Should two-handed weapons count as two set pieces?

greylox · December 2016

Yes

It fills two slots so yeah I reckon. Also atm d/w 1h shield etc can have 3 sets running at the same time.

SorataArisugawa · December 2016

Yes

EsoRecon wrote: »

sacrifices must be made.

Yeah, if you want to play a mag Sorc, you have to use Destrostaff. No choice. And so, you have to sacrify one 5 set bonus. That is just a joke...

roigseguib16_ESO · December 2016

Yes

EsoRecon wrote: »

sacrifices must be made.

To be precise the sacrifice to be made is actually using a 2H because it's not even close to the performance of DW.

olsborg · December 2016

No

It should not, however, finding some middleground would be totaly in its place.

olsborg · December 2016

No

They should add such a mandatory stamina heals that is Rally, to the fighters guild skill line.

Lieblingsjunge · December 2016

No

Zinaroth wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

No. It's a part of theory-crafting & structure. You can't have one piece count as two pieces, it wouldn't make sense. + It would make it too easy(!!) to make super-strong builds, where e.g. a Bow/2h user won't sacrifice anything, for going with bow & 2h.

Why should they sacrifice a set piece for going for a two handed weapon? Are you implying the two handed weapon skill lines by defaults are stronger than the others? If that is the case I disagree. Right now one handed and shield is dominating PvP for defense and dual wield is dominating both PvP and PvE for damage, for both magicka and stamina.

This needs to happen otherwise two handed weapon skill lines and weapons will never be comparable in PvE for DPS. Will it warrant some adjustments afterwards? Most likely but that would be another scenario. If they counted as two set pieces, people using dual wield or one handed and shield would still have something going for them; being able to mix and match, where two-hander could maybe only count for one set at a time. Not a huge difference, but still some.

EDIT: And let's not forget that you already get more weapon or spell damage by using dual wield by default, which would still be the case.

Why should they not? It adds some flexibility & some consideration when doing theorycrafting. And why does every single weapon have to be BiS for both PvE/PvP? 2h + bow is already dominating PvP, in a much larger scale than S&B(Unless they use Tumourscale, but that is a different problem, that's got nothing to do with the weapons itself, just how skills interact with procs, taunt-set proccing without target being taunted, gg).

I just don't get the urge to always make every single weapon, every single gear, every single thing BiS, in its own way. It's a MMO, everything will *never* be 100% equal in terms of balance. I still see Staves being used A LOT(!) in both PvE & PvP, at least for magicka characters, so I don't see how staves can't compare.

And they, honestly, offer different things. S&B offers defence, nothing more. Dual wield offers damage, but it doesn't have a single CC-ability and it's useless defensively. 2h got: Heal, buff, CC, damage, execute. Bow: Dmg, execute, snipe, mobility. Destro: Elemental Damage, ground-abilities, tons of damage, aoe, cc. Resto staff: Heals, shields, buffs.

The 2H-weapons are in general stronger & offer more versatility in terms of their skills. So not giving up anything to have "All in one weapon" seems rather silly to me.

Bryanonymous · December 2016

Yes

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

No. It's a part of theory-crafting & structure. You can't have one piece count as two pieces, it wouldn't make sense. + It would make it too easy(!!) to make super-strong builds, where e.g. a Bow/2h user won't sacrifice anything, for going with bow & 2h.

Why should they sacrifice a set piece for going for a two handed weapon? Are you implying the two handed weapon skill lines by defaults are stronger than the others? If that is the case I disagree. Right now one handed and shield is dominating PvP for defense and dual wield is dominating both PvP and PvE for damage, for both magicka and stamina.

This needs to happen otherwise two handed weapon skill lines and weapons will never be comparable in PvE for DPS. Will it warrant some adjustments afterwards? Most likely but that would be another scenario. If they counted as two set pieces, people using dual wield or one handed and shield would still have something going for them; being able to mix and match, where two-hander could maybe only count for one set at a time. Not a huge difference, but still some.

EDIT: And let's not forget that you already get more weapon or spell damage by using dual wield by default, which would still be the case.

Why should they not? It adds some flexibility & some consideration when doing theorycrafting. And why does every single weapon have to be BiS for both PvE/PvP? 2h + bow is already dominating PvP, in a much larger scale than S&B(Unless they use Tumourscale, but that is a different problem, that's got nothing to do with the weapons itself, just how skills interact with procs, taunt-set proccing without target being taunted, gg).

I just don't get the urge to always make every single weapon, every single gear, every single thing BiS, in its own way. It's a MMO, everything will *never* be 100% equal in terms of balance. I still see Staves being used A LOT(!) in both PvE & PvP, at least for magicka characters, so I don't see how staves can't compare.

And they, honestly, offer different things. S&B offers defence, nothing more. Dual wield offers damage, but it doesn't have a single CC-ability and it's useless defensively. 2h got: Heal, buff, CC, damage, execute. Bow: Dmg, execute, snipe, mobility. Destro: Elemental Damage, ground-abilities, tons of damage, aoe, cc. Resto staff: Heals, shields, buffs.

The 2H-weapons are in general stronger & offer more versatility in terms of their skills. So not giving up anything to have "All in one weapon" seems rather silly to me.

Just nonsense. 'X is different, and therefore Y is allowed to get more bonus stats'. Two handed is not stronger. The damage of two swords combined ends up being higher than a two handed weapon. And your argument completely ignores class abilities that make up any difference.

STEVIL · December 2016

No

1 - Farming just one greatsword with sharpened trait and we are set vs farming two sharpened swords... half the farming time should gain all the benefits? i think not.

2 - Spending 8 gold tempers on one gold sharp greatsword vs spending 16 gold tempers on two gold sharpened swords... half the expense should gain all the benefits? i think not.

3 - 2H weapon users CAN benefit from a 5-5-2 build just fine, if they choose sets where there is a cooldown on one of the 5pc bonuses. For example, a clever alchemist build or a lich build where you have 15s or more run time on the 5pc bonus serves 2h/bow/stave builds just as good as they serve DW builds even with the savings from 1 and 2 above. So its really a case where some sets are better for DW users and such but there are builds where the 2h/bow/staves get all the same benefits plus their already built-in inherent benefits. In other words, differences in results based on choices vs more sameness to let the same sets work the same regardless of choices.

4 - lets face it, the 5-5-2 isnt really the uber-structure esp at end game that its being portrayed as a great loss to have "lost" for some sets. Many of the top tier builds are not 5-5-2 with monster helms but rather more like 5-3j-2mon-1/2Mael with 1-2 maelstrom wpns, a single 5pc, 3 jewels and 2 monsters, right? once maelstrom weapons factor into the mix the "5-5-2 set count" thing goes mostly out the window though we do run into the OP nature of DW maelstrom daggers. Fix maelDW and then see what you have.

5 - There are other ways to address the diversity issues than making the weapons less distinctive. As part of a crafting proposal to help add unique flavor back to crafting of equipment, i propose allowing crafted sets to drop one of the 2-3-4pc bonuses producing 4pc sets (with the former 5th piece bonus kicking in at 4pc.) that addresses some of the "count" concerns and adds a lot of new builds without making weapons less distinct and weapons choices less meaningful.

6 - Any change this broad needs to be part of a serious overall package of rebalancing the weapons, likely resulting in changing/lowering some of the 2h/bow/staff skills to accomodate or offset any actual gain in power in their use - since playtests and performance analysis until now has factored in the set count issues automatically.

7 - More sameness doesn't lead to more diversity. More meaningful and useful options does lead to more diversity.

idk · December 2016

No

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

Apologies if its a repost. Haven't seen any other thread like this so I figured. If admins consider it to be repetitive then feel free to remove it!!

Must not visit forums often. The threads die fast though.

Yes, must be. Thanks for your insightful feedback. ****

@roigseguib16_ESO

Your welcome. Not much feedback is needed though since this isn't needed.

Asteroth · December 2016

Yes

alright guys I was on another thread about this and saw a somewhat trolly reply with a picture of a wrist piece. sorry I cant figure out how to imbed the picture. anyway, we could have a wrist piece that functioned sort of like a shield, where you can only slot it to your offhand, but it would offer no armor and wouldn't allow S&B or DW skills, effectively making it only useful for people using a 2 handed weapon. one for each set means everyone gets 5/5/2. it could possibly even be unechantable with no trait, so that its just a set piece and nothing more.

was all for yes, but switched to no, since I like this idea much better.

edit: is there a way I can switch to no?

Joy_Division · December 2016

Yes

Yep.

pizzaow · December 2016

Yes

I like the idea of having to farm for a "weapon grip" or another physical piece that could count as a 5-piece... Similar to the comment from @Asteroth. We already have gauntlets, so a wrist piece is a bit redundant. If there was a "staff grip" (all staves) and a "weapon grip" (2H & bow) it would make for some fun combinations.

SodanTok · December 2016

Yes

But they are one piece! - Bows have quiver, staves should be held in one hand anyway.
But they have already higher damage to offset it - 2 Dual wield weapons have more damage than bows and staves (1 has same)
But they have range advantage - 2H does not. Bow is used in melee in PvE, gap closers are ever prevalent in PvP.
But it bring unbalance to the game - There wasnt patch (at least for past 1.5years) that was this dependant on armor (and 5piece effects), if there is good time to balance weapons, its now.
But materials and RNG to find weapons - Lol, grow up. You dont use materials to kill people. You arent looking for weapons in duel.
But 2H has already good skills, DW has none - 2H weapons have more utility, DW have more damage. Bringing sets on par wont change this.

RebornV3x · December 2016

Yes

I think destro and resto staffs should count as a 2 set this would help close the Magicka Vs Stamina gap while 2 handed and bow should stay as is to keep some variety

roigseguib16_ESO · December 2016

Yes

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

But they are one piece! - Bows have quiver, staves should be held in one hand anyway.

But they have already higher damage to offset it - 2 Dual wield weapons have more damage than bows and staves (1 has same)

But they have range advantage - 2H does not. Bow is used in melee in PvE, gap closers are ever prevalent in PvP.

But it bring unbalance to the game - There wasnt patch (at least for past 1.5years) that was this dependant on armor (and 5piece effects), if there is good time to balance weapons, its now.

But materials and RNG to find weapons - Lol, grow up. You dont use materials to kill people. You arent looking for weapons in duel.

But 2H has already good skills, DW has none - 2H weapons have more utility, DW have more damage. Bringing sets on par wont change this.

I crown you king of this post. Loved your answer.

roigseguib16_ESO · December 2016

Yes

RebornV3x wrote: »

I think destro and resto staffs should count as a 2 set this would help close the Magicka Vs Stamina gap while 2 handed and bow should stay as is to keep some variety

Some variety e. g. Some people use destro others use dw. 2H and Bow need love more than staves.

OOJIMMY · December 2016

No

I personally believe it would kill diversity of the game, talking about stamina of coarse. There would be no reason to run dual wield unless the rehauled the skill line. Both bow and 2 handed have amazing executes. The main area where it would have the most effects would be pvp. For stam characters unless you're running proc sets, 2h and bow vastly out perform dw and sb.

OOJIMMY · December 2016

No

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

I think destro and resto staffs should count as a 2 set this would help close the Magicka Vs Stamina gap while 2 handed and bow should stay as is to keep some variety

Some variety e. g. Some people use destro others use dw. 2H and Bow need love more than staves.

Highly disagree, maybe bow needs a little love so it's not just used as a back bar but 2h is grossly strong especially in pvp.

Jeremy · December 2016

Yes

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

Staves, mauls, battleaxes, greatswords and bows couting as two pieces of a set to balance out the difference with DW/S&S users

Yes. They should.

There is no advantage that a two-handed weapon gives over duel wielding that justifies them being gypped out of a set bonus.

STEVIL · December 2016

No

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

But they are one piece! - Bows have quiver, staves should be held in one hand anyway.

But they have already higher damage to offset it - 2 Dual wield weapons have more damage than bows and staves (1 has same)

But they have range advantage - 2H does not. Bow is used in melee in PvE, gap closers are ever prevalent in PvP.

But it bring unbalance to the game - There wasnt patch (at least for past 1.5years) that was this dependant on armor (and 5piece effects), if there is good time to balance weapons, its now.

But materials and RNG to find weapons - Lol, grow up. You dont use materials to kill people. You arent looking for weapons in duel.

But 2H has already good skills, DW has none - 2H weapons have more utility, DW have more damage. Bringing sets on par wont change this.

Interesting that your attempted refutations while strong in truthiness seem to often not apply too all the weapons lines in question?

But case by case...

One piece: bows have quiver? Yeah sure but swords have scabbards.should 1h weapons get 4 set bonuses in dw cuz you know they like have two blades plus two scabbards, you know? One piece - one set count is currently applied to every item cleanly. Any one piece plus carrying case kind of deal would be just an abberation applied to some and not others.

Damage: dw v staves bows yeah lets ignore range in the interest of truthiness and seem to forget 2h?

Range: now you remember 2h. Gap closers in pvp, but i thought the proponents keep dismissing pvo for this discussion cuz you know 2h has a niche there. Bow used in melee, YES bow and staves can be used very effectively at 5m and beyond in pve or pvp, unlike dw and 2h which cannot be very effective at say 20m. Thats not an argument FOR boosting all three at all.

Bring balance now - sure but that says nothing to support this being balanced.

Materials/farming: just beyond the pale even for truthiness. Thread after thread post after post you can find excellent advice to the effect that its most important to get the weapons upgraded and to good traits first if you cant get all your gear. Tempers may not kill people but purple v gold weapons and training v sharpened swords might well get you killed.

Bringing sets on par: far too vague to discuss with any meaning. If you mean set count, its unclear. Right now part of the damage gain alleged between dw and 2h IS from set count. Adding nore set counts to one side would affect this, maybe not enough to change top damage winner but maybe enough to simply change top weapon from one to another, not adding diversity, just putting 2h on top on both sides of the cyrodil gate (if one accepts 2h niche is pvp claims)

unchainedzulu · December 2016

Narvuntien wrote: »

What if weapons were just not part of sets anymore? wouldn't that solve this problem?

Then create completely new theroy crafting problems

what about another ring slot, that is only enabled with a two-handed weapon equipped?
i know it's not an exact balance, but pros and cons, i'm sure...

Foxic · December 2016

No

Think of how broken magicka builds would be in pve. They are already dominating the competitive raid rosters and this would be a straight buff across the board for them.

kessik221 · December 2016

Yes

A change needs to be made. Bow and 2 handed are just not competitive. Sure they get some cool pvp tricks but lets be honest, lolpvpbalancenuffsaid.

Yo_Donno · December 2016

Yes

Feels like people are just ignoring staves. A lot of Magicka DPS I've seen run dual wield swords on their main damage bar because they get the benefit of the increased damage from the twin blade and blunt passive, and they ALSO get an extra set piece.

For me this would push me away from literally ONLY running a staff on my back bar so I can heavy attack and get magicka back, and doing 90% of my damage with dual wield equipped. Having it count for two set pieces would right and imbalance in the game...

Why should stamina DPS and Tank characters get an extra set piece?

EsoRecon wrote: »

sacrifices must be made.

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I have yet to see the name of one good/well known player say yes to this idea.

Sigtric wrote: »

1 piece of gear = 1 piece of gear

None of these people make compelling arguments against it, so my gut reaction is to assume that they are either simply arguing for the sake of it or are strictly stamina characters and want to keep their massive leg up in both PVP and PVE content.

Also, a reminder that even if this were to actually happen (which let's be honest is probably the farthest thing from true) dual wield DPS and S&B tanks/pvp characters still have a leg up in that they get one extra enchant, but perhaps that argument is best left for a different thread.

unchainedzulu wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

What if weapons were just not part of sets anymore? wouldn't that solve this problem?

Then create completely new theroy crafting problems

what about another ring slot, that is only enabled with a two-handed weapon equipped?
i know it's not an exact balance, but pros and cons, i'm sure...

I like this idea in theory except that you forgot jewelry enchants, by nature, are massively more powerful than weapon or armor enchants.

Blackfyre20 · December 2016

No

Gonna say no with a little *. The only people I think this is pretty unfair for is mag sorcs. I don't play one but they have no choice at all really to use anything aside from staves due to their lack of spammable class dd ability. So either give them said ability or better yet make a new weapon skill line which is a magicka version of dw. That said I don't feel that strongly about this and there are other more important things to get done.

STEVIL · December 2016

No

Yo_Donno wrote: »

.

Also, a reminder that even if this were to actually happen (which let's be honest is probably the farthest thing from true) dual wield DPS and S&B tanks/pvp characters still have a leg up in that they get one extra enchant, but perhaps that argument is best left for a different thread.

Rather than engage in speculation about your motives, i will just ask a direct question.

From the quote you make above, is it your belief that the enchant on the second weapon on a dw pair gives a dps edge by procing in addition to - not in place of - the primary hand enchant?

I have not checked it lately but that did not serm to be the case with my dw chars.

Iirc, it seemed the procs alternated p-s-p then repeated the trio again but only when the typical enchant proc cycle came up. Iirc that may have been on hvy attacks, not lights. Alternating which enchant is triggered doesnt inc dps.

Now, of course, maelstroms are different, but then maelstroms give 2h weapons the bonuses same as the dw do - the 1pc v 2pc is already factored in.

In fact, as an aside, that basic fact brings in an inherent duplicity from some, not you, on the double bonus side. The arguments often focus on high end dps differences between dw and 2h. They often focus on trials and other competitive group content.

In those cases, reaching that end game play level, maelstrom weapons are used in most dedired build metas.

And maelstrom weapons already factor in 1h v 2h in their effects.

Imbalances in builds using maelstrom wespons wont change if non-maelsttom weapons get dbl bonuses, leaving the ssme high end dps gap.

So thread after thread about the high end dps gap need for dbl set counts - makes one say hmmm....

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2016

No

Bryanonymous wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

sacrifices must be made.

And what might those "sacrifices" be? Please elaborate. Last thread I saw on this, someone proved that DW makes absolutely no sacrifice.

Other than losing out on a huge self heal, out of combat weapon power buff, strong execute and a gap closer, yeah, no sacrifices.

DW is better for straight Damage, 2H is better for utility. Take your pick, but dont act like one is always better than the other. Context matters.

Sigtric · December 2016

No

Yo_Donno wrote: »

Feels like people are just ignoring staves. A lot of Magicka DPS I've seen run dual wield swords on their main damage bar because they get the benefit of the increased damage from the twin blade and blunt passive, and they ALSO get an extra set piece.

For me this would push me away from literally ONLY running a staff on my back bar so I can heavy attack and get magicka back, and doing 90% of my damage with dual wield equipped. Having it count for two set pieces would right and imbalance in the game...

Why should stamina DPS and Tank characters get an extra set piece?

EsoRecon wrote: »

sacrifices must be made.

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I have yet to see the name of one good/well known player say yes to this idea.

Sigtric wrote: »

1 piece of gear = 1 piece of gear

None of these people make compelling arguments against it, so my gut reaction is to assume that they are either simply arguing for the sake of it or are strictly stamina characters and want to keep their massive leg up in both PVP and PVE content.
[snip]

Here you go.

I've spent a lot of time on my magicka DK recently, working on gearing/optimizing
So far I've come up with two builds that work pretty well.
One of them runs 2x 5 piece bonuses by utilizing DW on both my casting bars for the spell damage increase and the extra 5pc bonus.

The other one uses dual destro or destro and resto on bars (depending content), This sacrifices the second 5 piece bonus.
The way I have it set up, I can swap out one piece of gear to switch between which set I want a 5 piece bonus from.

The dual stave build out performs (sustain, raw dps increase) the one with two 5 piece set bonuses in every situation I've tested them in so far. It does not need the second 5 piece bonus at all.

The nature of character building in this game revolves around making choices. You choose what gear. You choose [usually] 12 skills from a pool of hundreds. You build to suit your needs.

If a second 5 piece is that important, people wouldn't be running bow/2h/staff at all and if it is that important to you individually, build for it appropriately.

1 piece of gear = 1 piece of gear

Xvorg · December 2016

Yes

Only staves

Ishammael · December 2016

Yes

About a year ago I would have said no.

Enough has changed both skill wise and gameplay wise to necessitate this change.

Regardless, the destro, resto, and DW skill lines need some work. They are not anywhere close to as versatile as 1h/sh or 2h. (I guess bow probably needs work, too)