Turn Off Level Scaling

tanek

Gedalya wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This is how it is now, and it's been absolutely fantastic for the game.

Yeah, dittos, this is a great change. I've been playing since beta and I've overall loved the changes for this game; it has matured well.

Agreed. There is still plenty of character progression, but now I can move through the stories however I want and I never worry about "outleveling" an area like I do in so many other games.

STEVIL

I think it's been great but not perfect and will only get better.

In my mind the normal vet hard expansions for dungeon content serves as a great testbed for a similar set of options for whole world. So we could see some setting controls for difficulty of SIMILAR nature in the future which might address some of the original posters concerns.

One could start on hard or vet then dial down the setting to recreate the "easier as I advance" feeling some want.

Stopnaggin

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Jakonian wrote: »

No Level Scaling
Level 1 vs Mob A = 5 buttons pushes

Level 5 vs Mob A = 3 button pushes

Level 10 vs Mob A = 1 button push

Level Scaling
Level 1 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

Level 5 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

Level 10 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

But now you get full XP wherever you go. Zones were completely ruined content when there were levels. Once you outleveled them there was no point to ever going back for anything. Now that is not true.

I get what you are saying, but the advantages to this new system FAR outweigh the disadvantages.

Also that is just not true, because you Do get Significantly stronger as you progress and level up, since your skill lines are leveled, you unlock more skills and passives, you get better and matching gear pieces.

What it didn't make sense before is why a wolf on glenumbra was weaker as one on bangkorai.

While you get stronger you just don't feel it as much. I'm not arguing that 1t was good for the game in general, but alot of it caused other unforeseen issues. Many high cp players that in all honesty just don't know how to play, crating material drops absolutely suck, I would occasionally go back to lower levels to farm certain mats, I now have no option to do so without starting a new toon or respec the ones I have.

Flip side, world is way more populated, lots of activity, grouping with friends from other alliances. All good for the overall experience.

Hodicus

I've actually definitely noticed myself getting stronger as I level up. I don't feel that OP at any point, but I'm definitely more powerful than I was at level 1.

Kutsuu

Give it a chance... It's truly been amazing for the game. You get more powerful by unlocking and morphing skills.

People always say they want change, but when change happens they hate it. Some people are so accustomed to the traditional MMO extreme power jumps of "leveling" that they can't wrap their head around the benefits of this scaling system. Sigh.

AzuraKin

Sigtric wrote: »

This is how it is now, and it's been absolutely fantastic for the game.

not true, lol it hurts new players who cannot keep up with gear lvls due to supply of mats no longer farmable by high lvls.

gothickaiserub17_ESO

As a small technical point, the world isn't leveling up to you (I.E. that hill isn't getting taller as you get stronger)

The world is static, everything is the level / power that it is, no scaling.

You are scaled to be cp160, the gap between your level is applied to your gear to keep it up to date. So if you have 60 gear levels away from cap, then your gear gains 60 gear levels. If you level up 10 times, the only thing that changes is now your gear is only receiving 50 gear levels (thus requiring you to equip gear 10 levels higher)

I thought (and still do) it was bizarro world at first (you actually get weaker as you level, til you find gear to reset your power), but new skills and passives do slowly make your stronger (and later game enemies use more powerful moves)

It really all clears up at cp160 when you simply gain power, I feel they could have done this better, but the method they chose most likely required far less core changes of the game

Sigtric

AzuraKin wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This is how it is now, and it's been absolutely fantastic for the game.

not true, lol it hurts new players who cannot keep up with gear lvls due to supply of mats no longer farmable by high lvls.

All the new since 1T players I am friends with have not had a problem here. between the amazing amount of set gear drops that they can use and/or decon for their appropriate level plus 50% of the nodes being relevant to their current gear level, mats have been perfectly fine.

BlackSparrow

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Yeah, I agree that level scaling has its downsides. The feeling of always running the same treadmill is probably my biggest annoyance with One Tamriel.

But there are upsides, too. Always getting gear drops at your level is great. Being able to go run a dungeon with my friends, who range everywhere from level 15 to CP 400, all at the same time, is fantastic. Being able to quest anywhere I want at any time without following the zone levels is liberating (because before On Tamriel, it was VERY EASY to outlevel the zone you were supposed to be questing in. Very annoying)

And there is still a feeling of becoming more powerful present in the game: it's just MUCH more gradual. You barely even realize it until you're CP 200, soloing content that would have killed you immediately at level 20. Skills and Champion Points make a difference, so there is still that feeling of getting stronger... it's just much more subtle than in most games.

I agree the sense of progression is gone. And while you can group with anyone anytime is good for overall game growth, it's also setback in some ways. There really isn't a proper way to learn your character and it's skills. Being able to run a dungeon because of battle scaling can be a crutch, when you can face roll your way through all the content you're not learning what works. While all this is fine in the beginning, it hurts many toward end game. There is no face role when in HM dungeons and trials. All of a sudden you have to learn what is and isn't going to be effective.

You wouldn't keep a kid locked up untill he's 18 and then expect him to go out on his own and be effective. Too much imbalance with battle scaling gives a false sense of power early on. I think they need to tweak it a bit and for God's sake put in a proper tutorial.

Actually, I'd argue that lower level players are getting carried a lot less in the current system. Before, a lower level could easily call in a 400 CP friend or guildie to help them run a dungeon, and then just follow along as their friend soloed it. Now, while that 400 CP player is still going to have a pretty easy time with the dungeon, it's still exponentially more of a challenge for the high-level so the low-level character has to pull more of their own weight.

And besides, a lot of people were facerolling content before level scaling. Since in the previous system, all my characters were chronically overleveled for their zones, I find the current leveling environment much more challenging. If anything, I feel bad for players like me, who struggled early on because they haven't gotten the hang of the system yet, because if they quest solo and run into a boss they struggle against, they don't have the option of coming back later after grinding a few levels up. They have to learn the system to beat that boss. And anyone who phones a friend to get it beaten? They probably would have done it anyway, before battle leveled areas was a thing.

I'm always seeing people claim that PvE content is too "easy," but I've never found it so. Not before level scaling and not after level scaling. The level scaling system has its issues, but I wouldn't call that one of them.

Stopnaggin

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Yeah, I agree that level scaling has its downsides. The feeling of always running the same treadmill is probably my biggest annoyance with One Tamriel.

But there are upsides, too. Always getting gear drops at your level is great. Being able to go run a dungeon with my friends, who range everywhere from level 15 to CP 400, all at the same time, is fantastic. Being able to quest anywhere I want at any time without following the zone levels is liberating (because before On Tamriel, it was VERY EASY to outlevel the zone you were supposed to be questing in. Very annoying)

And there is still a feeling of becoming more powerful present in the game: it's just MUCH more gradual. You barely even realize it until you're CP 200, soloing content that would have killed you immediately at level 20. Skills and Champion Points make a difference, so there is still that feeling of getting stronger... it's just much more subtle than in most games.

I agree the sense of progression is gone. And while you can group with anyone anytime is good for overall game growth, it's also setback in some ways. There really isn't a proper way to learn your character and it's skills. Being able to run a dungeon because of battle scaling can be a crutch, when you can face roll your way through all the content you're not learning what works. While all this is fine in the beginning, it hurts many toward end game. There is no face role when in HM dungeons and trials. All of a sudden you have to learn what is and isn't going to be effective.

You wouldn't keep a kid locked up untill he's 18 and then expect him to go out on his own and be effective. Too much imbalance with battle scaling gives a false sense of power early on. I think they need to tweak it a bit and for God's sake put in a proper tutorial.

Actually, I'd argue that lower level players are getting carried a lot less in the current system. Before, a lower level could easily call in a 400 CP friend or guildie to help them run a dungeon, and then just follow along as their friend soloed it. Now, while that 400 CP player is still going to have a pretty easy time with the dungeon, it's still exponentially more of a challenge for the high-level so the low-level character has to pull more of their own weight.

And besides, a lot of people were facerolling content before level scaling. Since in the previous system, all my characters were chronically overleveled for their zones, I find the current leveling environment much more challenging. If anything, I feel bad for players like me, who struggled early on because they haven't gotten the hang of the system yet, because if they quest solo and run into a boss they struggle against, they don't have the option of coming back later after grinding a few levels up. They have to learn the system to beat that boss. And anyone who phones a friend to get it beaten? They probably would have done it anyway, before battle leveled areas was a thing.

I'm always seeing people claim that PvE content is too "easy," but I've never found it so. Not before level scaling and not after level scaling. The level scaling system has its issues, but I wouldn't call that one of them.

Interesting perspective, and probably valid for some. Just not mine and that's fine. To me artificially inflating stats is a draw back, gaining a certain sense of being more powerful than you actually are so to speak. And like I said it does have its merits, not going to argue that things like this bring in new players and makes the competitive. But as stated the sense of progression is not as pronounced as it was before, and I can see how this affects some.

Iselin

Jakonian wrote: »

BeepBeepSaysTheJeep wrote: »

The point of leveling up is to acquire more skill points and unlock skills. By no means does the level-scaling create a completely equal playing field. More abilities means more powerful.

More skills SHOULD mean that things are easier than they used to be. I can go to old areas and mobs still take just as many button pushes to kill as they used to. Not cool.

Sorry to break it to you but if you're leveling and adding skills and morphs intelligently, it should never take "just as many button pushes to kill as they used to."

I mean, most of us try to be polite when someone posts this topic every week but really, you're all just letting us know that you haven't figured out how to improve your build in ESO.

STEVIL

AzuraKin wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This is how it is now, and it's been absolutely fantastic for the game.

not true, lol it hurts new players who cannot keep up with gear lvls due to supply of mats no longer farmable by high lvls.

Incorrect. Those developing chars can get much more mats, sets decon etc bow at their level no matter where they go and in what order. Mats and gear now flow into the world driven by playtime not dedicated farming. I leVelez one chat thru to 50 and two to their 20s never buying mats after 1t. They just flow like water now.

You are right that the way things get done by Max end crafters has changed for some bUT not that the change overall hurt developing characters.

SanTii.92

STEVIL wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This is how it is now, and it's been absolutely fantastic for the game.

not true, lol it hurts new players who cannot keep up with gear lvls due to supply of mats no longer farmable by high lvls.

Incorrect. Those developing chars can get much more mats, sets decon etc bow at their level no matter where they go and in what order. Mats and gear now flow into the world driven by playtime not dedicated farming. I leVelez one chat thru to 50 and two to their 20s never buying mats after 1t. They just flow like water now.

You are right that the way things get done by Max end crafters has changed for some bUT not that the change overall hurt developing characters.

Not only that but new chars have access to ton of dropped sets while progressing naturally.

MaKTaiL

No point in leveling anymore? Ok, go play some Trials on Veteran and come back here to tell us how it went.

Stopnaggin

Iselin wrote: »

Jakonian wrote: »

BeepBeepSaysTheJeep wrote: »

The point of leveling up is to acquire more skill points and unlock skills. By no means does the level-scaling create a completely equal playing field. More abilities means more powerful.

More skills SHOULD mean that things are easier than they used to be. I can go to old areas and mobs still take just as many button pushes to kill as they used to. Not cool.

Sorry to break it to you but if you're leveling and adding skills and morphs intelligently, it should never take "just as many button pushes to kill as they used to."

I mean, most of us try to be polite when someone posts this topic every week but really, you're all just letting us know that you haven't figured out how to improve your build in ESO.

This is a game problem as there is no proper tutorials for classes or builds. Plus with scaling nothing really changes as you play, everything is as easy or hard all the way across the board. That's why I said it was more of a handicap than a help, but only when it comes to endgame content. I do realize not everyone falls into that catagory, but many newer players will.

lagrue

Jakonian wrote: »

So I recently came back to ESO after a long break and found the game completely broken. Level scaling.

How do I turn this off? I can't seem to find the option in the Settings.

The game feels busted. There is no point to leveling anymore, since everything feels like it's the same difficulty. And I can't seem to find certain craftable items anymore. I've wandered around low-level and even the Starting areas to find materials, and they're not there.

Am I missing something, or is this how it is now, all the time, with no way to change it?

Are people still really wanting the game to go back to trash mobs that give nothing other than a misplaced sense of being "powerful"?

The fact that everything scales has absolutely no downsides outside of the fact you can no longer get low-level materials... which really isn't a big downside since lower level mats are functionally useless anyway, why not just be happy with all the Rubedo stuff around? It sells quite well.

On the other hand being able to go back to Stonefalls after 2 years and actually farm stuff my level? Yes please.

SirAndy

Jakonian wrote: »

So I recently came back to ESO after a long break and found the game completely broken. Level scaling.
How do I turn this off? I can't seem to find the option in the Settings.
The game feels busted. There is no point to leveling anymore, since everything feels like it's the same difficulty. And I can't seem to find certain craftable items anymore. I've wandered around low-level and even the Starting areas to find materials, and they're not there.
Am I missing something, or is this how it is now, all the time, with no way to change it?

Probably stating the obvious here but a simple search will give you all your answers.
Everything you mention has been discussed in great detail.

I'd start with the patch notes you've missed ...

Iselin

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Jakonian wrote: »

BeepBeepSaysTheJeep wrote: »

The point of leveling up is to acquire more skill points and unlock skills. By no means does the level-scaling create a completely equal playing field. More abilities means more powerful.

More skills SHOULD mean that things are easier than they used to be. I can go to old areas and mobs still take just as many button pushes to kill as they used to. Not cool.

Sorry to break it to you but if you're leveling and adding skills and morphs intelligently, it should never take "just as many button pushes to kill as they used to."

I mean, most of us try to be polite when someone posts this topic every week but really, you're all just letting us know that you haven't figured out how to improve your build in ESO.

This is a game problem as there is no proper tutorials for classes or builds. Plus with scaling nothing really changes as you play, everything is as easy or hard all the way across the board. That's why I said it was more of a handicap than a help, but only when it comes to endgame content. I do realize not everyone falls into that catagory, but many newer players will.

I'm with you on the build tutorial part. The Secret World did a great job coming up with beginner templates to guide new players through their wide-open build system. Once you knew what you were doing, you could safely ignore them and do your own thing. ESO could use the same.

As long-time players we tend to forget how overwhelming the many choices can be to beginners.

But it IS a fact that if you're experiencing the same level of difficulty at level 30 as you did at level 5, something is very wrong with your build choices and how frequently you use abilities vs. light and heavy attacks.

Karius_Imalthar

I disagree. I like the level scaling. I can go anywhere in the world and find some kind of a challenge or worthwhile item.

Stopnaggin

Iselin wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Jakonian wrote: »

BeepBeepSaysTheJeep wrote: »

The point of leveling up is to acquire more skill points and unlock skills. By no means does the level-scaling create a completely equal playing field. More abilities means more powerful.

More skills SHOULD mean that things are easier than they used to be. I can go to old areas and mobs still take just as many button pushes to kill as they used to. Not cool.

Sorry to break it to you but if you're leveling and adding skills and morphs intelligently, it should never take "just as many button pushes to kill as they used to."

I mean, most of us try to be polite when someone posts this topic every week but really, you're all just letting us know that you haven't figured out how to improve your build in ESO.

This is a game problem as there is no proper tutorials for classes or builds. Plus with scaling nothing really changes as you play, everything is as easy or hard all the way across the board. That's why I said it was more of a handicap than a help, but only when it comes to endgame content. I do realize not everyone falls into that catagory, but many newer players will.

I'm with you on the build tutorial part. The Secret World did a great job coming up with beginner templates to guide new players through their wide-open build system. Once you knew what you were doing, you could safely ignore them and do your own thing. ESO could use the same.

As long-time players we tend to forget how overwhelming the many choices can be to beginners.

But it IS a fact that if you're experiencing the same level of difficulty at level 30 as you did at level 5, something is very wrong with your build choices and how frequently you use abilities vs. light and heavy attacks.

I agree, 1t has amplified this with battle scaling. Because of the resources you are given you really don't have to learn a playstyle that will work after your hit cp. You can pretty much coast through the first part of the game. While you had the same before it wasn't as prevalent, because you could jump to areas that were in fact higher. Many times when I was leveling I would do just that to test out skill and gear choices or even trying different rotations.

DHale

It's been a huge improvement. Love it.

Prof_Bawbag

I prefer level scaling to how it was. Over 90% of the map was completely useless before they introduced 1T.

Jeremy

Jakonian wrote: »

So I recently came back to ESO after a long break and found the game completely broken. Level scaling.

How do I turn this off? I can't seem to find the option in the Settings.

The game feels busted. There is no point to leveling anymore, since everything feels like it's the same difficulty. And I can't seem to find certain craftable items anymore. I've wandered around low-level and even the Starting areas to find materials, and they're not there.

Am I missing something, or is this how it is now, all the time, with no way to change it?

I prefer the new system. It's better than simply out-leveling every zone you were in while having to continuously kill nuisances that did not even drop loot. It also lets you adventure in nearly any zone you wish in any order you wish. So there is a lot more freedom to go where you want.

Leveling up still makes you more powerful - because it gives you skill points you can use to learn new abilities.

As far as crafting material nodes - they seem to appear based on both your crafting level and you current abilities to craft using that particular material.

For example: my character is a level 50 cloth crafter but only has a tailoring ability of 1. Both ancient silk and jute nodes appear for me.

Stopnaggin

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

I prefer level scaling to how it was. Over 90% of the map was completely useless before they introduced 1T.

I don't mind it the way it is now because I already know the mechanics of my toons. Maybe the testing dummy in housing will be enough for people to learn how to be more effective. Although I don't think 90% of the map was useless before. As I said before I would use higher level areas to test builds, and then after cp I would use Craglorn. So it's just a matter of taste. Dueling works as well if you have a friend who is a tank or healer.

Prof_Bawbag

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

I prefer level scaling to how it was. Over 90% of the map was completely useless before they introduced 1T.

I don't mind it the way it is now because I already know the mechanics of my toons. Maybe the testing dummy in housing will be enough for people to learn how to be more effective. Although I don't think 90% of the map was useless before. As I said before I would use higher level areas to test builds, and then after cp I would use Craglorn. So it's just a matter of taste. Dueling works as well if you have a friend who is a tank or healer.

Yeah, maybe 90% was a bit too harsh. I did pull it from my arse, so I appreciate not everyone is gonna agree with me. I just never had any reason to venture into stonefalls or any other low level area once I had out levelled them. In fact, I couldn't remember the last time i had visited Stonefalls. When i got back into the game on the PS4 after a year's hiatus, I was taken aback at just how empty the likes of Davon's Watch were. Back in my xbox days, that place was packed to the rafters. It's nearly back to how it was since they introduced the scaling.

kargen27

Stopnaggin wrote: »

I agree, 1t has amplified this with battle scaling. Because of the resources you are given you really don't have to learn a playstyle that will work after your hit cp. You can pretty much coast through the first part of the game. While you had the same before it wasn't as prevalent, because you could jump to areas that were in fact higher. Many times when I was leveling I would do just that to test out skill and gear choices or even trying different rotations.

When I start a new character I keep him in low level gear for as long as I can. Last one was still in level 10 gear when I hit 50. I don't assign any of the CPs until I hit 50. That makes some of the delves and group dungeons interesting. If you really want to test skills and gear choices there are still some world bosses that can be soloed. Just jump to a world boss and give it a try. I like that everything scales. My 2nd character (my first was a disaster) I was skipping about half of each zone just because one shotting things got boring. I finished main story line and guild lines but skipped most side quests because of lack of challenge. Now I am going back on at least two characters to finish up all the zones.

On an aside I think one of my most disappointing moments in the game was when I joined a group for a dungeon run when I was low level. They just wanted me to go in first so the dungeon would scale to me and then they ran through killing everything before I could even get to the fight. Sure I finished the dungeon, but didn't get any of the quest dialog didn't participate in any of the battles or anything. That happened a lot with people farming drops in certain dungeons. They just needed a low level to start it and then didn't even care if you went in or not. I am very happy that option no longer exists or if it does that I am blissfully ignorant of it.

smacx250

NPCs are now all CP160. The content isn't scaled down to you, you are scaled up to the content. So it can only get harder by turning scaling off, not easier. Like it or not, it is what OT is. And by the way, killing mobs does get easier as you level up - no, not like before OT and being CP cap and heading back to the starter zone, but still easier. I had the same concerns you've expressed before OT dropped, but now that I've had some time with it I like it the way that it is. Now I can go anywhere and do anything on any character and still get credit (XP and drops) for it. I can also group with higher or lower level players and we aren't penalized (as much) for doing content that doesn't fit one or the other.

FriedEggSandwich

Jakonian wrote: »

No Level Scaling
Level 1 vs Mob A = 5 buttons pushes

Level 5 vs Mob A = 3 button pushes

Level 10 vs Mob A = 1 button push

Level Scaling
Level 1 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

Level 5 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

Level 10 vs Mob A = 4 button pushes

This would be correct if you always had the most optimal gear on, but the way that gear drags you down if you out level it means that this isn't true. It's not feasible to upgrade all your gear every time you level up, so what happens is you get weaker and weaker until you upgrade your gear, and then you have a period of strength which diminishes every time you level up but don't upgrade your gear. I agree that perfect scaling would be boring, but it isn't perfect scaling; the feeling of getting stronger comes with acquiring new gear.

Dawnblade

I just came back and its a mixed bag...

Sure, it is nice to be able to go anywhere at any level and be able to explore, do quests, whatever without having to follow some sort of on rails level based path.

On the other hand, it is no longer possible to outlevel content such that it becomes signigicanly easier (they should probably update the comment on one of the load screens that references gaining a couple of levels as a way to get past a difficult challenge).

The two things that stick out like sore thumbs though are the retention of the 1-50 leveling process without any actual level based content (doesn't count towards CP so feels useless) and gear / crafting sub CP160 (also seems useless with level sync system as well makes some mats difficult to find simply because so few are in those levels anymore - especial 50+ but sub CP160 mats).

FriedEggSandwich

Dawnblade wrote: »

I just came back and its a mixed bag...

Sure, it is nice to be able to go anywhere at any level and be able to explore, do quests, whatever without having to follow some sort of on rails level based path.

On the other hand, it is no longer possible to outlevel content such that it becomes signigicanly easier (they should probably update the comment on one of the load screens that references gaining a couple of levels as a way to get past a difficult challenge).

The two things that stick out like sore thumbs though are the retention of the 1-50 leveling process without any actual level based content (doesn't count towards CP so feels useless) and gear / crafting sub CP160 (also seems useless with level sync system as well makes some mats difficult to find simply because so few are in those levels anymore - especial 50+ but sub CP160 mats).

You're right, it's no longer possible to outlevel content, but I don't see why you would want to because in the past that just meant getting no xp for doing the content. My main character is a sorc on EU and I have over 650cp with all BiS gear for what I like to do. I also have a lvl32 sorc on NA who has no cp. The difference between the 2 characters is very noticable. I might not have outlevelled any content with my max rank eu sorc but it sure as hell feels like it with the way he can rip through stuff; he can solo dolmens, world bosses and normal dungeons, run vma in 45 mins, and run around solo in trueflame. My na sorc can't even solo a dolmen and dies regularly on main quest lines. They have the same skills for the most part, and even some of the same gear (elegant), but they're leagues apart in performance.

My point is that the game still has satisfying progression.