Upcoming Patch Notes - Sneak Peak

ManDraKE

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

KisoValley

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sorry, not a fan of the proc set changes.

Still can get hit with multiple procs. Viper still way too good. PvE changes unnessary and harmful. Treats all the procs set, good and bad, the same making the marginal ones useless. It's lazy, unimaginative, borad-brushed, and should not be applauded.

I do like the rest of the changes (call me when i can mount after 6 seconds though). As much as I say the AoE CAP thing is two years too late, fix the destro ult first.

If you think about it - apart from completely altering what the item does (ie converting it to a dot) - it was the only thing they could to to prevent things like 9k skoria 12k selenes or 10k velidreth hits from happening.

I think on top of the nocrit some sets should be converted into dots (mainly viper tremorscale selenes).

They could have done quite a few things actually. Make this change a part of Battlespirit for one.

Also, I don;t have an issue with getting hit with those, my issues was gettting hit with them at the same time and only two specific proc sets, Viper and Tremorscale.

It´s kinda funny - i have way more issue fighting people with selenes than i have with viper + tremor. Tremor only being really annoying because of the insane snare on it.

I do think ilambris and grothdarr needed readjustment in pve aswell. They do provide up to 10% of a players total raiddps and are the main reasons (besides destroult) why stamina builds are no longer considered into trial groups.
Which is also what leads me to believe why they changed it for pvp and pve and meant to change it for both.

Edit: I 100% agree viper is still too good of a set because of it´s 100% proccchance.

Ask most of the top tier PVErs and they'll tell you the same thing. Magicka builds have much more utility than a stamina build. Certain stamina builds still do more DPS than the top tier magicka builds even with ilambris/grothdar in play, but they don't offer enough utility. Even before ilambris/grothdar came into the game and stamina DPS was insane compared to magicka, the best guilds only took 2-3 at max stamina builds because they just don't offer the utility that magicka builds do.

It has always been like this and probably always will be unless ZOS do major changes to the utility of stamina/magicka builds in raids.

Kutsuu

Valencer wrote: »

Also having trouble understanding this war against "stack on crown" groups, since no guild groups actually literally stack on top of each other anymore. Organised groups move *with* the crown, sure, but if youre trying to remove that playstyle then what exactly is left? This is how group play works.

You just end up like daoc where you spread out when any type of Inc is called.

pcar944

Lore_lai wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

I've been able to burst groups of 30+ with literally two people.

Yes and sometimes you're able to burst 2 people with 30+. Woo Hooo! Just remember - always, everyone - coordinate ulti drop!!

I'm off topic. IDGAF. Mer-Xmas!

and sometimes you cant do either ...

Psilent

Kutsuu wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Also having trouble understanding this war against "stack on crown" groups, since no guild groups actually literally stack on top of each other anymore. Organised groups move *with* the crown, sure, but if youre trying to remove that playstyle then what exactly is left? This is how group play works.

You just end up like daoc where you spread out when any type of Inc is called.

We already do that; if you don't you're dead almost instantly.

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

I find the AOE cap argument frustrating because we test this ***. Running VE raids again is brand new, and we experiment with damage, what can we take and not take. Certain old spots and strats don't work because properly specced burst is so high you will literally just die when you move the group there. Hell, I've even stood my group in stacks to see if piling up mitigation vs high DPS bombers like Havoc works (hint, it doesnt). I've been decimated by good bombs in bad spots, and I've been able to burst groups of 30+ with literally two people. Damage is high. It goes through block. Offense has vastly outstripped defense.

If Mano wants to use a video as proof, he needs to use one that actually shows AOE caps in effect.

Anyways. I don't even dislike the idea of removing AOE caps. But this change just feeds into the mentality of MOOR DAMAGE, and I'd rather ZoS not get praise for continuing down this stupid path of escalating DPS.

EDIT: Like, I am fully confident one VD specced Nightblade can kill 40 stacked players with one bomb. AOE caps are a great talking point but they don't mean anything anymore

The sneak peak is just that a sneak peak. It's great AoE Caps are being changed, but what else is coming in terms of tooltip damage on abilities? We already know they are going to nerf Elemental Storm's damage, but by how much? Will any other AoE skills have tooltip damage reduced? If so, how will this work with the AoE Cap change?

Right now the only groups that don't get bursted down fast are those DC tank groups I seem to run into every so often. However, they don't do much damage..

Manoekin

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

Joy_Division

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

Having been a part of that fight and seeing it from the other perspective, my enthusiasm for playing ESO is declining and that says a lot since I've put up with OP DKs, 1.6 and its one-shot NBs and unkillable sorcs, insta dying to recuits and their firetrebs when ZoS first raised siege damage, the first two months of Battle-Spirit when nothing died, Meth and his 1000 CP when I had like 300, the bombard stack spam, etc.

Everything I do is ancillary to Negate and the Destro ultimate. Paradoxically damage and tankiness are too high; even DPS specs are like cockroaches, but they'll melt when hit with proc combos or rooted inside Eye of the Storm. ZoS has lost any semblance of control to the power and capabilities players can bring and when that is combined in a synergistic group the effect is devastating. We can tell the 100s of Reds who died at Chalman Mine to "git gud," but a lot of them actually are capable players. I'm glad they finally reforming AoE caps, but the base mechanics of the game they put into the game in 1.6 have a dubious foundation at best and certainly are busted at this point.

BooskySG

Manoekin

Joy_Division wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

Having been a part of that fight and seeing it from the other perspective, my enthusiasm for playing ESO is declining and that says a lot since I've put up with OP DKs, 1.6 and its one-shot NBs and unkillable sorcs, insta dying to recuits and their firetrebs when ZoS first raised siege damage, the first two months of Battle-Spirit when nothing died, Meth and his 1000 CP when I had like 300, the bombard stack spam, etc.

Everything I do is ancillary to Negate and the Destro ultimate. Paradoxically damage and tankiness are too high; even DPS specs are like cockroaches, but they'll melt when hit with proc combos or rooted inside Eye of the Storm. ZoS has lost any semblance of control to the power and capabilities players can bring and when that is combined in a synergistic group the effect is devastating. We can tell the 100s of Reds who died at Chalman Mine to "git gud," but a lot of them actually are capable players. I'm glad they finally reforming AoE caps, but the base mechanics of the game they put into the game in 1.6 have a dubious foundation at best and certainly are busted at this point.

I think the whole system is just a mess. It's just an arms race at this point. Damage is high because people are tanky, people are tanky because damage is high. You can't fix the problem by just nerfing one side. There's DC groups that literally just run full tank groups with half the group templar healers. I don't even know why I bother with that *** anymore. The sad part is destro ult is the only thing stopping this from being the meta where just absolutely nobody dies.

Magus

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I agree AOE Caps do matter and should be removed, but your video example is pretty bad. Group wasn't stacked tight enough for AOE caps to have even made a difference. Even if completely removed, that example you used would have been 100% the same. Healers did their job.

Dyride

Valencer wrote: »

Fighting an organised group when youre not organised yourself has never been fun in this game, imo. But sometimes I cant tell whether ZOS themselves want people to do serious group play at all, or not.

I think loosening AoE caps will be a boon to organised groups, which doesnt seem to be ZOS' intention...

Lots of good things in the your post, but you are totally right about ZOS sending mixed signals on organized groups.

The Rapids/purge nerf to being only for group members comes to mind.

Losing Rapids while healing hurt smaller groups more than larger organized groups which devote people to support builds.

At the same time, you are encouraged to be in a group just to benefit from these skills. You can't help pugs move out or purge siege.

Building an organized group can be a exercise in theorycrafting just like a PvE raid. It also requires a high degree of flexibility for different tactics, group compositions and adapting to opposing forces on the fly.

Satiar

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

And we come back to why I really hate the aoe cap argument, it's basically an "I couldn't kill you" whine. When I fail to kill a group I try to recognize why: did we synchronize ults? Did we put roots, snares and streaks out so they STAY in those ults? Etc. I do this because damage is so *** high that I assume I erred or that my enemy made a decent play. Your "it was aoe caps, man!" response is lol worthy, especially as you note most of the group just walked out of your ults because you had little effective CC.

Plus, if you really want to get into what could have Happened, the VE group could have just dropped ults and vaporized you, instead of holding onto then for a harder target.

In the end, if you have trouble bursting groups you should be looking inward for solutions because it's really, painfully easy to do. But in reality, I know you guys have a nice group and probably have little trouble melting groups much larger than yours. You probably kill groups bigger than that on a nightly basis and don't think twice because Stealthy and Stalker or whoever gets in there and people just DISSAPPEAR. It's just unfortunate that the moment you hit a group you don't instantly burst down you're back to blaming aoe caps when you would have been salivating at such a juicy stack any other time.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

I don't mind the damage on the placed morph, it's the super bat swarm eye morph that's utterly broken. If I can kill people merely by gap closing to them with the ult active, it's broken lol.

And you should likewise be complaining, as if your goal is the removal of caps then you shouldn't be praising ZoS for half measures.

kadar

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

Satiar

The_Outsider wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

That's been in game since 1.6 launched and that makes me sad.

stealthyevil

The_Outsider wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

On a sidenote, is Infernal Guardian supposed to find me and pull me out of cloak ? I hate that set with a passion.

kadar

Concerning the proc set nerf:
It does seem a bit...conservative, from the PVP perspective (which would be great IF ZOS balanced things incrementally [ya, I'm salty])... I do predict it will be more helpful than folks are anticipating, however. Players who stack Impen high enough to render crits pointless, already have greatly diminished threat from proctatoes, and in reality few players run over 2500 crit resistance. Removing the Crits will help DPS specialized builds with 3-5 impen gear pieces the most. Lastly, Viper (the worst offender) SHOULD be getting fixed to where it doesn't proc off bows or double proc.

We've got lots more changes incoming, so again: channeling optimistic khajiit!

kadar

stealthyevil wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

On a sidenote, is Infernal Guardian supposed to find me and pull me out of cloak ? I hate that set with a passion.

THAT TOO. I can't fathom that that is intended. IG just needs some physics/logic/combat checks implemented instead of a simple dumb radius.

kadar

Satiar wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

That's been in game since 1.6 launched and that makes me sad.

Agreed. We've got both magicka and stamina NBs dropping it from their bars. Addons + in game mechanics make stealth the most easily counted play-style there is...and then it also just doesn't function correctly. Sad khajiit is sad.

Yuke

Dyride wrote: »

Lots of good things in the your post, but you are totally right about ZOS sending mixed signals on organized groups.

The Rapids/purge nerf to being only for group members comes to mind.

Losing Rapids while healing hurt smaller groups more than larger organized groups which devote people to support builds.

Thats just not true. A good and organized small scale grp (a real one - max 6), consists of builds which are able to deal with every situation to a certain level on their own.

You dont have the slots to dedicate someone to deal with only one thing ... like spamming speed and purge all the time.

Everyone must be able to deal a good amount of (aoe and single) damage, heal, purge (mostly soft cc) and it cant hurt to have crowd controls available (steak, caltrops, fear, talons, dawnbreaker ...) on every slot of the group.

But i guess you were talking about the more common definition of "smaller groups" ... aka 8-24 slot.

Yuke

:edit:

ah, my opinion about the sneakpeak: nothing will change about the use of proc sets, especially for non ganker like me. I dont crit that much anyway in heavy armor and an additional 5-6k selene hit was always enough for me.

Manoekin

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

And we come back to why I really hate the aoe cap argument, it's basically an "I couldn't kill you" whine. When I fail to kill a group I try to recognize why: did we synchronize ults? Did we put roots, snares and streaks out so they STAY in those ults? Etc. I do this because damage is so *** high that I assume I erred or that my enemy made a decent play. Your "it was aoe caps, man!" response is lol worthy, especially as you note most of the group just walked out of your ults because you had little effective CC.

Plus, if you really want to get into what could have Happened, the VE group could have just dropped ults and vaporized you, instead of holding onto then for a harder target.

In the end, if you have trouble bursting groups you should be looking inward for solutions because it's really, painfully easy to do. But in reality, I know you guys have a nice group and probably have little trouble melting groups much larger than yours. You probably kill groups bigger than that on a nightly basis and don't think twice because Stealthy and Stalker or whoever gets in there and people just DISSAPPEAR. It's just unfortunate that the moment you hit a group you don't instantly burst down you're back to blaming aoe caps when you would have been salivating at such a juicy stack any other time.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

I don't mind the damage on the placed morph, it's the super bat swarm eye morph that's utterly broken. If I can kill people merely by gap closing to them with the ult active, it's broken lol.

And you should likewise be complaining, as if your goal is the removal of caps then you shouldn't be praising ZoS for half measures.

I think it's fair to say the fight could go a lot differently if some of the players in the video aren't taking 50% reduced damage just because. Some more probably fall over like the other 5-6 that did take full damage. It's just a fact, like it's there it's a mechanic. I'm not even blaming aoe caps entirely though, just posting something I thought was funny considering the conversation that was going on. You can't say it doesn't affect the outcome of fights when very clearly it's working in the way it was intended to affect the outcome of fights. The fight probably would have gone differently too, yes, had we optimized our group, but with what we had there that is what we could do. Unfortunately our groups these days are more about just come with whatever you have fun playing, and not everyone considers rolling over things with destro too much fun anymore.

I've also not complained about AOE caps since daniel was pulling his *** a year or so ago. There's no reason to talk about it anymore until someone makes a post on the forums questioning why they're relaxing the aoe cap damage.

As for Eye of the Storm morph, that is what I was talking about. I just don't like the way the ability works at all regardless of the damage it does. All of these ults that have near 0 counterplay other than "block", or in destro ulti's case actually 0... just need to go back to the drawing board. The thought process on when to use your ult should be more than whenever you see the biggest stack of your life or when crown tells you to use it.

Satiar

Yuke wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Lots of good things in the your post, but you are totally right about ZOS sending mixed signals on organized groups.

The Rapids/purge nerf to being only for group members comes to mind.

Losing Rapids while healing hurt smaller groups more than larger organized groups which devote people to support builds.

Thats just not true. A good and organized small scale grp (a real one - max 6), consists of builds which are able to deal with every situation to a certain level on their own.

You dont have the slots to dedicate someone to deal with only one thing ... like spamming speed and purge all the time.

Everyone must be able to deal a good amount of (aoe and single) damage, heal, purge (mostly soft cc) and it cant hurt to have crowd controls available (steak, caltrops, fear, talons, dawnbreaker ...) on every slot of the group.

But i guess you were talking about the more common definition of "smaller groups" ... aka 8-24 slot.

You did just describe the advantage of a larger group, which is specialization. A build that can do everything can't do everything well, whereas support builds can allow specialized builds like glass cannons, etc. to be extremely effective. Having one guy that hits Speeds frees up bar slots for 23 other people, and on it goes. A properly specced raid thus suffers less than the smaller group.

Ishammael

Joy_Division wrote: »

Having been a part of that fight and seeing it from the other perspective, my enthusiasm for playing ESO is declining and that says a lot since I've put up with OP DKs, 1.6 and its one-shot NBs and unkillable sorcs, insta dying to recuits and their firetrebs when ZoS first raised siege damage, the first two months of Battle-Spirit when nothing died, Meth and his 1000 CP when I had like 300, the bombard stack spam, etc.

Everything I do is ancillary to Negate and the Destro ultimate. Paradoxically damage and tankiness are too high; even DPS specs are like cockroaches, but they'll melt when hit with proc combos or rooted inside Eye of the Storm. ZoS has lost any semblance of control to the power and capabilities players can bring and when that is combined in a synergistic group the effect is devastating. We can tell the 100s of Reds who died at Chalman Mine to "git gud," but a lot of them actually are capable players. I'm glad they finally reforming AoE caps, but the base mechanics of the game they put into the game in 1.6 have a dubious foundation at best and certainly are busted at this point.

Completely agree with Joy here.

Manoekin wrote: »

I think the whole system is just a mess. It's just an arms race at this point. Damage is high because people are tanky, people are tanky because damage is high. You can't fix the problem by just nerfing one side. There's DC groups that literally just run full tank groups with half the group templar healers. I don't even know why I bother with that *** anymore. The sad part is destro ult is the only thing stopping this from being the meta where just absolutely nobody dies.

Also agree with this.

I have watched a bunch of old 1.5 videos lately. This was mostly for entertainment -- 1.5 videos are still the best (specific props to @Etaniel for the mDK videos) -- but otherwise because I wanted to remind myself of how the game used to be.

Some specific things stick out:
1. General player knowledge and skill was SIGNIFICANTLY lower. We were all still learning to play in some sense. Part of the reason for this was that ZOS hid so many of the game mechanics and stat calculations.
2. Damage to HP ratio was completely different. Mostly this was set by soft caps, but also because of the 1.5:1:1 ratio of stats and different armor scaling/calcs (e.g. you could soft cap armor when wearing LA and apply a single armor buff), weapon enchants have creeped in power significantly, and your armor now does damage for you.
3. Of the three character "identities" -- Damage, Sustain, defense -- players only got to choose one. Not two or all. This makes such a big difference. It should be clear to anyone that the ability to construct a stamina spec-ed character with minimum stamina recovery -- i.e. every single possible stat into damage -- is completely broken. I seem to recall a Fengrush video where he talked about his stamina recovery along the lines of "...ignore it... its only 700 because i can't make it any lower..." This is just one example.
4. Ultimates felt more natural and "part of the battle". Because they didn't benefit from uncapped stats, they didn't create one-shot situations nor completely wreck entire groups. The exception during 1.5 was Negate because of how immensely powerful it is to deny your enemies the ability to do anything. There was no 70k uninterruptible soul assault or stupid stuff like that.
5. Dynamic ultimate was the clear mechanic for dealing with big groups. It made sense in a game with AOE caps. High risk high reward. Time-gating ultimates behind a light-attack is horrible. It doesn't need to be like it was... but something has to change. In the metas since 1.6 big groups have always been linearly more powerful simply because of their access to more of them.
6. There were more players on the maps.
7. The original Blazing Shield Templar with blinding flashes was WAY more interesting than the 70k HP abominations we have now.
8. Build diversity is greater in the current patches. The catch here is that much more of a character's power is contained in its gear

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. I really, really used to love ESO. Lots of things have been added which are really neat.
Anything ZOS does will be controversial with this balance patch. I just hope they spent some care on it. One thing that Blizzard and other companies do with their balance patches is publish an explanation of changes. I think this would go a long way to help players like me who have played for a long time.

danno8

Manoekin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

If you mean just casually walked through them, yeah. If you were stacked you wouldn't have died to damage, you would have died to negate. The point of the video is that they did work in your favor, and they work in your favor more than any other group in cyro aside from PM. I just find it funny when people say AOE caps aren't a problem and then literally an hour later their group possibly survives because of them. Say with no AOE caps 4+ more people die which I think isn't entirely unreasonable. That probably allows us to chain an ult and you don't get to just stack your entire raid on the dead bodies to spam the F button like a zombie horde. The point of removing AOE caps isn't to increase damage. Like Manny said if you're worried about that it's because you benefit from them. It's to punish people who do stupid things and get away with it because their group took significantly less damage than they should have.

Complaining about any changes mentioned in the sneak peek is dumb especially knowing that destro ult is getting nerfed. On that topic I would rather them change the eye morph to something else entirely rather than decrease the damage. All decreasing the damage will do is make it a math equation to decide whether it's worth running or not. The morph should have something interesting attached to it like the bonuses to the ground target morph that would make you want to run it.

Having been a part of that fight and seeing it from the other perspective, my enthusiasm for playing ESO is declining and that says a lot since I've put up with OP DKs, 1.6 and its one-shot NBs and unkillable sorcs, insta dying to recuits and their firetrebs when ZoS first raised siege damage, the first two months of Battle-Spirit when nothing died, Meth and his 1000 CP when I had like 300, the bombard stack spam, etc.

Everything I do is ancillary to Negate and the Destro ultimate. Paradoxically damage and tankiness are too high; even DPS specs are like cockroaches, but they'll melt when hit with proc combos or rooted inside Eye of the Storm. ZoS has lost any semblance of control to the power and capabilities players can bring and when that is combined in a synergistic group the effect is devastating. We can tell the 100s of Reds who died at Chalman Mine to "git gud," but a lot of them actually are capable players. I'm glad they finally reforming AoE caps, but the base mechanics of the game they put into the game in 1.6 have a dubious foundation at best and certainly are busted at this point.

I think the whole system is just a mess. It's just an arms race at this point. Damage is high because people are tanky, people are tanky because damage is high. You can't fix the problem by just nerfing one side. There's DC groups that literally just run full tank groups with half the group templar healers. I don't even know why I bother with that *** anymore. The sad part is destro ult is the only thing stopping this from being the meta where just absolutely nobody dies.

Remember soft caps?

danno8

The_Outsider wrote: »

stealthyevil wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So i will finaly be able of cloak? 50% of my deads are because the stuck in combat bug dosn't let me cloak for over 2 minutes.

I hope that some fixes to Cloak are also incoming. I feel dirty pulling NBs out of Cloak by gap closing them, it's too damn easy. Then again, that's ZOS fix to make, so...

Channeling Optimism!

On a sidenote, is Infernal Guardian supposed to find me and pull me out of cloak ? I hate that set with a passion.

THAT TOO. I can't fathom that that is intended. IG just needs some physics/logic/combat checks implemented instead of a simple dumb radius.

Nor should EotS be hitting through walls, ceilings and floors.

Dyride

Yuke wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Lots of good things in the your post, but you are totally right about ZOS sending mixed signals on organized groups.

The Rapids/purge nerf to being only for group members comes to mind.

Losing Rapids while healing hurt smaller groups more than larger organized groups which devote people to support builds.

Thats just not true. A good and organized small scale grp (a real one - max 6), consists of builds which are able to deal with every situation to a certain level on their own.

You dont have the slots to dedicate someone to deal with only one thing ... like spamming speed and purge all the time.

Everyone must be able to deal a good amount of (aoe and single) damage, heal, purge (mostly soft cc) and it cant hurt to have crowd controls available (steak, caltrops, fear, talons, dawnbreaker ...) on every slot of the group.

But i guess you were talking about the more common definition of "smaller groups" ... aka 8-24 slot.

I don't disagree with you. Small groups require well rounded builds to be successful.

The main point was that a small group's capability to kite while outnumbered was severely diminished with the Rapids nerf.

My post may have over emphasized specialization. Successful builds generally need the same components, even if they have dedicated responsibilities.

I typically enjoy support roles but I've also got 2 DoTs, AoE, CC, Execute, Single target damage with debuffs, alongside my buffs and group/self heals.

Manoekin

Dyride wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Lots of good things in the your post, but you are totally right about ZOS sending mixed signals on organized groups.

The Rapids/purge nerf to being only for group members comes to mind.

Losing Rapids while healing hurt smaller groups more than larger organized groups which devote people to support builds.

Thats just not true. A good and organized small scale grp (a real one - max 6), consists of builds which are able to deal with every situation to a certain level on their own.

You dont have the slots to dedicate someone to deal with only one thing ... like spamming speed and purge all the time.

Everyone must be able to deal a good amount of (aoe and single) damage, heal, purge (mostly soft cc) and it cant hurt to have crowd controls available (steak, caltrops, fear, talons, dawnbreaker ...) on every slot of the group.

But i guess you were talking about the more common definition of "smaller groups" ... aka 8-24 slot.

I don't disagree with you. Small groups require well rounded builds to be successful.

The main point was that a small group's capability to kite while outnumbered was severely diminished with the Rapids nerf.

My post may have over emphasized specialization. Successful builds generally need the same components, even if they have dedicated responsibilities.

I typically enjoy support roles but I've also got 2 DoTs, AoE, CC, Execute, Single target damage with debuffs, alongside my buffs and group/self heals.

Harder, yeah. Kiting can still be done well enough provided you don't have 10 gap closers being spammed on you. IMO though the rapid change should be reverted. Even with it you won't be able to just run through the kind of crap you used to with giant raid wide barriers and stronger BoL's. I think that one change more than anything has brought about the supreme disappointment feeling you get when you go, "Well I guess I'm just not allowed to play my character today".

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

I find the AOE cap argument frustrating because we test this ***. Running VE raids again is brand new, and we experiment with damage, what can we take and not take. Certain old spots and strats don't work because properly specced burst is so high you will literally just die when you move the group there. Hell, I've even stood my group in stacks to see if piling up mitigation vs high DPS bombers like Havoc works (hint, it doesnt). I've been decimated by good bombs in bad spots, and I've been able to burst groups of 30+ with literally two people. Damage is high. It goes through block. Offense has vastly outstripped defense.

If Mano wants to use a video as proof, he needs to use one that actually shows AOE caps in effect.

Anyways. I don't even dislike the idea of removing AOE caps. But this change just feeds into the mentality of MOOR DAMAGE, and I'd rather ZoS not get praise for continuing down this stupid path of escalating DPS.

EDIT: Like, I am fully confident one VD specced Nightblade can kill 40 stacked players with one bomb. AOE caps are a great talking point but they don't mean anything anymore

I don't know about One VD specced NB; I know i've tried it (don't have Destro Ult yet though) and I wasn't able to get it off very well......Probably with Destro Ult though I could see it being possible...

2 NBs though would easily be able to do it though for sure.

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

AOE caps don't matter. I've now seen the light. Why shouldn't you just be able to potato run through ults? Or stack on bodies and mass res knowing you're protected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-19PGdA3c8

I don't know what's more funny, you thinking that video proves anything or you blaming your inability to burst a group on AOE caps.

For the record I'm in favor of AOE caps being totally removed lol. I also think this meta is stupid, more stupid than the last.

I'm not saying manoekin's group would've won if aoe caps removed, but you have to admit the fact that you had about 20-24 players vs 10 gave you a huge advantage because of them. They got a pretty good bomb on your group as you ran straight into their ults but only a few died. I'm not saying aoe caps saved you from wiping but they sure did help quite a bit in that scenario.

I think Mano said that the only downside is pug blobs will die even faster because they potato together, but I mean they have to learn sometime right? All it will force larger organized groups to do is play a bit smarter and be more careful about groups of all sizes.

I do agree with you though about how the way group play has been, it's basically destro ult and negates. As you said you don't even need prox det anymore, just run at people with a traveling insanely high damage ultimate. I don't see it changing unless destro ult is nerfed along with negate. I would even settle with the eye of the storm morph being changed to not travelwith the player. At least it will force you to think of good placement and not just gap close spamming people with it.

I wasn't there for that fight, I looked at it and I didn't even see destro ults hitting more than 10 at a time for more than a single second of that fight. Most of the raid just rolled immediately through the ults, and then even if you get them back on target you've missed your big burst potential. I guarantee you, if we had been literally stacked in a ball, relying on AOE caps to save us, that bomb would have literally annihilated us in half a second.

I find the AOE cap argument frustrating because we test this ***. Running VE raids again is brand new, and we experiment with damage, what can we take and not take. Certain old spots and strats don't work because properly specced burst is so high you will literally just die when you move the group there. Hell, I've even stood my group in stacks to see if piling up mitigation vs high DPS bombers like Havoc works (hint, it doesnt). I've been decimated by good bombs in bad spots, and I've been able to burst groups of 30+ with literally two people. Damage is high. It goes through block. Offense has vastly outstripped defense.

If Mano wants to use a video as proof, he needs to use one that actually shows AOE caps in effect.

Anyways. I don't even dislike the idea of removing AOE caps. But this change just feeds into the mentality of MOOR DAMAGE, and I'd rather ZoS not get praise for continuing down this stupid path of escalating DPS.

EDIT: Like, I am fully confident one VD specced Nightblade can kill 40 stacked players with one bomb. AOE caps are a great talking point but they don't mean anything anymore

I don't know about One VD specced NB; I know i've tried it (don't have Destro Ult yet though) and I wasn't able to get it off very well......Probably with Destro Ult though I could see it being possible...

2 NBs though would easily be able to do it though for sure.

It's Destro ult. Goes through block, and if specced right you can get over 5000 Spell Damage while wearing VD. It reallllly hurts.


Edit: I really hate being glass cannon, but as a NB nothing else makes sense atm. Why debuff with something like Fasallas when I can just blow you up ?

Manoekin

2 vs pugs is doable. I've tried just me and stealthy and things die but the group usually survives for the most part. If it were stealthy and another NB bomber a lot would die unless it was an organized group. Only issue is survivability because even spamming shields when you jump into 30 people it just takes one of them to have a brain and fear you and if the others are casting any abilities at all you have a good chance of dying instantly.