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Upcoming Patch Notes - Sneak Peak

  • HoloYoitsu
    HoloYoitsu
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.
    Immovable speed pots.
  • Manoekin
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    HoloYoitsu wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.
    Immovable speed pots.

    Fair enough, though it's not the only thing I've seen used.
  • Satiar
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.

    Well yeah, 2v30 survivability is troublesome. That's just math. What you have is sheer firepower, which means when it matters (like a choke or in a keep) you have the ability as a 1-2 man to really hurt or outright destroy a group 15x your size. You still have to pick your battles, choose areas of combat that are favorable to you.

    The idea is that unlike the Barrier era, you have the capability to greatly impact the battle solo or in very small groups. The odds should still be heavily against you, you just have a shot if you do it all right.

    This is also how it was back in the old days with dynamic ult. I much preferred the ability to outlast and wear down larger groups with more ulti than what we have where everything dies INSTANTLY or I die INSTANTLY. It's why I'm continually against people who keep wanting ZoS to push up damage, the gameplay is as dumb and one dimensional as it can be, please let's push for a different path.

    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
    Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost



  • Manoekin
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.

    Well yeah, 2v30 survivability is troublesome. That's just math. What you have is sheer firepower, which means when it matters (like a choke or in a keep) you have the ability as a 1-2 man to really hurt or outright destroy a group 15x your size. You still have to pick your battles, choose areas of combat that are favorable to you.

    The idea is that unlike the Barrier era, you have the capability to greatly impact the battle solo or in very small groups. The odds should still be heavily against you, you just have a shot if you do it all right.

    This is also how it was back in the old days with dynamic ult. I much preferred the ability to outlast and wear down larger groups with more ulti than what we have where everything dies INSTANTLY or I die INSTANTLY. It's why I'm continually against people who keep wanting ZoS to push up damage, the gameplay is as dumb and one dimensional as it can be, please let's push for a different path.

    We'll probably never go back to something like we had with dynamic ult where numbers weren't a huge deal even if you didn't kill everyone instantly. It sucks lol. Holding up in a cubby and just fighting whoever came in was fun times, now with destro ult and negate the way it is you basically can't do that unless you build pure tank.
  • PenguinInACan
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.

    Well yeah, 2v30 survivability is troublesome. That's just math. What you have is sheer firepower, which means when it matters (like a choke or in a keep) you have the ability as a 1-2 man to really hurt or outright destroy a group 15x your size. You still have to pick your battles, choose areas of combat that are favorable to you.

    The idea is that unlike the Barrier era, you have the capability to greatly impact the battle solo or in very small groups. The odds should still be heavily against you, you just have a shot if you do it all right.

    This is also how it was back in the old days with dynamic ult. I much preferred the ability to outlast and wear down larger groups with more ulti than what we have where everything dies INSTANTLY or I die INSTANTLY. It's why I'm continually against people who keep wanting ZoS to push up damage, the gameplay is as dumb and one dimensional as it can be, please let's push for a different path.

    We'll probably never go back to something like we had with dynamic ult where numbers weren't a huge deal even if you didn't kill everyone instantly. It sucks lol. Holding up in a cubby and just fighting whoever came in was fun times, now with destro ult and negate the way it is you basically can't do that unless you build pure tank.

    All we need are flashes and we can have this...
    Marek
  • Satiar
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.

    Well yeah, 2v30 survivability is troublesome. That's just math. What you have is sheer firepower, which means when it matters (like a choke or in a keep) you have the ability as a 1-2 man to really hurt or outright destroy a group 15x your size. You still have to pick your battles, choose areas of combat that are favorable to you.

    The idea is that unlike the Barrier era, you have the capability to greatly impact the battle solo or in very small groups. The odds should still be heavily against you, you just have a shot if you do it all right.

    This is also how it was back in the old days with dynamic ult. I much preferred the ability to outlast and wear down larger groups with more ulti than what we have where everything dies INSTANTLY or I die INSTANTLY. It's why I'm continually against people who keep wanting ZoS to push up damage, the gameplay is as dumb and one dimensional as it can be, please let's push for a different path.

    We'll probably never go back to something like we had with dynamic ult where numbers weren't a huge deal even if you didn't kill everyone instantly. It sucks lol. Holding up in a cubby and just fighting whoever came in was fun times, now with destro ult and negate the way it is you basically can't do that unless you build pure tank.

    The way I see it, ZoS is primarily responsible but they've also been pushed that way by the community. Like your video, the implication was that damage wasn't high enough: remove the aoe cap, get more damage! And to me that's a frustrating call, that we're at a point where we have the kind of firepower that can literally 1-2v30 in the right spot and we're still asking for more.

    I want to blame ZoS for the *** meta but there were many voices pushing them this direction.
    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
    Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost



  • ChrisXO
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    What specifically was dynamic ult?
    - ad scrub -
  • nordsavage
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    Kutsuu wrote: »
    Much better change for proc sets than I was expecting. This is going to hurt PVE DPS from monster sets where people typically have 75-85% crit chance, but whatever.

    This changes very little in PvP. People do not go into PvP with crit in mind. Those sets still stack and fire off together.
    I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • Wollust
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    Still hoping they delete tremor scale
    Susano'o

    Zerg Squad
  • Wollust
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    ChrisXO wrote: »
    What specifically was dynamic ult?

    Current ult gen is static, also called major heroism. Gain the buff via LA/HA, block rolldodge or healing and you'll be gaining the same ult ticks (3 in this case) over a certain amount of time. Back then when we didn't have the major/minor system ult gain was dynamic, which meant it was built up on multiple factors, but long story short: dynamic ultimate rewarded outnumbered players by giving them (much) more ultimate during the fight. Which led to ridiculous situations where sorcs would pump out negate every 10s, dks drop banners every 15s and nbs standing in their veil while batswarming and so on.
    It was a good thing because risk equaled reward, although it definitely needed some tweaking on the numbers. But ZoS being ZoS just removed it completely.
    Edited by Wollust on December 29, 2016 12:45AM
    Susano'o

    Zerg Squad
  • ChrisXO
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    Thanks! I can see why people look back on it with nostalgia.
    - ad scrub -
  • Manoekin
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.

    Well yeah, 2v30 survivability is troublesome. That's just math. What you have is sheer firepower, which means when it matters (like a choke or in a keep) you have the ability as a 1-2 man to really hurt or outright destroy a group 15x your size. You still have to pick your battles, choose areas of combat that are favorable to you.

    The idea is that unlike the Barrier era, you have the capability to greatly impact the battle solo or in very small groups. The odds should still be heavily against you, you just have a shot if you do it all right.

    This is also how it was back in the old days with dynamic ult. I much preferred the ability to outlast and wear down larger groups with more ulti than what we have where everything dies INSTANTLY or I die INSTANTLY. It's why I'm continually against people who keep wanting ZoS to push up damage, the gameplay is as dumb and one dimensional as it can be, please let's push for a different path.

    We'll probably never go back to something like we had with dynamic ult where numbers weren't a huge deal even if you didn't kill everyone instantly. It sucks lol. Holding up in a cubby and just fighting whoever came in was fun times, now with destro ult and negate the way it is you basically can't do that unless you build pure tank.

    The way I see it, ZoS is primarily responsible but they've also been pushed that way by the community. Like your video, the implication was that damage wasn't high enough: remove the aoe cap, get more damage! And to me that's a frustrating call, that we're at a point where we have the kind of firepower that can literally 1-2v30 in the right spot and we're still asking for more.

    I want to blame ZoS for the *** meta but there were many voices pushing them this direction.

    They could have just removed AOE caps when damage wasn't the way it is right now. Like, when we asked for it. I don't like the concept of AOE caps in any case so please remove them.
    Edited by Manoekin on December 29, 2016 12:51AM
  • Manoekin
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    ChrisXO wrote: »
    Thanks! I can see why people look back on it with nostalgia.

    You got ultimate for every person you hit, so the more people you were fighting the more ultimate you gained. To expand on the explanation.
  • IxSTALKERxI
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    Removing AoE caps or atleast reducing them is a good change. It means we don't need unbalanced stuff like vicious death and destro ultimate. Hopefully some of these things get adjusted with the change.
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
    Laser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of Blackwater
    Former Emperor x11 campaign cycles
    Venatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    HoloYoitsu wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.
    Immovable speed pots.

    I run these on my stam sorc. It's OP :)
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
    Laser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of Blackwater
    Former Emperor x11 campaign cycles
    Venatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel
  • IxSTALKERxI
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    Also that vid you linked mano shows lack of dps compared to their healing more so than aoe caps imo.

    This is a much better example of aoe caps in action:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z1Oau35tn0
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
    Laser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of Blackwater
    Former Emperor x11 campaign cycles
    Venatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel
  • Xsorus
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Ernest145 wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

    I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

    For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

    I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

    I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

    I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

    I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

    I find the AOE cap argument frustrating because we test this ***. Running VE raids again is brand new, and we experiment with damage, what can we take and not take. Certain old spots and strats don't work because properly specced burst is so high you will literally just die when you move the group there. Hell, I've even stood my group in stacks to see if piling up mitigation vs high DPS bombers like Havoc works (hint, it doesnt). I've been decimated by good bombs in bad spots, and I've been able to burst groups of 30+ with literally two people. Damage is high. It goes through block. Offense has vastly outstripped defense.

    If Mano wants to use a video as proof, he needs to use one that actually shows AOE caps in effect.

    Anyways. I don't even dislike the idea of removing AOE caps. But this change just feeds into the mentality of MOOR DAMAGE, and I'd rather ZoS not get praise for continuing down this stupid path of escalating DPS.

    EDIT: Like, I am fully confident one VD specced Nightblade can kill 40 stacked players with one bomb. AOE caps are a great talking point but they don't mean anything anymore

    I don't know about One VD specced NB; I know i've tried it (don't have Destro Ult yet though) and I wasn't able to get it off very well......Probably with Destro Ult though I could see it being possible...

    2 NBs though would easily be able to do it though for sure.

    It's Destro ult. Goes through block, and if specced right you can get over 5000 Spell Damage while wearing VD. It reallllly hurts.


    Edit: I really hate being glass cannon, but as a NB nothing else makes sense atm. Why debuff with something like Fasallas when I can just blow you up ?

    Yea I've not gotten around to really trying it...I can do a Willpower/Clever Alchemist/VD build that would probably work.

    Right now i'm doing a melee nb magicka build

    Necro/Willpower/CA....can get Soul Harvest over 20k Delve which wrecks people..even Concealed Blade is critting 8k
  • Joy_Division
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    Also that vid you linked mano shows lack of dps compared to their healing more so than aoe caps imo.

    This is a much better example of aoe caps in action:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z1Oau35tn0

    Lol 100k+ health :smiley:
  • Volrion
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    Lord_Hev wrote: »
    *Gives us things to spend AP on*


    *Ensures it's completely diluted RNG pool and only drop crap blue and green quality jewelry*


    Yeah, thanks ZOS. Just what we asked for! :|

    I *** know, right?! Just terrible...

    So, we still have nothing worthwhile to spend our AP on. Thanks, ZOS.

    Also; Why no global cool down on proc sets?

    I'm sorry, but these are terrible changes.
  • Thraben
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    Valencer wrote: »
    Well, it's really nice seeing their reasoning on some of the mechanics that are currently in the game. Have to give credit where credit is due



    I think loosening AoE caps will be a boon to organised groups, which doesnt seem to be ZOS' intention...

    Even worse, it encourages groups to work with a "1-2 Stamsorc, 2 Bombers, Rest Templars with Deto ulti" setup. Which is bad for everyone.
    Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • Sugaroverdose
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    Thraben wrote: »
    Valencer wrote: »
    Well, it's really nice seeing their reasoning on some of the mechanics that are currently in the game. Have to give credit where credit is due



    I think loosening AoE caps will be a boon to organised groups, which doesnt seem to be ZOS' intention...

    Even worse, it encourages groups to work with a "1-2 Stamsorc, 2 Bombers, Rest Templars with Deto ulti" setup. Which is bad for everyone.
    If group made specifically to wipe blobing zerg, then it should looks something like that what's bad in it?
  • Armitas
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    I think the Crit removal might be better than I initially thought.
    Crit_zpsowwbxnxj.png
    Look at the Valkin Skoria Crit. That is with 2250 crit resistance. non crit 2770 crit 5566. (variance may include a lack of minor maim and major resolve/ward)
    Edited by Armitas on December 30, 2016 3:19PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    Nerf Dragon Blood, please.
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

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