Tava's Favor & Bloodspawn Tanks

Veraen

Why is the Ebon Armory such a popular third armor set for tanks running Tava's Favor and Bloodspawn?

I mean, why not further enhance the ultimate generation or resource restoring aspects of the build by using Akaviri Dragonguard for reduced ultimate ability costs, Witchman Armor for a huge infusion of health and stamina when you use an ultimate ability, Hide of the Werewolf for steady additional ultimate generation, or even Lamia's Song for a hefty group heal when you use an ultimate ability?

code65536

Because the extra health for the entire group is nice. The biggest DPS loss is death, and it means that DPS with lower health levels (e.g., a NMG stam DPS with 7p medium will only have around 16K health without ebon) don't have to sacrifice as much of their main pool to bring their health up to a safe level.

Only one tank will need Ebon, though, so the other tank will be free to wear some other DPS-boosting set like Alkosh.

mad0ni0n

Veraen wrote: »

Why is the Ebon Armory such a popular third armor set for tanks running Tava's Favor and Bloodspawn?

I mean, why not further enhance the ultimate generation or resource restoring aspects of the build by using Akaviri Dragonguard for reduced ultimate ability costs, Witchman Armor for a huge infusion of health and stamina when you use an ultimate ability, Hide of the Werewolf for steady additional ultimate generation, or even Lamia's Song for a hefty group heal when you use an ultimate ability?

Tanks with Tava's favor already produce more than enough ulitmate to fit into the warhorn rotation in trials, no need to reduce the cost further. More resource recovery would be nice but it's more important to buff the group health and/or damage with ebon and alkosh.

Veraen

Thanks a bunch guys. I'll work on getting Ebon/Alkosh for trials then, and experiment with those other sets for less critical situations. Out of curiosity, how does the warhorn rotation usually work in trials? Like, which roles typically slot warhorn and how do they communicate sequence and timing?

Izaki

No point in wearing Tava's though... Might as well just wear Alkosh and Ebon along with Bloodspawn. At least that's the tanks I play with do. One is wearing Ebon, Alkosh and Bloodspawn and the other is wearing Alkosh, Powerful Assault and Sentinel or Rkugamz (or some other monster set that buffs the group). Usually 2 people is enough for the Alkosh debuff to have a decent uptime.

The Warhorn rotation in trials is communicated yes, and usually every 30 seconds a Warhorn should go off.

Veraen

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

No point in wearing Tava's though... Might as well just wear Alkosh and Ebon along with Bloodspawn. At least that's the tanks I play with do.

The Warhorn rotation in trials is communicated yes, and usually every 30 seconds a Warhorn should go off.

Interesting, thanks! So is it usually just the tanks that rotate warhorn or can it really be any player so long as there is constant warhorn buff for the fights?

Izaki

Veraen wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

No point in wearing Tava's though... Might as well just wear Alkosh and Ebon along with Bloodspawn. At least that's the tanks I play with do.

The Warhorn rotation in trials is communicated yes, and usually every 30 seconds a Warhorn should go off.

Interesting, thanks! So is it usually just the tanks that rotate warhorn or can it really be any player so long as there is constant warhorn buff for the fights?

Its both tanks and both healers that rotate warhorn. Usually every group has some general outlines like tank 1 then healer 1 then tank 2 then healer 2 (or something like that). At that point, its all communication. Whenever someone has a horn, he usually signals it to the group and if no one else has one ready, he blows it (lol). The more often you can get warhorns to go off, the better. The Major Force buff only lasts for 9.5 seconds so the more uptime you have on it, the higher the DPS, the higher the DPS, the easier the boss becomes.

Basically as long as your resource pools stay buffed, the rotation is good.

Veraen

Thanks for helping get me ready for trials. You da man!

ryanborror

Veraen wrote: »

Thanks a bunch guys. I'll work on getting Ebon/Alkosh for trials then, and experiment with those other sets for less critical situations. Out of curiosity, how does the warhorn rotation usually work in trials? Like, which roles typically slot warhorn and how do they communicate sequence and timing?

Usually both tanks and healers will run warhorn and maybe another dps. You at least want it up every 30 seconds and optimally every 9.5 but no one actually does that. Obviously the more people running it, the more often you can cast it. Besides the healer, certain classes like sorcs and nightblades are often chosen as they have "less useful" ultimates. In most trial groups, a tank will be able to have a warhorn up without needing tavas or ultimate producing sets. However if you do more 4 man content, these sets may benefit you more as you will not likely have a group of people also running warhorn

WuffyCerulei

I'm running 5 Akiviri Dragonguard for the 15% reduced ultimate cost. With that and gaining Ultimate from Bloodspawn, Tava's, Heroic Slash, and Nightblade passives (you heard me), I can easily get Warhorn up.

paulsimonps

After watching @Woeler 's video on Monster sets I started to crunch some numbers. And there was one thing I noticed, first off in regards to Bloodspawn I agree. In a trials with 4 people running warhorns it doesn't make or break anything, and if you rely on its proc to keep a certain Warhorn rotation up you are gonna be disappointed. So I don't recommend it for Trials, and I have never worn it myself, ever. There are tons of ways to gain Ultimate as a tank but whats more important in a raid situation is how are the healers gonna get Ultimate? They got far less ways of doing that. And so simply having a 1-2-3-4 rotation for your warhorns will leave gaps. But I think if one were to do something similar to this it would work better: 1-2-3-1-4-3-1-2-3-1-4-3. 1 and 3 being Tanks and 2 and 4 being healers. And I would give about 14 to 15 seconds between each warhorn 13 if your tanks are really good but its still mostly about the healers.

So I don't recommends neither Tava's nor Bloodspawn. Myself I run 5p Alkosh, 5p Dragon, 1p Chokethorn and 1p Shadowrend. The last 2 I run because combining their magicka regen buff with the one from Dragon as well as being a vampire and having Barrier slotted on one bar I can reach about 1500 magicka regen without a single Jewelry enchant. But Monster sets are more a taste thing, I used to do Lord Warden but I noticed there were very few times where other Allies were close enough to be effected by it and I didn't need it for myself. I could go Mighty Chodan to clear a slot open but as a DK I like the extra healing received I get having Hardened armor on my bar.

If you did the 5p Dragon 5p Alkosh I would recommend that your off tank has 5p Ebon to help the group and 5p Powerful assault to give a nice buff for damage. But there are a ton of ways to combine both tanks and if your group is set up before hand like a progression group then its up to the leader and the tanks to figure out the best combo for your team.

TL;DR: But to answer OP's Original question. Its cause stacking too much into Ultimate generation for one tank while ignoring other sets that will help the groups survivabiltiy and or DPS isn't as favorable. Ebon is too great of a buff to not have for HM trials and even just regular Veteran Trials where you can have 2 tanks using multiple combinations of sets. A dead Damage Dealer deals no Damage.

Veraen

Absolutely incredible advice. You all have really taught me a lot about how to weigh these different factors. I've learned that so long as I can be a regular part of the war horn rotation, then using other armor sets that provide a benefit to the entire trial group is the way to go.

o0Velius

When my guild first started out I ran A massive Ult building Sets.
5 Tavas, 5 Akaviri Dragonguard and 2 Bloodspawn. I always had an ult ready.

However now that my Guild is more experienced and has a great warhorn rotation; ult regen is near pointless. As I cannot/should not. use my warhorn tell it is my turn within the rotation.

This leaves these sets useless, unless I am tanking the Axes in vAA.. ( in witch case you do not need the Alkosh for)

I currently run. Alkosh, ebon and 2 Warden. All have extreme use for the team and all benefit the whole group. Witch is what a Tank should be doing. Support classes are there to benefit the whole group. I notice a huge difference when I run ebon. My members with 15-16k health go up 1k and they actually die less ( You would think it wouldn't make a huge difference but it actually allows the healers to grab them before they die.)

Over all Alkosh and Ebon provide a better support for the group; I noticed it right away after I started using them.

Veraen

MrsVelius wrote: »

When my guild first started out I ran A massive Ult building Sets.
5 Tavas, 5 Akaviri Dragonguard and 2 Bloodspawn. I always had an ult ready.

That's exactly what I'm running and it's true, I'm able to bust a 250 ultimate ability a few times on each boss. It really feels amazing, and I don't really think it's a self-centered strategy either because I'm either using aggressive war horn to boost the damage of the group, or using magma armor to enter god mode and shield the group. However, I do feel like it might be overkill.

MrsVelius wrote: »

However now that my Guild is more experienced and has a great warhorn rotation; ult regen is near pointless. As I cannot/should not. use my warhorn tell it is my turn within the rotation. This leaves these sets useless, unless I am tanking the Axes in vAA.. ( in witch case you do not need the Alkosh for)

This is a perfect example of how there is no perfect setup. It totally depends on what content you're running and what your group is like. I'd say having a collection of gear you can use for various situations is the most advantageous.

MrsVelius wrote: »

I currently run. Alkosh, ebon and 2 Warden. All have extreme use for the team and all benefit the whole group. Witch is what a Tank should be doing. Support classes are there to benefit the whole group. I notice a huge difference when I run ebon. My members with 15-16k health go up 1k and they actually die less ( You would think it wouldn't make a huge difference but it actually allows the healers to grab them before they die.)

I'm happy to hear this because seriously, +1k health wasn't blowing my mind. Sure, spread across 12 people that's a lot of health, but just knowing it can provide an extra couple seconds for a healer to save somebody is all I need to hear.

MrsVelius wrote: »

Over all Alkosh and Ebon provide a better support for the group; I noticed it right away after I started using them.

I'll start farming for my sets soon and being these helpful benefits to my trial groups soon!

One last question (while I have such an experienced tank listening): What's your take on weapon traits and glyphs?

Do you recommend using an infused weapon with crusher glyph or something else like defending trait with shield glyph? I feel like I should be using defending trait on my weapon for the resists but I'm already over 30k on my resists so it seems like maybe I could sacrifice a little bit there for something that would benefit my group more such as crusher.

Izaki

paulsimonps wrote: »

After watching @Woeler 's video on Monster sets I started to crunch some numbers. And there was one thing I noticed, first off in regards to Bloodspawn I agree. In a trials with 4 people running warhorns it doesn't make or break anything, and if you rely on its proc to keep a certain Warhorn rotation up you are gonna be disappointed. So I don't recommend it for Trials, and I have never worn it myself, ever. There are tons of ways to gain Ultimate as a tank but whats more important in a raid situation is how are the healers gonna get Ultimate? They got far less ways of doing that. And so simply having a 1-2-3-4 rotation for your warhorns will leave gaps. But I think if one were to do something similar to this it would work better: 1-2-3-1-4-3-1-2-3-1-4-3. 1 and 3 being Tanks and 2 and 4 being healers. And I would give about 14 to 15 seconds between each warhorn 13 if your tanks are really good but its still mostly about the healers.

So I don't recommends neither Tava's nor Bloodspawn. Myself I run 5p Alkosh, 5p Dragon, 1p Chokethorn and 1p Shadowrend. The last 2 I run because combining their magicka regen buff with the one from Dragon as well as being a vampire and having Barrier slotted on one bar I can reach about 1500 magicka regen without a single Jewelry enchant. But Monster sets are more a taste thing, I used to do Lord Warden but I noticed there were very few times where other Allies were close enough to be effected by it and I didn't need it for myself. I could go Mighty Chodan to clear a slot open but as a DK I like the extra healing received I get having Hardened armor on my bar.

If you did the 5p Dragon 5p Alkosh I would recommend that your off tank has 5p Ebon to help the group and 5p Powerful assault to give a nice buff for damage. But there are a ton of ways to combine both tanks and if your group is set up before hand like a progression group then its up to the leader and the tanks to figure out the best combo for your team.

TL;DR: But to answer OP's Original question. Its cause stacking too much into Ultimate generation for one tank while ignoring other sets that will help the groups survivabiltiy and or DPS isn't as favorable. Ebon is too great of a buff to not have for HM trials and even just regular Veteran Trials where you can have 2 tanks using multiple combinations of sets. A dead Damage Dealer deals no Damage.

You run 5pc Dragon? You ain't tanking for me, I'd much rather have you get a chance to proc 15 ultimate along with some resistances (procs very often), and provide the group with an Ebon buff instead of a 15% reduction on a Warhorn that you're going to get quickly anyway. Sure you can have the off tank running Ebon, but you'd lose a second Alkosh buff, unless you have a stamina DPS wearing it. What do you put on your jewelry if its not magicka recovery?... Its really the only thing worth using.
At least run a 2 pc monster set that helps your group not just your recovery. Also why do you have Barrier slotted on each bar? You should be pumping out Warhorns, Barrier is the most useless ultimate in trials as the shield doesn't even last 2 seconds in any HM trial (or non HM for that matter).

You're very right about the Warhorn rotations though. But every group has to figure one out for themselves.

The reason for Tava's and Bloodspawn not being optimal together, is because they work against each other. One requires you to take damage, while the other one requires you to dodge the damage that could have procced Bloodspawn. And Bloodspawn although redundant, is still very good as it procs almost off cool down.

The best universal combo for 2 tanks in a team stays Bloodspawn/Alkosh/Ebon + Monster Set/Alkosh/Powerful Assault. I don't personally think that having Alkosh on the off-tank makes much sense as he often is separated from the group, but for the most part it works out okayish.

Veraen

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

The reason for Tava's and Bloodspawn not being optimal together, is because they work against each other. One requires you to take damage, while the other one requires you to dodge the damage that could have procced Bloodspawn. And Bloodspawn although redundant, is still very good as it procs almost off cool down.

I appreciate all the great information you provided. I'm excited to get a set of Alkosh and totally see why it's so desirable.

I'm a little bit puzzled by your opinion above regarding how Tavas and Bloodspawn are suboptimal. I mean, it's not like you get to choose when you get hit or when you dodge, and they don't interfere with each other either. I think the idea with wearing both Tava's and Bloodspawn is that you have a chance to generate extra ultimate whether you take damage or you dodge. The point being that the wider the variety of scenarios you can proc the two sets gives more chances to generate ultimate. From a pure ultimate generating perspective, I think it's a badass combo!

paulsimonps

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

After watching @Woeler 's video on Monster sets I started to crunch some numbers. And there was one thing I noticed, first off in regards to Bloodspawn I agree. In a trials with 4 people running warhorns it doesn't make or break anything, and if you rely on its proc to keep a certain Warhorn rotation up you are gonna be disappointed. So I don't recommend it for Trials, and I have never worn it myself, ever. There are tons of ways to gain Ultimate as a tank but whats more important in a raid situation is how are the healers gonna get Ultimate? They got far less ways of doing that. And so simply having a 1-2-3-4 rotation for your warhorns will leave gaps. But I think if one were to do something similar to this it would work better: 1-2-3-1-4-3-1-2-3-1-4-3. 1 and 3 being Tanks and 2 and 4 being healers. And I would give about 14 to 15 seconds between each warhorn 13 if your tanks are really good but its still mostly about the healers.

So I don't recommends neither Tava's nor Bloodspawn. Myself I run 5p Alkosh, 5p Dragon, 1p Chokethorn and 1p Shadowrend. The last 2 I run because combining their magicka regen buff with the one from Dragon as well as being a vampire and having Barrier slotted on one bar I can reach about 1500 magicka regen without a single Jewelry enchant. But Monster sets are more a taste thing, I used to do Lord Warden but I noticed there were very few times where other Allies were close enough to be effected by it and I didn't need it for myself. I could go Mighty Chodan to clear a slot open but as a DK I like the extra healing received I get having Hardened armor on my bar.

If you did the 5p Dragon 5p Alkosh I would recommend that your off tank has 5p Ebon to help the group and 5p Powerful assault to give a nice buff for damage. But there are a ton of ways to combine both tanks and if your group is set up before hand like a progression group then its up to the leader and the tanks to figure out the best combo for your team.

TL;DR: But to answer OP's Original question. Its cause stacking too much into Ultimate generation for one tank while ignoring other sets that will help the groups survivabiltiy and or DPS isn't as favorable. Ebon is too great of a buff to not have for HM trials and even just regular Veteran Trials where you can have 2 tanks using multiple combinations of sets. A dead Damage Dealer deals no Damage.

You run 5pc Dragon? You ain't tanking for me, I'd much rather have you get a chance to proc 15 ultimate along with some resistances (procs very often), and provide the group with an Ebon buff instead of a 15% reduction on a Warhorn that you're going to get quickly anyway. Sure you can have the off tank running Ebon, but you'd lose a second Alkosh buff, unless you have a stamina DPS wearing it. What do you put on your jewelry if its not magicka recovery?... Its really the only thing worth using.
At least run a 2 pc monster set that helps your group not just your recovery. Also why do you have Barrier slotted on each bar? You should be pumping out Warhorns, Barrier is the most useless ultimate in trials as the shield doesn't even last 2 seconds in any HM trial (or non HM for that matter).

You're very right about the Warhorn rotations though. But every group has to figure one out for themselves.

The reason for Tava's and Bloodspawn not being optimal together, is because they work against each other. One requires you to take damage, while the other one requires you to dodge the damage that could have procced Bloodspawn. And Bloodspawn although redundant, is still very good as it procs almost off cool down.

The best universal combo for 2 tanks in a team stays Bloodspawn/Alkosh/Ebon + Monster Set/Alkosh/Powerful Assault. I don't personally think that having Alkosh on the off-tank makes much sense as he often is separated from the group, but for the most part it works out okayish.

You are a funny man. That 15 ulti proc is fricking horrible and the resistance is not to be trusted. It does not procs as often as you think. I have done the math on it and seen it in practice. And I did not go Lord Warden cause in most situations I am not close enough for others to get a bonus out of it and I don't need it myself, the extra magicka regen helps me help the group more with Igneous shields and Chains when needed, less so with chains in trials but yea. And if you could read properly I said I used Barrier on ONE BAR, not both. I get the extra ultimate on one bar that needs it but i never actually use the ultimate, I use Aggressive Horn just like everyone else. And so IMO Bloodspawn is overrated, and I agree with Woelers ideas about it and my math supports it too. Lord Warden only helps during stack and burn fights of which there are extremely few of now, and I don't like to trade away the passives that gets proced when I have hardened armor on to get Mighty Chudan.

And my off tank is the one running Ebon for me cause I can keep the Alkosh up myself but being careful about how I use my Synergies, and I do get plenty of them. A combo of Ebon and Powerful assault works great too.

And I run 3 Block Cost enchants on my bar, with 100p into Shadow ward and 8 sturdy. It brings my block cost down to 88 stamina. With a 5-1-1 I get 900 stamina and magicka back from constitution every 4 sec, and I can get attributed block cost tops every 0.5s which is 8 times max during that 4 sec. 88*8=704 which means I will never lose stamina from blocking. It has served me well. I can use my stamina more freely, that combined with the 1522 magicka recovery I can still have gives me no problem ever to keep my resources up. Its an uncommon set up that works for me. I don't value any of the buffs given by the 2p monster set highly enough to warrant wearing one.

Woeler

paulsimonps wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

After watching @Woeler 's video on Monster sets I started to crunch some numbers. And there was one thing I noticed, first off in regards to Bloodspawn I agree. In a trials with 4 people running warhorns it doesn't make or break anything, and if you rely on its proc to keep a certain Warhorn rotation up you are gonna be disappointed. So I don't recommend it for Trials, and I have never worn it myself, ever. There are tons of ways to gain Ultimate as a tank but whats more important in a raid situation is how are the healers gonna get Ultimate? They got far less ways of doing that. And so simply having a 1-2-3-4 rotation for your warhorns will leave gaps. But I think if one were to do something similar to this it would work better: 1-2-3-1-4-3-1-2-3-1-4-3. 1 and 3 being Tanks and 2 and 4 being healers. And I would give about 14 to 15 seconds between each warhorn 13 if your tanks are really good but its still mostly about the healers.

So I don't recommends neither Tava's nor Bloodspawn. Myself I run 5p Alkosh, 5p Dragon, 1p Chokethorn and 1p Shadowrend. The last 2 I run because combining their magicka regen buff with the one from Dragon as well as being a vampire and having Barrier slotted on one bar I can reach about 1500 magicka regen without a single Jewelry enchant. But Monster sets are more a taste thing, I used to do Lord Warden but I noticed there were very few times where other Allies were close enough to be effected by it and I didn't need it for myself. I could go Mighty Chodan to clear a slot open but as a DK I like the extra healing received I get having Hardened armor on my bar.

If you did the 5p Dragon 5p Alkosh I would recommend that your off tank has 5p Ebon to help the group and 5p Powerful assault to give a nice buff for damage. But there are a ton of ways to combine both tanks and if your group is set up before hand like a progression group then its up to the leader and the tanks to figure out the best combo for your team.

TL;DR: But to answer OP's Original question. Its cause stacking too much into Ultimate generation for one tank while ignoring other sets that will help the groups survivabiltiy and or DPS isn't as favorable. Ebon is too great of a buff to not have for HM trials and even just regular Veteran Trials where you can have 2 tanks using multiple combinations of sets. A dead Damage Dealer deals no Damage.

You run 5pc Dragon? You ain't tanking for me, I'd much rather have you get a chance to proc 15 ultimate along with some resistances (procs very often), and provide the group with an Ebon buff instead of a 15% reduction on a Warhorn that you're going to get quickly anyway. Sure you can have the off tank running Ebon, but you'd lose a second Alkosh buff, unless you have a stamina DPS wearing it. What do you put on your jewelry if its not magicka recovery?... Its really the only thing worth using.
At least run a 2 pc monster set that helps your group not just your recovery. Also why do you have Barrier slotted on each bar? You should be pumping out Warhorns, Barrier is the most useless ultimate in trials as the shield doesn't even last 2 seconds in any HM trial (or non HM for that matter).

You're very right about the Warhorn rotations though. But every group has to figure one out for themselves.

The reason for Tava's and Bloodspawn not being optimal together, is because they work against each other. One requires you to take damage, while the other one requires you to dodge the damage that could have procced Bloodspawn. And Bloodspawn although redundant, is still very good as it procs almost off cool down.

The best universal combo for 2 tanks in a team stays Bloodspawn/Alkosh/Ebon + Monster Set/Alkosh/Powerful Assault. I don't personally think that having Alkosh on the off-tank makes much sense as he often is separated from the group, but for the most part it works out okayish.

You are a funny man. That 15 ulti proc is fricking horrible and the resistance is not to be trusted. It does not procs as often as you think. I have done the math on it and seen it in practice. And I did not go Lord Warden cause in most situations I am not close enough for others to get a bonus out of it and I don't need it myself, the extra magicka regen helps me help the group more with Igneous shields and Chains when needed, less so with chains in trials but yea. And if you could read properly I said I used Barrier on ONE BAR, not both. I get the extra ultimate on one bar that needs it but i never actually use the ultimate, I use Aggressive Horn just like everyone else. And so IMO Bloodspawn is overrated, and I agree with Woelers ideas about it and my math supports it too. Lord Warden only helps during stack and burn fights of which there are extremely few of now, and I don't like to trade away the passives that gets proced when I have hardened armor on to get Mighty Chudan.

And my off tank is the one running Ebon for me cause I can keep the Alkosh up myself but being careful about how I use my Synergies, and I do get plenty of them. A combo of Ebon and Powerful assault works great too.

And I run 3 Block Cost enchants on my bar, with 100p into Shadow ward and 8 sturdy. It brings my block cost down to 88 stamina. With a 5-1-1 I get 900 stamina and magicka back from constitution every 4 sec, and I can get attributed block cost tops every 0.5s which is 8 times max during that 4 sec. 88*8=704 which means I will never lose stamina from blocking. It has served me well. I can use my stamina more freely, that combined with the 1522 magicka recovery I can still have gives me no problem ever to keep my resources up. Its an uncommon set up that works for me. I don't value any of the buffs given by the 2p monster set highly enough to warrant wearing one.

Told ya man, Blood Spawn is overrated AF. I still need to farm for those 2 pieces with the magicka regen and try it out, but I'm too lazy.