management).
• I don’t find things such as buff timers and status indicators necessary – I play with a very clear and barebones UI – however I do find the option to go back after a fight and examine how much damage I was doing with each skill (and in PvP, how much damage was done to me) 1000% essential to learning. Otherwise, how are you supposed to possibly assess your performance? Even if you “win” group content, you could have been carried by the other 3 group members and gain a false impression. The option for an after action combat log and cumulative damage statistics really ought to made available for everyone.
• The idea of a “normal” mode is fine and dandy, but it’s really “story” mode in that it requires zero skill or semblance of a coherent build to complete. I understand the value of making it so you don’t have to be in a hardcore end-game raid guild to finish Sanctum Ophidia – however, “normal” mode goes way too far in simply not preparing people the very basics on ESO gameplay. You don’t have to move out of red. My DPS can take a full uppercut from a boss and the healthbar will not move. If I am a healer, I can go feed my cat and everyone will be just fine. Remember a long, long time ago, before the Champion System, Dragonstar Arena came out and had a “normal” mode that was … somewhat challenging, but with some practice and just competent gameplay, was totally doable and people felt like an actual accomplishment for beating it? What happened to that sort of model?
• Ultimately the biggest culprit is the Champion System. ZoS cannot make content that is reasonable balanced and interesting for players with 561 CPS and those with 50. Can’t be done. Yet with the whole idea of One Tamriel, ZoS now has to try to do that with every zone, every instance, every dungeon, everywhere, everything. Which means no matter where you go or try to do in ESO, you are pretty much getting content that is either too hard or too easy. Reform the champion system. Return the power taken away from the base game and give it back to all players. Make the system progressive, but one that subtly complements certain strengths and allows us to customize our characters in interesting and unique ways rather than just a straight power grab that we can figure out with our calculators.

The other thing I would encourage max level CP players who care about this game’s community and have a semblance of patience is to “PuG” a daily once in a while with the group-finder. Stop running exclusively with your guildmates. If you like your guild, wouldn’t it be a good idea to look for promising new players to join it? And don’t just quit if things don’t go smoothly. You once sucked too you know.

In sum:

There is too much power in the Champion System for ZoS to balance content for low CP players and high CP players. If this is truly “One Tamriel,” then please make a system such that balance is possible for all of us!

• Return the power ZoS took from the base game such that it is available to everyone
• Reform the CP system such that it subtly augments our builds and allows customization rather than a straight power grab.
• Please be more on top of balance issues rather than waiting years to even address stuff everyone knows is busted or bad.
• Please add basic “after action” tools so players can make assessments about their build after combat
• Please scale “normal” and overland PvE content such that you cannot beat it by standing in red. With the power given back to players that the CP system stole, you need not worry about mollycoddling them.
• Please have the game communicate to every player that the ground AoE that looks weak due to the small damage numbers is actually one of the more powerful skills in her arsenal.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Maybe we should replace the starter zone with a place called Joy Divisions school for pugs. Haha. I agree for the most part with everything you said. If I have any pushback it's that you might be over stating the CP issue just a bit. Take 4 experienced players and remove their CP, and they will still be able to clear the vast majority of content.

Don't get me wrong, CP makes a huge difference and perhaps they put to much power in these trees. I would not be opposed to decreasing the gap between a CP 1 and 561, but I do think there should be a meaningful difference or what's the point.

I think the most important thing you hit on is that this game is absolutely horrible at bridging the gap between story mode (that's a good term for it) and veteran mode. I have similar screen shots from tanking pledges with group DPS less than 20k and more adds on the screen than I thought were possible. DPS meters and addons like combat metrics should absolutely be in game for all to see. It is impossible to improve your build if you don't objectively know how much damage you are doing.

Hopefully the addition of test dummies will go a long way. I would also like to see a basic quest for each role that you must complete before you queue for a group finder. These quests would explain some basic mechanics like red circles, the difference between AoE abilities and single target, or why DOTs and buffs/debuffs are important. They could require you to take out a basic trash pack and a more powerful boss type in a reasonable amount of time, and offer suggestions when you fail. The tank quest would go through how aggro works, etc. These quests could even go as far as to suggest a basic cookie cutter front bar for each type of build. Hey mr. first time DPS, try this bar that offers a spam skill, an aoe skill, a dot, and a buff or two.

dsalter

personally the stars scale to high, outright changing them to neat things you suggested would really make a mess of balance but i say if we halve the star values we can work on it (basically instead of a star giving 25% it would only give 12.5%) so that you get stronger but not on a stupid level.

QuebraRegra

LOL

This takes me back to a time when a huge chunk of the community denied that CPs were a consequential factor at all in terms of game balance. Well I guess we see how that worked out now?

DRXHarbinger

You know what I would have done?








Put the resto away and gone overload, screw the group and leave them dead.




Although did you finish? Can't imagine they killed Nerenith shield phase.

redspecter23

This might not be what people want to hear, but perhaps dungeons, more specifically version II's and especially DLC's shouldn't be for brand new characters. Maybe new characters that are on their first toons with no champion points should be advised not to run dungeons. From a leveling point of view, you don't NEED dungeons to level up. For a fresh character, you're going to level faster in overland content or mob grinding there. So the question is, what does a level 36 first time player get out of a dungeon? Is it worth it for them to even be there or can they just spend an extra 1.5 hours getting to level 50, then dive into dungeons with at least a few CP's?

Danksta

So it was a vet dungeon? With a level 36? I thought you had to be level 50 to do vet dungeons.

SickDuck

CP system is strong indeed, but any decent player with a purple crafted set gear can go through them without a single CP no problem. The lowbies are even compensated up to cp160 for the lack of points. If a player can pull a decent 20k with max cp, it will still be above 10k without. That's enough for any veteran dungeon provided people are not playing stupid. Two dds having 20k dps is definitely better than the above 8.5k (tank included in that one).

So leave the system alone please. Gaining cp after 160 is the only actual (little) progression the game can offer since 1T.

I can agree pretty much with the rest. (I'm doing 4-5 random runs a day)

code65536

Danksta wrote: »

So it was a vet dungeon? With a level 36? I thought you had to be level 50 to do vet dungeons.

As the screenshot indicates, it's a vet-difficulty dungeon with a CP36. "Level" was just an inadvertent choice of words, I assume.


@Joy_Division

I agree that there is a lot that the game could do to better prepare and teach players. But I think that the CP system is mostly fine. In recent months--this is after the vet rank removal--I leveled a character on my second account. I started to do group content--because I wanted to reach Undaunted 9 as soon as possible--as soon as I hit CP10. From CP 10 through 159, you get special scaling bonuses--including extra stats and regen--intended to help people who don't have access to max-level gear. These bonuses are quite generous, and I never really felt that handicapped below 160. I did welcome certain CP milestones, like CP90 when I got my crit chance bonus, but for the most part, I think it was fine.

Once I hit 160, I lost those bonuses, but also finally donning a set of max-level gear helped a lot, too.

The biggest challenge I noticed as a low-CP player is the sustain, and I had to plan my gear around that (I wrote a post about the build that I used, found in my signature). Of course, my DPS couldn't match what I could do on my main account, but it was good enough that I was often doing more than my fair share of DPS in PUGs--even in groups that had higher-CP players.

So I disagree with CP being a problem. Of course, it makes a difference, and for a new player who still needs to learn, having that extra handicap does them no favors. But for someone who does know how to play, CP doesn't make that much of a difference and won't result in the kinds of DPS that you saw in your PUG.



But, again, I do wholeheartedly agree that there is much that the game could do to help new players learn. When I started playing 20 months ago, ESO was my first (and is still only) online game of any sort. I came to ESO because I was in Skyrim withdrawal and had no idea what a MMO is supposed to be like.

And there was quite a bit of a steep learning curve, for someone like me who only played single-player games casually and was more interested in scenery and story. I had no idea what the hell people meant when they asked for a "tank" or a "DPS" in zone chat ("healer", though, was sufficiently self-explanatory). I didn't know what a "taunt" was. I didn't know that I shouldn't mix stam and magicka. I didn't know what light-attack-spam with a bow was not a valid form of damage-dealing, and I struggled even in normal-mode dungeons. My first time in vCoH2 (though back then there wasn't a "2") was a 3-hour wipefest in which we didn't even clear. And I hadn't been prepared for any of that because this was after the overworld difficulty had been reduced (not that you needed much combat in the first place for the questing).

Today, I have the blue skin and a Flawless title, so even a clueless newbie can be reformed, and for me, the group dungeons were the wake-up call that forced me to actually look carefully at tooltips and think more carefully about the various choices available in the game. Would it have been easier if the game had better tutorials beyond the paltry little that we learn in the Wailing Prison? Yes. Would it be nice if the Undaunted introduction quest was more about teaching players about what "tanks" and "taunts" are instead of just a theater scene of Undaunted singing and banter (contrast that with the Cyrodiil introduction quest)? Yes. Would it be better if there was a smoother, more gradual ramp in difficulty? Yes. But there is a silver lining, and that's failing miserably at a dungeon isn't necessarily a bad thing--failure can often be a good teacher, after all.

Asmael

Back in 1.6, after about something like 3 months of gameplay, I had a veteran 8 character and still didn't know that abilities scaled based on your max stamina / magicka. I didn't use DPS metrics (neither FTC nor combat metrics). I had no idea what my DPS was.

When 1.7 hit live, I did a vICP run. I had absolutely no idea how much I was getting carried, but I absolutely got carried, hard. I was hitting maybe 10k DPS top. Hail the WB spamming.

A bit later during 1.7, a bit bored of PvP, I decide to focus on the PvE side, wanted to start being a DD and grabbed a mag DK, but to make sure to not be a dead weight, I checked a few different builds on the forums and Tamriel Foundry.

I have learned more on that one day of consulting builds on websites than I did in months of playing the game. About basic gameplay mechanics on top of that. Sithis guardz us.

I wonder what would have happened if I didn't decide to check resources outside the game and didn't join a guild. Would probably still spamming WB with a large silly grin on my face and a mighty 15K DPS.

--

On the bright side...

• Housing, testing dummies. Now to see how much data will be available by using those for someone with a barebone UI.
• Maybe, buff timers for console. At least people can have a better idea of some timers, instead of relying on the extremely buggy visuals (e.g: Dragon blood / Shuffle / Deadly cloak / Defensive posture and else).

On the not so bright side...

Today, someone starts the game. How can (s)he know, without someone else telling them:

• That the same named buffs don't stack?
• That maximum stamina / magicka affects your abilities' tooltip?
• How much DPS / HPS they're actually doing?
• How aggro / taunting and overtaunting work?

Iselin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Take 4 experienced players and remove their CP, and they will still be able to clear the vast majority of content.

This.

Player experience, especially the knowledge of which skills to use and how to work them together as a package, is by far the biggest gap. CPs just serve to magnify that knowledge gap, especially since they too can be chosen poorly or wisely.

It's a flaw in open skill systems that Funcom identified in TSW and addressed prior to launch. They simply created templates, gave them unique names and left it up to the player to follow a template or build free form. ESO has always lacked that sort of QOL feature for new players.

Also, I don't even agree that this is a group dungeon vs. open world issue. We notice it more in dungeons because that is the time when we're most closely watching each other. But if you look closely enough, you can see that knowledge gap at work everywhere. I see players of all levels struggling to handle simple 3-enemy packs dying or nearly dying to them in the overland too. Mostly I see them doing nothing but bow light attacks trying to kite instead of using AOE abilities to kill them all quickly and efficiently.

Rev Rielle

Honestly, it's the very mechanics of the game: no cool-downs for skills, messed up animation/casting times for some skills and not others, not to mention the most important fact of all: animation canceling.

Those factors (and more) all lead to massive imbalance in combat. And development have stated they're a 'cool unintended side-effect' (quoting Eric from ESO Live a while ago) and they're not going to do anything about them.

So sadly, the game is what it is. CP balances, auto-level improvements or anything similar are basically just tiny band-aids on what is a gushing wound.

We just have to try and make the best of it.

Nestor

Excellent Analysis, but I have to wonder how many low CP players expect to do Veteran Group Dungeons. I bet this group would have done fine in a Non Vet Instance.

I would have loved to see the same analysis on regular group dungeons which are a sneeze fest to clear. I will say that the dungeon scale from easy to hard is quite wide, maybe too wide. Normal Dungeons are a cake walk, and quite frankly, some of them need to be, so as you say, people can learn. But, the easy dungeons reinforce bad habits because no one is really punished for them. But, people need to get their feet wet somewhere.

We need a few Dungeon Scales or Levels. The new areas (Part II) of the dungeons could be an excellent stepping stone of an increase over Part I. Then you have Part 1 of Vet be a little easier than Part II of Vet. Then add in Hard Mode for those who really want a challenge. Or, perhaps the Group Dungeons in the Legacy Zones 1 and 2 be the easier ones to run, then they get harder as the zones go along. Although One Tamriel kind of leans towards the former.

We did a series of runs in White Gold Tower treating it as a Vet Mod for a few weeks in our Guild. This was lead by @UrQuan and he did an excellent job of teaching folks how to do the Vet dungeon. Mainly by not allowing people to use bad habits to win the boss fights. So, we learned to overkill Normal WGT so that vWGT was a challenge, not an exercise in frustration. Note, this was back before it was nerfed in Vet Mode

Rev Rielle

Nestor wrote: »

...
We need a few Dungeon Scales or Levels. The new areas (Part II) of the dungeons could be an excellent stepping stone of an increase over Part I. Then you have Part 1 of Vet be a little easier than Part II of Vet. ...

This is actually how it is in game already. Part II dungeons, even on normal mode sometimes have various one-shot, or other similarly lethal mechanics that players must learn or they won't succeed. I don't think that occurs in any Part I dungeon. Similarly so, the veteran enemies in Part II dungeons are tougher than those in Part I it seems. I've been helping some new players in the game of late, and I've really noticed this, something I hadn't until now.

Perhaps it's not a pronounced, obvious or consistent as it could be, but it does seem to be there at least in part already.

NBrookus

Nestor wrote: »

Excellent Analysis, but I have to wonder how many low CP players expect to do Veteran Group Dungeons. I bet this group would have done fine in a Non Vet Instance.

Judging from my experiences pugging lately... a lot. They get an invitation to do pledges, after all. I think ZOS has done a pretty good job at this point of providing a range of difficulty levels and progression. What's missing are clear indicators of the scale of difficulty that players can reference beforehand.

Pugging can be rough, but I've had more issues with high CP players who think they are rock stars than newer players. That DPS that runs ahead and pulls aggro in the next room then complains the healer sucks because he dies out of LoS. The guy who starts a vote kick every time someone dies. The player who grabs the hard mode scroll without asking, even though one or more group members have been having difficulty with basic mechanics. Give me a noob paying attention over an entitled 561CP jerk any day.

3 times recently the first words out of a <160CP player when joining a group has been "Please don't kick me!" That's just sad.

SolarCat02

NBrookus wrote: »

3 times recently the first words out of a <160CP player when joining a group has been "Please don't kick me!" That's just sad.

Stuff like this happens in Normal dungeons, too.

Queued for a random normal on my CP561 healer, with his lvl 44 stamina dragonknight to hopefully push him to lvl 45 so he can collect undaunted keys on another character and maybe someday get the shoulders he needs. (That RNG is terrible. ) Got Crypt of Hearts I.

We port in, and immediately there is a vote to kick him. I rejected it, so away went the CP561stamsorc dps who queued as tank, rushing down the hallway. He killed all the bosses except the final boss before anyone else got there, meaning my husband not only got zero experience points for the dungeon (aside from the final boss and the random dungeon undaunted boost, but also he was unable to do the dungeon quest because the stamsorc skipped the "optional" bosses required for the quest and so things were killed out of order.

We queued again for the same dungeon to hopefully finish the quest, and ended up with the same exact group, all four people. This time, the stamsorc "tank" was kicked before the dungeon started, and we had a much more pleasant run.

In this case my husband was "only" on an alt, but how would a newbie feel if that was their introduction to dungeons? My husband and I could easily duo the dungeon in question, and both of us are well familiar with mechanics. (Heck, I have nightmares about it due to grinding it on vet with our tank to finish his Ebon set...) But if that was my first dungeon run I would have no inclination to do a second one.

RebornV3x

Another problem with the game that hasn't been adressed is that no dungeons have a recommended level so you have no clue what your up against it would definitely help to see o I should be a 160 to do vet Wayrest Sewers or 500+ for vet hm Cradle of Shadow, VICP etc...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Bit of a necro, but I had an idea:

People complain about the power gap or divide between difficulties. I agree that exists, but there really is quite a broad range of difficulty if you look at all the dungeons together in all of their various difficulties.

What if they took all the current dungeons as they are now and rated them with 1-5 stars. One being the easiest, and 5 being the toughest. COA I on normal for example would be a 1-Star dungeon(I use this as an example because I solo farm it) and VET COS or Vet ROM would be 5-Star (your average group-finder group will fail miserably in these places).

Everyone would get a star rating in group finder. Once you complete all the 1 star dungeons, which anybody can queue for, you get a shiny gold start next to your name. This would allow access to 2 star dungeons and so forth. When you join a group finder, you could set what star dungeons you are after, assuming you had access to them. That way it forces people through a basic progression. It could even go farther to suggest basic DPS and gear levels and that sort of thing that are suggested to be able to complete each level.

I think it might go a long way to avoid CP shaming, etc. If I queue for say 3-5 star dungeons (about where I expect the vet levels to be), I know that everyone has at least been through the basics. If all I want to do is run DLC dungeons, than I could queue for 5-Star only and know that people should stand a decent shot at clearing.

idk

Tl;dr

Really needs some serious editing so it gets to the point.

Besides that, no MMO does a good job preparing people for roles. It certainly cannot try to prepare people for various roles and meet everyone's expectations concerning that preparation.

Every MMO has people who play for meta and people who play with their head in the sand but r enjoy the game. We get all these types in GF and it's life.

The people who actually post these threads are the ones doing it wrong If you want an ideal group don't use GF. Use your guilds or at least form up before heading into the dungeon.

Problem solved.

VinyParsley2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Maybe we should replace the starter zone with a place called Joy Divisions school for pugs. Haha. I agree for the most part with everything you said. If I have any pushback it's that you might be over stating the CP issue just a bit. Take 4 experienced players and remove their CP, and they will still be able to clear the vast majority of content.

Don't get me wrong, CP makes a huge difference and perhaps they put to much power in these trees. I would not be opposed to decreasing the gap between a CP 1 and 561, but I do think there should be a meaningful difference or what's the point.

I think the most important thing you hit on is that this game is absolutely horrible at bridging the gap between story mode (that's a good term for it) and veteran mode. I have similar screen shots from tanking pledges with group DPS less than 20k and more adds on the screen than I thought were possible. DPS meters and addons like combat metrics should absolutely be in game for all to see. It is impossible to improve your build if you don't objectively know how much damage you are doing.

Hopefully the addition of test dummies will go a long way. I would also like to see a basic quest for each role that you must complete before you queue for a group finder. These quests would explain some basic mechanics like red circles, the difference between AoE abilities and single target, or why DOTs and buffs/debuffs are important. They could require you to take out a basic trash pack and a more powerful boss type in a reasonable amount of time, and offer suggestions when you fail. The tank quest would go through how aggro works, etc. These quests could even go as far as to suggest a basic cookie cutter front bar for each type of build. Hey mr. first time DPS, try this bar that offers a spam skill, an aoe skill, a dot, and a buff or two.

Your fault, all your fault!
I told you guys million times - Kick the low level and low cp guys at the beginning! It helps you, and helps them.
I think, maybe, it is time to feed my old thread again

Reykice

As a person that does pugs a lot i can offer some tips:

1. Kick all low CP dps. Tanks/healers can do their job with lower CP, dps can`t sadly. Don`t feel bad its ZOS`s job to balance the game not yours.
2. If you are the only high CP in the group... and the healer, leave. Saves time.


Yea the CP`s are OP... but i guess they are designed to be? I feel for the new players trying to get pledges done my guess is they are kicked a lot and with the 15min cd timer... yea it sucks. But i do not think they will ever remove it... game is balanced with cp`s in mind it would need a huge nerf to everything if they remove cp`s.

nordsavage

All low level pugs should be liquefied and formed into Max CP Flesh Atronachs in true Elder Scrolls form.

Syrani

Power creep is a thing, but most of the time that isn't what causes issues. It's bad builds (like was mentioned), and people who have no idea how to play, and have no idea what they are about to get into.

For people who have played MMOs before, it's fairly common knowledge that there is probably information out there in cyber space that will help you with your build, explain how to do a dungeon, explain how to do a trial, etc. I would say that in most cases, if a new player looks up this info and does their best to follow the advice, they can probably clear most level appropriate content - even without CPs. Of course, actually running the content is a better way to learn than watching a video, so I agree that more vets need to be patient and help teach.

Now, you might say that someone shouldn't HAVE to go out on the net to learn how to play a game, and I can agree with that to an extent. However, it is the way it is. If a person is having a hard time with some aspect of the game, I would hope they would go looking for a solution. They could come here and ask for advice, or search for info on the net. I think everyone should be responsible for at least attempting to find out why things are going so wrong for them.

Since we probably have a lot of players here that are new to MMOs, maybe they are not aware of the large amount of info that is available on the net for most games. Maybe they should put an in game "tip" on the loading screen that says something like "if you need help, check our forums or one of our many fan sites". Now, maybe that IS a tip on there already - I really don't know, I haven't read those in ages. If it's already on there, maybe it needs to be a little more prominent - maybe send new players a "welcome" letter with that hint in it.

If new players take it upon themselves to go in search for answers, and vet players take it upon themselves to teach whenever possible, I think we would see a lot of these issues go away.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

QuebraRegra wrote: »

LOL

This takes me back to a time when a huge chunk of the community denied that CPs were a consequential factor at all in terms of game balance. Well I guess we see how that worked out now?

Glad people are finally realizing the damage the CP system has done to this game. With so much power coming to your character from CP, the removal of softcaps, and attribute stacking, the controls have to go somewhere.


All for the false illusion of your character "progressing" even though you KNOW its a meaningless vertical progression treadmill.

The true cost of the CP system is skills and gear getting nerf after nerf after nerf.

Almost every class this balance patch has received a "power creep balancing" nerf. I hope people are finally realizing the price of the CP system and how it is slowly sucking the life out of unique skills and gear.

With 600CP, you can now put more points into thaumaturge or elfborn. I wonder how much this had to do with the radiant nerf.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

@VinyParsley2016 and @Reykice

I think these posts, even if trying to be funny, are some of the most toxic things I have ever seen on the forums. If you mentality is simply to kick on site, then I honestly believe your group finder privileges should be revoked/suspended (something ZOS should look into). You are beyond insane if you expect every group finder dungeon to be a quick speed run. Join a guild, and perhaps you can find people to carry you a little better.

EldritchPenguin

VinyParsley2016 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Maybe we should replace the starter zone with a place called Joy Divisions school for pugs. Haha. I agree for the most part with everything you said. If I have any pushback it's that you might be over stating the CP issue just a bit. Take 4 experienced players and remove their CP, and they will still be able to clear the vast majority of content.

Don't get me wrong, CP makes a huge difference and perhaps they put to much power in these trees. I would not be opposed to decreasing the gap between a CP 1 and 561, but I do think there should be a meaningful difference or what's the point.

I think the most important thing you hit on is that this game is absolutely horrible at bridging the gap between story mode (that's a good term for it) and veteran mode. I have similar screen shots from tanking pledges with group DPS less than 20k and more adds on the screen than I thought were possible. DPS meters and addons like combat metrics should absolutely be in game for all to see. It is impossible to improve your build if you don't objectively know how much damage you are doing.

Hopefully the addition of test dummies will go a long way. I would also like to see a basic quest for each role that you must complete before you queue for a group finder. These quests would explain some basic mechanics like red circles, the difference between AoE abilities and single target, or why DOTs and buffs/debuffs are important. They could require you to take out a basic trash pack and a more powerful boss type in a reasonable amount of time, and offer suggestions when you fail. The tank quest would go through how aggro works, etc. These quests could even go as far as to suggest a basic cookie cutter front bar for each type of build. Hey mr. first time DPS, try this bar that offers a spam skill, an aoe skill, a dot, and a buff or two.

Your fault, all your fault!
I told you guys million times - Kick the low level and low cp guys at the beginning! It helps you, and helps them.
I think, maybe, it is time to feed my old thread again

How could it possibly help low CP guys if you kick them? The best way to learn dungeon mechanics is to run dungeons. If they get kicked from every single dungeon that they try to do, then how the hell can they possibly be expected to learn the mechanics? Not to mention that they probably wouldn't want to even attempt running a dungeon anymore, because they know they'll just get kicked by judgmental people.

Dawnblade

Power creep related to CP in content tuned to less than max CP power levels is an issue, and as the OP stated, content CANNOT be balanced for both 10 CP (or combat boosted CP 160) and 600 CP - so no matter where they drawn the balancing line, it will be over-tuned for some and under-tuned for others.

Related are issues with poor abilities bloating class / weapon trees, wonky 'systems' that aren't communicated in the game itself like animation cancelling to gain more damage, and the lack of data provided by the game on a players performance.

Unless they drastically reduce the power derived from CP and / or create tiered content tuned to CP power bands, content will continue to be under-tuned for high CP players and over-tuned for low CP players.

Options outside of removing CP or making it something less powerful could include making all daily / group finder instances capped and tuned for CP 160 (or even provide much higher rewards / chances for better traits / etc in capped version) - meaning if you want the daily reward / group finder / better loot bonus, then no over-powering it by using maxed CP in content tuned for much less.

Most likley they will do nothing but continue to increase CP to keep the grinders grinding, and just toss minor tweaks (or as coming with the next update - global power nerfs) around in a vain attempt to provide a balanced game, leaving all sides frustrated with more and more 'kick the low CP' player posts in the forums and less new players sticking around.

magnusthorek

This is why whenever I need to farm non-trial gear I do on my tank.

When running after BSW I pugged CoA a lot. Got in average groups, moderate groups, terrible groups (in which I had to DPS a bit the number of trash packs) but also good ones, and several of the good ones were made of low levels.

This game has the worst teaching I ever seen. I'm not saying it should give away mechanics in a silver plate, but back there in the tutorial some scene freezing with hints like "hey, you there, see those sparks in enemy? It's a heavy attack! Block or roll!" would avoid MANY mistakes.

Or when you go for your first time dungeon: "hey there! This is a group content and it's harder than the rest. You may get punched a lot but if there's someone healing in your group, stay close! Don't move around like if you were running off your taxes!"

VoidBlue

I didn't attempt a veteran dungeon until I was around 250-300cp. I just assumed it be too hard and didn't wanna burden other ppl, for me not being able to do my full part. Plus I was still learning the game and all that.

When I did start veteran dungeons I only did 1's (I) until I was around 350-400cp and after I've ran the normal mode afew times just to see the mechanics.

DoccEff

It could help if the gearcap was actually at level 50 and not 50/160cp, and the costs for max level gear wouldn't be that high. That way newer players would have at least the chance to get gear that can compete much earlier.
Still, in longterm there really needs to be some sort of dungeons tutorial. I've had enough cp400 dds in my group who just spam light bow attacks and have more health than the tank...

NewBlacksmurf

Very detailed post.

If I can simplify it Tho the game should offer a filter with pre set cp upon queuing. Not based on being level 50 cause that could go away too as were scaled in dungeons anyways.

-3 options for normal and Vet

1. No cp
2. Cp 160+
3. Cp max

Problem solved or ya know actually remove the veteran system instead of moving it to cp.
CP should be a constellation system that replaces skills.

Just saying it's a lot more basic solution. ImO